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allodial
10-06-15, 04:53 AM
Ownership of Federal Land: Answers Suggested by the Bundy Standoff
Tenth Amendment Center

The Bundy stand-off in Nevada has induced several people to ask me about the extent to which the federal government can own land, at least under the Constitution’s intended meaning. As it happens, in 2005 I studied the issue in depth, and published the following article: Federal Land Retention and the Constitution’s Property Clause: The Original Understanding, 76 U. Colo. L. Rev. 327 (2005).

In a nutshell, here’s what I found:

(1) Most commentators on the issue have staked out one of two polar positions. One position, which is current U.S. Supreme Court doctrine, is that the federal government may acquire and own any land it wishes for any governmental purpose, not just for its enumerated powers. The other polar position is that the federal government may own land only for the purposes enumerated in the Enclave Clause (the national capital and “Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings”) and that the “equal footing doctrine” requires that all other federal land within a prospective state be handed over the state government upon statehood. {The limitations the Federal Government has within the several states might be quite different in its territories or it might be just as well restricted there. The distinction is very important to note.}

(2) In fact, both polar positions are false—and very clearly so. This shines through when you study the Constitution’s text, meaning, and background. By “background,” I mean its drafting history, the ratification debates, 18th century law, and so forth. However the constitutional text alone should be sufficient to cast both polar claims into doubt. The text of the Constitution grants the federal government no plenary power to hold land, only to dispose. A general power to hold is just not in there. The second polar position is also contradicted by the text: The equal footing doctrine is not there either. (It was a feature of certain pre-constitutional documents, such as the Northwest Ordinance.)

(3) The Constitution grants the federal government authority to acquire real estate and other property to carry out any enumerated purpose, either in the exercise of a core power (such as “maintain a Navy”) or through the implied powers memorialized in the Necessary and Proper Clause. Thus, Congress may acquire land to build “post Roads” (limited access highways), house tax collectors, and build lighthouses under the Commerce Power.

(4) Further, the Constitution’s Treaty Power authorizes the federal government to acquire territory.

(5) However, land acquired—through, for example, the Treaty Power—may be held only for enumerated purposes. Land not needed for such purposes must be disposed of within a reasonable time. The federal government should have disposed of BLM grazing land long ago.

(6) In fact, for the federal government to own a large share of American real estate (currently about 28 percent) is directly contrary to certain values the Constitution was designed to further.

(7) “Disposal” does not require handing real estate over to state government. On the contrary, in many situations doing so would conflict with federal officials’ duties of trust. In each instance, disposal should be effectuated so as to further the general welfare. In the case of some parcels, it may mean transferring to state government. But it may also require selling to the highest bidder, or, in the case of environmentally sensitive lands, transferring to perpetual environmental trusts, as is commonly done in England.

(8) The Enclave Clause (Article I, Section 8, Clause 17) is really more about governmental jurisdiction than ownership. The federal government can have an enclave in which much of the territory is titled to private parties—as is true of Washington, D.C. It’s just that in an enclave, federal rather than state jurisdiction is supreme. Enclaves may be held only for enumerated purposes (as signaled by the use of the 18th century legal term “needful”). State consent to creation of an enclave is required, and consent can be conditional upon the federal government honoring particular terms.

(9) The Enclave Clause was sold to the ratifying public on the basis that enclaves would be relatively small. Holding massive tracts of undeveloped land (such as in Yosemite National Park, nearly 750,000 acres) as enclaves is not what the Founders had in mind. {NOTE: Yosemite National Park was established AFTER the Civil War in 1890. Yosemite Valley and osemite Valley and Mariposa Grove went to California under California state law. The powers exercised by United States Government were likely with respect to territorial government.}

(10) This is signaled by the Constitution’s use of the word “Building.” In the 18th century, the term did not have to mean an enclosed space, but it did have to refer to a fabricated construction of some kind, since as a dockyard or (in modern terms) an airport runway.

(11) But not every parcel of federal land need be an enclave: In fact, most are not and should not be. Non-enclave land owned by the federal government is held under the Property Clause (Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2), and should be held only for enumerated purposes. Grazing, for example, is not an enumerated purpose.

(12) Non-enclave federal property within states is subject to state law. Contrary to current Supreme Court doctrine, when the federal government owns non-enclave land, the federal government usually should be treated like any other landowner, so long as the state respects the discharge of legitimate federal functions.

(source/more (http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2014/04/25/ownership-of-federal-land-answers-suggested-by-the-bundy-standoff/))

Related:
Federal Land Retention and the Constitution’s Property Clause: The Original Understanding (http://constitution.i2i.org/files/2010/09/Land.pdf) (PDF document/treatise)

http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2988&d=1444026211

shikamaru
10-10-15, 01:12 PM
Originally, claims to land were ceded to the government of the United States by the several States (13 colonies).

Also, government of the United States was formed, in part, to assume the war debts of the 13 colonies.

The land and claims ceded, supposedly, were held in trust of "The People".

The tyranny of corporations becomes more apparent with each passing day.

allodial
10-10-15, 04:36 PM
Originally, claims to land were ceded to the government of the United States by the several States (13 colonies).

Also, government of the United States was formed, in part, to assume the war debts of the 13 colonies.

The land and claims ceded, supposedly, were held in trust of "The People".

The tyranny of corporations becomes more apparent with each passing day.

They ceded their territories to the confederacy specifically named "The United States of America" ("The" does not operate as 'the' in that context--"The" is part of the name). The Northwest Ordinance and the related series of laws between 1785 and 1788 or so were rules for handling the territories. The non-imperial nature of The United states of America (i.e. the singular confederacy) and of the United states of America (i.e. the several states) seems to be apparent in that all territories were to become states rather than remain territories or possessions. Such may have changed with time and it seems mainly with the Civil War and the assassination of William McKinley (which some suggest to have been a coup). The French ceded the Sovereignty and Domain of Louisiana over to the United States with certain stipulations. In any case, the U.S. government like any trustee would be in breech of trust if it failed to adhere to the implicit or express terms of the trust agreement. In the case of large size of Federal land holdings out West, it might have something to do with the fact those States were formed after the Civil War. If the U.S. was operating only in its "Article I" or "Article II" capacity or capacities only after 1862 perhaps it could only offer limited services after that point like a food shop with certain equipment inoperable?

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Relevance of the Royal Proclamation of 1763 (http://www.ushistory.org/us/9a.asp)to U.S.A. land history.

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Relevance of Treaty of Cession of 1803 (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/louis1.asp) (i.e. Lousiana Purchase) to the U.S.A. land history.


3013
Under the Treaty of 1818 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_1818), this would be a joint British-American area for at least 10 years.


The Treaty of 1818 set the boundary between the United States and British North America along the 49th parallel of north latitude from Minnesota to the "Stony Mountains"[2] (now known as the Rocky Mountains). West of those mountains was known to the Americans as the Oregon Country and to the British as the Columbia Department or Columbia District of the Hudson's Bay Company. (Also included in the region was the southern portion of another fur district, New Caledonia.) The treaty provided for joint control of that land for ten years. Both countries could claim land and both were guaranteed free navigation throughout. Source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Treaty)

Consider land in Alaska as a case in point. Washington and Oregon were part of an area that was a "joint" between the UK or Great Britain and the United States. California (i.e. Alta California or Upper California or even Nueva California) itself was a territory of Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_California_before_1900) at some point before it became under the United States. Maybe the Government of the United States (i.e. the Executive) was able to rename Mt. McKinley because of this.

Keep in mind that the BLM was formed in 1946.

Related:
Our Hidden History of Corporations In the United States
(http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showthread.php?1820-Our-Hidden-History-of-Corporations-in-the-United-States)

Michael Joseph
10-10-15, 06:35 PM
When one looks carefully at the notes in circulation we see in uppercase letters THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. And if one looks even more carefully one will see that Public Trustees have signed the notes.


Treasurer of the United States and Secretary of the Treasury

3016

David Merrill
10-10-15, 08:47 PM
Also, the Approbation to the Declaration of Independence might help explain my heritage as Patroon. And I am not saying that I am special. - Just that by having the genome I seem to have become aware of this earlier than some of the people around me.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OufK0647p1U

David Merrill
10-10-15, 08:49 PM
So who owns the federal land? I do. I created it.

allodial
10-10-15, 08:51 PM
This should shed some light - the US Government is like a church; as in 501(C)(3) as the tax-exempt status is simply that one pays taxes to the government, in the name of the denomination, usually Christianity (Paul's dual citizenship with Rome). This is why tithing to the government through Paul's Roman church (read Pragmatism (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1EaV_bU7VImREN2bDhUb3VyU2M/view?usp=sharing)) can be deducted from income taxes.

You mean, the United States, Washington, D.C. District of Columbia Act of 1871 is a builder's society, a fraternal society (church), an 'incorporated society' or a homeowner's association for those who want to live under the law of the sea (on the Potomac) and in that think, flaky, territorial 'alternate reality' outside of the several states of America? ;)

David Merrill
10-10-15, 09:35 PM
You mean, the United States, Washington, D.C. District of Columbia Act of 1871 is a builder's society, a fraternal society (church), an 'incorporated society' or a homeowner's association for those who want to live under the law of the sea (on the Potomac) and in that think, flaky, territorial 'alternate reality' outside of the several states of America? ;)



Something like that...




3025


3026

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The proceedings went from St. John's Lodge to St. Paul's Cathedral. This definitely smacks of religion in formation. You might find some interesting tidbits in the 1871 municipal actions (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1EaV_bU7VImdmE2UEhfNE41ZzQ/view?usp=sharing).

Better than a zip file - Municipal Act of 1871 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1EaV_bU7VImTVFFSzlnc2NUOTQ/view?usp=sharing) in .pdf.

allodial
10-10-15, 09:40 PM
So Paul has two identities - Roman/Benjamite Jew subject to the government and owing God; and Paul the Son of God with Jesus co-creating... Life or Debt, choose?

Because Paul confessed to being a Roman citizen and was a Judean, Israelite (house of Benjamin--sons of the right hand) member of the Christ's lawful assembly? Makes sense.


The proceedings went from St. John's Lodge to St. Paul's Cathedral. This definitely smacks of religion in formation.

Likely something to do with Scottish Rite Freemasonry ala Albert Pike whose writings reveal him to have been a Roman Catholic yielded to the Bishop of Rome. In order for that kind of liege to cross the sea, Admiralty is required thus the formed their HOA in a city "on the Potomac".


State's interest is $0, in fact No land is associated with this parcel. That is interesting because in I Chronicles chapter 6 we find that the Levite priests have no territorial claim. Their claim is METRO organization; or the cities and their suburbs. ... So let's go one more parcel north showing this parcel is surrounded on three sides by San Isabel National Forest. ... And so let's view the state's interest in the national forest land too: ... And so there you have it. No land is associated with the National Forest.....

No land, because they are on {in rather than upon} the Potomac...in admiralty...underwater cities?

3028
Have we finally found New Atlantis?

David Merrill
10-10-15, 10:06 PM
Nice Find; whatever it is... Atlantis? Might that be COLUMBIAN CODE?


I organized the pages into a .pdf - Municipal Code of 1871 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1EaV_bU7VImTVFFSzlnc2NUOTQ/view?usp=sharing). You deserve it. You have really shared some amazing insight around here over the years!

David Merrill
10-10-15, 10:07 PM
P.S. What might be more interesting yet is that this seems law/God in action rather than the whims of men, regardless of how organized they be.

I heard something weird; - That viewing the Nile Delta as a cerebral cortex one can find a very convincing image of human anatomy. But if you try looking at where the pineal gland is located, that part of the geography is blocked from the general public to view it?

allodial
10-10-15, 10:21 PM
Might that be COLUMBIAN CODE?

3033

I've long wanted to post a youtube link to a scene in the Percy (Perseus son of Poseidon, "god of the sea") Jackson movie series. There is a scene in the second movie where the people associated with the ancient times of Zeus are traveling and happen upon the U.S. Capitol Building and Washington, D.C. and make an immediate connection with....

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(KA/HA/C)OLYMP(B)US(IA)--Olympus (https://web.archive.org/web/20140208012607/http://www.christmasisalie.com/thegrinch.htm#866422538). What a "coincidence" that the capital of Washington state is OLYMPIA. Ultimately Olympus, in the movie, is on the 600th floor of the Empire State Building on Manhattan Island (Dutch-Lenape land). I read "Columbia" (ha'Olympia) as code for "Olympus" or "Olympia" as in "Behold ('ha'), Olympia". Interestingly enough, the 600th floor would definitely be above the high tide mark, wouldn't it?


I organized the pages into a .pdf - Municipal Code of 1871 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1EaV_bU7VImTVFFSzlnc2NUOTQ/view?usp=sharing). You deserve it. You have really shared some amazing insight around here over the years!

Thank you.


P.S. What might be more interesting yet is that this seems law/God in action rather than the whims of men, regardless of how organized they be.

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:18.



I heard something weird; - That viewing the Nile Delta as a cerebral cortex one can find a very convincing image of human anatomy. But if you try looking at where the pineal gland is located, that part of the geography is blocked from the general public to view it?

Goro Adachi's Time Rivers (http://www.goroadachi.com/timerivers/) might be even weirder. However, you might find interest in The Temple In Man (http://www.amazon.com/The-Temple-Man-Architecture-Perfect/dp/0892810211) by R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz .

3031 3032

(Note should read The Temple In Man... "of" is Orwellian "time travel" revision.)

Related:
Percy Jackson’s Manhattan (http://blog.zerve.com/2013/10/11/zerve-book-club-percy-jacksons-manhattan/)
Percy Jackson: Sea of Monsters (Chapter 8 starts with the DC scene)
(http://www.quotev.com/story/5935024/Sequel-The-Hurtful-Truth/8/)

Michael Joseph
10-10-15, 11:16 PM
P.S. What might be more interesting yet is that this seems law/God in action rather than the whims of men, regardless of how organized they be.

I heard something weird; - That viewing the Nile Delta as a cerebral cortex one can find a very convincing image of human anatomy. But if you try looking at where the pineal gland is located, that part of the geography is blocked from the general public to view it?

Danny Wilten has done some fantastic work on this very subject. One such work - Click Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVamFgym9xo)

I love the left brain mathematics/geometry. Especially the use of Metatron's Cube and the correlations to Egypt and Orion. Many refuse to look up even though their Holy Book tells them to do so.

This ties nicely into the Cave of Luz - as well.

David Merrill
10-10-15, 11:34 PM
Thank you MJ;


That would be reference to a book by David Joel BAKST. Rabbi Joel correlates DMT with the Bible parable rather well.

Michael Joseph
10-10-15, 11:49 PM
Thank you MJ;


That would be reference to a book by David Joel BAKST. Rabbi Joel correlates DMT with the Bible parable rather well.

More good stuff (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NKUqqD3Uuk)

allodial
10-10-15, 11:51 PM
Danny Wilten has done some fantastic work on this very subject....

He has quite an interesting series on the Temple of Solomon, etc. Few people realize that the City of David was/is Thebes aka Luxor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk-B0s0jOwE

Nonetheless, the R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz works provide more background than the videos and those books likely are the foundation Danny Wilten and the like stand on.


The Memphis theology is based around Ptah (equivalent to the Greek Hephaistos, the divine blacksmith), (shown above on the left), who himself becomes the primordial fire and gives it substance. This cosmological system was developed at Memphis, when it became the capital city of the kings of Egypt. Ptah is the creator-god of Memphis, and during the long period the city served as the capital of Egypt it was known as Het-ka-Ptah or "House of the Soul of Ptah". Ptah is one of several Egyptian deities attributed with a myth about fashioning creation. Ptah, as the god Ta-tenen (the primordial mound), creates in the so-called "Memphite Theology" the world, its inhabitants, and the kas of the other gods. Reference is again made to the Ennead, this time with Ptah at its head.

(Ptah, Potter, Father)

You see, there is substantial basis for Moses and the Bible being an actual non-allegorical history of a plan to preserve uncorrupted doctrine pertaining to the history and nature of mankind and even more. (Sun worship seems to correlate to the Heliopolis theology (centered around Atum who is seen to be a creator and demiurge) in contrast to the Memphite theology which is centered around Ptah. In Genesis, the stars are created rather than being the Creator.)

If you've ever seen "The Secret", it would be clear that the Babylonia elite made a point to conceal the truth from those they lorded over. The Greek elite similarly avoided teaching their subjects things. Thus begs the question: What is a principality of darkness? Regardless of how the book might be abused, misused or the like, what book other than the Bible consistently and persistently reveals to mankind his nature, origins and powerful effects upon his reality?

Related:
Genesis 1-2 In Light Of Ancient Egyptian Creation Myths (http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showthread.php?1708-Genesis-1-2-In-Light-Of-Ancient-Egyptian-Creation-Myths) (local link)

Michael Joseph
10-11-15, 12:35 AM
Thank you MJ;


That would be reference to a book by David Joel BAKST. Rabbi Joel correlates DMT with the Bible parable rather well.

David Merrill,

Check out this short video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSwGhiKQUVM). Look at the Great Hall. I think this is what David Joel was writing about when he spoke of the "Cave of Luz". And unfortunately many miss the boat when he speaks of "focus on Jerusalem". I don't believe he is speaking of physical city/land. I think he speaks of the "New Jerusalem" which is metaphysical or mystical Jerusalem. That which is represented as the Pine Cone.

For the Holy Spirit baptizes with Fire. And we know that "New Life" comes to the pine forest when the pine cone is set ablaze the seeds [of thought] renew and bring Man into the 7th day or Kether. For the two [Wisdom and Understanding] have become One.

I can't wait to read Dr. Stassman's works.

allodial
10-11-15, 12:42 AM
....DMT .....

Consider for a moment the body, the brain and the Earth experience being a kind of sensory deprivation chamber (for beings capable of awareness across multiple dimensions). When it is necessary for a higher level of awareness to be acquired, perhaps DMT is released as part of allowing the experiential limitation filters to be bypassed. That is, perhaps there is so much information on so many levels, the body and Earth experience is a kind of multi-level and multi-dimensional "sensory deprivation chamber". Proofs of this found in the Ganzfield Experiments which cause the occular systems to CEASE the supression of experiential irrelevant information--just like a sensory deprivation chamber. Perhaps the body and brain are doing the same thing!

http://www.vanallen.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Gulfstream-G650-Flight-Deck.jpg
The body makes one focus in the same way a cockpit makes the pilot focus--minus 500 MPH winds and all kind of noise or freezing temperatures. Binoculars also make one focus (removing all of the other inputs). There is more to life than meets the eye. Taking in the experience of what happens when one of two pilots eject from a fighter plane might help (http://www.vfp62.com/f14_rio.html) with the notion of how the cockpit helps limit information and input and helps a pilot focus. Anti-overload prevention of sensory systems is also found in physics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law) (i.e. inverse square law).


I don't believe he is speaking of physical city/land. I think he speaks of the "New Jerusalem" which is metaphysical or mystical Jerusalem. That which is represented as the Pine Cone.

Well its rather obviated in Ezekiel and in the NT that its not all necessarily about physical land or physically observable kingdoms. It might be that a polity even in Ancient Greece was made up of men not buildings or soil. The tangible systems can be teaching tools to teach about the spiritual by using parallels and allegories. The tangible systems are not necessarily merely allegorical themselves. Even in modern times, there are two distinct types of governments or kingdoms: a territorial system (based on land) and one based on the heart or mind (personal). The U.S. is unabashed about its recognition of personal jurisdiction. In this perspective "playing God" takes a richer meaning.

Even the dances in European and other royal courts are said to have specific meaning. The dance is actually real and tangible in the physical but yet it points to allegory. The dance of history has been much the same.

Unless someone really insists on willfully turning a blind eye to the truth, Freemasonry itself is full of physical representations of intangible concepts. The phallic symbol is tangible it is not allegorical stone, it is real but it symbolizes something. Likewise, rites/rituals are actually physically carried out --even war could be said to be a ritual--even though they might tend to lean to the symbolic. Millions of people act out rites every day (from war to marriage) and somehow we are supposed to think everything in the past to have been merely allegorical. Perplexing.

Perhaps MJ might be interested in R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz's work Symbol and the Symbolic: Ancient Egypt, Science, and the Evolution of Consciousness?

3034 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/089281022X?keywords=schwaller&qid=1444525915)

Michael Joseph
10-11-15, 01:42 AM
Even the dances in European and other royal courts are said to have specific meaning. The dance is actually real and tangible in the physical but yet it points to allegory. The dance of history has been much the same.


Yes, one would have to be ignorant to say that the symbol has not been made in stone; however consider Isis which stands for Spirit. She is looking for a means to impregnate herself - a sad tale indeed. For at once, man has fallen into Carnality which is symbolic of Set killing Osirus. And therefore man has not honored his Father or his Mother. Rather man honors himself in Carnality.

We can see in Isis molding the Phallus - the IDEA of developing a means to bring forth the Divine in Man. The means to birth the man-child [Rev 12]. For at every moment the Dragon [Carnality] stands ready to devour the issue of Spirit. Many externalize the Myth and fail to perceive the truth of the reality within themselves. Nevertheless as above - so below. So I do expect to see the externalization of the mystical in matter because the Mind will make it so.

If the collective consciousness of religion is looking for an all out bloody battle, then that is exactly what they will get. But in reality it does not have to happen. Armageddon happens between the ears at the Battle of the Kings. And then also between the ears - Melchizedek comes forth with Bread and Wine [metaphysically speaking].

I humorously smirk at this verse - Ye shall know them by their fruits. I am looking for that physical fruit but then when I actually spoke that recently to one seeking to get me to come to his church [Kirk], he said the fruit was not literal......He said the fruit symbolized deeds.

I like your use of the dance. So let us learn of Moses, Abraham, Pharaoh, Jesus, etc. So that we each might have Christ formed in us. Or said another way - Melchizedek might come forth at the Battle of the Kings to bring the Bread and the Wine.

Someone here wrote about Creation and Communication. We can do anything as One. The difference is Consciousness. I have experienced my 40 years of Probation [wondering in the desert of my mind]. I have led the "people" and yet we have remained in the desert. It is time to climb the Mountain.

I have sent out plenty of ravens but they never render any fruit. I have set down now upon a high Mountain and I am sending out the dove. I await the Olive Branch.

Consider now "war" symbolizes the internal conflict of thought. The Armageddon in the mind. And we know a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. Thus these that comprehend this mystical stuff, seeking personal carnal gain, seek to keep man in a state of duality.

Consider now for just a moment longer. Is it not transgression to even form a thought about what God is? For at once I have constructed a mental Image. What if I express that thought into matter? Then other men can know of my idolatry. But what other men cannot see is my internal state! I fell into idolatry the moment I began to define God with my thoughts!

george
10-11-15, 03:47 AM
hi everyone,

great topic alodial!

who is the federal government and are they able to bring forth a verifiable claim? (as Karl Lentz points out so well)
only man can bring forth a claim. a corporation is not able to testify. it seems so simple this way!


I fell into idolatry the moment I began to define God with my thoughts!

hmmm, thoughts.. my thoughts? I wonder if there is any "Important Answers About Ownership of Thoughts"? but yeah MJ, that kinda nails it what you wrote there.

thanks

Michael Joseph
10-11-15, 04:42 PM
hi everyone,

great topic alodial!

who is the federal government and are they able to bring forth a verifiable claim? (as Karl Lentz points out so well)
only man can bring forth a claim. a corporation is not able to testify. it seems so simple this way!



hmmm, thoughts.. my thoughts? I wonder if there is any "Important Answers About Ownership of Thoughts"? but yeah MJ, that kinda nails it what you wrote there.

thanks

Hi george,

ownership and citizenship are connected in implied and express trust. Ownership begs possession with begs estate which begs trust. Simply put:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Hopefully one thinks before acting.

David Merrill
10-11-15, 07:31 PM
Hi george,


Hopefully one thinks before acting.


Hopefully one asks for the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God upon waking...


God is Love because the Holy Spirit will always deliver the correct interpretation (out of the infinite sea of information in allegorical metaphor (parable) created by the ego).


Thank you for being there Michael Joseph!

allodial
10-11-15, 09:19 PM
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

And the historical record of the Bible seems to show that when Israelites decided to worship the idols of any given system, they got the whole accompanying system. When they worshipped the golden calf (much like the Hathor one it is suggested), is it all that uncanny to suggest that Moses may have been moved to exercise his authority as an Egyptian governor? If they fell into Babylonian idolatry did they not get subjugated to Bablyon? Could it be that is because all of those systems in some way are designed to discourage man from relying on idol, idle gods?

The related terms that show that the OT was not mere allegory is that the terms conflict of laws and private international law elucidate. Going after other gods gets into the stuff of conflict of laws (https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/conflict_of_laws) (aka private international law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_laws)) which can be a snare.


And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. Genesis 15:12-14


Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph. Exodus 1:8

By selling their brother Joseph into slavery the sons of Israel who perpetrated such committed crimes under their own law and then pushed Joseph under Egyptian law (so he had to walk the line between God of Israel and Egyptian law). Now Egypt may have not been quite corrupted until after the 400 years or so of the Israelites being in Egypt. (Genesis chapters 39 through 50) But nonetheless, the consequence of the famine brought Israelites to deal with the issue of issue of conflict of laws [Have no other gods before me.]


Hopefully one asks for the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God upon waking... God is Love because the Holy Spirit will always deliver the correct interpretation (out of the infinite sea of information in allegorical metaphor (parable) created by the ego).

Definitely edifying. Being led by the Holy Spirit is very important.

allodial
10-11-15, 09:47 PM
I humorously smirk at this verse - Ye shall know them by their fruits. I am looking for that physical fruit but then when I actually spoke that recently to one seeking to get me to come to his church [Kirk], he said the fruit was not literal......He said the fruit symbolized deeds.

The NT actually lists fruits of the Spirit and they aren't necessarily physical objects though they are observable in those who bear such fruits. So its puzzling how anyone who is learned could even be the slightest bit confused. That such fruits aren't consumer merchandise is not kept secret in the Bible. Obviously some things are literal some are not. In the spirit these are literal fruits. Literal is not necessarily synonymous with observable to the physical. Something can be literal in the spirit. And if the man bears the fruits of the Spirit literally then they are of those literally as outlined above. Not all things are allegorical though some things (acts, events, etc.) might point to the symbolic or might be part of a larger allegory-highlighting act or plan. The entire walk of a saint through to victory is an assertion and exercise of truth, a proving of the revelations of truth are in fact true. The walk isn't necessarily allegorical or to be dismissed as non-existant.

I've been probably one of the few if not the only one who saw, thanks be to God of Christ, in the healing of the blind man that the man was actually first made to see in the most important way then had his physical sight restored (sound mind...sound body). In other words that he saw men being like trees walking HE WAS SEEING THE TRUTH.

Many interpret that healing as if the first healing misfired and then it finally "got right"--IMHO there is a huge point that could be missed with such interpretation.


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

David Merrill
10-11-15, 10:52 PM
The NT actually lists fruits of the Spirit and they aren't necessarily physical objects though they are observable in those who bear such fruits. So its puzzling how anyone who is learned could even be the slightest bit confused. That such fruits aren't consumer merchandise is not kept secret in the Bible. Obviously some things are literal some are not. In the spirit these are literal fruits. Literal is not necessarily synonymous with observable to the physical. Something can be literal in the spirit. And if the man bears the fruits of the Spirit literally then they are of those literally as outlined above. Not all things are allegorical though some things (acts, events, etc.) might point to the symbolic or might be part of a larger allegory-highlighting act or plan. The entire walk of a saint through to victory is an assertion and exercise of truth, a proving of the revelations of truth are in fact true. The walk isn't necessarily allegorical or to be dismissed as non-existant.

I've been probably one of the few if not the only one who saw, thanks be to God of Christ, in the healing of the blind man that the man was actually first made to see in the most important way then had his physical sight restored (sound mind...sound body). In other words that he saw men being like trees walking HE WAS SEEING THE TRUTH.

Many interpret that healing as if the first healing misfired and then it finally "got right"--IMHO there is a huge point that could be missed with such interpretation.

Agreed;

I think of it as torroid math. When he saw reality it was like a willow where the spiritual comes back down into the base, like the branches of a weeping willow, to be grounded back through the world experience and then rise again to the spiritual, cycling like a big donut with the sprinkles going out, then up through the hole - then back out...

allodial
10-11-15, 11:10 PM
Agreed;

I think of it as torroid math. When he saw reality it was like a willow where the spiritual comes back down into the base, like the branches of a weeping willow, to be grounded back through the world experience and then rise again to the spiritual, cycling like a big donut with the sprinkles going out, then up through the hole - then back out...

On that same kind of line of thought, the brain and the nervous system (they knew back in the late 1800s or early 1900s that nerve matter was in ALL CELLS of the body). The nervous system is like a branches of roots reaching out as part of facilitating the Earth Experience. The tree although if turned upside down becomes more apparent--or perhaps its more like weeping willow style system where the leaves and branches flow downwards (into the body).

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The nerve fibres of a live brain were traced by diffusion spectrum imaging, and coloured to represent their direction.

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In a traditional sense, the nervous system extensions below the base of the skull might correlate to the roots of the tree that are underground. The brain itself might best correlate to leaves and systems above ground (kind've like a bush). No doubt, you could see how the body could be a type of sensory deprivation chamber or 'focus chamber' for multi-dimensional beings.