View Full Version : Hoppean Monarchism and the Book of Daniel

10-25-13, 07:54 PM

This article appears at lewrockwell.com (http://archive.lewrockwell.com/orig7/bassett3.1.1.html) and is referenced here (http://planetpreterist.com/content/biblical-nature-hoppean-monarchism) and pertains to Monarchies. A most interesting facet of the article is how the quality of metal in the imagery used by Daniel is more pure (gold when dealing with the monarchy) when dealing with monarchies as opposed to when dealing with Imperial (Democratic) Rome (feet made of iron/clay).

The Biblical Nature of Hoppean Monarchism
Hans Hermann Hoppe has been widely recognized for stating the advantages of a traditional monarchy over that of what is essentially mob rule, that is, Democracy. While it is true that Hans Hoppe is not a monarchist but rather an anarcho-capitalist his insights into the frailties and destructive nature of Democracy are thorough and convincing. His brilliant work, Democracy: The God That Failed, is to date probably his best scholarly work on the subject.

However, the very idea of monarchism is completely antithetical to modern sensibilities in the West. This is particularly true in the United States where a traditional European-style monarchy has not existed since the founding of the nation during the late 18th century. Having been founded upon republican principles, supposedly the official gateway to liberty, Americans possess a natural inclination to dismiss the very idea of monarchy out of hand, branding it as being contrary to a liberty-based and economically prosperous civilization. While it is true that monarchies fail to provide the libertarian panacea many naturally crave it is also an intellectual mistake to envision a republican or democratic form of government as the ideal for liberty. Christians, despite their monarchist past, are just as adamant in their protestations toward any form of civilization outside the mainstream view of republicanism and democracy, erroneously viewing it, like their secular counterparts, as the height of human civilization. Is this actually the case however?

Recently, after having read a preterist interpretation of the Book of Daniel something leapt out of the page. There appears to be a biblical basis for the Hoppean thesis of the corrupt nature of Democratic mob rule as opposed to the somewhat lesser tyranny of traditional monarchism. Notice the following excerpt from a discussion regarding the prophesy of the 7th chapter of Daniel:

Daniel seven, like Daniel two, measures the time for Christ’s appearance against world events, placing his kingdom and coming in the days of the forth world empire. Both visions cover precisely the same period and events, but chapter seven provides greater detail. Before looking directly at chapter seven, it will be useful to glace momentarily at chapter two.

The prophecy of chapter two portrays four world empires in the form of a human image or idol; the kingdoms are demarcated by various metals: the first division is a head of gold, the second chest and arms of silver, the third belly and thighs of brass, the fourth legs of iron and feet partly of iron and partly of clay. We are expressly told that the head of gold is Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon. With this piece of information, it is a small matter to trace the successive kingdoms to the time of Christ: 1) Babylon, 2) Mede-Persia, 3) Greece, and 4) Rome.

The declension in the metals seems to point in the first instance to the declining glory of the monarchial power through its division and diffusion in the successive kingdoms. Babylon had a sole monarch, but the Medes-Persian empire had peers to the crown and satraps with almost independent power; the kingdom of the Greeks was divided among Alexander’s generals; and Rome was a Republic ruled by a "senate and people." The Roman Republic ended about 49 B.C. with Julius Caesar’s civil war against the senate and Pompey. Imperial Rome seems to be signified by the images feet and toes, which Daniel describes as "iron mingled with clay." The custom of Babylonians, the Mede-Persians, and Greeks was to allow subject peoples to retain their kings, who swore an oath of fealty to the conquering monarch and paid him tribute. But the Roman practice was direct administration of conquered peoples by presidents and procurators, by which the iron rule of Rome was intermingled with the clay of conquered peoples. The image’s toes almost certainly point to the ten senatorial provinces created by August Caesar in 27 B.C., which became a permanent identifying feature of the Roman Empire from then on. A further interesting fact is that gold is incorruptible, silver slightly less so, but brass and iron are easily corrupted. This may say something about the corruptible nature of popular governments (democracies and republics) over against monarchy and aristocracy. The declining value of the metals seems also to point to the baseness of their rulers: Babylon and the Mede-Persian Empire were friendly to the cause of God and his people: Nebuchadnezzar converted to the true faith and Cyrus and his successors made specific provision for rebuilding Jerusalem and its temple, bearing its cost and those of its sacrifices. But the Greeks and Romans were overtly hostile to the worship of God, boasting Ptolemy Philopater, Antiochus Epiphanes, and Nero Caesar among those who persecuted the faith.

Notice how the Babylonian monarch eventually converted. Traditionally, ancient Babylon and the Mede-Persians allowed their subject peoples to retain their kings, that is, or at least some measure of independence, as opposed to the Romans whose iron fist was given birth by "people's governments" in the form of a Republic or Democracy. This in turn led to not only empire but a desire for absolute world dominance on a [then] global scale. It reminds one of the United States, where it too was founded as a people's government (a republic) which has become so decadent and corrupt that its blatant hypocrisy should probably have become obvious beyond the small multitude of individuals who rightfully recognized it before the advent of the internet.

Granted, my statements are not an endorsement of monarchy per se nor for the ancient kings of the aforementioned kingdoms/empires. However, the Bible does appear to indirectly display the increasingly decadent nature of so-called people's governments wherever they have been implemented. When the European monarchies in Eastern Europe collapsed after the First World War it eventually became obvious how tyrannical in nature the alleged people's governments of National Socialism and Soviet Communism were.

Perhaps the head of gold seen in Daniel's prophetic vision describes why Hoppe's view of a traditional European monarchy is preferable to the unstable and decadent nature of the type of government that forms of the feet of clay, that is, the decadent mob rule of [Republican] Democracy that currently exemplifies the West. In fact, it could be argued that the current moral degradation that the West is experiencing is in fact a byproduct of so-called people's governments.

Worse, whether they be fascist, socialist, republican, or democratic, they are exceedingly difficult to change given that under these so-called people's governments one is more easily labeled a political terrorist for advocating the head of its leader. The latter typically resorts in individuals viewing such an advocate as an "enemy of the people" since the leader was elected by the majority rather than an inheritance by right of birth. Under a monarchy however, since a monarch's realm is privately owned, individuals are not as easily inclined to view a rebellion against said monarch as "unpatriotic" or "terrorist" in nature.

However, since governments in all its forms is always and necessarily tyrannical, might we not give Rothbardian anarchism a chance? Have we not attempted every other form of government with increasingly disastrous results?

[note: please keep in mind that this article is not a discussion on the legitimacy or illegitimacy of preterism per se but rather to display the biblical basis for dispelling the idea of republican or democratic form of government as a panacea for liberty]

May 20, 2011

Now I began to suspect that the framers of the Articles of Confederation and of the State Constitutions may have been aware of this because there is evidence of an element of incorruptible royalty or sovereignty being retained to this very day in America with respect to the USA system --even in Canada.

But in view of the above regarding Rome, consider the following:

5 When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, 6 “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant,[a] ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel[b] have I found such faith.

Perhaps even the centurion was somehow mindful of the upper room. ;)


Also note the difference between possessing the kingdom and being possessed by it!

P.S. Mixing iron and clay would give you steel (http://autocww.colorado.edu/~toldy3/E64ContentFiles/Construction/Ceramics.html) and/or something like industrial ceramics which are partly strong and partly brittle. The less refined steel is, the more brittle it is.

10-25-13, 09:25 PM
Around 15 - 70 AD or so it has been suggested that Rome was divided into ten senatorial provinces which some say correspond to "ten toes". The map shows allegedly the Roman empire around 117 AD not around 1 AD to 70 AD. Another source might suggest the ten (Diadochi) to have been as follows: Italy, Achaia, Asia, Syria, Egypt, Africa, Germany, Spain, Gaul and Britain. Some might even suggest that the ten were only specifically in regard to ten provinces on 'earth' with a meaning from a local perspective.


For any who might be mind-fogged by Cyrus Scofield Kool-Aid, according to Daniel 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+2&version=ESV) (ESV):

4 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold.

Note "in the days of those kings" (does not necessarily say '2,000 years after the days of those kings'). And *ahem* perhaps the temple not made with hands might correspond to the stone that was cut from a mountain by no human hand. :)

Does 2 Corinthians 5 have anything to do with this?

For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1

I imagine that it could be read from a 33 AD perspective.

10-26-13, 12:20 AM
But really was the type of metal intended to correspond to the form of government:

[1] Monarchy - Gold
[2] Monarchy with peers and satraps - silver
[3] Republic - iron
[4] Imperial democracy - iron mixed with clay?

Or was it more to do with the carnality of the peoples at the time and how government was utilized by them?

It might be worth considering that the states of America were internally republican in form come 1776, monarchical before that. The post 1787/1788 Constitution territorial United States of America (not to be confused with the government of the confederacy or of the component states) was more democratic in nature with time especially after Lincoln. It might also be insightful, in view of the above, contrasting the Soviet system with the monarchy under the Romanovs.

10-27-13, 01:59 AM
I perceive that Daniel chapter 2 and 7 are parallel prophecies, and are perhaps best studied together in the context of the Revelation of John, to get the full picture of Bible prophecy.
The USA figures prominently in these prophecies, as does Europe also.
Of course I say this from a historicist point of view:D


To see this picture enlarged, go to Walter Veith's Bible study on this topic:

Nebuchadnezzar's Dream (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_Antichrist_Nebuchadnezzar_statue)

Daniel Prophecies of the antichrist (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_Antichrist_Daniel_Revelation)

Daniel's Four Beasts (http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_Antichrist_Beasts_Daniel)

My Bible tells me that the USA is being transformed into the image of the beast of Revelation 13 at this very time. For a Bible study of how and why this is happening, click here (http://www.reg6.com/).

10-27-13, 02:18 AM
Note sure how the USA would figure directly into the book of Daniel except as gleaning from a prior model and applied abstractly to current or recent events. If the states of America were somehow token of a continuation of a kingdom of the saints that would be thing. As for the post-Daniel 2 & 7 world, the day of Pentecost on 33 AD might be far more significant not to mention events transpiring after 65 A.D. through to 70 A.D.

10-29-13, 01:03 AM
Note sure how the USA would figure directly into the book of Daniel except as gleaning from a prior model and applied abstractly to current or recent events. If the states of America were somehow token of a continuation of a kingdom of the saints that would be thing. As for the post-Daniel 2 & 7 world, the day of Pentecost on 33 AD might be far more significant not to mention events transpiring after 65 A.D. through to 70 A.D.

For the shortest and quickest, yet complete historicist explanation of how the USA figures prominently in the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation click here. (http://www.reg6.com/)

If you want the exhaustive explanation, you can find it here. (http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc.asp#17)

10-29-13, 01:15 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/%D0%94%D0%B2%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D 1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%91%D0%BB_%D0%BD%D0%B0_% D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B5_%D0%A1%D0%BF%D 0%B0%D1%81%D0%BE-%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D 0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D1%81%D0 %BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0.jpg/300px-%D0%94%D0%B2%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D 1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%91%D0%BB_%D0%BD%D0%B0_% D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B5_%D0%A1%D0%BF%D 0%B0%D1%81%D0%BE-%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D 0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D1%81%D0 %BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0.jpg

Two heads.


One head (Coat of Arms of Syria).


One head--U.S. eagle.

The double-headed eagle is a common symbol in heraldry and vexillology. It is most commonly associated with the Byzantine Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Russian Empire and their successor states.

Seems somehow relevant. Byzantine Empire =~ Roman Empire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Imperial_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_Empire_of_Austria_%28 1815%29.svg/220px-Imperial_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_Empire_of_Austria_%28 1815%29.svg.png

Coat of Arms of Austria (Hapsburgs).

Now, could the USA have somehow come under the control of some extension or continuation of the Roman Empire or the Sejuk Turks or ..something?


10-29-13, 01:36 AM
Coat of arms of Turkey. AFAIK, in heraldry that crescent configuration 'exhibits' two horns. Note the inverted pentagram/mullet. In heraldry, the crescent is also symbolic of birth order cadency for the SECOND SON.


10-29-13, 01:50 AM
Around 1066 AD William the Conqueror at England/Britain and the Seljuk Turks at where is called Jerusalem/Judea--about 1,000 years after 70AD.


For more about the Seljuq Turks or the Great Seljuq Empire or the Sultanate of Rum or the Khazar Khaganate click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Turks). For more information on the Ottoman Empire aka Turkish Empire click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_empire). Sparta was known to have a dyarchy (double kingship model). AFAIK, Sparta is no more. Perhaps there is some other system known to have a dyarchy or the like. But is it two horns in secession or two horns at the same time?