Abusive delays in processing Amended Return seeking lawful money reduction

For the tax years 2015-18 I had redeemed lawful money but did not claim it due to issues (FrivPen) I was having with the State of Oregon. In 2018 I reduced my income partially with lawful money redemption and received the return without issue. Believing I had overcome any errors I may have made in the past I submitted an amended return for 2015-17 on Sept 3 2019. 2015 was reject outright for being submitted too late. The other two have not been processed. I finally turned to "Taxpayer Advocacy Service" to find out why the forms had not been processed. Of course I had to wait 30 days for reply, they informed me that the forms had been lost and needed to be resubmitted. Wait another 30 days and I get word that they considered the return Frivolous. I told the advocate to tell them that they must inform me of exactly what was frivolous, nothing vague like the listing they send out stating the items courts have found frivolous, but not Lawful Money Redemption.

After 2 weeks of no IRS letter, I called the advocate and was told IRS Office building is closed so no letters are being sent. They are sending out stimulus checks, why can't they send out other correspondence?

I find it odd that a frivolous return was not sited immediately and a letter issued at the out set.
I find it odd that 2015 return was not lost but was rejected for other reasons.

Now what do I do? If they send a frivolous return letter to me, how do I respond, "You accepted my lawful money reduction in 2018??" , "Redemption of Lawful Money is not on the list of Frivolous Returns".

Should I put in a FOIA request to see the discussions involving my return? Has anyone ever done this? Any tips?

Recently lost my job due to COVID and could really use that money. I also reduced income in 2019, lets see if they accept that, still waiting.

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Originally Posted by David Neil

After 2 weeks of no IRS letter, I called the advocate and was told IRS Office building is closed so no letters are being sent. They are sending out stimulus checks, why can't they send out other correspondence?

I find it odd that a frivolous return was not sited immediately and a letter issued at the out set.
I find it odd that 2015 return was not lost but was rejected for other reasons.

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Your return is not frivolous, likely. If you filled it out correctly and were redeeming consistently over that tax year(s) then they are just saying that the return(s) was frivolous.

Attachment 5911

Attachment 5912

Careful record forming and an understanding about redemption help, so that you can speak to an IRS attorney in terms that they understand. Sadly large numbers of IRS employees are laid off or insulated by Work at Home policy during the pandemic.

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Hi David,

I decided to call the number on the letter. This appears to be a false flag notice.

The Guy on the line starts rattling off some script about the letter being generated by a third party and then the letter is forwarded
To their firm. The firm “helps” people with tax lien difficulties.

In other words it was a law firm fishing for new clients and not my local county calling.
This is just fish bait.

The guy asks me how much is the tax lien was for. I told him he was the one who sent me the letter and he should know the answer.
The funny thing is the guy got testy right away and asked if I heard anything he said. That the letter was generated by a third party and he didn’t know the answer. He asked me if I was going to be difficult or wanted help.

I answered nonchalantly by saying: I guess I’m going to be difficult.
He just said have a nice day and hung up.

I guess they also don’t believe in their own product, he never tried to pursued me to try them out. Lol

Sweet Nickname.

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There is some interesting history regarding the Albany Remand here. This suitor is the only claimant who was pestered about refunds. Well, it turned out that he was signing "Without Prejudice" on his R4C process (Refusal for Cause). This are dregs from his Patriot days and English a second language. I should have checked his signature too. We both thought he knew better. So when he began redemption verbiage on his demand/signature things cleared up with him and the IRS. He awaits the COVID-19 delayed refund but an IRS agent sold the debt to a collector.

Note that he is not provided an address to send his Refusal for Cause!! When he gets to it, he will publish the R4C at the county clerk and recorder. This debt scavenger service claims to be operating at the county level.

Attachment 5914

So make no mistake. The process can be billed and lead to big troubles if the suitor were to acquiesce. Instead he will methodically treat the debt scavenger in a manner that has been proven to be effective against debt scavengers. The debt scavenger will likely report back to the IRS that the debtor is being "difficult". The IRS already knows that collection process is illegal. But if the affidavit/rebuttal process were dropped then the debt scavenger's process would become valid.

The suitor is very relieved to have paid up for my Lesson Plan.


P.S. Of course an additional point is how your process options, as well as described above are being abrogated and limited by the COVID-19 pandemic. You really should consider cleaving with some jingle for the Lesson Plan.

P.P.S. One suitor on the brain trust (Lesson Plan) brought out a link under "plandemic":

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Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition by censorship fines and imprisonment, and use of strong media influenced regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence during the present inflated COVID scare campaign of creating a problem threat with a pre-planned solution wherein any effective competing therapies to Medpharm vaccines will be villified and smeared by propaganda knee jerk media.

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Speaking for myself, this is a great time to research the nature of viruses. It is wonderful how much you can get done without even going out to the hardware store!

Attachment 5915

Thinking about the title to this thread - abusing the fear in the COVID-19 pandemic.

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Originally Posted by David Neil

For the tax years 2015-18 I had redeemed lawful money but did not claim it due to issues (FrivPen) I was having with the State of Oregon. In 2018 I reduced my income partially with lawful money redemption and received the return without issue. Believing I had overcome any errors I may have made in the past I submitted an amended return for 2015-17 on Sept 3 2019. 2015 was reject outright for being submitted too late. The other two have not been processed. I finally turned to "Taxpayer Advocacy Service" to find out why the forms had not been processed. Of course I had to wait 30 days for reply, they informed me that the forms had been lost and needed to be resubmitted. Wait another 30 days and I get word that they considered the return Frivolous. I told the advocate to tell them that they must inform me of exactly what was frivolous, nothing vague like the listing they send out stating the items courts have found frivolous, but not Lawful Money Redemption.

After 2 weeks of no IRS letter, I called the advocate and was told IRS Office building is closed so no letters are being sent. They are sending out stimulus checks, why can't they send out other correspondence?

I find it odd that a frivolous return was not sited immediately and a letter issued at the out set.
I find it odd that 2015 return was not lost but was rejected for other reasons.

Now what do I do? If they send a frivolous return letter to me, how do I respond, "You accepted my lawful money reduction in 2018??" , "Redemption of Lawful Money is not on the list of Frivolous Returns".

Should I put in a FOIA request to see the discussions involving my return? Has anyone ever done this? Any tips?

Recently lost my job due to COVID and could really use that money. I also reduced income in 2019, lets see if they accept that, still waiting.

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Okay then. My point is that the IRS agent will tell you the IRS propaganda about Zero Income returns and frivolous penalties, over the phone. Handling the paper process carefully in a manner the IRS attorney can understand is the key to getting the actual results. The IRS will likely resort to their three-year rule whenever they can. Even though they will pester a "taxpayer" of fifteen years past.

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Originally Posted by David Neil

For the tax years 2015-18 I had redeemed lawful money but did not claim it due to issues (FrivPen) I was having with the State of Oregon. In 2018 I reduced my income partially with lawful money redemption and received the return without issue. Believing I had overcome any errors I may have made in the past I submitted an amended return for 2015-17 on Sept 3 2019. 2015 was reject outright for being submitted too late. The other two have not been processed. I finally turned to "Taxpayer Advocacy Service" to find out why the forms had not been processed. Of course I had to wait 30 days for reply, they informed me that the forms had been lost and needed to be resubmitted. Wait another 30 days and I get word that they considered the return Frivolous. I told the advocate to tell them that they must inform me of exactly what was frivolous, nothing vague like the listing they send out stating the items courts have found frivolous, but not Lawful Money Redemption.

After 2 weeks of no IRS letter, I called the advocate and was told IRS Office building is closed so no letters are being sent. They are sending out stimulus checks, why can't they send out other correspondence?

I find it odd that a frivolous return was not sited immediately and a letter issued at the out set.
I find it odd that 2015 return was not lost but was rejected for other reasons.

Now what do I do? If they send a frivolous return letter to me, how do I respond, "You accepted my lawful money reduction in 2018??" , "Redemption of Lawful Money is not on the list of Frivolous Returns".

Should I put in a FOIA request to see the discussions involving my return? Has anyone ever done this? Any tips?

Recently lost my job due to COVID and could really use that money. I also reduced income in 2019, lets see if they accept that, still waiting.

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Have a look @ this post from the past..... http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showt...ling-penalties

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Originally Posted by ag maniac

Have a look @ this post from the past..... http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showt...ling-penalties

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Thank you for mentioning that. Martin Earl and I go way back.

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Originally Posted by martin earl

After going back and forth with the I R S for "frivolous filing" accusations, here is what was done.

This began with a 1040 return filed after a year of demanding redemption per 12 USC 411.

The agent made a correction on the amount of the return, sent a letter to me telling me of the amendment to the amount of return, with was correct. (my math was off). And that the return was being sent.

About a week later, a Notice of frivolous filing was sent and they wanted me to amend the return and send in a corrected 1040x (i believe that was the number).

The Second letter was sent from a different IRS office than the 1st letter.

So, I refused for cause the 2nd letter AND all corresponding literature with the letter including the envelope it came in. I R4C everything sent to me that I do not agree to, make copies of it all (that includes the backs of each page, written on or not and all "instructions" or informational packets) EVERY SINGLE page and paper gets its own R4C written on it and returned. I also put a color copy in my evidence repository court of record.

No phone calls to the IRS were made, it was all done via Registered mail. I also write the Registered mail number on each page of the R4C. I did send in a 1040x filled out with the exact same numbers the original IRS agent used for the corrected 1040. On all return receipts, return address was "Non domestic" without a ZIP CODE and no state abbreviation.

Then, a couple of months later the Notice of fee and intent to levy "frivolous filing fees" of a total of 15,000 (for each 1040 and a letter sent in the amended return) came in.

Here is where the choice was made to stay in honor with their debt system, on each 5,000 friv filing fee Notice, written in red ink:

"XXX-XX-XXX (the SSN of the "taxpayer")
XXXXXXXX (the EIN/SSN with no dashes)
THE ALL CAPS LEGAL NAME
THIS NAME AND ALL CORRESPONDING NUMBERS ARE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. PLEASE DEPOSIT $xxxxxx.00 TO THE UNTIED STATES TREASURY. (AMOUNT DEMANDED ON THE BILL)
USUFRUCT SIGNATORY: X___________________________

A $1 united states postage stamp was affixed to each BILL. A "demand is made for lawful money per 12 usc 411" was also stamped on each BILL and they were returned via Registered mail, also with the Registered Mail number written on the bill (at the top). Color copies were made of all of them.

At this point, I also wrote a letter to the Secretary of Treasury, written by hand and sent Registered mail as well. In the letter, I made it clear that the Secretary was the Fiduciary of Lawful money accounting as evidenced by the Monthly Report of the National Debt to Congress. I informed the Secretary of the total amount of money demanded redeemed for the year in question and now demanded that amount be recorded and recognized in the official accounting.

I also made it clear my demand for lawful money redemption was also a REFUSAL of Federal Reserve Notes or currency in any form and I only used United States Currency Notes as provided in 31 USC 5115.

The Secretary was informed of the demanded redemption, my PACER case number (evidence repository court of record) with all the records, etc. I also demanded the Secretary of Treasury correct the IRS and stop further harassment or collection threats from the IRS or I would inform the proper members of Congress of the failure to perform Fiduciary duties regarding lawful money redemption demand and accounting for the redeemed US Currency on the monthly report to congress.

Later on, another letter from the IRS came in the mail. The letter said they did an "audit by mail" and they wanted to return a few hundred dollars for the year in question. This too was refused for cause and returned. That letter was from June of 2015. No further letters or threats have been received as of this post.

As a side note as to possibly why the return was flagged and then ruled frivolous, I learned there was a group of people who were filing returns as part of an anti war protest demanding full returns of all taxes withheld. IRS agents were notified if any out of the ordinary letters or justification was included with the returns, the returns should be forwarded to another office for further investigation. I believe it was a letter and copies of bank signature cards sent in as proof of demand for lawful money redemption that got the return flagged and not because of the demand for lawful money. That is my opinion only.

I do not know if the letter to the Secretary of Treasury (LEW) made any difference, but I am going to keep informing Lew of my total yearly demanded redemption so the accounting can be correct.

I hope this was clear enough, I will be happy to answer any questions.

NOTICE: ALL RIGHTS RESERVED, NOT LEGAL ADVICE, FOR EDUCATIONAL USE ONLY AT YOUR OWN RISK, WITH PREJUDICE.

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He is a wonderful suitor to have on the brain trust. He makes intuitive initiatives pioneering new levels of redemption.

HA, a "NOTICE OF INTENT TO LEVY" scam letter made to look official. I guess many of these went out to Washoe County residents:
https://www.washoecounty.us/outreach...f-tax-scam.php

Well, it's good to see the COVID-19 plandemic didn't take out any suitors. Maybe next time they'll try a little harder with their gain of function (GOF) research?

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Originally Posted by lorne

HA, a "NOTICE OF INTENT TO LEVY" scam letter made to look official. I guess many of these went out to Washoe County residents:
https://www.washoecounty.us/outreach...f-tax-scam.php

Well, it's good to see the COVID-19 plandemic didn't take out any suitors. Maybe next time they'll try a little harder with their gain of function (GOF) research?

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I think the AG should call the number and arrest whoever answers the call receiving money.

Arrested and charged with what crime? Is it illegal to create a letter that looks official purporting to "help" people with their tax liability (real or imagined), hire a company to mail out thousands of them, then man a call center to talk people into giving them your credit card number?

Is it illegal to come up with the Aldrich Plan that creates an elastic currency that looks official, get Congress to pass it, have Woodrow Wilson sign it into law as the Federal Reserve Act, then talk people into using the FRN currency which creates a tax liability that ends up strip mining the wealth of America?

Both are nothing I'd ever do; seems way too ... scammy.

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Originally Posted by lorne

Arrested and charged with what crime? Is it illegal to create a letter that looks official purporting to "help" people with their tax liability (real or imagined), hire a company to mail out thousands of them, then man a call center to talk people into giving them your credit card number?

Is it illegal to come up with the Aldrich Plan that creates an elastic currency that looks official, get Congress to pass it, have Woodrow Wilson sign it into law as the Federal Reserve Act, then talk people into using the FRN currency which creates a tax liability that ends up strip mining the wealth of America?

Both are nothing I'd ever do; seems way too ... scammy.

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Yes, and Yes.

In scenario 1.

Creating an official looking letter is fraud. Obviously.

In scenario 2.

Using bottomry (insurance - FDIC) to cover for money shortages in the member bank vaults is dishonest banking. One defrauds the customers to believing they can withdraw all their money at once. That there is enough cash on hand in the vault to do that.

In the second scenario though, one has a remedy at Title 12 USC 411.

https://youtu.be/DU6fxC5CXMg

P.S. I think the first can be run in criminal syndicalism. The Nigerian Scam is old news and if they still run international piracy that has quit being news. So good luck prosecuting!

Update. IRS office handling case is closed an I have not received official word of Frivolous Return. My "IRS Advocate", used in the loosest terms of the definition, has told me the determination is a Frivolous Return.

On a more joyous note. The State has just sent me my lawful money reduction. In fact it is for 2K more than I claimed. IRS still denies that I have sent my return. I doubt since State relies on Fed to calculate and verify. Something fishy afoot here.

I have also begun sharing , on twitter, what I have learned from all of you here at STSC and Lawful Money Trust. I have garnered 7K followers in only 3 days. The topic is exciting for many. Of course due acknowledgments to STSC have been made and I am now linking to the various sites as a resource. I cannot teach in the depth that I have benefited from here so hopefully you will see a spike in attendance. Check it out at David Neil@Neilof9Hostages on twitter.

That is great to know David Neil.

I do not Tweet. The amount of time it might consume is disturbing.

I sure appreciate if you can promote some more stimulating conversation. Inoculating the world systematically with the COVID-19 vaccine has been keeping me busy. And it would seem my sharing the higher metaphysics of exotic matter has been stumping dialogue. I am upgrading my lab and have gotten back to redemption on my mind.

Like you, I feel you have accessed reliable intelligence. You expose the phone lies by getting the state refund response. Of all the returns the IRS loses yours? It is easy for an IRS agent to lie over the phone, and even if you record him doing so there is nothing you can do to bring it forth as evidence in any administrative hearings.

Thank you for having the courage to explain the law directly to the IRS. Most people like to avoid such encounters.

Found him https://twitter.com/niallo9hostages

and he appears to be Irish.

Close but I am https://twitter.com/NeilOf9Hostages. Naill was first king of Ireland from whom I descend. My true Name , as is Nail's, is in homage and remembrance of our lineage dating back to the Egypt and the Nile river.

Total fraud. Just got off phone with someone from Fraudulent Claims Program. They insist that they have sent Notification of lien 3 weeks ago. 2 in fact since I have 2 claims. Of course, I have yet to receive them and there is a 30 time frame to rebut. They direct me to my "IRS Advocate". My "IRS Advocate" is trying to close my case and is redirecting me to IRS. Does anyone know of any forms that I can access to refute their judgement?

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Originally Posted by David Neil

Total fraud. Just got off phone with someone from Fraudulent Claims Program. They insist that they have sent Notification of lien 3 weeks ago. 2 in fact since I have 2 claims. Of course, I have yet to receive them and there is a 30 time frame to rebut. They direct me to my "IRS Advocate". My "IRS Advocate" is trying to close my case and is redirecting me to IRS. Does anyone know of any forms that I can access to refute their judgement?

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You accept judgment over the phone?

No. My "advocate" is trying to close my case. She has not provided an answer to my request to IRS. Today she provided a phone # to the "Frivolous Return Program". The rep pulled up my file, could only say 2 letters sent Nov 25. I have yet to receive. She will not re-issue the letters, will not tell me the exact case that makes my return Frivolous. Her recommendation was of course to fax a letter indicating that I was withdrawing my amended return. Without the 3176C letter I do not know when my 30 response window begins. Without the letter I cannot rebut whatever they are claiming the frivolity was. My research is showing that I can request a hear until after I receive a letter of lien. Other research is showing that a 3176C letter usual only contains threats and no specific accusation. Also during research I found this: https://www.irs.gov/irm/part25/irm_25-025-010r. These are rules, including mentions of entails a Frivolous Return. Obviously none of the cases litigated in court do not have bearing on 12USC411. Further reading I acme across a rule that says:

[B]25.25.10.2 (09-15-2017)
Identification of Frivolous Submissions
Identification of frivolous submissions can be made in any IRS office by any employee. They may be identified during original return processing, amended return or claim processing, during the course of a routine audit, or upon any contact with a taxpayer or their representative. Frivolous returns often:
Contain on the face of the tax return or on attachments to the tax return arguments about the obligation to file or pay tax.
Include altered forms or jurats containing frivolous arguments.
include verbiage that attempts to impede or circumvent the administrative processing of the tax return.

"Include Altered Forms caught my eye. The IRS rep today said in passing that the returns were in her office because there was a stamp placed on the form. I was the stamp I use to demand lawful. I included it on the form because I felt that my demand should go on any instrument of Fed Res and IRS. Anyway, I will assume that this is the reason I am singed out.

I am currently preparing my responce. In that response I will rescind my first 1040X's and substitute the new one to cure any deficiency.

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Originally Posted by David Neil

No. My "advocate" is trying to close my case. She has not provided an answer to my request to IRS. Today she provided a phone # to the "Frivolous Return Program". The rep pulled up my file, could only say 2 letters sent Nov 25. I have yet to receive. She will not re-issue the letters, will not tell me the exact case that makes my return Frivolous. Her recommendation was of course to fax a letter indicating that I was withdrawing my amended return. Without the 3176C letter I do not know when my 30 response window begins. Without the letter I cannot rebut whatever they are claiming the frivolity was. My research is showing that I can request a hear until after I receive a letter of lien. Other research is showing that a 3176C letter usual only contains threats and no specific accusation. Also during research I found this: https://www.irs.gov/irm/part25/irm_25-025-010r. These are rules, including mentions of entails a Frivolous Return. Obviously none of the cases litigated in court do not have bearing on 12USC411. Further reading I acme across a rule that says:

[B]25.25.10.2 (09-15-2017)
Identification of Frivolous Submissions
Identification of frivolous submissions can be made in any IRS office by any employee. They may be identified during original return processing, amended return or claim processing, during the course of a routine audit, or upon any contact with a taxpayer or their representative. Frivolous returns often:
Contain on the face of the tax return or on attachments to the tax return arguments about the obligation to file or pay tax.
Include altered forms or jurats containing frivolous arguments.
include verbiage that attempts to impede or circumvent the administrative processing of the tax return.

"Include Altered Forms caught my eye. The IRS rep today said in passing that the returns were in her office because there was a stamp placed on the form. I was the stamp I use to demand lawful. I included it on the form because I felt that my demand should go on any instrument of Fed Res and IRS. Anyway, I will assume that this is the reason I am singed out.

I am currently preparing my responce. In that response I will rescind my first 1040X's and substitute the new one to cure any deficiency.

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Nice link. Thank you again. I found this:

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An untimely claim for a refund/abatement on a non-frivolous Form 843 is received.

Note: To be considered timely, taxpayer must file a claim for a refund on Form 843 within 3 years from the time a return associated with the penalty is filed or 2 years from the date the penalty was paid, whichever period expires later.

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I have some more to add here.

Here we go again. I was sent a letter of Frivolous Return for my 2017-2018 tax returns. I responded that their statements of facts were too vague to allow me to determine any facts. I asked for any court case that stated that 12 USC 411 is no longer valid, that I do not have the right to redeem lawful money per the law. If they fail to do that than any court case that determines that the Lawful Money of the United States Treasury is under their jurisdiction.

Here is what I got in return via certified mail. "You included a position that has no basis in the law...." Is that to be construed that a court has to determine 12 USC 411 is based on law?. They also point to form a mention of Notice 2010-33. section (46) is my only cause for concern. "Any position described as frivolous in any revenue ruling or other published guidance in existence when the return adopting the position is filed with or the specified submission adopting the position is submitted to the Service. Returns or submissions that contain positions not listed above, which on their face have no basis for validity in existing law, or which have been deemed frivolous in a published opinion of the United States Tax Court or other court of competent jurisdiction, may be determined to reflect a desire to delay or impede the administration"

My question is has there been any relevant finding by any court that 12 USC411 is not valid or that IRS has jurisdiction over US Treasury Notes?

I intend to rebut this as well for lack of evidence but they will most likely ignore.

What will the IRS do next if I do not withdraw my amended returns within 30 days? What recourses do I have at my disposal that will not cost a fortune. I have been unemployed for nearly a year due to COVID, though I have recently obtained employment in my field, but I do not have resources sufficient for an expensive battle. They already have my money and I have had no issues in the past few returns with Lawful Money Reduction, I have always received a refund.

I also got a form 843 with just the amount of $500+ dollars. No explanation as to why or from where that credit was applied. I certainly didn't receive a check.

Janet Louise YELLEN was long time Governor on the Board (Fed).

This is where it pays to get on my Lesson Plan. It pays.

I got a call the other day from a suitor on the brain trust. He is experiencing prosperity of redemption and with it peace of mind. It occurred to him that he might give me a call and thank me. That was nice.