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Michael Joseph
03-10-11, 07:01 PM
I express this post not really as a question but more like an exploration into the fundamental understandings of what is man.

I base my discourse fundamentally upon Scripture, and I shall use the King James Version for ease of Reference. Yet I shall endeavor to go deeper into the Hebrew and the Greek where greater formations are required. Also for the purposes of this discourse, the masculine shall at all times also mean the feminine; therefore, man is mankind.

Before proceeding further, I must first provide givens for this discourse. If you do not accept the givens, then we can discuss that too

Given:

1a. The Creator God created all things including Man
1. Man has Intellect - Spirit
2. Man has a Soul - His True Self - Hebrew Nephesh
3. Flesh is not Soul
4. Man's Soul has a temporary residency within Man's Flesh
5. Man looks exactly how he looked in first Age before the Katabole or Destruction [not Noah’s Flood prior to that]


Now, I put forth two questions:

1. Can God die?
2. Can Man die?

-------

Prior to getting into this writing, let us recognize that we live in a real world and there are power centers in this world today and said power centers are used by a few to control the many - referencing the Great Book of Zachariah - we find four horns. Horns symbolize power in Scripture - they are Education, Politics, Finance, and Religion.

Religion is the absolute worst. Because men will bow to just about anything to cling to the idea that This World is not Conclusion (http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/emilydickinson/10453). Therefore one secret of the ages, is to have a secret. I can get men to follow me if I hold out that I have the answer to a great secret. And follow me they will. Just ask the Freemasons. Manly P. Hall wrote extensively on this matter.

The Scripture reflects this matter at the Great Book of Proverbs:


7:6 For at the window of my house I looked through my casement,
7:7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,
7:8 Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house,
7:9 In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night:
7:10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.


What is this subtil of heart and who is this Harlot? She intends to commit adultery - which in Scripture is equated to Idolatry. And what is this Subtil of Heart? She Guards the Secrets. Please prove me wrong.

Therefore, Religion is in this writer’s opinion the most powerful horn of power because it speaks to the Secrets. And the simple ones are content to go and be fed doctrine without any liability assumed on their part. Said another way, they will not go and check behind the teacher in the pulpit to see if they have been misled. Therefore the false shepherd can, with ease, lead the sheep into the ditch and make merchandise of them as the sheep are “willingly” ignorant by their own choosing. This is really just a self fulfilling prophecy in a way; yet, in a way it is not. Because another living soul choose to exercise power and influence over an ignorant easily manipulated people.

Woe to the false shepherd who eats the green of the field and leaves nothing but mud and weeds for the flock. These who would tell the flock that Jesus died for their sins. And, yet will give no further explanation for this claim. Let it be known that this writer firmly believes that Yehovah is One. And that Yehoshua, the Word of God = Yehovah, in the flesh came and offered up his flesh as a Passover sacrifice.


To the false shepherd I say – define “die”. And here is where I have been asked to leave most times. So again, to the gainsayers, I say define “die”. The Word of Truth says that Yehoshua, the Cristos [anointed one] died and rose. So now again to drive my point – define “die”. The competent man asks how can God die? And that question will stump most men. But not this man.


For again, what is man? Is man not Spirit and Soul? And is man actually Flesh or is Flesh just a vessel for man to reside in within this World Age [2nd]. The former heaven and earth Age was destroyed – to the disciplined ones - “Yet I shall not make a full end”….


What is God? We are told – God is Spirit. Ye shall worship me in Spirit and in Truth. Therefore what died on that cross? It was the Flesh body that was sacrificed. Tell me, please with specific reference so that I can verify with my own sources, where do your thoughts reside. Please give me x,y,z and t coordinate frames of reference so that we can measure. I’ll wait.


2nd Peter 3 indicates that Yehoshua went back to the ones held under the Torah to preach the good news – therefore did God die? Yehoshua went across the gulf to speak to those Souls who are “Spiritually Dead”. How was it that God was able to go back and give the good news to those held under Torah. I can already hear the gainsayers, boy this is far out stuff – go to the beginning and see the foundation of this writing.


Therefore God did not die. The Flesh was Sacrificed as Passover – therefore Yehovah comes thru this Age in the Flesh just as God [Elohiym] made each and every one of us do. [Elohiym is plural in Gen 1 = Yehovah and the Angels ; the Angels being you and me]


At Passover the blood was placed on the door and mantle. Just as Noah “pitched” his Ark, I “pitch” my Ark with the “a-tone-ment” or “at-one-ment” with the Ever Living. I claim the Sacrifice and Recognize the offering – I accept the offering – and I get on with my life. Yehovah Saves = Yehoshua. I express my trust by repentance - change in my way - action - Acts 5:29. Your Acts express your Trust.


So, has man died? Not one man has died. Not one. Yet there is but one Son of Perdition already sentenced to death. But even that man has yet to die. Only the Creator can extinguish or blot out of existence.

-----
Tangent:

Abram was traveling South from Shechem to Moreh. On the West was Bethel on the East was Ai.

Shechem - bending of the back
Moreh - [place of] Teaching
Bethel - house of God
Ai - A heap or waste

if you consider the direction of travel...

Bethel would be on his Right and Ai on his left. Since God is Spirit and Spirit goes to Intellect, by analogy, Bethel is on Right side of brain - Spiritual Man
Ai is on left side of brain - Fleshly Man

-----


The Scripture tells us over and over that the Spirit must control the Flesh. Therefore we are not driven by Lust but by Intellect.

Now, consider again, with new eyes, can God die? What is born of God cannot die! Unless God decides to blot it out of existence.

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

ze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Only Yehovah can blot out the Soul. Does not wisdom and intellect and knowledge come from God? Is not Intellect = Spirit?

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

The mystery is that some shall not see death. They enter into the next age and their Soul is not mortal to die; yet some will enter into this coming Age with a Soul that is still mortal to die and subject to be blotted out of existence [die].

Axe
03-10-11, 07:22 PM
Given:

1a. The Creator God created all things including Man
1. Man has Intellect - Spirit
2. Man has a Soul - His True Self - Hebrew Nephesh
3. Flesh is not Soul
4. Man's Soul has a temporary residency within Man's Flesh
5. Man looks exactly how he looked in first Age before the Katabole or Destruction [not Noah’s Flood prior to that]


Greetings MJ -

Question of curiosity; Do you recognize, or make a distinction between
the soul and the spirit?

Tom

Michael Joseph
03-10-11, 07:55 PM
Yes. The Soul is what I like to think of as the "True Me". I maintain that we were all created at the same time therefore we all are the same age in regard to our Souls. Yet we come thru this Age at different times. Therefore in the Age to come we will look youthful as we did in the prime of life.

My Spirit is my intellect.

Tangent: The false shepherds have everyone worrying about the horror of the "end of days" - yet the Scripture I read says he comes in with flattery and shall destroy wonderfully. Peace Peace Peace.

They like to claim - but, but, but the blood is as high as the horses bridle - see, your Scripture says it is going to be mayhem. My response: The Sword without and terror within.....I sing the song of Moses.

The flesh lies on the ground as the Soul "steps out" of the flesh container. And birds of heaven will feast till their hearts delight. Did not Noah send out a Raven. Did it return?

Axe
03-10-11, 08:16 PM
Let me say, I am not being argumentative, rather I very much enjoy discussing God's word
and hearing other interpretations from genuine believers.

So do you believe that the soul or the spirit, or both will experience the second death?

< Hebrews 9:27 >

Based on your answer it sounds as if you are saying the soul is the only thing that lives on.

Thanks,

Tom

Michael Joseph
03-10-11, 08:33 PM
One cannot know his foundation until it is challenged.

some may not see death. Why because they are justified in previous age - or, have received salvation in this Age.

At the shedding of the flesh bodies - the Soul is either not mortal to die or it is mortal to die based on the foregoing. If the latter there is a 1000 year period for teaching and then there is the Final Day before the White Throne.


Therefore ALL Souls shall see the death of the flesh; and, some Souls shall not die due to pre-justification or salvation; and,

Some Souls are now today and at the time of the shedding of the Flesh Spiritually Dead and the latter are now also subject to the 2nd Death. Which is the blotting out of existence....What the false shepherds like to call Hell.

The Spirit is Linked to the Soul. Else the Scripture would be nullified at Exekiel 44:25. Therefore the Soul is with the Intellect [spirit]. The two become one.

But to answer specifically the Soul is NOT the Spirit. These are separate. Yet the Spirit is linked to each Soul.

In terms of what continues and what does not well that is up to the Creator and to us by Choice. We can choose. Therefore, while the Creator can guide his plan, by and thru election - I do not accept that the Creator knows what you are going to Choose. Therefore, I challenge the idea that God is all knowing in regard to his Creation. Else why give man choice? Seems absurd that man would have choice and God would already know the choice and then insert Salvation.

By and thru Election - there is a negative part to Election. Therefore it is not left to man to judge other men in regard to Salvation.

That just does not add up to me. Yet it is left up to the Creator in regard to managing the Souls he created based on the choices they made. All actions are entered [Registered if you like] into the Book. And God decides who shall go to Hell [be blotted out of existence - both Soul and Spirit] and who shall Live on.

Axe
03-10-11, 08:57 PM
Great post MJ,

When I read someone quip about "Can God die", as if they have found the
"gotcha" that shows the inconsistency of the Bible, I see an opportunity to
correct a fundamental lack of understanding.

(I know this isn't what you were doing, I assume you were responding to the question)

The answer is much less dramatic, and in fact elemental.

The Communicatio Idiomatum

Jesus was both God and man, as the Bible clearly states.

Not half God and half man.
Fully God, and fully man.
John 1:1,14

Matt Slick explained it wonderfully;

The Word was joined with humanity (Col. 2:9). Jesus' divine nature was not altered.
Also, Jesus is not merely a man who "had God within Him" nor is he a man who
"manifested the God principle."

He is God in flesh, second person of the Trinity.

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,
sustaining all things by his powerful word," (Heb. 1:3). Jesus' two natures are not
"mixed together," (Eutychianism) nor are they combined into a new God-man nature (Monophysitism).

They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

The following should help you see the two natures of Jesus "in action":

GOD
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33).
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59).
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15).
He knows all things (John 21:17).
He gives eternal life (John 10:28).
All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9).

MAN
He worshiped the Father (John 17).
He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).
He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)
He prayed to the Father (John 17).
He was tempted (Matt. 4:1).
He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).
He died (Rom. 5:8).
He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

(taken from: http://carm.org/jesus-two-natures)

(sorry, I can't seem to get this editor to hold the above table correctly)

We know from the second law of thermodynamics and from Hebrews 9:27 that all "men" must die.

In fact the Bible is perfectly consistent on this.

There are 2 men that in fact never died according to the Bible.

"Inconsistency!" I hear the scoffer say.

To which I can only say, the end has not yet come to pass.

There will in fact be 2 witnesses that will come in the last days,
it is then that they will uphold the true, everliving word of God.

The consistency is perfect, as is the Author.

Kindly,

Tom

Axe
03-10-11, 09:40 PM
The Spirit is Linked to the Soul. Else the Scripture would be nullified at Exekiel 44:25. Therefore the Soul is with the Intellect [spirit]. The two become one.

I would agree.


I do not accept that the Creator knows what you are going to Choose. Therefore, I challenge the idea that God is all knowing in regard to his Creation. Else why give man choice? Seems absurd that man would have choice and God would already know the choice and then insert Salvation.

I believe the Bible IS the word of God, as it is written,
so it is. Therefore I have to disagree here.

God is omniscient (all knowing).
(Psalm 139:2-6; Isaiah 40:13-14)

If He says something that doesn't make sense to me,
it is my ability to understand that is lacking.

Kindly,

Tom

Metheist
03-10-11, 11:12 PM
The answer is much less dramatic, and in fact elemental.

The Communicatio Idiomatum

Jesus was both God and man, as the Bible clearly states.

Not half God and half man.
Fully God, and fully man.
John 1:1,14





So God died on the cross?

Or, at what point did Jesus stop being God, just long enough to die?

Axe
03-11-11, 12:19 AM
Hello Methiest!

It seems through your sarcasm that you are being argumentative, but
it is possible that you didn't read the original post.


What is God? We are told – God is Spirit. Ye shall worship me in Spirit and in Truth. Therefore what died on that cross? It was the Flesh body that was sacrificed. Tell me, please with specific reference so that I can verify with my own sources, where do your thoughts reside. Please give me x,y,z and t coordinate frames of reference so that we can measure. I’ll wait.

The same as anyone that dies, that is not the end of them.

It has been said, we will all live forever, the only question is
where each will spend their eternity.

It seems your issue is that you do not believe there is any
part of us that lives on after we die. If that is your belief,
then of course you will not accept the explanation.

If you do believe that we live on, I don't understand what
you question could be.

You can shout from the rooftop "there is no gravity!"

But the results will be the same when you jump off the roof,
regardless of your "belief".

Kindly,

Tom

Michael Joseph
03-11-11, 01:03 AM
The poet writes:

This World is not Conclusion.
A Species stands beyond --
Invisible, as Music --
But positive, as Sound --


Realize that we live in a world that has been Churched to death. The Preacher standing in his pulpit spouting lies - or at a minimum half truths in ignorance - and competent men laugh when one approaches and says - Jesus Loves You. Well no duh. Time to get off the milk baby. It is time that ye be teachers and here we find those still on the milk. So a competent thinking man discerns the half truth and either is repulsed or tries to see thru the lie.

The nephew of Sigmund Freud laughing at the masses who trust in titles such as Doctor of this or Professor of that. Yet the flock are fleeced by a slick in a fancy robe and a large pulpit - who preaches feel good doctrine without a lick of meat from Scripture. No wonder the intelligent laugh at the Christians. Most who call themselves by that name are so damn ignorant they have not a bit of a clue there are two Jesus'. And most will be as the five virgins found wantiing and without the wedding feast. For they follow flyaway doctrines and gloom and doom end of days doctrines - everything and anything to tickle their ears. To think - well that hurts. Who needs to think when we have pastor.

Fact is the foregoing initial post is my foundational thoughts - I can post and defend that position because it is my position. I care not for this man and that man - that is how we ended up with these re-ligions that plague the world with this trite doctrine and that - remember the five loaves and two fishes - afterwards there were twelve baskets full of fragments - one for each of the twelve tribes. The WASP flies back and forth to the fig tree (smyrna and goat - female and male) and yet that dumb WASP and yes I mean it the way it was intended to mean in this generation - has no clue of what is in the Scripture.

God cannot die. Nor can man absent the express force of God.

How can I be saved asked the Pharisee - Come thru the waters of a woman and be born from the Spirit above. And everyone that is Born of God cannot die and cannot sin. Why? Because it is God that justifieth. And the Word of Truth states that all sin leads to death.

Yet how am I to judge another man. That is the role of God. So I say live and let live. For I cannot save any man - even myself. But I can choose this day the way of life - for me and me only.

So one asks - Can God die? Absurd.

Then another asks can Jesus die? Again, there are those who have no foundational belief that the Scripture is the Word of God. As such, Can God die or Can Jesus die has no value or significance to that one. So be it.

Yet, Yehoshua or Yehovah Saves cannot die just as no man has died. Yet again the Flesh dies. And the Sacrifice was the Flesh. As David my beloved picked up those five smooth stones from the brook - five senses.

And Abraham recognizes that on his left brain is Ai - a waste heap in comparison to the right side of his brain - Bethel - House of God. Where the Spirit man dwells.

And this now goes to Identity. Who are you? The entire foregoing is based in belief - in Faith - in Hope and in Love for my fellow brother not wishing to trespass upon his foundations or oppress him with my doctrine; but to engage in a simple discussion - Can God die. And the answer is emphatically - No.

The Scripture is the basis of this presentment. Therefore, Yehoshua never stopped being God, in Spirit - and the Flesh, the clay, returned to the Earth.

God is Spirit. And Yehoshua is a manifestation of God in Flesh. The Spirit of God within the Flesh vessel.

Yet do not kid yourself. Yehoshua was tempted just like everyman was tempted. And the Sons of Cain by and thru their father Ha Satan - did in fact bruise Yehoshua's heel - Gen 3:15; yet Yehoshua shall bruise Ha Satan's head - blot out of existence - and Yehoshua was not forced to do anything - he allowed it to occur. Even praying that that cup of vengeance not be poured out - but knowing there is no other way - in righteousness. Man has Choice.

Michael Joseph
03-11-11, 05:59 PM
Let me say, I am not being argumentative, rather I very much enjoy discussing God's word
and hearing other interpretations from genuine believers.

So do you believe that the soul or the spirit, or both will experience the second death?

< Hebrews 9:27 >

Based on your answer it sounds as if you are saying the soul is the only thing that lives on.

Thanks,

Tom


Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


It is appointed that men should die in this Age once - there is no RE-incarnation. One trip thru this Flesh Age and then on to paradise. To reside in paradise, yet said paradise is divided into two sections - a gulf - a chasm - that cannot be passed. Luke 16. Also 2nd Esdras. See the so called rich man was on the other side and the gulf could not be passed.

Tell me false ones - where is your Hell. Where is your power now? Hell does not exist and in reality will only exist at the end - and at the end it - for those who can read the greek - it means to be blotted out of existence.

Tangent - what kind of paradise would it be if you could hear and see your relatives and friends - burning and tormented forever and ever. What now of your fear - false ones? Go peddle it somewhere else. Did you catch the blotting out part -

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Here you must go deeper. Hell = Gehenna. And Gehenna is the waste heap and was a place to dispose of waste. Sort of like Ai = waste heap.

The Flesh must become subordinate to the Spirit [intellect].

Axe
03-11-11, 06:34 PM
Hi MJ,

Wow, With all due respect I can't tell if you're hostile or cerebral.

Did you just call me a "false one"?

Never said there was reincarnation.

Speaking of peddling, I'm shocked to
see you peddle the apocrypha, especially
as scripture. What's next, the gnostics?

That explains much.

As far as hell, reasonable men can disagree about what you say.
But that may not bother some who decide to pick and choose
what parts they believe and what parts they don't.

I believe it's as written, take it all, or have none. You can't
have it both ways.

The very example you cite in it's entirety and in context.

Luke 16:19-31

19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (That would be Abraham's Bosom)

24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I think the readers here are smart enough to decide for themselves if your interpretation of the above text
is accurate or not. The text says "Bosom", not "Paradise". "Paradise is specific as it is used by Jesus Himself.

It is clearly hell.

Important to note that this is probably before the redemption, as it takes
place in Abraham's Bosom. Before the redemption sins could just be covered,
not cleansed.

It appears you are not the only one who goes to the original Hebrew and Greek.

If you were not being hostile toward me I'm relieved, if you were,
I tried not to be as rude to you. Now I wonder if your reference in
another post WAS-P was directed at me as well.

No matter, this is a free and open exchange of ideas, which I thought
you invited in the OP.

Have a Great Day.

Michael Joseph
03-11-11, 07:08 PM
I have not directed any of the foregoing upon you Axe/Tom. I in no way was being rude to you or to your belief systems. I do however recognize that there are a great many who, while claiming a certain position [Religion] have zero clue to what they claim. Your views are your own. They are true for you and not me. Just as mine are my own. Yet our Intellect [Spirit] can be shared in a common forum.

So we disagree; great. I can see however, that I touched a nerve with you.

I in no way made any claim or argument against you, in personal capacity. Yet you seem determined to defend yourself. Why?


-----

But since you bring the controversy; lets explore for a moment:

Do you think a Soul has need of water? H2O?
There were no seas in First Age and no Seas in the age to come Third Age.

Did not Yehoshua tell the woman at the well, I will give you water to drink and you shall never thirst again?
Is not the bread and the water symbolic of Truth - God's Word?


Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

-----

Do you presume to be tormented means that he is burning or in extreme physical pain?
Perhaps this is shame? And they shall look up and see the Son of Man coming in the clouds and beg for death - "For Shame, For Shame."

Why would the man ask for a message [truth = water] to be sent to his father and brothers?

Do you suppose that perhaps to "be in Hell" might be a Hebrewism that means to be absent from God?

Yet Yehoshua went to speak to the Prisoners? Where do you suppose they were kept?

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


-----

Will you damn me to Hell if I study the Gnostics or the Apocriphal books like Enoch, Wisdom, Esdras....etc? Or what if I choose not to study the KJV at all? What if I study the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint Text? Does that qualify? Even the KJV - Romans recognizes there are many who have never heard the Word will not be found wanting on Judgment Day based on what their Natural Knowing of what is right or wrong.

-----

But in effort to stay on point - Can God die?

Btw Tom, thank you for engaging this discourse. I can tell you love to study and that is great.

Axe
03-11-11, 10:50 PM
Hello Micheal Joseph!


So we disagree; great. I can see however, that I touched a nerve with you.

A nerve? I wouldn't say that. Maybe it's just the way I reasoned it out. Thank you though for clarifying it to me. It could be that I'm "special needs" in the interpretation of "forum-style" discourse.


I in no way made any claim or argument against you, in personal capacity. Yet you seem determined to defend yourself. Why?

I saw that you had quoted me at the top of your post, (implying to me you were responding to me) and very soon after used some, at least to me, abrasive language and name calling.





Let me say, I am not being argumentative, rather I very much enjoy discussing God's word
and hearing other interpretations from genuine believers.

So do you believe that the soul or the spirit, or both will experience the second death?

< Hebrews 9:27 >

Based on your answer it sounds as if you are saying the soul is the only thing that lives on.

Thanks,

Tom

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


It is appointed that men should die in this Age once - there is no RE-incarnation. One trip thru this Flesh Age and then on to paradise. To reside in paradise, yet said paradise is divided into two sections - a gulf - a chasm - that cannot be passed. Luke 16. Also 2nd Esdras. See the so called rich man was on the other side and the gulf could not be passed.

Tell me false ones - where is your Hell. Where is your power now? Hell does not exist and in reality will only exist at the end - and at the end it - for those who can read the greek - it means to be blotted out of existence.

Tangent - what kind of paradise would it be if you could hear and see your relatives and friends - burning and tormented forever and ever. What now of your fear - false ones? Go peddle it somewhere else. Did you catch the blotting out part -

I am capable of supporting what I say (as are you), and I will. And perhaps I relish a good discussion, especially from an opposing viewpoint a little too much. I believe DM refers to it as an "echo chamber".

My experience had taught me that truth is absolute, and it will stand up against challenge. If it doesn't, it isn't the truth.

It's one thing to say that you've decided what your truth is and hold to it regardless of what evidence and challenge shows (not speaking of you specifically, many people do this). Worse to me would be someone that decided what "their" truth is without ever subjecting it to any scrutiny from any external source.

In my mind that is a sure path to dementia, or becoming a sociopath.

Anyone is capable of seeing something that I have not or realizing something that I may have failed to. I'm eager to hear all points of view in order to continually grow and perhaps find areas where my reason is flawed.

I digress.


But since you bring the controversy; lets explore for a moment:

Do you think a Soul has need of water? H2O?
There were no seas in First Age and no Seas in the age to come Third Age.

No.


Did not Yehoshua tell the woman at the well, I will give you water to drink and you shall never thirst again?
Is not the bread and the water symbolic of Truth - God's Word?

Yes, God's Word, the Living Water.


Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

-----

Do you presume to be tormented means that he is burning or in extreme physical pain?
Perhaps this is shame? And they shall look up and see the Son of Man coming in the clouds and beg for death - "For Shame, For Shame."

Why would the man ask for a message [truth = water] to be sent to his father and brothers?

Do you suppose that perhaps to "be in Hell" might be a Hebrewism that means to be absent from God?

Yet Yehoshua went to speak to the Prisoners? Where do you suppose they were kept?

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

I admit, I do not have an acceptable answer for all of that yet. This has prompted more research. I will get back to you.


Will you damn me to Hell if I study the Gnostics or the Apocriphal books like Enoch, Wisdom, Esdras....etc? Or what if I choose not to study the KJV at all? What if I study the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint Text? Does that qualify? Even the KJV - Romans recognizes there are many who have never heard the Word will not be found wanting on Judgment Day based on what their Natural Knowing of what is right or wrong.

I do not damn anyone to hell, nor does the Lord. People damn themselves.

Based on my current knowledge and understanding of the Holy Scriptures (which do not include Apocriphal books like Enoch, Wisdom, Esdras....etc) I believe that hell was never intended for man, but for fallen angels. Man puts himself where he is.

You read whatever you want. If you believe God is God, then you have to believe that what is represented as His divine word, IS His divine word. I do not believe that God would allow any plot of the devil to corrupt the one and only way man can know the heart of God.

I hear people throw stones like translations corrupted, or the Bible was put together by Constantine so it's not the real canon.

God will use whoever He wants.

The devil is not equal to God. It is not some "battle" between good and evil where two evenly matched opponents fight it out for domination of the human soul.

The devil is a created being, an archangel, under God, in fact used by God for His purpose alone.

God is in control, all is unfolding according to His will. Man's only concern is who will he follow.


But in effort to stay on point - Can God die?

No.


Btw Tom, thank you for engaging this discourse. I can tell you love to study and that is great.

Thank you for your civility and thought provoking questions!

Michael Joseph
03-11-11, 11:45 PM
those questions were actually rhetorical; yet I am glad you responded, Thank you.

If truth is universal then why must we believe? I say I have a Soul; yet I cannot prove it. I say I am; yet I cannot prove my identity tomorrow. One says 2 + 2 is 4; yet in a different frame it is not four 2i + 2j is (8)^1/2. Therefore framing and context must be known specifically in order to determine truth.

If things are universally true; then why cannot I prove the existence of my soul? I have to believe - to have faith. And my Faith is not Universal. It is MY faith. We may share a common faith; yet our truths may not be common, because they may be based on different foundations/contexts/frames.

I want you to know that I truly am not provoking you nor am I aiming my intellect at you. Here's the thing if your foundation is absent challenge how do you know your foundation is sound.

So then regarding the assemblage of books called KJV. Who did that? And why? Constantine with Pope. What, if other peoples were studying other texts they are somehow lacking. KJV is based on the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint Text. And the good ole KJ VERSION is a very good translation - very good. Yet, a student digs a bit deeper.

For instance the Book of Daniel changes from Hebrew to Aramaic and back to Hebrew. There is a reason, yet the KJV readers will Never see it.

The Book of Genesis details the fact that Satan had sex with Chavvah and produced Cain; yet find it in the KJV. The Book of Genesis details the fact that all of the races of mankind were made on the sixth day; yet a special man and his woman were placed in the garden later on - ethhaawdawm and chavvah. Yet find that in the KJV. The book of Genesis details the fact that the time was shortened to five months from seven years; in accord with the Book of Revelation; yet why has this remained a mystery? The Book of Revelation means to reveal or make known, yet I have been met by numerous men of the cloth [whatever that means] who proclaim, you don't have to read Revelation, you are gonna be out of here. To those false ones, I say, Leave me behind. i will stay and work in the field.

All I am saying is when one studies to show himself approved unto God - that one in no way is in need of a Teacher. The taught ones shall teach others. Taking the office of the fisherman. Not seeking to oppress; but to help, if the help is requested. If not, live and let live.

Of course this goes to the three earth and heaven ages and to the elect of God - pre-justification before this age and the Parable of the Fig Tree. Maybe a new thread can be started to discuss those aspects.

------

One aspect of the question can God die goes to what is Flesh? The Flesh was Sacrificed, why is this so hard [not for you Axe] for others to see? What?, they presume the Soul/Spirit died? What in my or there experience would lead them to think the Intellect can die? Of course now we are back to the problem of Soul. I cannot see you Soul. So how on earth will I be able to Identify you.

Yet the critical student already knows the answer - If you have seen the Son you have seen the Father. Which agrees with Gen 1. And Elohiym said let US make man in our Image. I look just the same as I did in first age. In the image of God made he Him. The Son looks like the Father and I look like myself [Soul] in first age.

The question that stretches the tent chords of my mind is: was the Flesh of Yehoshua with a Soul? I ask the Ever Living for grace as I try to unravel that thought. I am in no way attempting to disparage the Scriptures, I like Enoch stand before the Ever Living and say "I want to know". And the Angel told Enoch, because you want to know, I will show you.

Frederick Burrell
03-12-11, 07:26 AM
There is only one thing that won't be forgiven, what is it.

Faith is good but experience surpasses faith. I cannot convince you of who I am but I can encourage you to experience it for yourself. Know thyself and unto thyself be true.

Once you experience Self then the meaning of scripture becomes clear as another is Christed.

I travail in birth pains until Christ be formed in you. Frederick Burrell

Michael Joseph
03-12-11, 12:43 PM
There is only one thing that won't be forgiven, what is it.

Faith is good but experience surpasses faith. I cannot convince you of who I am but I can encourage you to experience it for yourself. Know thyself and unto thyself be true.

Once you experience Self then the meaning of scripture becomes clear as another is Christed.

I travail in birth pains until Christ be formed in you. Frederick Burrell

My Opinion:

not allowing the Holy Spirit to speak at the at the trials - before Fake Jesus and his minions = Unforgivable sin.

only the Elect can commit it.

Thank you for participating on this thread.

David Merrill
03-12-11, 12:54 PM
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.


Not that I would wish imprisonment upon any man;

This passage shows a nearly consistent validation from Inside though. You watch the inmate go to court armed with this passage and when he comes back, he is often acquitted or his case is dismissed.

Axe
03-12-11, 11:40 PM
There is a reason, yet the KJV readers will Never see it.

I hear you say.


I like Enoch stand before the Ever Living and say "I want to know". And the Angel told Enoch, because you want to know, I will show you.

Seems to contradict yourself.

Is not the same revelation available then by your logic available to those readers of the canon?

Truth is truth. How it is revealed to each soul is unique.

My belief is not that one should not read anything else. Rather it is based on an assurance from Him
of Truth. That assurance is only available from one source.

This is not to say that all other sources are false or even unreliable, but when betting eternity with God
on a belief, I will only take as Truth that which was promised by Him.

Original sin permeates the entirety of this world and all in it. This world has a delegated ruler, but he
is not my master. He is the author of confusion and the father of lies. Therefore the "student" takes
a great risk by "accepting for value" anything from the god of this world.

There is only one work that is assured and promised to be free from this corruption.

One does not have to worship Satan to lose eternity with God. One only has to be on ANY OTHER
path than the one God has explicitly set forth.

Truth is universal. One may have to believe for a time, until science is able to show or
explain it. That it can't be proved today, does not mean it won't be proved tomorrow.

The very existence of the Bible codes supports my thesis. Taken from the original Hebrew of the Tora.

Again a simple matter of science not being "up to speed" with what God has already laid forth to
follow.


Satan had sex with Chavvah (Eve) and produced Cain.

Sure it's in there. It's called the serpent seed doctrine and it doesn't hold water.

This doctrine states that the representation of the "tree" is Satan, and Eve "ate of the tree"
being "had sex", and that explains why God speaks to her the way he does when dispensing
the Curse of Adam.

The only problem is that people who believe that leave out the one small peace of text that
tears the whole thing down.


"and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

So... what, after Eve had sex with Satan then Adam did too? C'mon.

The Gnostics should not be studied in the context of Salvation simply because they are inconsistent
and all over the place.

From the book of enoch which you quoted;

The story says that Satan refused to bow to Adam due to pride. Satan said that Adam was
inferior to him as he was made of fire, whereas Adam was made of clay. This refusal led to
the fall of Satan.

Not so surprisingly some of these are clung to by the sons of Ishmael. All go to the overthrow
of God's Holy Mountain, Satan's obsession.

No, I will not consider these with equal weight as the Holy Scriptures if I bother to consider them at all.

"Studying" such things in my opinion does not make one "enlightened", it simply garners more confusion.

Who is the author of confusion? I'll wait.

Not unlike the reason most of us are on this forum.

Through "words" or lack thereof that have imprisoned us where we are today. Who is so cunning to devise
such an empire as this? Only one with the motive, ability and opportunity.

Axe
03-12-11, 11:53 PM
There is only one thing that won't be forgiven, what is it.

Matt. 12:31-32 Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come

Michael Joseph
03-13-11, 12:49 AM
I suppose to each his own. I shall, in the coming days, attempt to address this issue in the Garden, going to the Hebrew and the Greek Texts. However, initially I shall point the student to Gen 5 and ask where is Cain in Eth-ha-aw-dawm's Geneology?

Furtheremore, I shall ask the reader - did Eth-ha-aw-dawm and Chavvah put fig leaves over their mouths or over their groin? And, why in the world - would their be any mention of the womans conception? Yet, i will not just go to the KJV, I will go to the text that that version is based upon and let us decide.

The claim is that the serpent's seed doctrine is false. Let us see.

I agree that all matters must be tested to see if they stand or are found wanting. So let us test this particular matter to see - if Scripture can support the Serpent Seed doctrine or not.

The canonized version asks the question - paraphasing - who shall search the Word of Truth to its depths to reveal its mysteries - Here am I. As are you.

Thank you for engaging. And we shall attempt to discover some of the Truths in Scripture.

Searching for the Truth. (http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showthread.php?22-Contempt&p=358&viewfull=1#post358)

Axe
03-13-11, 01:09 AM
Thank you for engaging. And we shall attempt to discover some of the Truths in Scripture.

Wonderful. I very much look forward to it.

What better way to invest my time.

Axe
03-13-11, 01:21 AM
Searching for the Truth. (http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showthread.php?22-Contempt&p=358&viewfull=1#post358)

Job 40:2 Shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproves God, let him answer it.

Michael Joseph
03-13-11, 05:31 AM
I suppose to each his own. I shall, in the coming days, attempt to address this issue in the Garden, going to the Hebrew and the Greek Texts. However, initially I shall point the student to Gen 5 and ask where is Cain in Eth-ha-aw-dawm's Geneology?

Furtheremore, I shall ask the reader - did Eth-ha-aw-dawm and Chavvah put fig leaves over their mouths or over their groin? And, why in the world - would their be any mention of the womans conception? Yet, i will not just go to the KJV, I will go to the text that that version is based upon and let us decide.

The claim is that the serpent's seed doctrine is false. Let us see.

I agree that all matters must be tested to see if they stand or are found wanting. So let us test this particular matter to see - if Scripture can support the Serpent Seed doctrine or not.

The canonized version asks the question - paraphasing - who shall search the Word of Truth to its depths to reveal its mysteries - Here am I. As are you.

Thank you for engaging. And we shall attempt to discover some of the Truths in Scripture.

Searching for the Truth. (http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showthread.php?22-Contempt&p=358&viewfull=1#post358)

For the edification of the readers find a study regarding the events that took place in the Garden of Eden from God's Word. You may find some of my opinion inserted yet, it was the intention of this Study to lets God's Word speak for itself.

The study is too large to post in text format so I apologize in advance for the use of the Adobe Acrobat digital file.

468




Yehovah be blessed forever and ever.
shalom,
mj

Frederick Burrell
03-13-11, 08:36 AM
You must realize that the living God speaks to us today just as in days gone by, through many forms and guises. It is the purity of the seeker and the willingness to put aside prejudice that one comes to a true understanding of the ways of God. For in God we live move and have our being.

The law is perfect and all fall short of perfection under the law, forgiveness transmutes the law and it is through forgiveness that one enters a state of grace. This is the essence of the life and teachings. Frederick Burrell

Frederick Burrell
03-13-11, 09:42 AM
For the edification of the readers find a study regarding the events that took place in the Garden of Eden from God's Word. You may find some of my opinion inserted yet, it was the intention of this Study to lets God's Word speak for itself.

The study is too large to post in text format so I apologize in advance for the use of the Adobe Acrobat digital file.


Biblical Study of the Events that took place in the Garden of Eden (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CAUBKPLH)



Yehovah be blessed forever and ever.
shalom,
mj

The Garden

You must understand that the garden of eve story is but the turning point of spirits journey into form. In the beginning Adam, based on his awareness after eating of the forbidden fruit, was as an animal, living in harmony with nature, having no awareness of death and not tilling the ground for sustenance. It is only after the fall "quote unquote" that he gains these awarenesses. In the natural order there is no good or bad, and now he has knowledge of this also. I am suggesting it all part of the plan. If so what is the final eventuality of this journey. I might suggest that it is the partaking of our place in the natural order of thing on a conscious level. A realization of the oneness of all life, as an expression of the divine.

Animals exist in harmony, but without choice. We have the choice of return. The conscious choice to live within the laws of the divine because we consciously recognize the path of harmony, and once again residing within the lawful order of the universe out of a realization that it is in our best interest to do the will of the divine. Conscious participation rather than one of thoughtless existence. Words are so inadequate, sorry.

Frederick Burrell.

Michael Joseph
03-13-11, 05:40 PM
Thank you Frederick Burrell: Ha Satan said if you partake of this "Tree" it shall open the eyes. Yet at a deeper level we see it closes the Spiritual eyes and opens the Physical eyes.

The Central Nervous System is the backbone of the body - It allows the Flesh man to know his world. The knowledge of Good and Evil - Tree.

The Spiritual - Bethel/Jacob; the Physical - Ai/Esau


Abram was traveling South from Shechem to Moreh. On the West was Bethel on the East was Ai.

Shechem - bending of the back
Moreh - [place of] Teaching
Bethel - house of God
Ai - A heap or waste

if you consider the direction of travel...

Bethel would be on his Right and Ai on his left. Since God is Spirit and Spirit goes to Intellect, by analogy, Bethel is on Right side of brain - Spiritual Man
Ai is on left side of brain - Fleshly Man


Yet we seek at-one-ment with the Ever Living Self Existing One. Pitching our Ark with the atonement or a-tune-ment. Recognizing the three decks [1st, 2nd, 3rd and a window at the top for the Zadokite Priest]; standing as a Hebrew - Pharoah too - with arms crossed - recognizing it is better to "fish" from the right side of the boat - crossing over as the Flesh man is controlled and the Spiritual man Controls - a true Hebrew.


Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Accepting knowledge in effort to become a Priest before the Ever Living and to pass said knowledge to my Posterity.

However, I reject that Eth-ha-aw-dawm was as an animal. There were other living flesh - races - hunters and fishermen - who went forth and took dominion. What, this one who named the domestic farming animals is now as one of them? I cannot accept that assertion. Furthermore, this is The Man that held the DNA that Messiah sprang forth from. This is the special Man whom Yehovah selected - Talk about Election - for a special purpose - Nehemiah vigorously protecting the seed line - DNA - bloodline:

Neh 13:25 And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves.

Yehovah created animals, plantlife and manking and said it was good. And on the seventh day he rested; and later he made Eth-ha-aw-dawm and put him in the Garden.

I wrote of Satan's first attack on the blood line. There will soon be a second. And I will attempt to address that attack shortly.

Shalom,
mj


P.S. I have heard the fairy tales that Eth-ha-aw-dawm ate some Mushroom - and this somehow connected He and Chavvah to their Flesh Senses. This is such trite non-sense. What of all the men and women created at Gen 1:27? These at 1:27 were without Law given by the Creator. Therefore they are all innocent. In fact, the first law was given to Eth-ha-aw-dawm and to Chavvah. Do not eat or touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yep, I can remember last week talking to an Oak, a Cedar and a Dogwood - funny though they did not talk back. I suppose they lack knowledge.

Yet these other peoples know what is right and wrong by looking at nature. As we can today. And remember Yehoshua went back to the time of Noah to free the prisoners. I wonder why the time of Noah - could it be that is when the Covenant was made and laws were given to Mankind?

Satan wanted his Elect - his Seedline in the World to carry out his Plan - they call it the Great Work. And it shall not stand. Because their one world political system which preaches peace peace peace shall receive a deadly wound to its head - but before that "who shall make war with the beast" - how can one make war with a global political/governmental system that is unified in its effort to obtain peace? Yet, that deadly wound will occur and all out war will ensue. Yet the battle will be set in array; they shall gather around the City - Jerusalem; yet, then, He shall come in Peace and Flattery to seduce even the Elect of Yehovah, if possible.


------

I am for peace; yet it is a means to an end. And why do I need to be confederate with another to achieve peace - what of, oppress no one?


I also reject the notion that the Garden is a turning point of Spirits into form. Clearly Scripture indicates that Eth-ha-aw-dawm was fashioned from the dust of the ground.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

------

So Therefore, I shall ask you to define "Spirits". To help me better "comprehend" your perspective.

Metheist
03-13-11, 06:02 PM
And we shall attempt to discover some of the Truths in Scripture.

Who is with authority to show us the truth in scripture?

Michael Joseph
03-13-11, 06:20 PM
Your question is rigged.

Authority: Comes from Yehovah
To Show: Is rigged - because it can nullify choice.

Yet, I appreciate the way you frame your question as it puts the Response in a Box. This style can be very effective in say cross-examination.

My perspective is I can know God absent a KJV - just by observing nature and by observing other men. Because, if I go to Scripture, I learn Yehovah dwells with Man's Spirit. Therefore we may edify each other Mentally [Spiritually speaking].

So "To Show" I reject. It is the responsibility of each Man[kind]. And that responsibility is a choice.

We shall attempt to discover - is a long way from Authority to Show, wouldn't you say? ROFL....i know you get what I just did.

Please however continue your thought process.

Metheist
03-13-11, 07:08 PM
Your question is rigged.

Unh-huh... :)




Authority: Comes from Yehovah

Is there evidence of this that will withstand the fire of cross-examination? (Ideally, Yehovah on the stand, in his own "person")



To Show: Is rigged - because it can nullify choice.


Is choice important?



Yet, I appreciate the way you frame your question as it puts the Response in a Box. This style can be very effective in say cross-examination.

My perspective is I can know God absent a KJV - just by observing nature and by observing other men. Because, if I go to Scripture, I learn Yehovah dwells with Man's Spirit. Therefore we may edify each other Mentally [Spiritually speaking].

So "To Show" I reject. It is the responsibility of each Man[kind]. And that responsibility is a choice.

We shall attempt to discover - is a long way from Authority to Show, wouldn't you say? ROFL....i know you get what I just did.

Please however continue your thought process.


My thought process is that truth discovers us. And God, if he actually wrote anything, is incompetent for allowing men to control it and use it to manipulate others through said purported writings of "God."

A Control Freak God, who will kill those who oppose him, allowing man to take the purported words of God, and kill in God's name, effectively controlling said words of God, is truly a schizophrenic God (IMO).

But, while I love the contradictions IRL, because they make the cracks easy to see, contradictions in the spirit are most egregious and offensive... ("God" forbid the cracks could be seen in the constructs of religion)

Michael Joseph
03-13-11, 08:13 PM
Freedom goes to choice. So yes, I see choice as important. My understanding is Yehovah on the stand is Nature or the natural world. Men have twisted doctrine to their own ends - myself included - yet some men claim over other men - which oppresses other men.

They claim this Right - under divine Trust - God wills it. I have no trust in Re-ligion. I do however, stay upon two laws which I can see in Nature as well...

Love God and Love Mankind. Therefore it is Love that conquers and the Lusts of Man are diminished and the Spiritual side - Love rises and man sees in other man himself - without need of oppression to gain a purchase on some Claim or Right.

You sound like a man who has been fed an ample amount of bullCRAP and you are tired of it. I too tire of the good pastors. Self serving they are - in my opinion - not all - yet my experience has shown most.

Truth discovers Us. I like that. Is God Truth? I say, yes.

Then God comes to Man and not man to God? Therefore man lacks the capacity to Judge other men, yes? Rather from a universal divine trust man lacks capacity to Judge. Yet from within certain constructs - other Trusts - man gains the capacity to judge based on man's creations and other mans choices.

Yes, I think that fits nicely in the Scriptures. Fact is we cannot get past Origins absent Belief. And I look at Nature and for that matter my Own Body and I see the Spiral, I see Pi, Phi, therefore i see design. And that begs the question, who was the Architect?

Even Evolution is Belief. Evolution does not address Origins. Therefore it has to be taken on Faith. Just ask Hawking - perhaps he can be a 'vane' to show the way. But all of his Mathematics cannot allow him even a glimpse prior to the Singularity of Origins.

The Contempt of Generation and yet it remains - only in Faith - a Belief. And therefore, many conclusions and theories. And, yet a thinking man knows force begs for an a priori action.

I think your so called "Control Freak God" is found in the mouth of the Oppresive Pastor and his passive flock [See Mind Control and A Century of the Self.] You know the one, with the big house and the fancy car. Oh by the way, don't forget to drop some money in the plate....If you don't you know there is that fire and damnation thing....You know Pastor is a Doctor of Divinity. We Trust Pastor - look at his Robe - wow, how could he be wrong?

Given there is One Creator - Self Existing One, then your Creator is my Creator. Should I run and hide or should you? Or perhaps, the good pastors should run and hide. Joking of course, I remain without those vain presentments - ten horses could not drag me back to those buildings on Sunday. I imagine you feel the same way.


Ecc 1:12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.

Ecc 1:16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.

Ecc 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.

Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

----

Of course Thoughts are Things and the Reality we have is the Reality we Choose. God Saves = Yehoshua. now [directed to me] get on with life.

For me, authority is in the Creator. It seems logical. I know the Creator by the name Yehovah. Yet, I cannot prove it. It is a matter of personal Choice and experience, wouldn't you say?

Michael Joseph
03-13-11, 10:56 PM
A poem by Emily Dickinson - Some keep the Sabbath going to Church

Some keep the Sabbath going to Church --
I keep it, staying at Home --
With a Bobolink for a Chorister --
And an Orchard, for a Dome --

Some keep the Sabbath in Surplice --
I just wear my Wings --
And instead of tolling the Bell, for Church,
Our little Sexton -- sings.

God preaches, a noted Clergyman --
And the sermon is never long,
So instead of getting to Heaven, at last --
I'm going, all along.

Treefarmer
03-14-11, 03:35 AM
Who is with authority to show us the truth in scripture?

Who's your daddy?
Whose counsel would you like to receive?

Good question Metheist; I like it.

Michael Joseph
03-14-11, 04:38 PM
I take counsel from the Ever Living, my closest of kin and therefore my Kinsman Redeemer. Yet, I pick up the Trust in the office of the Fisherman; not looking to oppress - only if someone asks.

Thank you Treefarmer.

martin earl
03-15-11, 03:25 AM
The Spirit confirms truth, the Comforter.

As for if God can die. Death should be defined as the separation of the body and the spirit. So God cannot Die, but He clearly has the power to separate His spirit from His physical body, which is what I believe happened while the Body was on the cross, then in the Tomb, but the Spirit continued to 'live' and preach to those who passed before.

The First Resurrection was when the body and the Spirit were united again. This resurrected body is what Mary saw, but could not touch until the assent to the Father. After that, the Apostles were allowed to touch His body and testify to the Resurrection.

Or not?

Michael Joseph
03-17-11, 12:28 AM
martin earl thank you for participating on this thread. Your post is very thought provoking as is the intention of this thread to begin with.

I have taken a couple of days to think about this post before attempting to respond. I think what has been giving me such problems is your use of the word “body”. For the purposes of this post see the following terms and their meanings:

Flesh = vessel that houses the True Self
True Self = Soul
Intellect of True Self = Spirit

Therefore interpreting your issue the separation of the Soul from the Spirit would in fact leave one not knowing anything and is really like erasing a hard drive of sorts because there would be no memory. Yet we are informed at Ezekiel 44:24 that we will be able to know each other in the coming Age therefore if that is the case we will be with memory of this Age. And possibly with memory of the first Age as well.

Eze 44:25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.

Dead how? These are Spiritually dead in the sense that they have not been “born by the Spirit above”.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

G509
an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

Therefore to the Angels – at Gen 6 no salvation is possible. Because they:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

And the 2nd requirement is to be “born of the Spirit above”. A renewing of the mind.

However, we are told that Yehoshua is first fruits from the Dead. Not that he encountered a Spiritual Death. We know he did not encounter a Spiritual Death as he went back to:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

For Man to Preach one would need to be with Intellect [Spirit] and an intellect by itself cannot operate absent a Soul [operator]. But God is Spirit.

Therefore the Death of God is the death of the incarnate Flesh of God – The Flesh was sacrificed. As a Lamb was sacrificed at Passover.

When Yehoshua appeared to the apostles he ate. Isn’t that interesting. Yet why should it be? Manna is angels food and yet it also sustains the flesh. Whether Yehoshua manifested again in the flesh to his apostles or if he manifested as the Angel of Yehovah – I have not yet discerned; yet they saw him and communed with him prior to their commission.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

I contend the Resurrection has to do with the Spirit - being Born “from the Spirit above” – in Yehoshua – God is the Spirit Above. Therefore it is said of Yehoshua he is a Quickening Spirit.

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

G1085
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; “kin” (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.

Offspring here in my opinion should have been “nation” – as in “Spiritual Commonwealth” - this commonwealth knows no bloodlines. Yet bloodlines are important if one is to truly comprehend who is who in scripture – Watchman – Howl O’ Ye Watchman.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

G2227
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
G4151
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Given the foregoing is it possible that God is absent a Soul? Man has a Soul; but is it possible that God is absent a Soul? We read over and over in Old Covenant about the Angel of Yehovah. Might that be the “Presence of Yehovah”? – Yehoshua. Remember Melchizedek met Abraham. King of Righteousness. There is only one. And Abraham tithed to him.

If the foregoing is true then Yehoshua was absent Soul; and was a Quickening Spirit. The first Adam was fashioned from the dust and then Yehovah breathed into him and Adam became a living Soul. Therefore Soul/Spirit are connected in man.


1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

“was made” is added and not in the manuscripts.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The Second “Eth-ha-aw-dawm” is Yehovah from heaven!

And just as Abraham did not grant a “Bill of Divorcement” to Hagar, the bond woman, Yehovah did not grant a bill of divorcement to Torah. Torah shall always be.

Paul knew Torah he was a student of students – he could orally recite the entire Torah which was a prerequisite to attending school under Gamaliel.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Some will be alive when the Soul/Spirit body steps sheds the Flesh Temple.


1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


This corruptible = Flesh [earthly]

Incorruption = Soul/Spirit [Heavenly]

Yet some Living Souls with their intellect, Spirit, are still subject to die – as these are still Dead – remember Ezekiel 44:25? Yet other Souls with their intellect, Spirit, are not subject to death as these have been justified in previous Age.

As such some Souls are still mortal to die at the Last day. And it is only God that can kill the Soul. Remember:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Therefore some Souls shall not see death – because:

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

God is Spirit therefore:

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Yet those who attend to the Mystery Religions like to give Yehovah an Escort – Ashtoreh as she is called in disgust by Yehovah at Jeremiah 44 – The Queen of Heaven – She is also called Ishtar – as in the abomination – Easter.

Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Okay, I am way off on a tangent now. I digress.

Mary could not touch the resurrected body because of Ezekiel 44:25.

Torah is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The sons of Zadok – to Election shall:

Eze 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.


Yehovah be praised forever and ever.

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:


Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Is not God sufficient? All in All?

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Psa 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

Jer 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

Jer 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.


shalom,
mj

Michael Joseph
03-27-11, 12:36 AM
Notice that the Levitical Priests carried the Ark of the Covenant upon their shoulders. What is on your shoulders? Is it your head? Yehoshuah sitting down on the RIGHT side of the Father. Examine your Brain. The Right side controls spiritual or mental processes the Left side controls flesh processes. Yehoshuah told the disciples - fish out of the Right side of the boat.


Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The true Hebrew [Eber] crossing over - overcoming the Flesh Man - and the Spiritual Man controls. The Central Nervous System - remember the Garden - closes the Spiritual Eyes and opens the Physical Eyes. Here is one who has trained his Spiritual Eyes and was given his Physical Eyes:

Mar 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.

Mar 8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

[Wow, look at that. Yet, he is still absent use of his Physical Eyes]

Mar 8:25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

-----

There was one Tree in the Garden walking and talking and engaging as many who would.

His mission to destroy as many "cedars of Lebanon" [Yisra'el] as possible. By flattery people. He comes in with prosperity and wealth - a great revival - Jesus is back....

Do you have the Key of David - Yehoshuah comes out of Nathan - NOT Solomon. But oh how they love to talk about Solomon's Gold and his heirs.

To those, I say "Leave me in the field working - I will gladly be left behind." But alas, I digress as I have wondered into the Parable of the Fig Tree. Maybe we can explore that some as well.

Frederick Burrell
03-27-11, 02:23 AM
I have always read that the right side was the spiritual, intuitive, creative side and the left side was the mental side, home to the ego, but perhaps they have revised their understanding. But some great points in regards the right and left brain and which side of the boat to fish out of . Frederick Burrell

Michael Joseph
03-27-11, 03:08 AM
Thank you Frederick Burrell.

----

The Name of the Ever Living Self Existing One is "Yod He Vav [or Waw] He" - anglosized "Jehovah"; however the "J" is only 550 +/- years old so go figure.

In ancient hebrew before the Paleo - the Yod is thought to be male, the Vav is thought to be female and the He is a ladder. The He-He is a double ladder - DNA.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God? Jachin and Boaz were both exactly 23 cubits tall ==? 23 + 23 = 46 as in chromosomes.

Think the ancients did not know of the body and its chemistry? The outer court is the cell membrane, the inner court is where the nucleus is located and within the inner court is kept the code - Torah - or in man - DNA. The book of the law.

Go now to Genesis 3 and count the number of words that the "Ha Satan" spoke to Eve.....it is 46 as Ha Satan made two attacks on the bloodline of the Adam or in the Hebrew "ethhaawdawm" once by sexual affair with Eve [fathering Cain] and 2nd by Angels see Gen 6 and Enoch 6.

And the Psalmist wrote: They intend to defile my secret place - DNA. Ever hear of "stem cells" - or cloning or Monsanto corrupting the "genes" - DNA?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:

Eze 13:20 Wherefore thus saith Yehovah Elohiym; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Rapture Doctrine is Trite Nonsense. If anyone here wants to pick up that argument - I say bring it on. Lets get it on and lets explore that argument before this assembly.

-----

As above so below as Yehoshuah said in the Great Book of Thomas [the Twin] "the kingdom of heaven is within and without".

You might be as Abram on the plains looking up to the heavens or you might be as Leonardo Da Vinci - who dissected hundreds of bodies to find the secrets within. I am reminded of the man who looks at the pyramid and is asked "what's missing?" Like hundreds of other he says the capstone. Which is only partly correct. As above so below. The complete answer is also the void within for the Kings Chamber. As above so below.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

You know, its interesting, no matter what culture in the world you might encounter, they ALL have the same names for the constellations. It is my contention that Yehovah named the Constellations and gave those names to man. The Magi looking up as Abram for His star that was foretold in Numbers and made known by Daniel.


Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

Judah carries the Sign of Leo - the Lion - the Star coming out of Leo. The Magi reporting "we saw your Star". The plan being written in the Heavens - for signs and seasons.

Sheth is a horrible translation - should be "Confusion or Babel". Who are the Children of Confusion or Babel - the Sons of Cain - Kenites. The offspring of Ha Satan - the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Num 24:21 And he looked on the Kenites, and took up his parable, and said, Strong is thy dwellingplace, and thou puttest thy nest in a rock.

[they run the Religions, Political, Educational, and Commercial powers in this world - go downtown and look up - you will find them at the Top of the big skyscrapers - Yet these pick up the Resulting Trust at Jeremiah 35 - because Yisra'el abandoned the Covenant]

Num 24:22 Nevertheless the Kenite shall be wasted, until Asshur shall carry thee away captive.

Num 24:23 And he took up his parable, and said, Alas, who shall live when God doeth this!

Num 24:24 And ships shall come from the coast of Chittim, and shall afflict Asshur, and shall afflict Eber, and he also shall perish for ever.


Yet the Elect of Yehovah will stand and Bruise the Fake Jesus - these are the Bruisers - the ships of Chittim : and Asshur being a type for [the] in the stead of Christ.

The Kennites are in the game for keeps; they believe their father can win the day. In that day:

Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

[Yisra'el can lay down in peace]

And the Nephilim - the angles who are held in darkness - See Enoch 6, Gen 6, Jude, Peter: shall say:

Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

The Kenites keep the Word of their father and they work to promote the Great Work. The Tares as it were. For they come from the same mother.

Isa 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

Thus sayeth Yehovah Sabaoth: the Kennite shall be utterly spoiled.

[For they are as parasites to Judah. They moved in with Judah and claim to be of Judah but they do lie. And Yehoshuah was well pleased with those who teach the truth concerning the house of the Kenite.]

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Frederick Burrell
03-27-11, 05:19 AM
"Rapture Doctrine is Trite Nonsense. If anyone here wants to pick up that argument - I say bring it on. Lets get it on and lets explore that argument before this assembly" Michael Joseph

You will get no argument from me.....

But I feel that just as there has been a time of forgetfulness there will be a time of remembering. RE-Activation of our DNA. Your Thought Joseph Michael would be most welcome. Frederick Burrell

Michael Joseph
03-27-11, 02:19 PM
"Rapture Doctrine is Trite Nonsense. If anyone here wants to pick up that argument - I say bring it on. Lets get it on and lets explore that argument before this assembly" Michael Joseph

You will get no argument from me.....

But I feel that just as there has been a time of forgetfulness there will be a time of remembering. RE-Activation of our DNA. Your Thought Joseph Michael would be most welcome. Frederick Burrell

Thank you Frederick Burrell. Please elaborate. Do you want to discuss vibrations/frequencies in regard to DNA or do you want to delve into the fallacy of Rapture Doctrine?

Granted this discussion has as its basis the Masoretic and the Septuagint Texts. Should you desire we can go into Quantum Mechanics and explore dimensions in relation to frequency. Yet, I think if you want to discuss Quantum Physics and God then we will need to start a new thread.

Thank you for engaging.

Shalom,
mj

Axe
03-28-11, 03:38 AM
Hey everybody,

MJ, I find your assertions stimulating, and I have no desire to "force my point of view" onto you or anyone else I do find it necessary to refute some of what you say. Not for the purpose of "arguing", but because I feel that those reading this in the future may be influenced, I believe incorrectly.

I'm surprised at how far you have to reach in order to make your case for the serpent seed doctrine. I like to keep it simple. Maybe that makes me simple minded, maybe not. I believe the truth is always simple.

It is the enemy of truth that must be complicated. First, I want to talk about "context". Specifically "proximity context". When interpreting the Holy Scriptures it's everything. It simply means that one has to consider the immediate proximity of language around whatever is in question.

This will always take precedence over any implied meanings taken from further away.

The word "tree" is used similarly throughout the chapter in question. The Hebrew as well. The tree of life: The tree of knowledge of good and evil.

You can't have it both ways. Either both were really trees, or both were really something else. And don't forget about all the other "trees" in the garden.

There is only one logical answer.

And there were no other "people" as you assert in the garden or in creation.

Male and Female He created them. Them is plural because that is the correct vernacular when talking about "male and female", not, I believe because there were "others" apart from Adam and Eve. Again, context.

And there is a bloodline for Cain; Gen 4:17. And the answer to your direct question is right there in Gen 4:1. Adam is his father. Nuff said about that.

I could go on and on, but I found a great piece which I will paste below. Mostly because I don't want to plagiarize the guy, even by accident.

--

Two additional distinguishing and erroneous doctrines of the Shepherd's Chapel are known as the Serpent Seed doctrine and the Kenite doctrine. The two are intimately related. The Serpent Seed doctrine is the teaching that in the Garden of Eden, the serpent (the devil) had sexual relations with Eve. The result was that she bore Cain. The descendents of Cain are called Kenites. Abel, however, is the result of Adam and Eve having relations.

Arnold Murray, the pastor of the Shepherd's Chapel, is the primary advocate of these doctrines which he adamantly teaches and which his followers have adopted as biblical truth. Mr. Murray states,

"When you look for the in-depth meaning of "men as trees, walking", you are able to see that Christ wants us to understand there are plantings of God and plantings of the devil. The plantings of that wicked one began in the garden of Eden with the conception of Cain and follow down through his progeny, the Kenites."
(Newsletter #195, Jan 1995. See also, #202, August 1995).

The Kenites, according to Mr. Murray, must be exposed. "We must continue to teach who the Kenites are," says Mr. Murray, (Newsletter #190, August 1994). He states that the Kenites survived the flood (he denies the global flood) and are found in the lineage of Israel, not Judah, (Newsletter #179, Sept. 1993). Eventually, the Kenites permeated the nation of Israel and are the ones who shouted "Crucify Him," in reference to Jesus, (Newsletter #179, Sept. 1993).

In an attempt at biblical support, on his website at Answers to Critics, Mr. Murray states:

"In Gen. 3:15 God is speaking to the serpent, 'and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise his heel.'"

Mr. Murray infers that when God says "thy seed" to Satan, He is referring to the Kenites, the descendents of Cain which were produced through the literal "seed" of Satan.

Mr. Murray is wrong. We do not really know exactly what form Satan was in the Garden, though I will submit to God's word and affirm it was a serpent of some sort. Now the Hebrew word used there is "nachash" and it means "serpent" or "snake." If we take the word literally as snake, then Mr. Murray would be forced to explain how a literal snake could have sexual intercourse with Eve.

If Mr. Murray were to acknowledge the potential of a figurative usage of the term here, then he needs to explain why the term "serpent" would be figurative and the term "seed" would be literal. Furthermore, if the serpent were Satan in a different form, and Eve spoke to the serpent, then did Eve have sex with a snake or with a different form of the snake; that is, did the snake change into another more apropos form to consummate his deception?

If so, wouldn't Eve have been suspicious of a talking snake that changes form into something else with which she then agrees to have sexual intercourse? As you can see, the issue, from Mr. Murray's perspective, is wrought with problems.

Nevertheless, his entire position on the Serpent Seed doctrine is easily refuted when we examine Gen. 4:1:

"Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, 'I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.'"

We can see that the Bible clearly tells us who the Father of Cain is: Adam. The Serpent Seed idea is proven wrong.

In addition, it is more natural to attribute the term "seed" in Gen. 3:15 as a reference to the spiritual decedents of Satan, not his literal ones. We can see that being a true spiritual descendent is by faith, not by biology. Consider the following verses which speak of spiritual identification.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God," (Rom. 2:28-29).

"For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God," (Rom. 8:14).

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him," (Rom. 8:16-17).

"That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants," (Rom. 9:8).

Clearly, being a descendent has a spiritual quality. Likewise, Satan's descendents are those who identify with him in his lies. This is why Jesus said in John 8:44 to the Pharisees,

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies."

In addition, "seed" is also referred to as the word of God (Matt. 13:18-23; Luke 8:11; 1 Pet. 1:23) and as the spiritual life in (1 John 3:9). The whole flavor of spiritual identification with God is included in terms of being the offspring of God (Gal. 3:29; Acts 17:28) and the children of God (Rom. 8:16-17).

Consider 1 John 3:9 which says, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Obviously, the Christian does not contain the literal seed of God in him. Seed here, must refer to a spiritual element of indwelling, of ideology, and of faith.

That is why the Christian does not practice sin. It is against his beliefs and confession before God and man. Therefore, God's seed abides in the Christian, but it isn't literal seed, it is a reference to spiritual identification.
Us against Them

The Serpent Seed doctrine is an unscriptural and unfortunate teaching. From it is derived an "us against them" mentality in which anyone who disagrees with Mr. Murray can easily be accused of being a Kenite. This is obvious in some of his quotes:

"How many today are teaching from a quarterly written by a Kenite, rather than teaching from God's Word? (Newsletter #193, Nov. 1994).

How can we sum this up? If you are doing God's will, don't worry about criticism from others. "Well, Pastor Murray they say we are a cult." Who cares what they say? God is on our side. Victory is a certainty. Does it ever seem like the enemy is winning?

Anytime you get to feeling this way, turn to Psalms 9. This Psalm tells us what we should be earnestly expecting. Keep the meaning of "apokaradokia" in mind as we read this Psalm. (Newsletter #229 - November 1997).

Of course, if you study with him you are not being deceived, but if you are studying elsewhere, you're studying with a Kenite or siding with the enemy. Such are the machinations of this leader who teaches false doctrines.

Taken from: http://carm.org/serpent-seed-and-kenites

--

Thank you for starting this thread. The discussion is welcome and has prompted me to increase the volume of my own study as well.

Kindly,

T.

Axe
03-28-11, 03:45 AM
Oh and more on the "people before Adam and Eve" thing:

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:45, “And so it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being.’” This passage very clearly affirms that Adam was “the first man.” Physically, he was the father of all living, just as, spiritually, Christ, “the last Adam,” is the originator of our spiritual lives (15:45-49).

Another New Testament passage also supports this proposition. In Acts 17:24-26 Paul says to the Athenians, “God, who made the world and everything in it...has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth…” If God, in the beginning, had created other humans besides just Adam and Eve then Paul’s statement would be incorrect. Indeed, we would be descendants not of “one blood” but of “many bloods.” Yet, that was not what Paul believed or taught to the Corinthians or Athenians.

Great article here: http://www.kokomochurch.com/Study%20the%20Bible/Articles/Questions%20and%20Answers/WereOtherHumansCreated.htm

Kindly,

T.

Frederick Burrell
03-28-11, 09:51 AM
Thank you Frederick Burrell. Please elaborate. Do you want to discuss vibrations/frequencies in regard to DNA or do you want to delve into the fallacy of Rapture Doctrine?

Granted this discussion has as its basis the Masoretic and the Septuagint Texts. Should you desire we can go into Quantum Mechanics and explore dimensions in relation to frequency. Yet, I think if you want to discuss Quantum Physics and God then we will need to start a new thread.

Thank you for engaging.

Shalom,
mj

Yes perhaps another thread would be appropriate. I was thinking more along the lines of energies coming into the planets and how it effects our DNA and consciousness. But perhaps another time or should I say thread. I thought is relative in regards to the conversation in regards to rapture. frederick burrell

Michael Joseph
03-28-11, 03:19 PM
Oh and more on the "people before Adam and Eve" thing:

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:45, “And so it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being.’” This passage very clearly affirms that Adam was “the first man.” Physically, he was the father of all living, just as, spiritually, Christ, “the last Adam,” is the originator of our spiritual lives (15:45-49).

Another New Testament passage also supports this proposition. In Acts 17:24-26 Paul says to the Athenians, “God, who made the world and everything in it...has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth…” If God, in the beginning, had created other humans besides just Adam and Eve then Paul’s statement would be incorrect. Indeed, we would be descendants not of “one blood” but of “many bloods.” Yet, that was not what Paul believed or taught to the Corinthians or Athenians.

Great article here: http://www.kokomochurch.com/Study%20the%20Bible/Articles/Questions%20and%20Answers/WereOtherHumansCreated.htm

Kindly,

T.

Regarding your latter post, Paul writes the First "Eth-ha-aw-dawm" - man in Garden. Remember there are two.

-----

Dear reader, take a very close look at the study provided, go to the Hebrew provided - Eth-ha-aw-dawm is different. The English has been twisted to confuse . Eth-ha-aw-dawm is emphatically THE MAN - why is this so hard for people to see? Why do you think Nehemiah was Furious when Yisra'el started mixing [inbreeding] with other races? The Bloodline to Yehoshuah had to be PURE. That's why. Why do you think it took Noah 500 years to find a wife? Because he was faithful to find one who was from Eth-ha-aw-dawm's loins - undefiled by other races and Angelic DNA. Well now, dear reader, if we all sprang from one man - why in the heck would it matter in regard to blood-lines? This is so obvious it strains my mind to even write these words. But for some reason men are content with their traditions.

And the Scripture is about One Man - Yehoshuah - and it is His-Story. Yehovah Saves.

-----

Remember at Gen 1:27 - He created Him in his own image. Yehovah made Yehoshuah in his own image - If you have seen the Son you have seen the Father.

The Cut/Paste from the internet does not get it with me. Gen 4:1 also in no way is Eth-ha-aw-dawm's geneology.

Clearly a student/scholar of Scripture does not REACH - a Scholar presents many, many examples in Yehovah's Word - I just picked a Sampling of Many verses that support the assertion. I could have picked many, many more.

I leave it to the reader to make up their own mind. After reading this so called Christian site - I too deny a world wide flood as it does not conform with the rest of the Story.

I think the study attached speaks for itself.

187

However should you decide to produce a Study of your own that can actually support your claims, I for one shall be glad to entertain it.


Axe: I know you have good intentions in joining this discussion; however consider the "one blood" is NOT of Eth-ha-aw-dawm: It is of Yehoshuah - the Blood of Atonement - so that all nations can enjoin in the Commonwealth of Yisra'el. He told Peter: Slay and eat - Call no man Common.

[B]G129
αἷμα
aima
hah'ee-mah
Of uncertain derivation; blood, literally (of men or animals), figuratively (the juice of grapes) or specifically (the atoning blood of Christ); by implication bloodshed, also kindred: - blood.


Going to Scripture so that the Reader will not be confused by Claims:

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.


If your assertion is correct then we should live in Eth-ha-aw-dawm [the first Adam] for we are his offspring. How absurdly ridiculous. We are to live move and have our being in Yehoshuah - the Second Eth-ha-aw-dawm [Adam].

I think the readers can see thru this smoke an mirror job from some group called CARM. After checking up this morning on this Murray guy he seems okay with me - but why should that matter - my opinion does not mean a hill of beans - what matters is the opinion of the dear reader.

If you are one who is swayed by Titles such as Pastor or Doctor and you put your trust in man's titles in stead of doing the work yourself in the Word, then you like all of the other good little fishies, may be found wanting like the five virgins Matthew 25. The Son's of Cain are upon the Great Work they do intend to "Slay the good llittle Christian fishies - as many as they can - spiritually murdering them with 1/2 truths and false doctrine - do your own work and build your own foundation on the Rock. And in fact it is Ephraim himself a symbolic name for the ten tribes who delivers his children up freely to the slayer.

Hos 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.


Murderer of Souls. Be careful dear reader where you find your information. If you cannot support your doctrine in multiple places in Yehovah's word, then it is false.

Again, I leave it to the reader to decide.

-------

Michael Joseph
03-28-11, 03:21 PM
Yes perhaps another thread would be appropriate. I was thinking more along the lines of energies coming into the planets and how it effects our DNA and consciousness. But perhaps another time or should I say thread. I thought is relative in regards to the conversation in regards to rapture. frederick burrell

Perhaps you can express another thread and we can engage that discussion there?

Treefarmer
03-28-11, 04:51 PM
Michael Joseph, the Bible uniformly spells Adam as Adam, and not "Eth-ha-aw-dawm" or other such names, because the Masoretic text uniformly spells Adam as אָדָם
When you see other constructions, such as וְהָאָדָם in Genesis 4:1, it is because of Hebrew grammatical construction, meaning "And Adam".
The first word of Genesis 3:17 for example is וּלְאָדָם which is correctly translated "And unto Adam".

There is only one Adam, the first man, who had children with his wife Eve (Chavvah), who was flesh of his flesh and who "was the mother of all living" (Gen. 3:20). All means all.

Also, nowhere does the Bible say that angels or cherubim (such as Satan) have the ability to procreate sexually, even though angels sometimes appear in the form of men. Jesus makes this clear in Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25.

Trees are indeed likened to people and people to trees in the Bible.
Several parables include trees that talk like people. But these are just parables and they do not teach that trees are people, or that angels are trees.
The blind man in Mark 8 said "I see men as trees, walking". Notice the word is "as" and not "are".

As far as the Kenites go, if you study carefully, you will find that they are mostly comprised of inhabitants of Canaan who trace their ancestry to Abraham and Judah.
The designation Kenite is equivalent to the contemporary European/American surname Smith in English, and Schmidt and its derivations in German.
I'll post a study on this soon in the blog space.

The Kenites are all of the offspring of Noah and family, who were the only survivors of the world wide flood.
God tells us in Genesis 6:17: "And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life, from under heaven; [and] every thing that [is] in the earth shall die."
In Genesis 9:11 God says: "And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth."
See also Genesis 9:15.
Here the word all means all, save the ones in the ark which were saved by a miracle from God.
Luke 17:27 also affirms this.

When interpreting scriptures, keep in mind what Peter says in 2 Peter 1:
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost."

And Isaiah tells us in chapter 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them."

Let's heed this admonition:
"I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."
2 Timothy 4:1-5

Bright blessings

motla68
03-28-11, 05:23 PM
We do not have to become it, just understand the vibrations of history that keep repeating itself through the symbolisms/instruments upon this earth all around us.

Currents --> Currency / Ark of Noah --> Treasury . Do you really believe at the time of the flood in that ark anyone was concerned about money?
all them animals and that ark was just an equitable interest to be protected. Would a man sacrifice his time to protect his neighbors by a calling from a spirit?

Axe
03-28-11, 10:28 PM
However should you decide to produce a Study of your own that can actually support your claims, I for one shall be glad to entertain it.

Wow.

You can say all you want. You can even try to diminish what I bring forth because I post a link.

I can only take that to mean that all of your assertions are completely your own and have come from
no other reading or authors.

I'm not interested in making anyone believe that I am a mental titan, I only want to get the information
to the end user expediently. And as for "entertaining" you, that is not my concern. My concern is correcting
false doctrine that has the potential to lead many astray.

For all those "words" you post, you fail to overcome what to me seems a potent rebuttal to your whole assertion.

Why are the "trees" in the garden not all the same? Same word. Tree of life, tree of knowledge of good and evil,
and all the other "trees" in the garden. There is no need to go to Isa, or Ezk when there is plenty of "context" within
the same chapter, even the same verse!. A "scholar" it seems to me would know that.

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

You ignore the context and go off on your expedition into confusion. There is no need. As you pointed out before,
the truth is there for all to see if they will but ask. No "scholarship" required.

There is another throughout history that does the same thing. I believe his first words in the Bible were:
"Has God indeed said..."

What was he doing? Taking what was clear cut, and twisting it. Promising more. Taking what was simple
and making it complex, confusing and casting doubt.

Your command of certain subjects is fantastic, however, bringing convoluted interpretations of God's Holy Word
from sources other than God's Holy Word is I believe a grave mistake.

I find you quoting gnostics alongside the Bible repugnant. You may as well offer the latest revelation you received from
Mad Magazine as well. That alone casts a stain on whatever assertion you bring forth, making you one of the, what I believe
Lenin called "useful idiots". Regardless of your "scholar" status or educational pedigree.

The there is the fact the Adam also "ate" of the fruit. So now following your interpretation, the first man was also
a homosexual.

Bloodline is important, as it is stated, "the Seed of David" many times.


If your assertion is correct then we should live in Eth-ha-aw-dawm [the first Adam] for we are his offspring. How absurdly ridiculous. We are to live move and have our being in Yehoshuah - the Second Eth-ha-aw-dawm [Adam].

Ridiculous indeed. We are all sons of Adam, which is why we are all under the curse of Adam. We are also called sons of Abraham, as well as sons of God. One refers to physical bloodline, the other to the spiritual. Even "scholars" agree on this.

I do not consider, or call myself a "scholar", I am a student, a sinner saved by grace and the blood of Jesus. Nothing more.


Clearly a student/scholar of Scripture does not REACH - a Scholar presents many, many examples in Yehovah's Word - I just picked a Sampling of Many verses that support the assertion. I could have picked many, many more.

Uuhhh, sure, but it's easy to take an isolated verse and twist it to mean whatever you want it to.
Happens all the time, pastors and frauds alike. That's why "context" is king when it comes to interpretation.

Context requires what is said immediately before and immediately after said verse to be considered first and
with the most weight. Any Bible college student learns that the first day.

Another important rule is to always search your reasoning for putting ANY assertion forward. Is it for your glory,
or for His. You can pray for "enlightenment" all you want, if you intentions are self aggrandizement they will go
unheard.

I want to believe that you are a genuine follower of Jesus, but some of things you say hit my "tuning fork" wrong.
To borrow a David Merrill term there.

You blatantly and broadly attack "pastors" and "churches" in sometimes a savage way. Casting sweeping dispersions
on the whole lot. Honestly, I don't disagree on some points as I know they are out there, but I also know that there
are some that are not.

Regardless, even many of those that have the message wrong, mean well. But your diatribes leave no room for them.
Someone that has been given a gift such as the one you seem to have also has a responsibility (I feel) to help.

I don't believe the Lord grants ANYONE knowledge, wisdom or understanding for their edification alone. Rather than
throwing stones at those that may lack understanding but may mean well, would it not be more "Jesus-like" to
have sympathy?

My observations may be incorrect and if I have cast you in an incorrect light I apologize. Rather than banter
back and forth, I will list them plainly. This is not to personally attack you, rather it is, and should only be taken
in the context of this thread alone.

Your heart does not seem to be in the right place.

You quote works that are direct contradiction with the Word of God.

Your assertions are not easy to understand or even follow, and don't stand up to analysis from the immediate context from which they come from.


If you are one who is swayed by Titles such as Pastor or Doctor and you put your trust in man's titles in stead of doing the work yourself in the Word, then you like all of the other good little fishies, may be found wanting like the five virgins Matthew 25.

It seems to me again that you more swayed than me. I don't consider the titles at all. They are but men,
like you and I. Some seeking truth, like you and I. You seem to disregard automatically based on the title.

I believe these men have just as much access to the truth as you or I. Some pursue it diligently.

I will say that someone that has devoted their life's work to the edification of the saints in Jesus name
has his heart in the right place, and far be it from me to think that I am "better" or "more enlightened"
or have "more access to insight or wisdom" than he, because of his title.

The "cut and paste from the internet" that you place yourself above in tone, comes from a man. Someone
that has studied and come to his own conclusions, as have you. I placed it there not because of the
organization he represents, but because of the truth he has found.

You also imply that means I'm incapable of forming my own thesis. Again, not very Christian. It happens that
I lack the time which you seem to have an abundance of. If you say you have never plagiarized someone else
in your posts, I'll accept that for value. You are a better man than me, but then that's not a very high standard :-)



When interpreting scriptures, keep in mind what Peter says in 2 Peter 1:
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost."

And Isaiah tells us in chapter 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them."

Let's heed this admonition:
"I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."
2 Timothy 4:1-5

Thanks for that TreeFarmer. Poignant indeed.

Axe
03-28-11, 10:33 PM
I do know there are good men of God, working as "men of God".

I don't think that churches should be 503c. That places them under the wrong master. Forbidden.

I don't think that pastors should give "messages" in their churches. This opens the door to taking any verse out of context, and making it mean whatever they want. Which is usually not what God meant in his word. Pastors should read The Word. They should teach about translation, interpretation and context.

I think that the gate is narrower than anyone realizes.

I don't agree that "going to church" saves anybody, but... I do believe that a true believer understands that going to church is not necessarily for them. I think that people who are mature in their faith have an obligation to to church for the edification of others.

I grew tired of going to church. My church was a chapter by chapter, verse by verse church. After I had been a believer for while, been on fire, got super involved, volunteered, read the whole Bible, attended Bible college ( 1 semester, didn't graduate), I grew weary knowing what was going to be covered at church every Wed. and Sun.

I started to get annoyed with more and more people at church. Only seeing everyone's faults. I got a negative attitude and stopped going.

I felt better, but something wouldn't stop bothering me. I keep feeling guilty, though I knew there was no where in the Bible that commanded me to go.

Then one day I was thinking about it, going over it (to myself) how I knew the Word, I knew the message, and I just didn't need to go. Then, I believe The Lord told me clearly,
"You don't need to go for you. you need to go for others that need what you know." (paraphrase)

That's when it hit me. Believers get so selfish. We want to go and "get fed" all the time. Never understanding that there comes a point when your feeding has to stop being the priority and feeding others should become the focus.

I didn't need to go to church for me. I needed to go to church for the people there that maybe needed my insight on their own journey. Also, because no matter how "scholarly" you think you are, you still need accountability from your peers to keep you on track. We are ALL susceptible without accountability.

Will people be damned for going to a 503c church? I doubt it. In the end, the truth is... Christ crucified. That's what's required. So rather than sit on a high horse, I decided that I am no better or worse than anyone else.

And if I'm sooo smart and knew sooo much, then I should be doing more.

That's my 2 cents.

Michael Joseph
03-28-11, 10:46 PM
aw-dawm = mankind
eth-ha-aw-dawm relates to only two - the First Adam [horrible translation] and the Last [Yehoshuah].

Kenites are Sons of Cain - Yisra'el was told do not mix with others - "Do not commit adultery".

Treefarmer wrote: "There is only one Adam, the first man, who had children with his wife Eve (Chavvah), who was flesh of his flesh and who "was the mother of all living" (Gen. 3:20). All means all."

Apparently you have not read carefully the work I presented on What happened in the Garden. I completely disagree with this assertion and so does Scripture.

Regarding the Kenites, I have studied them for some time now - Nehemiah jumping on the backs of the men of Yisra'el - DO NOT TAKE WIVES OF THOSE PEOPLE. For the race you mention along with many others freely intermingled with the Nephilim - an attempt to wipe out the blood-line to Yehoshua - A pure bloodline. Satan's 2nd attack on the bloodline - in attempt to make it impossible for the Christ Child to enter this Age.

A pure blood-line; A pure blood-line; From One Man - Emphatically The Man.

Chavvah is the mother of All living because - she is the means where Yehoshuah will be born from the waters of a woman.

Gen 2 - Gen 6 - speak emphatically to only ONE man - that is if you can read the manuscripts. And if you will take the time to read the study that I provided you, you will see that the Man placed in the garden carries both the article and the particle. He is not ordinary mankind [aw-dawm]; created at Gen 1:27. Funny how chinese recorded history goes so much further back in time than yisra'el nation.

Ever read the front page of the 1611 KJV. If not, you should one day. The writers humbly presented that they did their best; yet they knew there were many errors and they cautioned the reader to do their own work - Yet who will search the depths of the Scriptures?

Regarding 2nd Peter 1 - That is why you had best have a good pre 65' stongs concordance and a Green's Interlinear so that you can see for your own eyes what the Hebrew and the Greek and the Aramaic writings - say.

There were many other people on that Ark beside Noah, his wife, his sons and his sons wifes. And to say that the Kenites are from Noah; well just return to the previous sentence. The Kenites are the Sons of Cain.

Furthermore, if Noah's flood was a so called worldwide flood - which it was not [ I believe] - how in the world would a dove find an olive branch? The Raven had all the food he needed - symbolic of end times - transformation of bodies - flesh lying on ground.

The purpose of Noah's flood, I believe, was to rid the world of the Nephilim [Angelic] hybrids - ever wonder why Yehovah would say to Yisra'el go in and kill every single one of them! Samuel even taking Sauls sword and chopping the foreign king to pieces in front of Saul because Saul was too much of a wus to do God's business.


Treefarmer wrote: Also, nowhere does the Bible say that angels or cherubim (such as Satan) have the ability to procreate sexually, even though angels sometimes appear in the form of men. Jesus makes this clear in Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25.

Apparently you have never read Gen 6. Or Kebra Negast.

Sons of God - Angels
Daughters of Eth-ha-aw-dawm - I know you read "man", right? Yet, in manuscripts - eth-ha-aw-dawm (go look for yourself and prove me wrong)

and they took wives of all they choose. And the women bare children to them and these became mighty men men of renown. I guess Jude was high on mushrooms when he said Angels left their former estate. Peter too as he talked about them as well. Yehoshuah too as he spoke to salvation requirement coming into this Age thru the "waters of a woman". These Angels Nephilim or Raphiim rode "their whirlwinds" - UFO's if you like - I know now I have really left the plantation, right? I can prove every bit of this in Scripture.

Said Angels are reserved in darkness and cannot receive Salvation - these look upon Satan - and say "You have become as one of us" - weak.

I have provided a study for those who would take the time to read it. Let the reader choose for himself/herself.

Alef/Tav = Eth - The first two characters of the Man in the Garden - emphatically is Eth - Even a poor man's Stong's Concordance today will bear that out.....

H853
את
'êth

Apparently contracted from H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely): - (As such unrepresented in English.)

Michael Joseph
03-28-11, 10:56 PM
you have made many claims, yet no evidence? We disagree. I suspect that until we agree we shall disagree.

I have made no implications upon you Axe. Interesting....


Your heart does not seem to be in the right place.


Thank you for pointing that out for me....

I have yet to cast a stone upon you - thank you for damning me to Hell....

If it makes you feel any better, I promise not to crusade against you - live and let live.....

Shalom.


Let the Reader choose for himself....thank you Axe for engaging the conversation....

Axe
03-28-11, 11:01 PM
Hi MJ,

Why a pre 65' stongs concordance and a Green's Interlinear?

I mean why those specifically?

If later versions don't show what you assert, why would they change?

Thanks.

Axe
03-28-11, 11:07 PM
Okay, not damning anyone to hell. Very dramatic indeed.

Yet you do cast stones, not at me but at others, which is what I was addressing.

And if I am a Pastor? Or a WASP? Now have cast stones on me?

People in glass houses you know...

Axe
03-28-11, 11:17 PM
No Evidence? Seriously?


Why are the "trees" in the garden not all the same? Same word. Tree of life, tree of knowledge of good and evil,
and all the other "trees" in the garden. There is no need to go to Isa, or Ezk when there is plenty of "context" within
the same chapter, even the same verse!.

None other than the apparent big gaping hole in your assertion. You can't have it both ways. Either they were all really "trees" or they were all "beings" of some kind.

The burden of proof is not mine. You are the one suggesting that "trees" aren't really "trees". Seems to me the burden is on you ;-)

David Merrill
03-29-11, 12:14 AM
This is a really interesting discussion if MJ will show a little about anatomy too! I have had this talk with him before.

I see men as trees...

Axe
03-29-11, 12:58 AM
Hi David,

Sure okay, but this is about the context of Gen 2:9.

For the same Hebrew word, two completely different meanings in the same sentence?

To my knowledge that doesn't occur anywhere else in the Bible. Sure there are times
much later when trees are likened to man or men, which MJ cited.

My response was there is no need to go that far away from the verse to divine the intent
of the word. It is used 2 other times in the same verse! So either ALL the instances of
that word in that verse are really trees, or they are all something else.

Not to mention the supporting verb "ate" both of which go against what MJ is trying to assert.

Too many things have to be true to believe MJ's thesis.

Occam's razor.

Anything beyond the immediate context of the verse and chapter is smoke and mirrors until
the immediate context is addressed.

The Bible interprets itself that way. There is no need for all this confusion.
It means what it means.

I believe they were trees, and Adam was not a homosexual.

Reasonable readers can decide.

It's not my intent to beat anybody up, and I don't think anything fruitful will come out
of me discussing this further unless what I mentioned above is addressed.

It looks like MJ was right, we disagree.

I have very much enjoyed this discussion and thank MJ very much for starting the thread and being a gentleman in the discussion.

(If you do start a thread on rapture theology, I'll be sure to stop there as well, if I'm still welcome :-))

God Bless

Michael Joseph
03-29-11, 02:54 AM
Hi MJ,

Why a pre 65' stongs concordance and a Green's Interlinear?

I mean why those specifically?

If later versions don't show what you assert, why would they change?

Thanks.

The pre 65 Strong's is much more complete - why the Later versions became less complete is a mystery to me. Green's Interlinear is the cheapest complete version of the Original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts that I have ever been able to find. Not to say that their translations are complete but the Original Texts are very complete. I think a Green's will run a student around $70.00. Very good recourse.

Along with Smiths Bible Dictionary and many other excellent tools; yet, in my opinion, the foregoing tools are superior. As all of the latter day translations stem from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts; one in search of the truth, might consider having those and taking the time to look and see.

I have found them to be quite helpful and revealing. A king cannot be king in yisra'el unless he handwrites the Books of Moses. Once one does this he may see what others cannot see due to modern day translations and the traditions of modern preachers.

shalom,
mj

Michael Joseph
03-29-11, 03:01 AM
Hi David,

Sure okay, but this is about the context of Gen 2:9.

For the same Hebrew word, two completely different meanings in the same sentence?

To my knowledge that doesn't occur anywhere else in the Bible. Sure there are times
much later when trees are likened to man or men, which MJ cited.

My response was there is no need to go that far away from the verse to divine the intent
of the word. It is used 2 other times in the same verse! So either ALL the instances of
that word in that verse are really trees, or they are all something else.

Not to mention the supporting verb "ate" both of which go against what MJ is trying to assert.

Too many things have to be true to believe MJ's thesis.

Occam's razor.

Anything beyond the immediate context of the verse and chapter is smoke and mirrors until
the immediate context is addressed.

The Bible interprets itself that way. There is no need for all this confusion.
It means what it means.

I believe they were trees, and Adam was not a homosexual.

Reasonable readers can decide.

It's not my intent to beat anybody up, and I don't think anything fruitful will come out
of me discussing this further unless what I mentioned above is addressed.

It looks like MJ was right, we disagree.

I have very much enjoyed this discussion and thank MJ very much for starting the thread and being a gentleman in the discussion.

(If you do start a thread on rapture theology, I'll be sure to stop there as well, if I'm still welcome :-))

God Bless

you have passion for the Word as do I. I am not your judge nor you mine; yet we are brothers as we all belong to the One Creator.

Your beliefs are your and that's great.

Frederick Burrell
03-29-11, 03:07 AM
MJ

So who or what do you believe the Nephilim to be. fb

Michael Joseph
03-29-11, 03:07 AM
This is a really interesting discussion if MJ will show a little about anatomy too! I have had this talk with him before.

I see men as trees...

David Merrill that discussion is liable to get me hung as a witch. To the 12 year old girl - feed her meat. Yet if she cannot eat meat, then well; in love - go thy way.

I am very hesitant to raise this discourse to that level; as there are many new ones and old ones who may indeed have their faith harmed because they just don't understand. I thought about discussing the First, Second and Third heaven/Earth ages and Election; I have decided not to. If someone would like to have discussion of these privately well that is one thing; but these concepts are so foreign to most they will get in the way of truth.

The blind man could see men as trees - that is as far as I will go here.

Shalom,
mj


new wine in an old wine skin is not good...you have handwritten the Books of Moses....

Treefarmer
03-29-11, 03:30 AM
aw-dawm = mankind
eth-ha-aw-dawm relates to only two - the First Adam [horrible translation] and the Last [Yehoshuah].

Gen 2 - Gen 6 - speak emphatically to only ONE man - that is if you can read the manuscripts. And if you will take the time to read the study that I provided you, you will see that the Man placed in the garden carries both the article and the particle. He is not ordinary mankind [aw-dawm]; created at Gen 1:27. Funny how chinese recorded history goes so much further back in time than yisra'el nation.

Daughters of Eth-ha-aw-dawm - I know you read "man", right? Yet, in manuscripts - eth-ha-aw-dawm (go look for yourself and prove me wrong)

Alef/Tav = Eth - The first two characters of the Man in the Garden - emphatically is Eth - Even a poor man's Stong's Concordance today will bear that out.....

H853
את
'êth

Apparently contracted from H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely): - (As such unrepresented in English.)

You made my point about the grammar there, but we seem to disagree as to the meaning of it.
I wonder if you are overlooking the fact that the definite article as well as some particles are joined with the noun in Hebrew, unlike in English, French and German, where they occur as separate words.
Hebrew has no indefinite article.

To put it a different way:

Q - What is that?
A - It's 'a'-'man'.

Q - Where is he?
A - 'The'-'man' is in the garden.

Q - What's his name?
A - His name is 'man'.


I looked over your study and I tried to read it, but it didn't make any sense to me.
You seem to see and read things in the Bible that I don't see and read there.
Looks like we can read the same scriptures and come to vastly different conclusions.
That's interesting in itself.

I'm glad we can agree that the flood was to rid the world of genetic hybrids; we just don't agree on how they were created.

Have you noticed how fast leaves can grow out of a rooted twig that's been under water for weeks, or months?
I can see why that dove would have found green leaves after a while of waiting and searching, even though the whole world had been under water, 15 cubits upward and the mountains were covered.

I continue to be interested in your scriptural explorations, because sometimes you come up with some gems.
I really enjoyed the anatomy paper based on Mark 8.
I'm also still wondering what you mean by "ages".
I hope that your ages theory doesn't depend on the serpent seed doctrine, because I think that's totally off the deep end.

Seeing different peoples' scripture interpretations is always interesting to me, because at the very least I figure out different perspectives.
Sometimes I even incorporate those perspectives into my own thinking.

Thank you for the interesting food for thought Michael Joseph, all your efforts are appreciated.
Bright blessings

Axe
03-29-11, 03:45 AM
you have passion for the Word as do I. I am not your judge nor you mine; yet we are brothers as we all belong to the One Creator.

Your beliefs are your and that's great.

Brothers absolutely.

Frederick Burrell
03-29-11, 03:52 AM
Perhaps there is more than one level of interpretation for scripture. I have heard there are at least 7. This could cause some very profound disagreements if we are not acknowledging that fact and are not on the same page or level when conversing about what is being expressed. fb

Michael Joseph
03-29-11, 05:13 AM
MJ

So who or what do you believe the Nephilim to be. fb

Frederick Burrell thank you for this question; I hope you will share your thoughts as well. From the Great Book of Genesis


Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,


Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.


Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


H5303 - giants
נפל נפיל
nephı̂yl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.

H1368 - mighty men
גּבּר גּבּור
gibbôr gibbôr
ghib-bore', ghib-bore'
Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication warrior, tyrant: - champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man.


Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?


-----

There are wars in Heaven - the Angelic World as their are wars on Earth. I believe these Angelic Beings were seduced by Ha Satan in first Age [Heaven/Earth] and these thought to do the Work of their Leader. At Isaiah 14 these speak to Ha Satan.

----

Nephilim were superhuman beings that had to be destroyed. Enoch spoke of the prophecy of their destruction see Jude.

Num 13:22 And they ascended by the south, and came unto Hebron; where Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak, were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)

Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Gen 14:5 And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emims in Shaveh Kiriathaim,


Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

Gen 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

The foregoing all contained Angelic DNA.

Deu 2:10 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims;

Deu 2:20 (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;

Deu 2:21 A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead:

Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.


H7496
רפא
râphâ'
raw-faw'
From H7495 in the sense of H7503; properly lax, that is, (figuratively) a ghost (as dead; in plural only): - dead, deceased.


Anak was a noted descendant of the Nephilim; and Rapha was another, giving their names respectively to different clans. Anak's father was Arba, the original builder of Hebron (Genesis 35:27. Joshau 15:13; 21:11); and this Palestine branch of the Anakim was not called Abrahim after him, but Anakim after Anak. They were great, mighty, and tall (Deuteronomy 2:10,11,21,22,23; 9:2), evidently inspiring the ten spies with great fear (Numbers 12:33). Og king of Bashan is described in Deuteronomy 3:11).

Their strength is seen in "the giant cities of Bashan" to-day; and we know not how far they may have been utilized by Egypt in the construction of buildings, which is still an unsolved problem.

Arba was rebuilt by the Khabiri or confederates seven years before Zoan was built by Egyptian Pharoahs of the nineteenth dynasty. See note on Numbers 13:22.

Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Genesis 6:4. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks.

---------------------------

Michael Joseph
03-29-11, 05:18 AM
Perhaps there is more than one level of interpretation for scripture. I have heard there are at least 7. This could cause some very profound disagreements if we are not acknowledging that fact and are not on the same page or level when conversing about what is being expressed. fb

thank you for this. Paul himself had three commissions. Most can't get past level one. Yet Paul also wrote to the Kings and Queens and to the Elect and Remnant. The latter two levels I shall not go into here.

By the way Peter was quite aware of Paul's commission and he fully knew the struggle others would have comprehending his writings. Yet those who can see - see.

A blind man by the side of the road yet to receive his sight - said - "I see men as trees walking".

Peter was writing directly to the Elect/Remnant.

Michael Joseph
03-29-11, 05:27 AM
You made my point about the grammar there, but we seem to disagree as to the meaning of it.
I wonder if you are overlooking the fact that the definite article as well as some particles are joined with the noun in Hebrew, unlike in English, French and German, where they occur as separate words.
Hebrew has no indefinite article.

To put it a different way:

Q - What is that?
A - It's 'a'-'man'.

Q - Where is he?
A - 'The'-'man' is in the garden.

Q - What's his name?
A - His name is 'man'.


I looked over your study and I tried to read it, but it didn't make any sense to me.
You seem to see and read things in the Bible that I don't see and read there.
Looks like we can read the same scriptures and come to vastly different conclusions.
That's interesting in itself.

I'm glad we can agree that the flood was to rid the world of genetic hybrids; we just don't agree on how they were created.

Have you noticed how fast leaves can grow out of a rooted twig that's been under water for weeks, or months?
I can see why that dove would have found green leaves after a while of waiting and searching, even though the whole world had been under water, 15 cubits upward and the mountains were covered.

I continue to be interested in your scriptural explorations, because sometimes you come up with some gems.
I really enjoyed the anatomy paper based on Mark 8.
I'm also still wondering what you mean by "ages".
I hope that your ages theory doesn't depend on the serpent seed doctrine, because I think that's totally off the deep end.

Seeing different peoples' scripture interpretations is always interesting to me, because at the very least I figure out different perspectives.
Sometimes I even incorporate those perspectives into my own thinking.

Thank you for the interesting food for thought Michael Joseph, all your efforts are appreciated.
Bright blessings

Thank you Treefarmer. Remember that Noah's flood took one year for the waters to abate. That is to tell this former Environmental and Civil Engineer that every bit of plant life would be absolutely dead.

But look I admit I cannot prove that Noah's flood was not worldwide; it is just my opinion. Yehovah wanted the Gibbor Dead.

Kebra Negast the Ethiopian Bible goes into Great detail regarding these Giants and the children that the women bare to these Angels. I know it's not canonized; neither is nature. Yet, the Promise was given 430 years prior to the Law at Sinai; and Yet; Sodom and Gomorrah were found Guilty of Sin. Selah.

Cain was found guilty of Murder. Where was the Law? Selah.

The Man in the garden was a husbandman [farmer]; the mankind at Gen 1:27 were hunters and fishers. No farmers.

Frederick Burrell
03-29-11, 05:36 AM
MJ

From your quotes it would seem to indicate that either angel took on human form and indwelt physical bodies. Which would not explain the change in DNA. Or they were physical beings from some other place. I tend toward the latter. It could also be possible that there was genetic manipulation involved from physical beings with the ability to accomplish this. This would fall in line with some interpretations of the Sumerian writings.

Your talk of various level of heaven remind me of some writing in regards to IRS cases by a man that was a Morman. Don't recall his name but some where I have a copy of his letter to a fellow that was going to trial in a tax case. He didn't heed the mans warning and ended up serving time. Is what you referring to along the same lines in regards to the various levels of heaven. He espoused Ideas about contracts we enter into before entering this plane. FB

Michael Joseph
03-29-11, 06:00 AM
MJ

From your quotes it would seem to indicate that either angel took on human form and indwell physical bodies. Which would not explain the change in DNA. Or they were physical beings from some other place. I tend toward the latter. It could also be possible that there was genetic manipulation involve from physical beings with the ability to accomplish this. This would fall in line with some interpretations of the Sumerian writings.

Your talk of various level of heaven remind me of some writing in regards to IRS cases by a man that was a Morman. Don't recall his name but some where I have a copy of his letter to a fellow that was going to trial in a tax case. He didn't heed the mans warning and ended up serving time. Is what you referring to along the same lines in regards to the various levels of heaven. He exposed Ideas about contracts we enter into before entering this plane. FB

I have been called a closet Mormon - I have no idea what that is.

Manna was called Angels Food. Yehovah himself rode in a craft to speak to Ezekiel - O' Wheel.

While God is Spirit; I have yet to find that the Angelic World is Spirit. In fact there are signs in the first age of foot prints that look just like mankinds footprints; yet these are 50k years old. Angels came to see Abraham and they sat down and ate dinner with him.

If you know of the Katabole [Greek] or Tuhoo va buhoo [Hebrew] the great overturning at the end of the first Age; then you will comprhehend that we were here before. If too deep maybe I will go into a study of the Ages.

Suffice to say that manna is Angels food - and it sustained mankind. If the Angels came directly here from their former habitation; and they "came into" the daughters of [the Man] - and other daughters as well - the attempt to destroy the bloodline so that the Christ child could not come forth from Chavvah, these would have to be with mass. And in fact they are.

Does that challenge your way of thinking about matters?

Yehovah made a contract with Abraham - saying in him the SEED was called - that was not Plural - there is but one - Yehoshuah. I believe Galations should bring more light to that matter. Regarding Law and the Promise. The Promise being made long before the Law. 430 years to be exact.

We will be judged based on our knowledge. Yet Yehovah wants us to have knowledge of God. Even way before Yehoshuah Yehovah did away with blood animal sacrifice.

See Hosea 6:6; Isaiah 6:4; Isaiah 1.

We are healed in the Promise - therefore we are the Seed of the Promise - or First fruits unto Yehoshuah - made one blood - Under Yehoshuah - Commonwealth of Yisra'el.

The Heaven/Earth Ages have nothing to do with time but to certain events that Yehovah shook both the Heavens and the Earth. In the Age that was there were many who were justified that come thru this age - with destiny and duty. The Elect Son. There were also many who just did not cut it based on one Son - Son of Perdition - who led many astray.

Yehovah decided on a Second Age - Test. "Yet, I shall not make a full end." There are many who cannot see; because it is not for them to see. They can't stand that kind of speech. Yet lets see what the Master said:

"And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Frederick Burrell
03-29-11, 06:09 AM
David Merrill that discussion is liable to get me hung as a witch. To the 12 year old girl - feed her meat. Yet if she cannot eat meat, then well; in love - go thy way.

I am very hesitant to raise this discourse to that level; as there are many new ones and old ones who may indeed have their faith harmed because they just don't understand. I thought about discussing the First, Second and Third heaven/Earth ages and Election; I have decided not to. If someone would like to have discussion of these privately well that is one thing; but these concepts are so foreign to most they will get in the way of truth.

The blind man could see men as trees - that is as far as I will go here.

Shalom,
mj


new wine in an old wine skin is not good...you have handwritten the Books of Moses....

If not now when. I understand your hesitation but, perhaps now is the right time. All things will be revealed. Its happening slowly now but will become a torrent as time passes. Many minds my not be able to cope with the revelations to come. FB

Michael Joseph
03-29-11, 06:21 AM
If not now when. I understand your hesitation but, perhaps now is the right time. All things will be revealed. Its happening slowly now but will become a torrent as time passes. Many minds my not be able to cope with the revelations to come. FB

well that is true but many minds have been already setup - they already carry the mark - and they don't have a clue they carry it. They suppose the End of Days will be hostile and full of terror and bloodshed. Not so. They will be peaceful and prosperous. One will step forward and offer a solution - there is no debt - come under my shadow.

They see not the Roman or the Greek and cannot put it together. They cannot climb Nebuchadnezzars Statue. Yet to Count the Number means one must go way back and enumerate those "smooth" stones. Before the Garden of Eden. - Yes, I can hear them now - what is he talking about now. Too much work. And when one working in the field "attempts" at a key - they are slandered. I got some thick skin; yet there are some who are not meant to know. Because if they come to the true light, they do not have the backbone to do what will need to be done. And as such, they will fail and commit the only unforgivable sin. As such the 1000 years of - spot on - teaching. For in those 1000 years some souls are still mortal to die and yet some souls previously justified in first age are not mortal to die and will teach.

And get this, the ONLY souls that will see Yehoshuah in the 1000 year period - that is after all knees bow - are the Elect of Yehovah - All others will remain without for teaching and instruction. See the parable of the five loaves and two fish? Yehoshuah performed the Miracle - the Disciples handed out the food. With Order and Discipline.

I will remain in the field working as I know you will to. Oh they will attempt to get me to come to their Great Church Revival...Not this boy.

Frederick Burrell
03-29-11, 06:24 AM
MJ

Does not cause any consternation, in fact I find it refreshing that one has studied scripture in such depth and with such an open mind to find this level of information. Yes it would seem there is the milk for the infants and meat for the men.

Soon to change I would hope as the incoming energies reactivate, and promote greater awareness. The cycles repeat. Now it is a time to remember what was forgotten, but not just mentally but experiencially also. It would seem that through the time of forgetfulness that mankind has attempted to hold on to knowledge,intellectually, that was common place. As the darkness fell more and more of the keys to understanding were lost. But are now being remembered and experienced. As the Christ once again takes its place as the head of the church.

Frederick Burrell
03-29-11, 06:37 AM
Can we leave part of ourself behind. I think not. Every eye shall see him. Every one will awaken and when they realize what they have become a part of will pray for forgiveness. Forgive them father for they know not what they do. The only ones cut off are as you have spoken have commited the unforgivable sin. To me that represents the mind that has totally denied its connection with spirit. It will be cut off. There will be no transfer of knowledge into the book of life, they have cut themselves off. Few, I feel fall into this category.

Imagine yourself as one of those who have caused so much harm to their fellow man suddenly awakening to their true nature. Looking in the mirror and realizing the pain they have inflicted. Quite a burden. Yet perhaps they played their part just as Judas played his. Was his motivation for profit or a mis-guided attempt to force the issue. FB

Michael Joseph
03-29-11, 06:49 AM
MJ

Does not cause any consternation, in fact I find it refreshing that one has studied scripture in such depth and with such an open mind to find this level of information. Yes it would seem there is the milk for the infants and meat for the men.

Soon to change I would hope as the incoming energies reactivate, and promote greater awareness. The cycles repeat. Now it is a time to remember what was forgotten, but not just mentally but experiencially also. It would seem that through the time of forgetfulness that mankind has attempted to hold on to knowledge,intellectually, that was common place. As the darkness fell more and more of the keys to understanding were lost. But are now being remembered and experienced. As the Christ once again takes its place as the head of the church.

You make me smile. Because I can read your words and I know what you mean. YeHoVaH be blessed.

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

God is Spirit. Know ye not that Ye are the Temple - living Stones.

------

Thank you for your kind words. There are many that already comprehend the mystery of the pine-comb. Pharoah knew; the Pope seems to know; and there are many, many so called "lay" who comprehend "travel", "frequencies", "energy" and there are those that are scared little children who are content to tell their brother 'Jesus loves you' - well no duh. Lets move on, now.

Yet, I will not be responsible for hurting one new to the faith. My knowledge is unimportant as i hope to take the 'office of the fisherman'. There are other places to discuss such matters. I'd best get running now, I can already hear the mob forming with their pitchforks and torches....

I have not seen this on Discover Channel - Have you? (http://hubpages.com/hub/Was-Pumapunku-Built-by-Ancient-Astronauts) forget the Article look at the size of those rocks - and you ought to get a look at that Sun Gate - for the learned it is a clock. 'nough said.


2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Michael Joseph
03-29-11, 06:53 AM
Can we leave part of ourself behind. I think not. Every eye shall see him. Every one will awaken and when they realize what they have become a part of will pray for forgiveness. Forgive them father for they know not what they do. The only ones cut off are as you have spoken have commited the unforgivable sin. To me that represents the mind that has totally denied its connection with spirit. It will be cut off. There will be no transfer of knowledge into the book of life, they have cut themselves off. Few, I feel fall into this category.

Imagine yourself as one of those who have caused so much harm to their fellow man suddenly awakening to their true nature. Looking in the mirror and realizing the pain they have inflicted. Quite a burden. Yet perhaps they played their part just as Judas played his. Was his motivation for profit or a mis-guided attempt to force the issue. FB

I do not judge Judas. He was necessary for the plan. Plus he repented and he had a lot of help hanging himself. Never have I seen a man cut open from hanging himself.

Religion is one of the Power Centers. That unforgiveable sin is to disallow the Holy Spirit to speak in that day. And if you must ask what day, then you can't commit it.

Frederick Burrell
03-29-11, 07:06 AM
Nice chatting with you MJ. Take care. Perhaps in another venue we can discuss more. FB

Axe
03-29-11, 08:15 PM
MJ,

All this is interesting. My question to you is, can you put forth all of these ideas using only the Bible?

If so, I would be happy to hear more. I hope you understand that my response to the "serpent seed" was in no
way a condemnation of different ways of interpreting Scripture.

There are rules of logic and interpretation. Why?

I can hear you respond, "rules close the mind and bind to the lie."

Yes, well without a sense of context and structure minds will be open to anything.
I give you Jim Jones. Harry Krishna. Mao.

So, if you can, are willing to, or even have the inkling to put forth your "structure"
of interpretation before hand, just so we know that someone is not just making things
up as they go, well then there is room for delving further.

But without said structure, (predefined) there is no way for another to verify independently
assertions that are put forth, or build further theories of their own based on said structure.

In other words, you have one person, saying things are this way. How do they know?
Because it was "revealed" to them and only to them. That IS Jim Jones.

Hopefully you understand what I'm saying. Likewise hopefully you also understand that
I'm not calling you Jim Jones :-)

Thanks.

P.S. There is nothing wrong with putting forth assumptions or opinions that one draws from
ideas that are put forward but not specified in the Bible.

When I teach the Bible to my kids, they ask questions that sometimes are not specifically
answered in the Bible. How do I answer?

I say, well the Bible doesn't say specifically, so specifically, we can't be sure. But my OPINION
is (such and such), but remember, that is MY OPINION and not from the Word of God.

When there is a specific answer, I cite the answer and read it to them right from the Word.

My stress is always on "the only thing we can be SURE of, is what is specifically put forth from
The Lord himself.

I know The Lord will hold me responsible for ANYTHING that I teach them regarding His Holy Word.
That is a responsibility I take VERY seriously, as should everyone.

Matthew 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. (NASB)

Michael Joseph
03-29-11, 10:46 PM
MJ,

All this is interesting. My question to you is, can you put forth all of these ideas using only the Bible?

If so, I would be happy to hear more. I hope you understand that my response to the "serpent seed" was in no
way a condemnation of different ways of interpreting Scripture.

There are rules of logic and interpretation. Why?

I can hear you respond, "rules close the mind and bind to the lie."

Yes, well without a sense of context and structure minds will be open to anything.
I give you Jim Jones. Harry Krishna. Mao.

So, if you can, are willing to, or even have the inkling to put forth your "structure"
of interpretation before hand, just so we know that someone is not just making things
up as they go, well then there is room for delving further.

But without said structure, (predefined) there is no way for another to verify independently
assertions that are put forth, or build further theories of their own based on said structure.

In other words, you have one person, saying things are this way. How do they know?
Because it was "revealed" to them and only to them. That IS Jim Jones.

Hopefully you understand what I'm saying. Likewise hopefully you also understand that
I'm not calling you Jim Jones :-)

Thanks.

P.S. There is nothing wrong with putting forth assumptions or opinions that one draws from
ideas that are put forward but not specified in the Bible.

When I teach the Bible to my kids, they ask questions that sometimes are not specifically
answered in the Bible. How do I answer?

I say, well the Bible doesn't say specifically, so specifically, we can't be sure. But my OPINION
is (such and such), but remember, that is MY OPINION and not from the Word of God.

When there is a specific answer, I cite the answer and read it to them right from the Word.

My stress is always on "the only thing we can be SURE of, is what is specifically put forth from
The Lord himself.

I know The Lord will hold me responsible for ANYTHING that I teach them regarding His Holy Word.
That is a responsibility I take VERY seriously, as should everyone.

Matthew 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. (NASB)

Axe thank you for this post. I can express every single one of the ideas presented from Scripture. What I mean by Scripture is the Masoretic and the Suptuagint Texts that the latter translations were made - modern day KJV, NIV, etc.


There are many different levels to Scripture. I comprehend that so I do not judge another man's belief systems. You are right on in regard to responsibility to Yehovah regarding his Word. I too take that very serious. When I teach I do not care for topical teaching - I study each book one word at a time until we are done with that book. Then on to the next book.


The other references are just "supporting" references. I suppose you are referencing Election and the Ages?

I sort of like to let God's Word be the double, triple, quadruple witness to the truth. So I can appreciate the Standard - two or more witnesses.

Yehoshuah said at Mark 13 - Behold I have foretold you ALL things.

As such, we need not leave the Old Covenant for the Entire Scripture to be taught. The Book of Zachariah alone can be used to teach old and new covenant just by itself.

Is there any specific topic of interest?

shalom,
mj

P.S. Cult-like teachers will not answer questions - usually one head - just like the Nicolaitans While I appreciate Order men and women must be allowed to ask questions else it is not teaching - it is brainwashing. Creates classes and Yehoshuah hated it.

Axe
03-29-11, 11:41 PM
MJ, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I do enjoy the thought of further learning or understanding of any sound doctrine.

Hopefully, you will permit me to outline some of my boundaries before we begin in order to avoid any conflicts later on? If not, I understand and respect your point of view.

I am not trying to dictate to you, rather I'm protecting myself and anyone else that may be influenced by this discussion. I do not want to be the cause (by participating) of any discussion involving uninspired texts that might confuse others understandings of God's Inspired Word.


Axe thank you for this post. I can express every single one of the ideas presented from Scripture. What I mean by Scripture is the Masoretic and the Suptuagint Texts that the latter translations were made - modern day KJV, NIV, etc.

Of course. I will stipulate, provided you understand that I do not believe or accept that Apocryphal books are inspired. New Testament writers never quoted from it and it was not a part of the original Jewish canon of scripture. For further clarity this includes the books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus), the Wisdom of Solomon, First and Second Maccabees, the two Books of Esdras, additions to the Book of Esther, additions to the Book of Daniel, and the Prayer of Manasseh. Therefore in our discussion I will give no weight or thought to anything you put forward from these writings, so hopefully you can present your interpretations without them.

Again, with all humility I am not trying to dictate to you. But since this is in a public forum my first responsibility is to anyone that may read it. If this is unacceptable, we need discuss it no further and I will happily let you go your way, and I will go mine.


I sort of like to let God's Word be the double, triple, quadruple witness to the truth. So I can appreciate the Standard - two or more witnesses.

Now we are speaking the same language. I will not corrupt my thought life with anything that cannot be fully found and supported in the Inspired Word itself.

If anything needs to be introduced from outside of the Inspired Canon, then it is not God's truth.

If we are in agreement so far, I would like to get straight your idea of context ahead of time. Is it your opinion that anything said anywhere in God's Inspired word can be used at will, interchangeably at any time?

Do you have a hierarchy or weight which you assign in order to divine meaning to verses that may be vague or metaphorical? Specifically, do you have any parameters you use in order to even decide when something is metaphorical or not? If you don't that's fine, I'm just asking.

(This is not something I need you to agree with me on. I'm just looking for your process so that I know we are going by your process and not mine.) Please understand by no means do I think that I have the ONLY acceptable way to interpret, hence the question.

Thanks.

Axe
03-30-11, 12:00 AM
Is there any specific topic of interest?

As a matter of fact, yes. I would love to open a discussion of the Great Tribulation.

Perhaps you or I should start a new thread if we are in agreement to discuss it?

I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on this document:

http://www.harvestherald.com/sureword/sureword_main.htm

It's a chart. One that I can't imagine how long it took to put together.

I am not a member of this group, nor do I submit it as truth. It has however caused me to give it a great deal of thought, as it is a different interpretation then I had before.

The reason for my quandary is in the group's absolute commitment to only using the Inspired texts, and their unique, albeit different conclusions based on their interpretations of the translation.

So, since that is topical, the book of study would be Revelation. Understanding that there are many Old and New Testament relevant verses to that book, especially Daniel.

Michael Joseph
03-30-11, 12:38 AM
You made my point about the grammar there, but we seem to disagree as to the meaning of it.
I wonder if you are overlooking the fact that the definite article as well as some particles are joined with the noun in Hebrew, unlike in English, French and German, where they occur as separate words.
Hebrew has no indefinite article.

To put it a different way:

Q - What is that?
A - It's 'a'-'man'.

Q - Where is he?
A - 'The'-'man' is in the garden.

Q - What's his name?
A - His name is 'man'.


I looked over your study and I tried to read it, but it didn't make any sense to me.
You seem to see and read things in the Bible that I don't see and read there.
Looks like we can read the same scriptures and come to vastly different conclusions.
That's interesting in itself.

I'm glad we can agree that the flood was to rid the world of genetic hybrids; we just don't agree on how they were created.

Have you noticed how fast leaves can grow out of a rooted twig that's been under water for weeks, or months?
I can see why that dove would have found green leaves after a while of waiting and searching, even though the whole world had been under water, 15 cubits upward and the mountains were covered.

I continue to be interested in your scriptural explorations, because sometimes you come up with some gems.
I really enjoyed the anatomy paper based on Mark 8.
I'm also still wondering what you mean by "ages".
I hope that your ages theory doesn't depend on the serpent seed doctrine, because I think that's totally off the deep end.

Seeing different peoples' scripture interpretations is always interesting to me, because at the very least I figure out different perspectives.
Sometimes I even incorporate those perspectives into my own thinking.

Thank you for the interesting food for thought Michael Joseph, all your efforts are appreciated.
Bright blessings

If according to the opposing interpretation to my presentment that at the Time of Adam/Eve Cain/Abel there were just four living souls and one smart snake, then please resolve the following quandries with your interpretation:

1. What other peoples, that might find Cain, would slay him?

Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me

2. Who settled this land called Nod - Adam/Eve/Cain lived in the Garden? and Who is this woman Cain married?

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


------


I am more than convinced that the races were made on the sixth day and a specific man was made some time later [some say the eighth day] this man with specific duty to keep his blood line pure so that the Christ Child could come into this age undefiled.

shalom,
mj

p.s. The word for Serpent:

H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.

You know all the characteristics of the serpent are indeed the same characteristics of a man. Selah.

Michael Joseph
03-30-11, 12:42 AM
As a matter of fact, yes. I would love to open a discussion of the Great Tribulation.

Perhaps you or I should start a new thread if we are in agreement to discuss it?

I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on this document:

http://www.harvestherald.com/sureword/sureword_main.htm

It's a chart. One that I can't imagine how long it took to put together.

I am not a member of this group, nor do I submit it as truth. It has however caused me to give it a great deal of thought, as it is a different interpretation then I had before.

The reason for my quandary is in the group's absolute commitment to only using the Inspired texts, and their unique, albeit different conclusions based on their interpretations of the translation.

So, since that is topical, the book of study would be Revelation. Understanding that there are many Old and New Testament relevant verses to that book, especially Daniel.

Prior to discussing the Tribulation one must have fundamental knowledge of the order of events. If we are not on the same page in regard to Fake Jesus - Satan coming as Jesus - comes first to deceive the World, then we have no basis to discuss the Tribulation. Because i can guarantee we will be miles apart. Furthermore, if Rapture is believed, we are gonna have problems there as well.

Two great lies - any moment doctrine; and Rapture - insidious lies.

Else, I am game; but I would want to put on new thread. The topical books are Minor and Major Prophets, Luke 21, Matthew 24; Mark 13, Thess 1 and 2; 1st/2nd Corinthians and Revelation

Axe
03-30-11, 12:52 AM
Okay, well I don't know how to answer your precepts without getting into the study. I am not a rapture theologist, as far as Satan coming as the fake Jesus, I think that is spelled out relatively clearly. Are you saying Satan is the dragon or the antichrist, or both?

Anthony Joseph
03-30-11, 02:35 AM
If according to the adverse interpretation to my presentment that at the Time of Adam/Eve Cain/Abel there were just four living souls and one smart snake, then please resolve the following quandries with your interpretation:

1. What other peoples, that might find Cain, would slay him?

Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me

2. Who settled this land called Nod - Adam/Eve/Cain lived in the Garden? and Who is this woman Cain married?

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


------


I am more than convinced that the races were made on the sixth day and a specific man was made some time later [some say the eighth day] this man with specific duty to keep his blood line pure so that the Christ Child could come into this age undefiled.

shalom,
mj

p.s. The word for Serpent:

H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.

You know all the characteristics of the serpent are indeed the same characteristics of a man. Selah.

Your presentment could be flawed regarding the number of people in eden at the time of Abel's murder. Do we know for certaintly how old Cain was when he slayed Abel? There could have been other sons and daughters around since Adam and Eve were told to be fruitful and multiply. How many sons and daughters did Adam and Eve have and when were these children born?


The other peoples that may have wanted to slay Cain could have been relatives of Abel; why slay someone who you don't know and who murdered someone you don't know?

What is the definition of Nod?

Cain's wife could have been a sister or a niece since there could have been many decades of "being fruitful" taking place prior to the murder.

What does it mean that Cain "knew" his wife? Perhaps he had a wife already and when he left Eden, he "knew" her. It could mean he had sexual relations with her after wandering as a fugitive and a vagabond in Nod.

Just another perspective offered.

Treefarmer
03-30-11, 03:05 AM
Thank you Treefarmer. Remember that Noah's flood took one year for the waters to abate. That is to tell this former Environmental and Civil Engineer that every bit of plant life would be absolutely dead.

But look I admit I cannot prove that Noah's flood was not worldwide; it is just my opinion. Yehovah wanted the Gibbor Dead.

Kebra Negast the Ethiopian Bible goes into Great detail regarding these Giants and the children that the women bare to these Angels. I know it's not canonized; neither is nature. Yet, the Promise was given 430 years prior to the Law at Sinai; and Yet; Sodom and Gomorrah were found Guilty of Sin. Selah.

Cain was found guilty of Murder. Where was the Law? Selah.

The Man in the garden was a husbandman [farmer]; the mankind at Gen 1:27 were hunters and fishers. No farmers.

Aha, I suspected it.
We are reading different scriptures.
My Bible says that it rained and flooded 40 days (Genesis 7:12 and 17) and that it took 150 days for the flood waters to abate.

My Bible also says that the male and female which God created at Genesis 1:27 were instructed to eat seed bearing herbs and seed yielding fruit trees (Gen. 1:29).
The animals were also designed to be vegetarians, according to Gen. 1:30 of my scripture edition.
There was no killing and no death on earth from what I can tell, because everything was "very good".

Death came as a result of sin, according to my scriptures.
Even after the fall of Adam and Eve they were not instructed to eat animals.
According to my scriptures (KJV) the permission to eat dead animals did not come until after the flood, at Genesis 9:3-4.

The law, being a transcript of God's character, was always there.
It was expressed differently at different times and in different ages, according to the knowledge level of God's created beings and their need to know.

Blessings

Treefarmer
03-30-11, 03:16 AM
MJ

Your talk of various level of heaven remind me of some writing in regards to IRS cases by a man that was a Morman. Don't recall his name but some where I have a copy of his letter to a fellow that was going to trial in a tax case. He didn't heed the mans warning and ended up serving time. Is what you referring to along the same lines in regards to the various levels of heaven. He espoused Ideas about contracts we enter into before entering this plane. FB

That reminds me of the material that is presented in George MERCIER's Invisible Contracts.
George MERCIER's work is based on Mormon theology as far as I know.
Although I admit to never having read any of Joseph Smith's works.
I'm familiar with Mormon theology only from talking with Mormons and reading some of their writings.

Treefarmer
03-30-11, 03:53 AM
If according to the opposing interpretation to my presentment that at the Time of Adam/Eve Cain/Abel there were just four living souls and one smart snake, then please resolve the following quandries with your interpretation:

1. What other peoples, that might find Cain, would slay him?

Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me

2. Who settled this land called Nod - Adam/Eve/Cain lived in the Garden? and Who is this woman Cain married?

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


------


I am more than convinced that the races were made on the sixth day and a specific man was made some time later [some say the eighth day] this man with specific duty to keep his blood line pure so that the Christ Child could come into this age undefiled.

shalom,
mj


I don't think that chapter 4 of Genesis is narrated chronologically.
Daughters are often not mentioned in the OT and I believe that Cain married his sister.
Of course I cannot prove this, because the Bible does not tell us.
Cain's fear in Genesis 4:14 would have been from his own family members.

I agree that the narrative is mysterious in this regard, but I see no reason to believe that there were more than one Adam and Eve.

Interestingly, the Kebra Nagast says that one reason Cain was envious of Abel was because Abel got to marry the sister with the beautiful face, which resembled Cain's.
I don't know which parts, if any, of the Kebra Nagast are inspired.
I don't consider it good evidence.

Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden before they had children.
Who named the land Nod is not specified.
Nod means wandering.

Notice that all the names in chapter 4 are highly symbolical.
Cain means smith.
Abel (Hevel) means breath, vapor.
An interesting factoid:
The second verse of Ecclesiastes echoes Abel's name in the Hebrew. It starts out "hevel havalim".

Blessings

Michael Joseph
03-30-11, 07:50 PM
Your presentment could be flawed regarding the number of people in eden at the time of Abel's murder. Do we know for certaintly how old Cain was when he slayed Abel? There could have been other sons and daughters around since Adam and Eve were told to be fruitful and multiply. How many sons and daughters did Adam and Eve have and when were these children born?


The other peoples that may have wanted to slay Cain could have been relatives of Abel; why slay someone who you don't know and who murdered someone you don't know?

What is the definition of Nod?

Cain's wife could have been a sister or a niece since there could have been many decades of "being fruitful" taking place prior to the murder.

What does it mean that Cain "knew" his wife? Perhaps he had a wife already and when he left Eden, he "knew" her. It could mean he had sexual relations with her after wandering as a fugitive and a vagabond in Nod.

Just another perspective offered.

Anthony Joseph thank you for your participation.

Regarding this question: Do we know for certaintly how old Cain was when he slayed Abel?

Can and Abel were twins and they reached the Age of Majority at the Same time. Said another way, they reached the Age of Accountability at the Same time. I'd say the Age of Accountability for young boys is approximately 12 - 13.


Regarding this question: How many sons and daughters did Adam and Eve have and when were these children born?

I suppose Chavvah could have had 12 other sons and daughters by the time Cain and Abel reached the Age of Accountability.

Regarding this question: What is the definition of Nod?

Seems like a Name to me. If a land is Named someone had to Name it. But for the Edification of the Reader and mine too:

H5113
נוד
nôd
node
The same as H5112; vagrancy; Nod, the land of Cain: - Nod.

H5112
נד נודּ
nôd nôd
node, node
From H5110; exile: - wandering.

Where ever Cain was he was exiled from the garden. Gee, I wonder why any of Adam's Children would have wanted to leave Paradise in the Garden - talk about stupid.


Regarding This: Cain's wife could have been a sister or a niece since there could have been many decades of "being fruitful" taking place prior to the murder.

I do not accept this as a possibility at this time. For the Law of God, Torah, demands that the Slayer be presented to God the same day as the event took place; The Murderer in cold blood is to be killed immediately [in the flesh] and dispatched to Yehovah. Granted the Law of Nature was in effect at this time and now Law at Sinai.

I will also grant there is no time mentioned between Gen 4:7 and 4:8; But that would have had to be one dumb female to leave the Garden for Cain. Women are smarter than men - and they got Man hands down in regard to language and emotions. I don't see it. This seems to me, at least, to be grasping at straws.

Regarding this question: What does it mean that Cain "knew" his wife?

that is a Hebrewism that is a way of saying he had sex without being explicit. Furthermore to marry in the Biblical sense means they had sex. There is no need for any fancy ceremony that is just traditions of man and commercial process.

-----

Eth-ha-awdawm and Chavvah are kicked out of the Garden of Eden some time after Cain. Therefore, either Cain's wife is the dumbest human being to ever walk the Earth - or there were other Men and Women already existing.

Michael Joseph
03-30-11, 10:54 PM
Aha, I suspected it.
We are reading different scriptures.
My Bible says that it rained and flooded 40 days (Genesis 7:12 and 17) and that it took 150 days for the flood waters to abate.

My Bible also says that the male and female which God created at Genesis 1:27 were instructed to eat seed bearing herbs and seed yielding fruit trees (Gen. 1:29).
The animals were also designed to be vegetarians, according to Gen. 1:30 of my scripture edition.
There was no killing and no death on earth from what I can tell, because everything was "very good".

Death came as a result of sin, according to my scriptures.
Even after the fall of Adam and Eve they were not instructed to eat animals.
According to my scriptures (KJV) the permission to eat dead animals did not come until after the flood, at Genesis 9:3-4.



I am reading the manuscripts that is the basis for whatever translation your bible is.

If you know the Hebrew, is not there ample room in the Hebrew to describe the word Thought or Mind? Answer absolutely.

God must have made a mistake then. Why would he have described what you claim is a thought pattern, as Children? I never have heard tell of a man calling his thoughts Children. Have you? And in parable of the Tares the Seed there is "Sperma". Hmmm...

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

G4690
sperma

From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.


Now, I have never heard thoughts called Sperm

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

the woman - chavvah will bring forth the Christ Child; but lets us explore this thought argument a bit in light of this verse.

1. If Snake - I know plenty of women who are not afraid of Snakes.
2. If Snake - I wonder why God did not make man afraid of Snakes.
3. If Devil - I wonder why God did not give Man great hatred against the Devil
4. If Devil - I wonder why God only gave the Woman great hatred against this One.

All four are completely absurd.

so now let us go to the Woman's "Seed" for those who cannot download the Study provided:

H2233
zeh'-rah

From H2232; seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity: - X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time.

Well now that really makes a lot of sense. I will put great hatred between the woman's plants and the devils plants. No that just won't get it. Maybe hatred between the woman's oranges and the devils tomatoes? Hmmmm, that will not get it either will it? But what's this?

Children? That just can't be. Did it say Children? I believe it does say Children.

Adam and Eve were so ashamed they put fig leaves over their head to hide their thoughts/mouth? For shame, for Shame. No, I believe they covered their Groins. And God was so unhappy with their thoughts that he decided to make the womans PAIN at child birth more painful.

Wow, now that really makes sense. Not really. But why would they put those fig leaves over their groins? Oh the mysteries....not really it is actually made quite clear.


-----

Back to Noah...

Noah was perfect in his Pedigree. What, say it ain't so. There were other men and women on that Ark besides the Eight souls that descended directly from Eth-ha-aw-dawm and Chavvah.

You say preposterous right? Not in my bible friend....well lets just see about that....Our Father is awesome. Now to his Word.

Gen 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.


H1320
bâśâr

From H1319; flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man: - body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.

Now, because God made a mistake in his word he needs to tell Noah - make sure you get SEVEN of all the clean animals and TWO of all the unclean animals because you know God meant that by Two of ALL flesh he only included certain flesh.

No there were other men and women on board that Ark.

----

Regarding the Time of Noah's flood it is about one year from the day Noah went in that Ark until the day he came out of that Ark.

Gen 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

Tangent: He had been married for 100 years when the flood started. Continuing..

Animals: Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,


Mankind: Not from Adam: Gen 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Mark this date for those who want to pay close attention to Father's Word:

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.


and just so you get it - there were also non-"aw-dawm-ic" peoples who were not of Eth-ha-aw-dawm:

Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

H1320
bâśâr

From H1319; flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man: - body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.

Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

Got all the animals in and when the other peoples came in Yehovah shut the door.

Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

[Tangent: X- reference this time with Rev. 9:4 - Noah's flood = water; End time flood - Lies - 'and he opened his mouth and a flood of waters issued forth' - Lies - the time is 5 mo. = 150 days.]

H1396
gâbar

A primitive root; to be strong; by implication to prevail, act insolently: - exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

Where did it say the waters were gone after 150 days? No this word "Prevailed" means the waters were RAGING for 150 days.

Gen 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

H2637
châsêr

A primitive root; to lack; by implication to fail, want, lessen: - be abated, bereave, decrease, (cause to) fail, (have) lack, make lower, want.

abated - is bad translation - for this former Civil Engineer knows Hydrologic Systems - the waters began to runoff and that dear reader takes TIME. Considerable time. Because if it is as the average reader thinks [worldwide flood], then most of that Water would need to Evaporate.

but let us continue on to track Noah's condition and keep the time....

Gen 8:5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

Hmmm....what day again did they enter the ark? Keep track now....

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Current Time difference = 10th month, 1st day - 2nd Month, seventeenth day.....that's longer than 150 days dear reader....

but let us continue even further for God's Word does not leave us wanting and it is VERY complete.

Gen 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.


Hmmm. now what is the difference in time : 601st year 1st month, 1st day - 600th year 2nd month, seventeenth day. That seems a bit longer than 150 days friend.

Continuing....on to that one year - just to check to see if we are indeed reading the same - "Bible".

Gen 8:14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

Whoa - now that just can't be....I was incorrect. It was OVER a year.

Time: 601st year, 2nd month, 27th day - 600th year, 2nd month, 17th day.

Is to tell this scholar of God's Word that Noah was on that Ark for 1 year and ten days.


Gen 8:15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,
Gen 8:16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
Gen 8:17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh,

in case you have forgotten what flesh means:

H1320
bâśâr

From H1319; flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man: - body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.


continuing..Gen 8:17 both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

-

Death entered the World in the First Age at the Rebellion of Ha Satan.

Michael Joseph
03-30-11, 11:12 PM
I don't think that chapter 4 of Genesis is narrated chronologically.
Daughters are often not mentioned in the OT and I believe that Cain married his sister.
Of course I cannot prove this, because the Bible does not tell us.
Cain's fear in Genesis 4:14 would have been from his own family members.

I agree that the narrative is mysterious in this regard, but I see no reason to believe that there were more than one Adam and Eve.

Interestingly, the Kebra Nagast says that one reason Cain was envious of Abel was because Abel got to marry the sister with the beautiful face, which resembled Cain's.
I don't know which parts, if any, of the Kebra Nagast are inspired.
I don't consider it good evidence.

Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden before they had children.
Who named the land Nod is not specified.
Nod means wandering.

Notice that all the names in chapter 4 are highly symbolical.
Cain means smith.
Abel (Hevel) means breath, vapor.
An interesting factoid:
The second verse of Ecclesiastes echoes Abel's name in the Hebrew. It starts out "hevel havalim".

Blessings

I do not rely on Kebra Negast at all except that it is a 2nd Witness to the Giants in the Earth and the Children the Women bore to those fallen Angels.

In the Book of Enoch - included in many bibles prior to the Council at Nice - says Who is this one who cries day and night? - That is Abel who cries out for vengeance.

Stop and think of all of the lineage that would have come thru Abel that was cut-off by Cain. Murder is a terrible terrible thing.

Axe
03-31-11, 12:48 AM
Gen 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

H1320
bâśâr

From H1319; flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man: - body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.

Hi MJ,

My hebrew was a little rusty so I dusted this off and found your translation incomplete.

Flesh
בָּשָׂר
bä·sär'

1) flesh
a) of the body
1) of humans
2) of animals
b) the body itself
c) male organ of generation (euphemism)
d) kindred, blood-relations
e) flesh as frail or erring (man against God)
f) all living things
g) animals
h) mankind
Used - (a) of the flesh of the living body, whether of men or of beasts. Gen 41:2,19
(context)Gen 9:15 And I will remember2142 my covenant1285, which between me and you and every living2416 creature5315 of all flesh1320; and the waters4325 shall no more5750 become a flood3999 to destroy7843 all flesh1320.

And I'm a flood of the whole earth guy; The Scripture and the math supports both that the whole earth was flooded and that only Noah and his family were on the ark.

Genesis 9:19 says that the "whole earth overspread."
This plain declaration (Genesis 10:32) leaves no possibility that any other people survived the worldwide Flood. All the world’s present peoples are descendants of Noah’s three sons and their wives. The gene pool from these six individuals (all originally from Adam and Eve) provided far more than enough genetic variational potential to account for the wide range in national and tribal characteristics which have surfaced since the Flood. The world’s present population of approximately five billion people, likewise, could easily have been developed in approximately 4000 years. An average annual growth rate of 1 2% (only one-fourth the present rate), or an average family size of only 2.5 children per family, could easily accomplish this.

There is a specific Hebrew word for a local flood. The word used in the bible demands that the flood be of global proportions.

Along with:

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the [I]earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Scripture indicates only Noah and his family remained. This would not be the case if it was a small local flood.

I also believe that just because The Lord repeated, doesn't mean he made a mistake or is talking about something else.
MANY times in Scripture things are repeated in the very next sentence. If your thesis is true, then in all of those instances
he is referring to something other than what is implied in the first sentence.

Thanks again for the thread.

Michael Joseph
03-31-11, 01:59 AM
Hi MJ,


Flesh
בָּשָׂר
bä·sär'

1) flesh
a) of the body
1) of humans
2) of animals
b) the body itself
c) male organ of generation (euphemism)
d) kindred, blood-relations
e) flesh as frail or erring (man against God)
f) all living things
g) animals
h) mankind
Used - (a) of the flesh of the living body, whether of men or of beasts. Gen 41:2,19
(context)Gen 9:15 And I will remember2142 my covenant1285, which between me and you and every living2416 creature5315 of all flesh1320; and the waters4325 shall no more5750 become a flood3999 to destroy7843 all flesh1320.

And I'm a flood of the whole earth guy; The Scripture and the math supports both that the whole earth was flooded and that only Noah and his family were on the ark.

Genesis 9:19 says that the "whole earth overspread."
This plain declaration (Genesis 10:32) leaves no possibility that any other people survived the worldwide Flood. All the world’s present peoples are descendants of Noah’s three sons and their wives. The gene pool from these six individuals (all originally from Adam and Eve) provided far more than enough genetic variational potential to account for the wide range in national and tribal characteristics which have surfaced since the Flood. The world’s present population of approximately five billion people, likewise, could easily have been developed in approximately 4000 years. An average annual growth rate of 1 2% (only one-fourth the present rate), or an average family size of only 2.5 children per family, could easily accomplish this.

There is a specific Hebrew word for a local flood. The word used in the bible demands that the flood be of global proportions.

Along with:

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the [I]earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Scripture indicates only Noah and his family remained. This would not be the case if it was a small local flood.

Axe thank you for your response.

First this:

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

H8435 - translated in KJV - generations
תּלדה תּולדה
tôledâh tôledâh
to-led-aw', to-led-aw'
From H3205; (plural only) descent, that is, family; (figuratively) history: - birth, generations.


H8549 - translated in KJV perfect
תּמים
tâmı̂ym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

He could show a perfect lineage back to The Man in the Garden. Notice Noah is said to be Perfect in his Generations in contrast to the beginning of the Chapter 6 - we find Angels coming to Earth and having Sex with women and creating hybrids.

-----

Gen 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

Commentary: Now for the redundancy - It did say two of EVERY sort. I mean we are talking about animals, there are Clean animals too right?

Gen 6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Commentary: Because in verse nineteen apparently Noah must be dense because now Yehovah tells him "hey, were you paying attention, I said take also two of these"....because in v. 19 you must not have understood correctly.

Gen 6:21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

Commentary: Wow look at that "food that is to be eaten" - Noah knew the health laws.

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Commentary: Now we got Clean beasts? Come on, now I thought Yehovah said take EVERY flesh on the Ark by two's. I mean clearly flesh is beast right?

H929
behêmâh

From an unused root (probably meaning to be mute); properly a dumb beast; especially any large quadruped or animal (often collectively): - beast, cattle.

cattle can't be flesh. No wait it is flesh. Hmmm.


These are the ones that Eth-ha-aw-dawm named. Farming animals. Because Eth-ha-aw-dawm was a farmer. He was not a hunter or a fisher. Just as Noah was a farmer [husbandman].



Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Commentary: Well now we got fowls by sevens. I thought there was to be just two of all flesh. Well I guess fowls don't constitute flesh either. But a fowl is an animal right? And if we are to go with the assertion that flesh was an animal - hmmmmm.

So lets check out fowl:

H5775

‛ôph
ofe
From H5774; a bird (as covered with feathers, or rather as covering with wings), often collective: - bird, that flieth, flying, fowl.

Noah must have really been confused : Is it by Two Yehovah or is it by Seven? No, Noah was not confused at all.


Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Tangent: There is that confusing word again: "Seed". Here God must be talking about doctrine.

H2233
zeh'-rah

From H2232; seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity: - X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time.

Now, Noah must have been really confused.

I cannot substantively debate whether or not the entire globe was flooded or just a small portion of it. I think the latter. As I think the writer intends all of the "known world". Yet I cannot prove it. What I can prove is the waters submerged the land for over ONE WHOLE YEAR. And it takes a long time to grow an olive tree. If it was a global flood well you do the math.

Gen 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Commentary: But these in 7:14 did not go in 2x2 did they?


Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Commentary: Show me where it says that the animals received the "breath of life". I can only see that Man receives the "breath of life" - Ruach.

----

Regarding 9:19

Overspread does not mean these were Progenitors of the Entire World. That is absurd. What? Am i to now believe that from one race springs all that we have today. Lets be practical.

H5310
נפץ
nâphats
naw-fats'
A primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter: - be beaten in sunder, break (in pieces), broken, dash (in pieces), cause to be discharged, dispersed, be overspread, scatter.


The Point of the Flood: Destroy the Hybrids

Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Gen 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark

Commentary: I cannot find mention here that this flood is global.


I contend that they that were with Noah were also two of all the races. For it is an Impossibility to have all the races spring from just one. And in fact Noah and his sons and their wives all had Perfect Pedigrees back to Eth-ha-aw-dawm and Chavvah.

And any geneticist who is worth his weight in salt will confirm this FACT. Just like for Evolution to be true it HAS to be an ongoing process. Where are the 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 kinds - show me the mixes of kind. I don't see it.

Did you get your Hebrew from here? (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=hebrew&stnm=01320)

1a1 and 1h do the trick. Thank you. I however do not use this source as it is most times flat out wrong. Rather, I use it sparingly.

but thank you for it. As clearly Just so Noah would be REALLY confused, he said take two of ALL animals [flesh] on board but then take SEVEN of these animals and just so you don't get it wrong don't forget to take two of These animals. A bit of a stretch in my book.


A critical thinker has to consider the parameters of why the flood was necessary. And that was to Kill the hybrids. Again, while I cannot prove it, I maintain the flood was not global but local to the area. Yet if it was global Noah carried all the races on that Ark and he also carried the Seed Line of Eth-ha-aw-dawm and Chavvah - to keep it Pure - all the way to Yehoshuah.

Now if the Purpose of the Flood is to kill ALL of the Giants and the flood was worldwide- please explain Goliath, Og, Sihon and other Giants? Again, I cannot prove my position, thus I have prefaced it with a notice it is my opinion ONLY.

Michael Joseph
03-31-11, 03:02 AM
Let us go now to the Master's Direct Testimony regarding the offspring of the Old Serpent.

This is the Parable

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


This is the Explanation of the Parable - by Yehoshuah - in Private

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

Commentary: The Creation of Eth-ha-aw-dawm, the first Adam and Chavvah - by The Word [Yehoshuah] all things were made.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


So what is this "seed" at Matt 13:38?

G4690
σπέρμα
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.


But did Yehoshuah come right out and say "Children". Well.......I think he did. Let's go check it out....


G5207
υἱός
uihos
hwee-os'
Apparently a primary word; a “son” (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son.


Now, clearly What Yehoshuah REALLY meant here is that these follow some sort of doctrine - thought process - I mean it says that right. I mean Yehoshuah was telling what the Parable meant wasn't he?

Now for someone who would say Yehoshuah was speaking again in a Parable - I soundly reject that assertion- Yehoshuah was with Precision and care explaining the meaning to his Disciples. He spoke to them in private and he uses language that my ten year old can comprehend.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

G3789
ὄφις
ophis
of'-is
Probably from G3700 (through the idea of sharpness of vision); a snake, figuratively (as a type of sly cunning) an artful malicious person, especially Satan: - serpent.

-----

I think I have nailed these "tares" quite well - Sons of Cain = Kenites. However, after Yehoshuah - Salvation [the Shua] is open to whomsoever will. Even one who descended from that wicked one. These are NOT farmers - they are cursed from the Land. Lets see what kind of work these do.

1Ch 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

H7017
קיני קיני
qêynı̂y qı̂ynı̂y
kay-nee', kee-nee'
Patronymic from H7014; a Kenite or member of the tribe of Kajin: [Cain] - Kenite.

Kajin - Cain, Kenite (-s).

Jabez is a City in Judah. Here we go Yehudah call themselves Jews. But these dwell in and among Yehudah and they too are "residents of Judea" but they are NOT of the house of Yehudah. But they do lie and say they are.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

G4864
συναγωγή
sunagōgē
soon-ag-o-gay'
From (the reduplicated form of) G4863; an assemblage of persons; specifically a Jewish “synagogue” (the meeting or the place); by analogy a Christian church: - assembly, congregation, synagogue.

G4567
Σατανᾶς
Satanas
sat-an-as'
Of Chaldee origin corresponding to G4566 (with the definite article affixed); the accuser, that is, the devil: - Satan.


That old Serpent.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

------

Jer 35:2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, [a Kenite] and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the LORD, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.

Jer 35:6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

Commentary: Do your work - If you will trace the roots you will find Jonadab means the "greater Yehovah". There is one who wants to sit on the Mercy Seat - he Used to cover it.

Jer 35:7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.

H2233
זרע
zera‛
zeh'-rah
From H2232; seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity: - X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time.

but what's this, in the same verse, do not plant in the ground. Why? They are cursed from the ground - a Mark on Cain and his posterity.

Jer 35:10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.

Jer 35:13 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the LORD.

Jer 35:16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:

Jer 35:19 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.


forever is a bad translation - better until the end of this Flesh Age.

Anthony Joseph
03-31-11, 03:25 AM
Anthony Joseph thank you for your participation.

Regarding this question: Do we know for certaintly how old Cain was when he slayed Abel?

Can and Abel were twins and they reached the Age of Majority at the Same time. Said another way, they reached the Age of Accountability at the Same time. I'd say the Age of Accountability for young boys is approximately 12 - 13.


Regarding this question: How many sons and daughters did Adam and Eve have and when were these children born?

I suppose Chavvah could have had 12 other sons and daughters by the time Cain and Abel reached the Age of Accountability.

Regarding this question: What is the definition of Nod?

Seems like a Name to me. If a land is Named someone had to Name it. But for the Edification of the Reader and mine too:

H5113
נוד
nôd
node
The same as H5112; vagrancy; Nod, the land of Cain: - Nod.

H5112
נד נודּ
nôd nôd
node, node
From H5110; exile: - wandering.

Where ever Cain was he was exiled from the garden. Gee, I wonder why any of Adam's Children would have wanted to leave Paradise in the Garden - talk about stupid.


Regarding This: Cain's wife could have been a sister or a niece since there could have been many decades of "being fruitful" taking place prior to the murder.

I do not accept this as a possibility at this time. For the Law of God, Torah, demands that the Slayer be presented to God the same day as the event took place; The Murderer in cold blood is to be killed immediately [in the flesh] and dispatched to Yehovah. Granted the Law of Nature was in effect at this time and now Law at Sinai.

I will also grant there is no time mentioned between Gen 4:7 and 4:8; But that would have had to be one dumb female to leave the Garden for Cain. Women are smarter than men - and they got Man hands down in regard to language and emotions. I don't see it. This seems to me, at least, to be grasping at straws.

Regarding this question: What does it mean that Cain "knew" his wife?

that is a Hebrewism that is a way of saying he had sex without being explicit. Furthermore to marry in the Biblical sense means they had sex. There is no need for any fancy ceremony that is just traditions of man and commercial process.

-----

Eth-ha-awdawm and Chavvah are kicked out of the Garden of Eden some time after Cain. Therefore, either Cain's wife is the dumbest human being to ever walk the Earth - or there were other Men and Women already existing.

The fact that they were twins doesn't answer the question of what age they were when the murder occurred. Just because you view the age of accountability to be 12-13 doesn't mean that was when Cain decided to murder Abel. It also doesn't tell us how many other sons and daughters were alive at the time and what their ages were. Do you have that information?

You say I am "grasping at straws" and the explanation offered by you is that "Women are smarter than men - and they got Man hands down in regard to language and emotions." That's it? Are you kidding? I sense a little feminist propoganda within that statement; you don't buy into that do you? If that's your argument, it is weak at best.

You say that Cain's wife would have to be the "dumbest human being to ever walk the Earth" in order for her to choose be with her husband wherever he was banished to; could that not be considered loyalty to one's husband rather than stupidity?

If you want to talk stupid, let's talk about the decision to not listen to Almighty God when he commanded Adam and Eve to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That is about the stupidest thing ever done in the history of earth since it turned a perfect and everlasting paradise existence into a daily burdening toil and an eventual death which was avoidable had they just obeyed God to begin with. I see Cain's wife's decision as paling in comparison to that of her mother and father.

Your further assertion that the land of "Nod" must have been settled by "others" since it had "a name" is also reaching. Perhaps it was just a word used to describe the land of wandering. You give no support of the claim that the land must have been settled by "others" other than the assertion that it is named "Nod" and these supposed "foreign settlers" must have named it.

The "straws" are now in your soda.

Treefarmer
03-31-11, 03:54 AM
I am reading the manuscripts that is the basis for whatever translation your bible is.

If you know the Hebrew, is not there ample room in the Hebrew to describe the word Thought or Mind? Answer absolutely.

God must have made a mistake then. Why would he have described what you claim is a thought pattern, as Children? I never have heard tell of a man calling his thoughts Children. Have you? And in parable of the Tares the Seed there is "Sperma". Hmmm...

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

G4690
sperma

From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.


Now, I have never heard thoughts called Sperm

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

the woman - chavvah will bring forth the Christ Child; but lets us explore this thought argument a bit in light of this verse.

1. If Snake - I know plenty of women who are not afraid of Snakes.
2. If Snake - I wonder why God did not make man afraid of Snakes.
3. If Devil - I wonder why God did not give Man great hatred against the Devil
4. If Devil - I wonder why God only gave the Woman great hatred against this One.

All four are completely absurd.

.

You've lost me completely Michael Joseph, I have no idea what you are commenting on or what your point may be.
You may be confusing my comments with somebody else's, because I have not mentioned anything about thought patterns or thoughts being children.

When you speak of a first age, are you referring to the Mormon doctrine which teaches that the humans of this world were previously angels and God made them forget their previous state of being for the purpose of some test or experience in this world?

Axe
03-31-11, 03:56 AM
Did you get your Hebrew from here?

No actually I didn't.

<sigh> I haven't the energy to rebut all this tonight.

Suffice it to say that we disagree again. And I do believe the Lord
had to be clear maybe not for Noah but for us. You know, all of mankind
that would only have this book to know him.

Look, it's Occams razor again. So much has to be true for what you say
to be the case. If He meant man, he would have said man. The context
of the entire chapter is the same.

If I find myself with an extra few hours that I have nothing else to do with
I will come back and specifically take your response apart one piece at a time.

I don't know about how fruitful it will be though. I mean, if the Lord saying
"the whole earth" to you doesn't mean "the whole earth" then I don't know what
I could possibly say to help you see things differently.

We disagree. Interesting discussion though. Thank you.

Michael Joseph
03-31-11, 04:38 AM
The fact that they were twins doesn't answer the question of what age they were when the murder occurred. Just because you view the age of accountability to be 12-13 doesn't mean that was when Cain decided to murder Abel. It also doesn't tell us how many other sons and daughters were alive at the time and what their ages were. Do you have that information?

You say I am "grasping at straws" and the explanation offered by you is that "Women are smarter than men - and they got Man hands down in regard to language and emotions." That's it? Are you kidding? I sense a little feminist propoganda within that statement; you don't buy into that do you? If that's your argument, it is weak at best.

You say that Cain's wife would have to be the "dumbest human being to ever walk the Earth" in order for her to choose be with her husband wherever he was banished to; could that not be considered loyalty to one's husband rather than stupidity?

If you want to talk stupid, let's talk about the decision to not listen to Almighty God when he commanded Adam and Eve to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That is about the stupidest thing ever done in the history of earth since it turned a perfect and everlasting paradise existence into a daily burdening toil and an eventual death which was avoidable had they just obeyed God to begin with. I see Cain's wife's decision as paling in comparison to that of her mother and father.

Your further assertion that the land of "Nod" must have been settled by "others" since it had "a name" is also reaching. Perhaps it was just a word used to describe the land of wandering. You give no support of the claim that the land must have been settled by "others" other than the assertion that it is named "Nod" and these supposed "foreign settlers" must have named it.

The "straws" are now in your soda.

To me if I was the "supposed" woman in your assertion, I would have told Cain, Hit the road Jack - nice knowin' you. But that's just me. And the "supposed" woman is not in the manuscripts.

Agreed that we do not exactly know the Age of Accountability; yet they both appeared before the Ever Living at the Same time. Now I have children and I have noticed in my ten year old that she has already started to ask difficult questions. As such, I'd say a child of 12-13 would do it. but then again, maybe I have higher expectations.

If I am to accept that Cain/Abel were 40 somethings before they FIRST started to bring their presentments before Yehovah; well, I just don't buy that.

Agreed it was not smart for those two to disobey the Ever Living. Yet, it really puzzles me why Cain is with his own geneology and Amazingly enough Adam is not in it. That is really Strange, don't you think? My daddy is in my Geneology. And when we see Adam's Geneology Cain is not in his. Now that is really strange to me.

Your taking this personal. Why? I did not accuse you. I speak to this doctrine. I have given numerous cites in Scripture to back my doctrine. Should you like to bring forth Scripture then I would examine it before my Court to see if it holds merit; otherwise; I dismiss with prejudice. Yet there is no need to take things personal. If you want to call me a Son of a @##$ I really don't care. I have brought my offering before this assembly with Numerous cites. So then let the Reader decide for themselves.

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Boy I wonder where Cain got an attitude against God like that? I mean to talk to the Ever Living like this?

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Commentary: Yep Cain Loved Abel. Wonder where he got all his Love from? Perhaps Adam/Eve and their children? I doubt it. For they at least were with Great Shame. Not Cain - he is downright repugnant with the Ever Living - "Am I my Brother's Keeper?"...

1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

of is Progeny

G1537

A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.


Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I mean Cain asked Abel to go into the Field and then he Killed him - that is premeditated murder - and then with a repugnant response to Yehovah.

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Commentary: What a LIAR - I guess Adam/Eve taught him that. I mean since they walked with God they must have taught him [Cain] to Lie, right?

----

Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Who are all of these that Cain is afraid of? I mean According to the Manuscripts there is just Eth-ha-aw-dawm Chavvah? Of course if one compreheds the sixth day creation of the races - he knew with his position/attitude he [Cain] would not be well received.

-----

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


I suppose these two verses are out of order. I mean it says Cain left and went to live in the land of Nod. And apparently in those days, cities were built for just two people. Even in my day, that is called a house.

But, yet again, without having to make up all sorts of "others" like sisters and the like....that are not in the manuscripts, Cain went to this land EAST of Eden; and,

THEN he knew his wife. Which meant he had sex with her and I imagine nine months later a baby was born.


If I am to hold on to the dogma that Eth-ha-aw-dawm and Chavvah are only two people alive then I have to create a daughter of Chavvah. Or, at least hold out the possibility. It is not in the manuscripts so I flatly deny it. It does not meet my rules of evidence.

And then into Cain's geneology. Where is Eth-ha-aw-dawm [Adam]?

-----

But no, we know that Eth-ha-aw-dawm passed down the information that he had obtained in his walks with the Ever Living and we Find later Enoch the Seventh from Eth-ha-aw-dawm - gee where is Cain? - A preacher in Righteousness. And Yehovah Loved Enoch so much he took him as Elijah in the Whirlwind and he did not see death of the flesh.

-----

In summation i do not cling to "possibilities". It is in the manuscripts or it is not. And clearly the men and women created on the sixth day are documented [aw-dawm or mankind]. These are Hunters and Fishers. And then there is one created Later [eth-ha-aw-dawm] who is a Husbandman [farmer].

-----

My opinion is based on Evidence as presented that you dear reader can go and check behind me. As per the first post - a Pre 65 Strong's Concordance and a Green's Interlinear are sufficient tools to gain a very strong foundation in the Word. As such, I suggest to the Reader to not trust in ONE single word I have written. Go make up your own mind with your own research. Then come to the table and share - but do be careful and provide your position from the Word itself.

I have strict rules in my court. I hope you do too.

Michael Joseph
03-31-11, 04:41 AM
You've lost me completely Michael Joseph, I have no idea what you are commenting on or what your point may be.
You may be confusing my comments with somebody else's, because I have not mentioned anything about thought patterns or thoughts being children.

When you speak of a first age, are you referring to the Mormon doctrine which teaches that the humans of this world were previously angels and God made them forget their previous state of being for the purpose of some test or experience in this world?

I am not sure you mean by Mormon Doctrine. Yet the Word of God shows with absolute assurance there was an Age before this Flesh Age.

There are actually Three Ages. We are in the Second and there is Yet one to come. And Yes, Yehovah's Word details all three. So perhaps a study of the Ages is appropriate.

Maybe I have posts mixed up. I was told today by someone that what the "seed" represents doctrine. Don't take this personal, but when I respond to a post, I am not responding to you.

I am not your judge. I am responding to the Doctrine and the Ideas that are presented in this arena for consideration.

Is that fair?

Michael Joseph
03-31-11, 04:55 AM
No actually I didn't.

<sigh> I haven't the energy to rebut all this tonight.

Suffice it to say that we disagree again. And I do believe the Lord
had to be clear maybe not for Noah but for us. You know, all of mankind
that would only have this book to know him.

Look, it Occams razor again. So much has to be true for what you say
to be the case. If He meant man, he would have said man. The context
of the entire chapter is the same.

If I find myself with an extra few hours that I have nothing else to do with
I will come back and specifically take your response apart one piece at a time.

I don't know about how fruitful it will be though. I mean, if the Lord saying
"the whole earth" to you doesn't mean "the whole earth" then I don't know what
I could possible say to help you see things differently.

We disagree. Interesting discussion though. Thank you.


Thank you. I told you I cannot prove my opinion. So if you want to try to persuade me fine, yet my opinion stands as mine and mine only and I do not really see it changing because I have forged it thru years of careful study.

Would you consider that the Translations - modern day that is - are lacking? I laugh very hard when one tells me that the KJV is the true Word. No, the KJV is a translation. So if one wants to dig a bit deeper and go to the foundational basis of these modern day translations, then we can discuss what Yehovah meant.

Fact is, the KJV is a very good translation. Yet it has many errors. So I decided one day to put the Translations away. Stop listening to the good pastors and do my own work. It took me a month to read gen 1-6 in Hebrew; but it pays off. Whereas, I used to struggle with Scripture, it flows quite nicely for me and I do not have to make up possibilities for the Word in effort to comprehend.

I found God when I put down this Book and looked up. Then I looked at myself and saw Phi written into my own flesh. I see the Spiral and know, I am Created. I study the Word to gain the "Knowledge of God".

I know my God and my God knows me - its personal, yes? I have broadcast this opinion of mine based on Scripture - multiple cites - and the Reader is Cautioned to do their own work. Accept it or Reject it. To this man it really does not matter. For I am not the judge anyways and my opinion in regard to another mans beliefs matter not before the Ever Living.

Let me say that the foregoing is not an accusation against you Axe or any other reader it is simply the Truth. I sail my own boat and I will be the only one standing before the Ever Living on that day. I don't imagine the good pastor will want to stand in for me? I don't imagine Yehovah would allow that anyways. As such, Let the Reader take Caution to take NO Trust in this man or any other Man's writings.

I have made the foregoing presentments in good faith with the hope that someone will be helped. Yehovah be blessed. As I know all men and women of honor do. So I appreciate all who has engaged this discourse.

Shalom,
mj

Axe
03-31-11, 08:48 AM
Yet, it really puzzles me why Cain is with his own geneology and Amazingly enough Adam is not in it.

Out of curiosity MJ, can you give me the chapter and verse where you are reading Cain's geneology?

Thank You.


Accept it or Reject it.

I'm not in a position to reject it. I know that I don't know everything, which is why I engage with you on this.

It seems you do not share those feelings, (I could be wrong) but nevertheless I do not contribute here because
I think I'm right about everything and am just trying to argue with anyone that disagrees.

I do it because discovery of the truth of God's word is an irresistible compulsion for me, and I know that I can
always learn more. As I have already mentioned, I am VERY careful about what I'll entertain as far as doctrine
if it is radically different from what I currently understand the truth to be.

I love the moment of discovery. That moment when my eyes are opened to a truth that is new to me.

It is because I love it, I know that I am vulnerable to "tickling ears", which is why I'm doubly vigilant about
any such ideas. I have a decent ability to create a case, and anything "new" that gets in at this point has to
go through a very looonngg filter that involves bringing my entire intellect to bear on the complete structure of
any assertions that challenge my spiritual understandings.

I say all that to explain that my discussion is not malicious or arguing for sake of arguing. It is simply a recon
because a "truth" can and will withstand attack from any angle at any time.

You have the right to your opinion, and don't take anything I say as "trying" to convince you of something else.
I challenge it because I want to know the answer myself.

Anthony Joseph
03-31-11, 06:28 PM
To me if I was the "supposed" woman in your assertion, I would have told Cain, Hit the road Jack - nice knowin' you. But that's just me. And the "supposed" woman is not in the manuscripts.

Agreed that we do not exactly know the Age of Accountability; yet they both appeared before the Ever Living at the Same time. Now I have children and I have noticed in my ten year old that she has already started to ask difficult questions. As such, I'd say a child of 12-13 would do it. but then again, maybe I have higher expectations.

If I am to accept that Cain/Abel were 40 somethings before they FIRST started to bring their presentments before Yehovah; well, I just don't buy that.

Agreed it was not smart for those two to disobey the Ever Living. Yet, it really puzzles me why Cain is with his own geneology and Amazingly enough Adam is not in it. That is really Strange, don't you think? My daddy is in my Geneology. And when we see Adam's Geneology Cain is not in his. Now that is really strange to me.

Your taking this personal. Why? I did not accuse you. I speak to this doctrine. I have given numerous cites in Scripture to back my doctrine. Should you like to bring forth Scripture then I would examine it before my Court to see if it holds merit; otherwise; I dismiss with prejudice. Yet there is no need to take things personal. If you want to call me a Son of a @##$ I really don't care. I have brought my offering before this assembly with Numerous cites. So then let the Reader decide for themselves.

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Boy I wonder where Cain got an attitude against God like that? I mean to talk to the Ever Living like this?

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Commentary: Yep Cain Loved Abel. Wonder where he got all his Love from? Perhaps Adam/Eve and their children? I doubt it. For they at least were with Great Shame. Not Cain - he is downright repugnant with the Ever Living - "Am I my Brother's Keeper?"...

1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

of is Progeny

G1537

A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.


Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I mean Cain asked Abel to go into the Field and then he Killed him - that is premeditated murder - and then with a repugnant response to Yehovah.

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Commentary: What a LIAR - I guess Adam/Eve taught him that. I mean since they walked with God they must have taught him [Cain] to Lie, right?

----

Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Who are all of these that Cain is afraid of? I mean According to the Manuscripts there is just Eth-ha-aw-dawm Chavvah? Of course if one compreheds the sixth day creation of the races - he knew with his position/attitude he [Cain] would not be well received.

-----

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


I suppose these two verses are out of order. I mean it says Cain left and went to live in the land of Nod. And apparently in those days, cities were built for just two people. Even in my day, that is called a house.

But, yet again, without having to make up all sorts of "others" like sisters and the like....that are not in the manuscripts, Cain went to this land EAST of Eden; and,

THEN he knew his wife. Which meant he had sex with her and I imagine nine months later a baby was born.


If I am to hold on to the dogma that Eth-ha-aw-dawm and Chavvah are only two people alive then I have to create a daughter of Chavvah. Or, at least hold out the possibility. It is not in the manuscripts so I flatly deny it. It does not meet my rules of evidence.

And then into Cain's geneology. Where is Eth-ha-aw-dawm [Adam]?

-----

But no, we know that Eth-ha-aw-dawm passed down the information that he had obtained in his walks with the Ever Living and we Find later Enoch the Seventh from Eth-ha-aw-dawm - gee where is Cain? - A preacher in Righteousness. And Yehovah Loved Enoch so much he took him as Elijah in the Whirlwind and he did not see death of the flesh.

-----

In summation i do not cling to "possibilities". It is in the manuscripts or it is not. And clearly the men and women created on the sixth day are documented [aw-dawm or mankind]. These are Hunters and Fishers. And then there is one created Later [eth-ha-aw-dawm] who is a Husbandman [farmer].

-----

My opinion is based on Evidence as presented that you dear reader can go and check behind me. As per the first post - a Pre 65 Strong's Concordance and a Green's Interlinear are sufficient tools to gain a very strong foundation in the Word. As such, I suggest to the Reader to not trust in ONE single word I have written. Go make up your own mind with your own research. Then come to the table and share - but do be careful and provide your position from the Word itself.

I have strict rules in my court. I hope you do too.

I don't see anything in my post that would imply that I am taking anything "personally". You should know by now, and by our past discussions, that I do not take your discourse or responses as personal attacks and I hope you view me and my offerings in the same light.

You may notice that your writings are not "soft-balling" or "tap dancing" in any way; you have no problem with telling it like it is. I think that when you find someone else who debates with you in that same manner, you get a little put off or see it as "taking it personally".

Just an observation and you know I hold your offerings and contributions in the highest regard even though we may not agree on some issues. I think we agree more often than you think.

Anthony Joseph
03-31-11, 06:53 PM
So, to get back to the topic, the "supposed" woman is mentioned - it is his wife. The fact that the scriptures say he "knew" her in Nod does not mean he didn't "know" her before. Can you provide support for the interpretation that Cain took and "knew" his wife for the first time in Nod by the manuscripts?

Michael Joseph
03-31-11, 09:28 PM
I don't see anything in my post that would imply that I am taking anything "personally". You should know by now, and by our past discussions, that I do not take your discourse or responses as personal attacks and I hope you view me and my offerings in the same light.

You may notice that your writings are not "soft-balling" or "tap dancing" in any way; you have no problem with telling it like it is. I think that when you find someone else who debates with you in that same manner, you get a little put off or see it as "taking it personally".

Just an observation and you know I hold your offerings and contributions in the highest regard even though we may not agree on some issues. I think we agree more often than you think.

Thank you for that.

Michael Joseph
03-31-11, 09:39 PM
So, to get back to the topic, the "supposed" woman is mentioned - it is his wife. The fact that the scriptures say he "knew" her in Nod does not mean he didn't "know" her before. Can you provide support for the interpretation that Cain took and "knew" his wife for the first time in Nod by the manuscripts?

See that this supposed woman is not in the manuscripts as Eth-ha-aw-dawm's daughter. As such that "possibility" does not meet my rules of evidence. - This does. (http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showthread.php?68-Can-God-die&p=1285&viewfull=1#post1285)

However, what is in the manuscripts is the creation of male/female [men and women] hunters and fishers on the sixth day. And then later, some say the eighth day, A farmer - Adam - or Eth-ha-aw-dawm. Or said another way - The Man. Why is Adam - The Man? Because out of his loins come the 2nd Adam - and the 2nd Adam - is what Gen 1:27 refers to - in the image of God created he Him [Yehoshuah].

Now, this agrees quite nicely with the manuscripts and i do not have to invent a new possibility so that my dogma may be justified.

----

But to your point - given your construction - Notice the polysyndeton "and"? Go and check out Gen 1. See how the Spirit moved "And". Each new thought incorporated by reference the original thought. That shows building in succession.

And, Cain was kicked from the Garden; and, Cain knew his wife; and, she conceived; and, bare Enoch; and,.....those are ordered events.

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

So if I am to accept this dogma that Cain's wife is his sister, then I have to create what is not in the manuscripts or even the modern day translations. That, i am unwilling to do.

Michael Joseph
03-31-11, 10:11 PM
Out of curiosity MJ, can you give me the chapter and verse where you are reading Cain's geneology?

I appreciate you Axe. Cain's geneology is found at: Gen 4:17

Gen 5 - goes like this:

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Commentary: In the likeness of God he created he Him = Yehoshuah = 2nd Adam = Eth-ha-aw-dawm; this agrees with 1:27 and 1:3. The generations of "Adam" is a horrible translation. This should just be mankind.

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Commentary: These are the races of mankind created at 1:27; not in the image of God, but in their image in first Age. See the confusion - he called their name Adam - horrible translation - should have been - mankind. By the way, for those who think the KJV is the only translation - he called THEIR name Adam. Yet people cling to traditions.

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Commentary: This starts the geneology of The Man. Again horrible Translation here and it is so obvious to the critical reader. How could THEIR name be Adam and then at 5:3 his name is Adam and there is only supposed to be one Adam. I mean, come on dear reader....time to put the thinking cap on.

I do not see Cain here?

------

Now to switch gears and get back to Noah for a second. I was praying last night around 3am and this was given to me. So I hope to share it with you readers and you weigh it in the balances.

Court is in Session - let us see if this argument concerning Noah's flood holds water:

Two possibilities:

1. Global flood or local flood
2. Eight souls on the Ark or two of each race on the Ark. Probably much more than two; but we will get there.

I propose that there were many other Souls on the Ark besides Noah, his sons and their wives. Let me proceed with my presentation:

For your consideration let us now go to Baalam - a prophet of Yehovah who lived many, many years after Noah's flood. Now, I have proposed that the Kenite is the sons of Cain and that these are NOT descendants of Noah as has been proposed by others.

Let us now go to Scripture:

Num 24:21 And he looked on the Kenites, and took up his parable, and said, Strong is thy dwellingplace, and thou puttest thy nest in a rock.

Num 24:22 Nevertheless the Kenite shall be wasted, until Asshur shall carry thee away captive.


To the serious Scripture Scholar their mind should be racing to Deuteronomy 32, The Great Song of Moses. "Their rock is not as our Rock"....

But I digress, let us check out who these Kenites that Baalam is prophecying about: Remember this is AFTER the flood Reader - keep up:

H7017
קיני קיני
qêynı̂y qı̂ynı̂y
kay-nee', kee-nee'
Patronymic from H7014; a Kenite or member of the tribe of Kajin: - Kenite.


H7014
קין
qayin
kah'-yin
The same as H7013 (with a play upon the affinity to H7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe: - Cain, Kenite (-s).

I think that will nail down that the Kenites that a prophet of Yehovah spoke of are from Cain.

Now, i put it to you dear reader:

1. If the flood is global and there are only eight souls on the Ark and Noah can Trace his bloodline directly to The Man [Eth-ha-aw-dawm, the Husbandman - Farmer] in the Garden, then how dear Reader does Cain survive the flood?

Absent making up something that is not in the manuscripts; how dear Reader does Cain come thru the flood? Yet, there it is a prophet of Yehovah speaking of the Kenites - the Sons of Cain.

As with any assertion concerning Yehovah's Word; let us get a second Witness - just so that I can keep my Court proper and meet your rules of evidence - dear Reader.

1Ch 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

H7017
קיני קיני
qêynı̂y qı̂ynı̂y
kay-nee', kee-nee'
Patronymic from H7014; a Kenite or member of the tribe of Kajin: - Kenite.


H7014
קין
qayin
kah'-yin
The same as H7013 (with a play upon the affinity to H7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe: - Cain, Kenite (-s).

How is this possible dear Reader? There were only eight men and women on that Ark, Right?

-----

One is left with one of two possibilities:

1. The flood is not Global.
2. Noah carried "other men and women" on that Ark.

I say the latter is true given the following study; and I think the former is true as well, but I cannot prove it to be true.


Flesh means other men and women - these are Not - from "Ha-aw-dawm" (The Man). (http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showthread.php?68-Can-God-die&p=1193&viewfull=1#post1193)

Issued to you Dear Reader for your Court. Weigh it in the balance and make up your own mind.

Michael Joseph
07-06-11, 01:26 AM
The question that stretches the tent chords of my mind is: was the Flesh of Yehoshua with a Soul? I ask the Ever Living for grace as I try to unravel that thought. I am in no way attempting to disparage the Scriptures, I like Enoch stand before the Ever Living and say "I want to know". And the Angel told Enoch, because you want to know, I will show you.

I think I have my answer found here: Yehovah speaking:

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father. The triune God-head expressed in one verse. my soul is "nephesh"

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Metheist
07-10-11, 02:59 PM
Who's your daddy?
Whose counsel would you like to receive?

Good question Metheist; I like it.


The question remains unanswered, yes? :)

Billy James
07-11-11, 12:08 AM
Who is with authority to show us the truth in scripture?

The Author.

Metheist
07-11-11, 08:47 PM
Who is with authority to show us the truth in scripture?

The Author.


Well, until the "claimed" author shows up for questioning, I guess that pretty much shuts down the exposition of truth in scripture, then...

Oh well.

(And I don't really care about the voices in one's head...)

Billy James
07-11-11, 10:00 PM
There are no truths only agreements.

Good luck on your quest.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafY6sZt0FE


verily

Michael Joseph
07-12-11, 02:06 AM
There are no truths only agreements.

Good luck on your quest.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafY6sZt0FE


verily

Hey Billy James, anytime you show up with Grateful Dead, you are doing okay.

I can't walk you out in the Morning Dew (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOEHdZjRZ9U)


The Rational Mind knows that to prove truth in anything is extremely difficult if not impossible. Thus proof is replaced by faith and trust. Even the mathematician struggles with proof - he must first FRAME his argument [Given] - such that proof can be "pawed" at; yet hardly ever known with exact assurance.

Therefore I Trust in God [Yehovah Elohiym]

Metheist
07-12-11, 02:25 PM
There are no truths only agreements.


Is the above statement "truth" even if I don't "agree" with it? ROFLMAO.

Axe
09-13-11, 12:15 AM
Truth speaks for itself.

Michael Joseph
09-13-11, 03:59 AM
Truth speaks for itself.

Let US make man in OUR image.


Looking at possibilities upon the English expression:

1. US - many Gods?; but this cannot be because that would nullify Deuteronomy 6:4

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

2. OUR - is plural.
3. In the image of Him made He Him - Singular - I'll get back to three

In the Hebrew:

1. God = Elohim and the term "God" is Plural.
2. Elohim can only mean here "Yehovah AND the Angelic Host" - Yehovah and the Stars of God or Sons of God.
3. What is this OUR business about? Back to three above: Yehovah decreed that ALL of the Angelic Heavenly Host including Himself would go thru this current Earth Age [Flesh Age]. Only ONE was made in the image of Yehovah, remember there can only be One God; that is the expression of the office of the Son = Yehovah Saves = Yehoshuah in the Flesh - The Word of Yehovah. [If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father.]

But the term Elohim is PLURAL, why? Because there was a judgment day at the end of the First Heaven and Earth Age and the Judge Himself sat and issued forth a decree with the AGREEMENT of all of the Host - Let US make man in OUR image. Meaning I and you, appear today in the flesh the same appearance [in terms of the mirror - at your best youthful expression] as you did in the First Age.

Now, consider there were some who overcame in the First Age; in Trust of Yehovah. See Acts 17:28 "in Him". This Flesh Age is about the same Trust - we need to choose - as we had choice before - a) in nation/state/idols [false god] or b) Yehovah [One True Living God].

I believe it was Elijah who said:

1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

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Now then back to the Question "Can God Die"? Again, I, in response ask "has any man died?" Of course the flesh dies, but the Spirit is eternal according to the one who gives the Spirit. Therefore the one who Granted the Spirit also has the power to revoke the grant. Therefore, the Spirit lives, but the flesh dies. Yehovah the Savior took on the Flesh and the Flesh was killed. I remind the reader "Let US make man in OUR image." The Sacrifice was the Flesh, NOT the Spirit. As such, what is God? God is Spirit.

Therefore, logic alone easily answers the question. Now, an atheist may propound the non-existence of a God. An argument concerning "Can God die" can't be sustained with an atheistic opinion. Yet to the atheist, I shall make one demand "please describe with your choice of COORDINATE SYSTEMS the location of your next thought. Please choose any benchmark or reference point such that any other party, with precision, may reproduce your results. The goofy "in my head" response is not gonna get it with me.

I am sure there shall come a contentious opinion; yet, I still await the formal expression of FACT, that is if one truly wants to engage FACT, of the occurrence of events prior to or at the Singular expression - "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth". Never in my existence has something sprung out of nothing. Therefore, my existence begs a Creator. And said Creator must be without the parameters of the Flesh and it is so according to the expression of the Word of God, which is the basis of this argument, God is pneuma = Spirit.

Yehovah is The Self Existing One; the flesh that Yehovah donned in this Flesh Age in the office of the Son of God, was put to death by the hands of men. A sacrifice of blood. For the atonement for sin is in the blood. Therefore man is commanded not to eat of the blood; for the blood and the fat belong to Yehovah. Yet, the Holy Spirit raised up the flesh that had died in Resurrected Glory. Conquering Ha Shatan who had the power of death by and thru the default of the first Adam [eth-ha-aw-dawm]. For it was given to The Man - take dominion over ALL the Earth. Upon the default of THE MAN - Ha Shatan has that dominion.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.



This is the Righteousness of Yehovah and it is Contract Law. The first Adam defaulted; therefore Ha Shatan has default judgment = dominion. The Redeemer has bought back his people with an AWESOME price - his Fleshly Blood.

Michael Joseph
11-23-11, 07:35 PM
Let US make man in OUR image.


Recent revelation:

1. Bereshith bara elohim

a)"Bereshith" contains the root word ROSH - which means head or chief
b)"bara" is a singular verb
c)"elohim" is a plural noun but with a twist its root Eloah is feminine.

Therefore in construction IN ANALOGY we can now see the Family in Heaven. Preposterous you say? What of Scripture?

Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

and now,

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Now, if you buy into this masculine idea of God, then you are going to have to come to grips with - why are there Women in this Age?

Therefore I propound that the Family in Heaven:

Majesty, King - God, the Father - type in Abraham AND Eth-ha-aw-dawm [The Man] [Thought]
Holy Spirit - Glory of His Majesty - Mother - Wisdom [Ref Proverbs 8]
Everlasting Father, prince of Peace - God the Son [kind begets kind] - only Begotten Son - not created [expression of Thought, the Word] - type in Issac.
Holy Ghost - Glory of the Son of God - the Bride - New Jerusalem - the body of Yehoshuah - Feminine - Represented by Water.

Regarding the Holy Ghost - See 3rd day creation Separation of the Waters - See Red Heifer - Feminine, yes? Ruah is feminine!

Now if the Family of God [Elohim] is UNITED - then it is ONE. As a man cleaves to a woman and is UNITED in ONE.

So now, can God die? I change my position and say YES.


Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as with an oath [I]he was made priest:

Question: who granted the Oath and who was made Priest to UNDERTAKE on behalf of the Grantor?

Answer: IN 7:21 Elohim [God] - The Father gave the Oath to Elohim [God] - The Son; and The Son Undertook to become Surety for the fallen people [created beings] Who cannot see Equity here? For the Consideration of the Oath, the Son Undertook, to go forth and become Surety - exchange of value. A perpetual priesthood in the Order of Melchisedec, and the creation [the people in Yehoshuah] presented to His Majesty, the King, The Father - Yehovah by and thru Yehoshauh. Whereby Yehoshuah is the Alef-Tav the Author and Finisher of the Faith.

Heb 7:21 (For those priests [Levitical high priest - chosen by God] were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him [God - The Father] that said unto him, [God - The Son] The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) [emphasis by mj]

Notice: Yehoshuah is NOT Melchisedec but a priest after the ORDER of Melchisedec. I believe Melchisedec was the Holy Ghost [she] who met Abraham [manifested in Shem] If Abraham tithed to a mankind [another awdawm] then Abraham is guilty of Idolatry.


Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament [covenant].

By so much, in my opinion can be "in consideration thereof".

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Now then to Faith, being the DEED to the Kingdom, in belief.


Abraham receiving the promise believed in Faith, that God - the Father, would raise up Issac should he, Abraham kill him. As a Promise had been given. See now the Promise did not require the Acceptance of Abraham - yet Abraham by works believed though he be an old man - he was going to have a child - as he was Promised - telling the child - Yehovah Yireh - whereby an Adult Male RAM - was found caught in the thorn bush - in substitution.

Yehoshuah, The Son, in Covenant with Yehovah, The Father, accepted the Oath as a Promise to perform for how could Yehoshuah be an High Priest Forever unless he was to be revived from his sleep [death]? Ref The Man - Adam - slept [without the Garden of Eden]. Yehovah by Oath in Himself, for there is no Greater - Sware and said Forever. Therefore The Son ALLOWED himself to be put to death, IN FAITH that Yehovah, The Father, is Righteous and cannot Lie! The Son believes that The Father will raise him - in Faith.

What then of works? Faith absent works is DEAD. Faith is expressed in works - else sit and do nothing and be nothing = useless.

Now, Therefore Yehoshuah - The Son, has taken all the Liability, as Surety, and Therefore the Kingdom is His. And yet there are TWO Intercessors in Heaven. The Holy Ghost [She] and The Son [He]. I know that last one may throw a lot so here it is:

(1)

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself [herself] maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(2)

Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


The Lamb and His Bride

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So did God die? I believe the answer is YES - in Part.

shalom,
mj


PS - The Estate of the Creation is in Salvation; and Salvation is in Yehoshuah. Now Therefore, Yehoshuah took the Liability, became the Surety and therefore, is with the Dominion. And therefore the Estate is conditioned on being IN Yehoshuah. For Yehoshuah is the surety. Absent Yehoshuah, one must stand before Yehovah - under the Law. And what man has kept all of the Law?

However, there is no estate in Salvation , if there is willful disobedience of the Law. Therefore, the Law still stands and is not nullified. Enter Repentance and Forgiveness. For where there is Forgiveness, there is no longer Sin. Therefore there is MERCY in LOVE.

MERCY

H7356
racham
rakh'-am
From H7355; compassion (in the plural); by extension the womb (as cherishing the foetus); by implication a maiden: - bowels, compassion, damsel, tender love, (great, tender) mercy, pity, womb.


Elohim [God] The Father uses Imagery in a Woman's tender love for her newborn baby. The Woman, in Love, may sometimes die in childbirth - sacrificing her own life to bring forth the newborn baby - in complete Love.

Reference Rachel - in the House of Bread [Bethleham] - Benjamin [son of my right arm - strength] - she dies bringing forth Benjamin. The Father - Jacob - turning her "sorrow" into "strength".


"And he gave up the [Holy] Ghost."


[I]
HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER.