I've solved the Lawful Money Riddle

Well, I think I've solved the lawful money riddle. What is meant by the term 'lawful money' is LEGAL TENDER US COINS. Which would then mean that redeeming FRNs in LM, should get you US coins at the bank, or endorsing a check with the LM demand language, should be considered as a deposit of LEGAL TENDER US COINS.

And they don't have to give you silver or gold coins, since non-precious coins are LTLM also, and they got a choice which LTLM to give as redemption. Simple.

Here are some simple definitions of "money" which are historically and legally based specifically related to the United States.


Money - a common commodity used to faciliate the barter system. Such commodities have predominately been gold, silver and copper coins but have also included tobacco, whiskey and even tulips in Europe at one time. Any common commodity can be "money" but some commodities have properties that are simply better for this purpose.

Lawful Money - A commodity that is controlled as far as weight, content or other criteria by a government. Examples would be Spanish gold and silver coins used in the United States up until about 1850 or Canadian Gold Maple Leafs today which can be accepted as payment but where that acceptance is not mandatory under US Law.

Legal Tender Lawful Money - Lawful money that's produced by the US Mint and where acceptance is mandated under the law for public and private debts. First defined and established under the Coinage Act of 1792 and most recently by the American Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985 with subsequent revisions.

Legal Tender Currency -A promissory note backed by the government that is redeemable in Legal Tender Lawful Money where the acceptance for debts is required except as excluded under contract (i.e. since 1977 and prior to 1934 contracts could require payment in gold "legal tender" coins in the United States). Legal Tender currency is Constitutional based upon the Supreme Court decision in Julliard v Greenman based upon the authority of Congress to "borrow agianst the credit of the United States" in Article I Section 8 Clause 1 and it is not "money" as authorized by Article I Section 8 Clause 4.

In most cases today, the term "money" is really referring to Legal Tender Currency and not to money.



And this would pretty much mean that FRNs are LEGAL TENDER CURRENCY, and should be redeemable under the 12USC411 in LEGAL TENDER LAWFUL MONEY, i.e. US coins. Also regarding true lawful money, one dollar was defined as about one ounce of silver. So if you had a $1 FRN before 1933, you were entitled to redeem it for an ounce of silver coin. ALthough that might have been true until 1963.

BTW, the Federal Reserve people are either real stupid or liars. They claim that their worthless crap FRns are lawful money:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/money_15197.htm

In 1989, the nation faced a financial crisis caused by the collapse of hundreds of savings and loan associations, who had taken advantage of loosened regulations to invest aggressively in real estate and other ventures, many of which went sour. Their problem was the government's problem, too, since their deposits were guaranteed by the federal government.

Fearing both the size of the bill if the troubled institutions went under and the damage such a meltdown might cause to the economy at large, Congress and President George H.W. Bush in 1989 created the Resolution Trust Corporation to take over troubled thrifts, as the banks were known.

The mission of the corporation was to dispose of the assets as quickly as possible for maximum value. Its goal was to reduce taxpayer exposure.

Resolution Trust closed or reorganized 747 institutions holding assets of nearly $400 billion. It did so by seizing the assets of troubled savings and loans and then reselling them to bargain-seeking investors. At the peak in early 1990 there were 350 failed savings and loan institutions under the agency's control.

By 1995, the S.& L. crisis abated and the agency was folded into the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, which Congress created during the Great Depression to regulate banks and protect the accounts of customers when they fail. The total cost to taxpayers was later estimated at $124 billion.

Resolution Trust Corporation - The New York Times News

Don't forget that treasury notes and bonds are lawful money as well.

Lawful money is any form of currency issued by the U.S. Treasury (according to Investopedia).
Lawful money can be just as fiat as legal tender depending on its form.

I've heard that money orders are lawful money, but have not sought to substantiate that.

Also keep in mind that the specie of today is clad coinage.

Jaro, from where did you get your definition for lawful money?

Nonsense, those investopedia morons have no idea what money is. Bouvier's dict. defines them as:

MONEY. Gold, silver, and some other less precious metals, in the progress of civilization and commerce, have become the common standards of value; in order to avoid the delay and inconvenience of regulating their weight and quality whenever passed, the governments of the civilized world have caused them to be manufactured in certain portions, and marked with a Stamp which attests their value; this is called money. 1 Inst. 207; 1 Hale's Hist. 188; 1 Pardess. n. 22; Dom. Lois civ. liv. prel. t. 3, s. 2, n. 6.

The US government cannot "create" money which is gold and silver but is limited to coining money to make legal tender lawful money. The government cannot create gold or silver but can make legal tender lawful money from it. In other words, the US gov't CANNOT CREATE ANY MONEY. Money is something of value or redeemable in value and gov't can't create value.


And tresury notes and bonds aren't lawful money since they even AREN'T currency.
"Money: In usual and ordinary acceptation it means coins and paper currency used as circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace notes, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate. Lane v. Railey, 280 Ky. 319, 133 S.W.2d 74, 79, 81."
[Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1005]

So Federal Reserve Notes (FRN) are not "money", but they are "currency" from a legal perspective. And let's not forget that at least until 1963 FRns were redeemable in lawful money, so OBVIOUSLY they weren't lawful money.

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Originally Posted by shikamaru

Don't forget that treasury notes and bonds are lawful money as well.

Lawful money is any form of currency issued by the U.S. Treasury (according to Investopedia).
Lawful money can be just as fiat as legal tender depending on its form.

I've heard that money orders are lawful money, but have not sought to substantiate that.

Also keep in mind that the specie of today is clad coinage.

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Shikamaru, that's a LIE. Here's the REAL definition of lawful money by Investopedia and it DOES NOT include fiat money:


"Definition of 'Lawful Money'
Any form of currency issued by the United States Treasury and not the Federal Reserve System, including gold and silver coins, Treasury notes, and Treasury bonds. Lawful money stands in contrast to fiat money, to which the government assigns value although it has no intrinsic value of its own and is not backed by reserves. Fiat money includes legal tender such as paper money, checks, drafts and bank notes.

Also known as "specie", which means "in actual form." Investopedia explains 'Lawful Money'
Oddly enough, the dollar bills that we carry around in our wallets are not considered lawful money. The notation on the bottom of a U.S. dollar bill reads "Legal Tender for All Debts, Public and Private", and is issued by the U.S. Federal Reserve, not the U.S. Treasury. Legal tender can be exchanged for an equivalent amount of lawful money, but effects such as inflation can change the value of fiat money. Lawful money is said to be the most direct form of ownership, but for purposes of practicality it has little use in direct transactions between parties anymore.

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/...#ixzz1k4M2Kks6

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Originally Posted by shikamaru

Don't forget that treasury notes and bonds are lawful money as well.

Lawful money is any form of currency issued by the U.S. Treasury (according to Investopedia).
Lawful money can be just as fiat as legal tender depending on its form.

I've heard that money orders are lawful money, but have not sought to substantiate that.

Also keep in mind that the specie of today is clad coinage.

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Originally Posted by Jaro

Money is something of value or redeemable in value and gov't can't create value.

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Money has 4 functions i.e. 1) unit of exchange, 2) unit of measure, 3) store of value, and 4) standard of deferred payment.

Value is created and destroyed all the time.
My question is how do you define value?

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Originally Posted by Jaro

And tresury notes and bonds aren't lawful money since they even AREN'T currency.
"Money[/B]: In usual and ordinary acceptation it means coins and paper currency used as circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace notes, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate. Lane v. Railey, 280 Ky. 319, 133 S.W.2d 74, 79, 81."
[/U][Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1005]

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Treasury notes and bonds circulate between banks and governments. Would this not be currency at least for those participants?
Further, treasury notes and bonds serve as "reserve currency" or assets for the US banking system.

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Originally Posted by Jaro

So Federal Reserve Notes (FRN) are not "money", but they are "currency" from a legal perspective. And let's not forget that at least until 1963 FRns were redeemable in lawful money, so OBVIOUSLY they weren't lawful money.

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Let's look at it from this perspective.
Law is will. Will of the political power holder.
Gold and silver coin became lawful money in England only by ruling of the English courts. Prior to this event silver coin was the defacto currency of the realm.

The English Courts could have just as easily said that seashells or salt is lawful money.

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Originally Posted by Jaro

[SIZE=3][COLOR=#4b0082]Shikamaru, that's a LIE. Here's the REAL definition of lawful money by Investopedia and it DOES NOT include fiat money:

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Is that lie as in I lied or Investopedia? Could you also point out in any post of mine where I state "lawful money includes fiat money"?

I think you need to re-read my post again. You have clearly taken several sentences out of context.

You post the definition of lawful money from Investopedia reiterating what I already stated. I did link it in my post as well.

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Originally Posted by Jaro

"Definition of 'Lawful Money'
Any form of currency issued by the United States Treasury and not the Federal Reserve System, including gold and silver coins, Treasury notes, and Treasury bonds. Lawful money stands in contrast to fiat money, to which the government assigns value although it has no intrinsic value of its own and is not backed by reserves. Fiat money includes legal tender such as paper money, checks, drafts and bank notes.

Also known as "specie", which means "in actual form." Investopedia explains 'Lawful Money'
Oddly enough, the dollar bills that we carry around in our wallets are not considered lawful money. The notation on the bottom of a U.S. dollar bill reads "Legal Tender for All Debts, Public and Private", and is issued by the U.S. Federal Reserve, not the U.S. Treasury. Legal tender can be exchanged for an equivalent amount of lawful money, but effects such as inflation can change the value of fiat money. Lawful money is said to be the most direct form of ownership, but for purposes of practicality it has little use in direct transactions between parties anymore.

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/...#ixzz1k4M2Kks6

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You do realize by posting this, you've contradicted your initial post/definition on currency?

It would seem from the definition what makes a given currency lawful or legal is who the issuer is rather than its form.

Given the definition you have linked, US gold and silver certificates are lawful money.

Aren't treasury notes, treasury bonds, US gold and silver certificates, and USNs all paper?
Aren't FRNs, FRBNs, and banknotes paper as well?

What is to prevent the issuer of paper lawful money from producing more paper than there is reserve currency to back them?
What is to prevent the issuer from suspending redeemibility of that paper lawful money?

I do have to thank-you, Jaro, for you have changed my view on money just a bit.

Money, coin, metal .....

I dont know if anyone can confirm. I read somewhere that the FED keeps all the US notes (Lawful Money) out of public circulation and only transfers it within the bank system. I believe the article said there is only a hundred million or so of US notes left. We are in a complete knowledge blackout when it comes to lawful money and its use. I believe that the demand is the only thing left of lawful money that the common man can actually latch onto. We have to make the demand everywhere as the FRN is a slime that gets on everything and changes it nature. You can never truly possess full title of something with a FRN. I see why all deeds used to say Lawful Money.

I also agree that money orders from the post office are lawful money. Try buying one on credit, they wont do it. Cash or debit only.

Of course the problem with all this is no one in the 'know' is talking. I am finding the IRS will not even answer Lawful Money questions. I plan to keep trying though.

BTW I like how DM not only demands it verbally but on the bill itself. Does that pose a problem when trying to change that FRN to lawful money? Alchemy anyone?

Paper gold or paper silver whether gold or silver certificate IS NOT gold or silver coin.

If one does not have gold and silver coin in their grubby little hands, one does not have gold and silver coin.

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Originally Posted by shikamaru

Paper gold or paper silver whether gold or silver certificate IS NOT gold or silver coin.

If one does not have gold and silver coin in their grubby little hands, one does not have gold and silver coin.

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I presume that any paper gold like in your example can be claimed in real gold.

Here is some crosstalk about paper gold however I am speaking about SDR's Special Drawing Rights, the other paper gold.

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Then on the other hand I was sitting in A Course in Miracles yesterday morning, the §501 Church in collusion and criminal syndicalism. [Classic God v. Mammon.] On page 46, Beyond Perception we read:

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…Spirit knows God completely. That is its miraculous power. The fact that each one has this power completely is a condition entirely alien to the world’s thinking. The world believes that if anyone has everything, there is nothing left.

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One fellow chimed in something, What comes to my mind is, in “there is nothing left”; the word that comes to my mind is completion.

The next paragraph goes into some broader detail:

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God and His miracles are inseparable. How beautiful indeed are the Thoughts of God who live in His light. Your worth is beyond perception because it is beyond doubt.

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We played a guessing game of what does the author (psychotomimetic delirium; Cold War National Security MK-ULTRA – LSD 25 – aka Renting the Veil) mean by “Thoughts of God”. I got it right first try – “Us!” I interjected: I think that the human mindset is blockaded from understanding what he is saying by the acceptance globally, that government debt is money.


What really was ringing in me so loudly that I almost expressed it was, Your worth is beyond perception because it is beyond doubt. That speaks plainly of my 100% confidence (competence) in my Bill of Exchange. Of course awakening on the morning of 9/11/01 anticipating that maybe I better be watching the news for signs of the 30-Day Judgment has never hindered my confidence at all.

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Your point though to paper certificates indicates that you expect a holiday soon? That sounds logical.

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Originally Posted by David Merrill

I presume that any paper gold like in your example can be claimed in real gold.

Here is some crosstalk about paper gold however I am speaking about SDR's Special Drawing Rights, the other paper gold.

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I would avoid paper gold as much as possible save one's public side asset management.

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Originally Posted by David Merrill

Your point though to paper certificates indicates that you expect a holiday soon? That sounds logical.

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Bank holidays can occur anytime. Case in point: 9-11.
Limit your exposure to banks and banking vehicles.
Cordon them off in their own enclosure.