Adam, Satan, and the King of Tyre: The Interpretation of Ezekiel 28:11-19 in Late Ant

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The oracle against the King of Tyre, found in Ezekiel 28.12-19, is a difficult text that inspired diverse interpretations in Late Antiquity. For example, according to one rabbinic tradition the text spoke of the first man, Adam, while the Church Fathers found in the same text a description of the fall of Satan. This book studies the rabbinic sources, patristic literature, the Targum, and the ancient translations, and seeks to understand the reasons for the diverse interpretation, the interaction between the exegetical traditions and the communities of interpreters, in particular between Jews and Christians, and the effect the specific form and wording of the text had on the formation and development of each interpretation.

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I figure this book (pub 2012) might be of interest to many of you. In case you thought you knew it all...this puts a different perspective on the identity or nature of "helal" (translated "Lucifer" in Latin texts) referred to in the Book of Isaiah. Regarding the below links, I would tread prayerfully if not carefully but they are related to the book. The Lucifer translation is said to be 3rd century (isn't that when Manicheans and heretical Gnostics and others started co-opting the organic Ecclesia?) and beyond. To get to the quick, the first two pages of chapter 7 of the book (ie. the Conclusion) have been inserted below.

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Anytime someone has mentioned the idea of (unregenerate) man being God or asserting fleshly "godship" based on Adamic lineage (such as being "the Master Race" because of being Adamic"--think again!) I would wonder if they had forgotten the story of the Fall. Could there be in existence any secret societies or any people who worship any man in his fallen state? Remember, the serpent in the Garden was offering a means to "be like gods".

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MAN, however, is the one who has been all the things Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 speak of; namely, LUCIFER, the resident of EDEN, the BEAUTIFUL ONE, the PRINCE OF GOD, even the SHINING CHERUB among the STONES OF FIRE. He was in Eden, the Garden of God, in Paradise, in Heaven, ruling from the Mountain of God and among the Stones of fire -- radiating the glory of his creator. Even so, it was in a pale light, for he was only a model of finished product. But we see Jesus the true shining one coming forth with the awesome splendor of all those things and more, for the increase of His government there shall be no end! Source: The Lucifer Question by Elwin R. Roach

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Table from September 2006 Testimony Magazine article by David Green (link below)

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So could there be any connection between those that deny Jesus Christ and who claim unregenerate (fallen) men to be God and who claim to be "God" based on being of the "Adamic" race as some "master race" descended from Adam? Even those who exalt Nimrod or or any man in his fallen or degenerate state "above all the stars in heaven"?

As to the identify of Lucifer, there are those who suggest the Lucifer to be the King of Tyre (i.e. Hiram--some suggest Hiram Abiff). At the very least, could it be that the particulars or details of Adam's fall are elucidated (related to us) and laid bare to us in the stories of pride and over-exaltation of those like the King of Tyre or like one or more kings of Babylon?

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Isaiah 13—14 is an oracle against pride-filled Babylon whose spirit is well characterized in Nebuchadnezzar's arrogant boast, "Is not this the great Babylon I have built…by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?" See Daniel 4:30 and see Isaiah 47 with its tripled arrogance, "I will continue forever—the eternal queen," (47:7) "I am, and there is none besides me. I will never be a widow," (47:8) "I am, and there is none besides me." (47:10) We're dealing with a human kingdom and with all too-human rulers. We would do well to pay special attention to Daniel 2:37-38 which echoes the dominion speech of Genesis 1:28. As Adam was given dominion and sought sinful independence so Nebuchadnezzar was given dominion and recapitulated the Adamic sin of dismissing God and acting as a god to rival God. The whole of Daniel 4 is God's threat against pride and arrogance and Isaiah 13—14 adds to the picture. Source: Satan and the Kings Of Tyre and Babylon by Jim McGuiggan (link below)

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In any case, the above doesn't seem to evidence the idea of Adam having met with any "Serpent of Wisdom".

P.S. Remember when you read "son of man" in Isaiah 14 and in Ezekiel 28 it might be the same as "ben Adam/adam" or "son of Adam/adam" in Hebrew or Chaldee.

Related:

• Review of the book by Jim West of Quartz Hill School of Theology
• The Lucifer Question?
• Lucifer/Adam?
• The Lucifer Error
• The Covering Cherub and the Fall of Tyre (Ezekiel 28)
• Isaiah 14 (KJV and other translations at blueletterbible.org)
• Ezekiel 28 (KJV and other translations at blueletterbible.org)
• Amazon link for book
• Satan and the Kings Of Tyre and Babylon
• Adam the Anointed Cherub
• Neither the Prince of Tyre Nor the King of Babylon Is Satan

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Originally Posted by allodial

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I figure this book (pub 2012) might be of interest to many of you. In case you thought you knew it all...this puts a different perspective on the identity or nature of "helal" (translated "Lucifer" in Latin texts) referred to in the Book of Isaiah. Regarding the below links, I would tread prayerfully if not carefully but they are related to the book. The Lucifer translation is said to be 3rd century (isn't that when Manicheans and heretical Gnostics and others started co-opting the organic Ecclesia?) and beyond. To get to the quick, the first two pages of chapter 7 of the book (ie. the Conclusion) have been inserted below.


Anytime someone has mentioned the idea of (unregenerate) man being God or asserting fleshly "godship" based on Adamic lineage (such as being "the Master Race" because of being Adamic"--think again!) I would wonder if they had forgotten the story of the Fall. Could there be in existence any secret societies or any people who worship any man in his fallen state? Remember, the serpent in the Garden was offering a means to "be like gods".

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So could there be any connection between those that deny Jesus Christ and who claim unregenerate (fallen) men to be God and who claim to be "God" based on being of the "Adamic" race as some "master race" descended from Adam? Even those who exalt Nimrod or or any man in his fallen or degenerate state "above all the stars in heaven"?

As to the identify of Lucifer, there are those who suggest the Lucifer to be the King of Tyre (i.e. Hiram--some suggest Hiram Abiff). At the very least, could it be that the particulars or details of Adam's fall are elucidated (related to us) and laid bare to us in the stories of pride and over-exaltation of those like the King of Tyre or like one or more kings of Babylon?



In any case, the above doesn't seem to evidence the idea of Adam having met with any "Serpent of Wisdom".

P.S. Remember when you read "son of man" in Isaiah 14 and in Ezekiel 28 it might be the same as "ben Adam/adam" or "son of Adam/adam" in Hebrew or Chaldee.

Related:

• Review of the book by Jim West of Quartz Hill School of Theology
• The Lucifer Question?
• Lucifer/Adam?
• The Lucifer Error
• The Covering Cherub and the Fall of Tyre (Ezekiel 28)
• Isaiah 14 (KJV and other translations at blueletterbible.org)
• Ezekiel 28 (KJV and other translations at blueletterbible.org)
• Amazon link for book
• Satan and the Kings Of Tyre and Babylon
• Adam the Anointed Cherub

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Originally Posted by allodial

I figure this book (pub 2012) might be of interest to many of you. In case you thought you knew it all...

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does the author of this book "know it all"? does allodial? after the realization the I dont know much if any of what I thought I did, I started to question everything. Ive nearly concluded that all history is hearsay. how do you know it is not?

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Originally Posted by allodial

(isn't that when Manicheans and heretical Gnostics and others started co-opting the organic Ecclesia?)

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so in a way you are saying/writing that not all gnostics are heretical?

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Originally Posted by george

...does the author of this book "know it all"?

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The book has about 20 pages of bibliography and reference at the end before the index. AFAIK he makes reference to the ten volume set called The Ante-Nicene Fathers (from 325 AD and before) which can be found online. The book itself volume twenty of a twenty-nine volume set called "Jewish and Christian Perspectives Series".

The book itself contains actual translations and cross references from the Targum, the Septuagint and the Masoretic Text.

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so in a way you are saying/writing that not all gnostics are heretical?

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Are all kinds of knowing or knowledge heretical?

Re: hearsay
Perspective: If, say, one hundred people, were around you yelling, shooting and fighting each other to the death over some writings fifty years old, whether its hearsay or not...they are still yelling, shooting and fighting each other to the death over it. So why don't you go tell them that you're convinced that their fighting over hearsay?

Re: Adam
I don't necessarily take the perspective of Ezekiel referring to Adam, however there might be strong allusions to the nature of the Fall discussed in Genesis and that the propensity of certain earthly kings/queens/monarchs to claim status of God might be related to what occurred in the Garden of Eden story.

to my comprehension at this point, it is still all hearsay because I have no first hand knowledge of any history other than my own and strange as it may seem, I am questioning myself and what I consider firsthand knowledge. "question everything" sounds easy until you try it. it is a learning experience but what is learned is in a way the opposite of "knowledge" this s not a path I would recommend to others though. I do feel closer to god this way though.

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Originally Posted by allodial

Are all kinds of knowing or knowledge heretical?

Re: hearsay
Perspective: If, say, one hundred people, were around you yelling, shooting and fighting each other to the death over some writings fifty years old, whether its hearsay or not...they are still yelling, shooting and fighting each other to the death over it. So why don't you go tell them that you're convinced that their fighting over hearsay?

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dont you see? that is what I am doing posting in this thread in some way. and I do it in the wacky world everyday too. I see through most of the BS and try to show others how because if we could all see through it then we might have a chance to stop waring with each other. people do tend to get anger when you show them how they are not actually thinking completely before coming to conclusions. you may also but thats not my intention, its kinda like constructive criticism. some people want it, others do not. open or closed minded? "is your mind made up?" "get with the program!"

words are strange. spells even. in the beginning was the word and the word was? and how odd is it that hearsay and heretic sound so similar? they must have something in common..

even though its all hearsay, it is all interesting. some makes more sense than other and may seem more likely or even probable but to conclude either way seems foolish to me now.

what if history and even morso time itself is indeed an illusion? what if "me, myself, I" are also? when I consider these things I feel even closer to god. god might be all there is and "I" might be not unlike satan in some way?

I dunno, just rambling.. maybe xparte can make some sense out of it? ;-)

If one considers the recorded experiences of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jesus, Jeremiah, Elijah whether as fiction or otherwise, is it not remarkable that they were so not going along with everyone else, with what everyone else thought? AFAIK, none of them it seems were out to win popularity contests. The uncanny thing is if it all were hearsay and fiction, the experience they recorded tends to ring fervently with truth--as in if it was mere hearsay or fiction they why does the experience of so many people tend to serve as proofs?

I came across a very judgmental woman, she worshiped statues like many others but she was quick to be angry about my not having a last name (consider I was not employed in any way, I didnt hold a government office, I wasn't under any servitude--but she did; I wasn't worshiping any idols or member of any coven or cult either, no Sith Lord over me with authority to name me Darth Allodial--100% idol free). Now I had not borrowed money from her or entered into any business dealings with her--actually she was trying to get free stuff from me. Eventually, I put the riddle before her to discern whether she thought it to be wise for someone such as myself to take advise from someone who worships statues and prays to them. That if she was free to worship statues and pray to them and if she was free to marry and divorce and marry then divorce changing her "last name" at as she saw fit, then why ought I not be free to not have a last name at all? Its uncanny how the ways of deceptive people like her seems so well described as like a serpent-like and subtil.

When does the author have authority when the book is published or when its copyright Copyright is a legal right created by the law of a country that grants the creator of an original work exclusive rights to its use and distribution, usually for a limited time. The exclusive rights are not absolute; they are limited by limitations and exceptions to copyright law, including fair use.
Past tense: published;
(of an author or company) prepare and issue (a book, journal, piece of music, or other work) for public sale.Babel Bibel Bible its Authors and biblical authority Copyright who gets published when its HIS=STORY Gods Old Hebrew publicists Christ's new and improved testament MAN-U -SCRIPTS A manuscript is a handwritten work. It's still a manuscript if it's typed — manuscript, The noun manuscript evolved from the Latin manu scriptus, meaning “written by hand.” who,s hand we ask GOD gave hands to Men his law to Man the book deal is a Copyright exclusive rights are not absolute;they are limited by limitations Time might render limitations on Gods word but not on his law adding and subtraction and viewing persons .What Is it just a co-incidence that the name 'Israel' incorporates three gods/goddesses, or is it the reason for the name Israel? "God rules", or "God shines" Isis [IS] [RA] [EL] and YHWH were two separate 'gods' So we see that the gods El and Yahweh are distinct gods from each other, as distinct as their individual names. Yahweh was worshipped as a war god from the deserts of southern Palestine who migrated north to Judah while El was the god of Israel whose home was Mesopotamia. Historically speaking, the two gods must be regarded as originally distinct that subsequently were related and finally identified through political and religious syncreticism. Earth Goddess Sun God war God whats in a Name see: YHWH as Marduk.Religious syncretism exhibits blending of two or more religious belief systems into a new system, or the incorporation into a religious tradition of beliefs from unrelated traditions. The Bible The people of the book or the people in the book If Christ was a war God we know what war the messiah was sent for A messiah (literally, "anointed one") has come to be seen as a saviour or liberator of a group of people, most commonly in the Abrahamic religions. In the Hebrew Bible, a Hebrew: ????????, Modern mashia?, Tiberian m?šî?? ("messiah") is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.And under what authority does a handful of rabbinical un most high hill-billies pass a jug of holy anointing oil around until a royal war king gets that temple appointment . Messianic Judaism that anointing oil is slick like Roman olive oil. {Gods law ] snake oil massage the truth only needs oil.Man has no explanation for the Truth he has never had occasion to doubt it exists the best invention is that its one Mans the kings. A life can be based on a book a book can be based on a fact truth has nothing to do with a fact. suffer the truth one fact at a time its a fact i tied my wife to the fridge how she got so fat God only knows. Are liars tied to the truth God only knows.

I like how the Scripture destroys common sense why put 10 commandments in a book that in the beginning didnt need them if i wrote with a crayon would a Man with a pen be any better at writing the word . I know what i read if jona and the whale were pride in the real sea world we got ones that wont spit ya out. know one word that could fill a void then spit ya out Parse out void depths Given that the Bible and Scripture is referred to as God's word, Though 'Word' and 'Scripture' are very much related, they are necessarily not the same.The 'Word'Christ,{man] who existed in the beginning with God. 'Scripture' in the context of the Bible mostly refers to the written words of God. Scripture is a subset of the Word. The Scripture may represent the Word and illustrates the picture of the Word but it cannot fully explain it, because scriptures are written in human language which has limitations to describe Heavenly things. a son of god who said those words forget i just said it just crayon scripture not proud penmanship put the brass knuckle therapy to scripture till that whale spits up one Word thats written in stone not a man u script the Scripture that we have is not equivalent to the Word,We cannot say that the words we have in the Bible are the only words that God has spoken. At the best of times the word [God] was ignored is Abram going to tell us why he and the word [ God] got lost and why the Name switch Scripture tells us God lost word being Abraham God puts faith in his word why Scripture gets lost.

When is the word of God Scripture thats the rub knowing a rabbi needs Judaism is far from the word of God is it coincidence Christ and all his teachings are about the one word that is God the highest authority for a son of God is accept no other Gods Egyptian Palestinian [Greek Roman] Hebrew Babylonian Iranian Slaves Man has enslaved Man are we waiting in chains for judgement do we need a monster greater than man If scribes are on the payroll how much script is Gods and is the difference what Man owes God where,s the change

A man's imagination can be quite powerful and have much effect on his life and potentially on the lives of others. The Garden of Eden story it seems is one where the Serpent deceptively appealed to both imagination and emotion, quite a powerful combination.

We read the word of God now from scripture. Its has to be true that Gods language his word was Hebrew for Judaism to work or the temple priests are they just speaking scripture.what does it take to be deceived ones self and ones ego let no man deceive you well Christ has deceived his temple and God with claiming to be the son of God In the Greek A son of God well A man's imagination can be quite powerful if being a rabbi did Christ say he was God .The Hebrew people were told a messianic war king was on the way and a man of peace shows up in a war zone at any cost its eye for eye old testament religion the Christ was the General Patton the brass needed rid of to that end the Latin scripture claims Judaism killed Gods only son the son of God well a Roman governor found no falt in this Man Christ so a military trial for the king of the jews a messianic war god standing mute in Roman civil law court Marshall very plain how the venue got switched a man of peace venues into man of war the Hebrew government not the Hebrew people are in charge of the temple Gentiles are men from other nations Abraham was made father of all the Nations so the goy trading roman coins for shekels is arms length from nobody Christ new what nations the money came from and whos tres usury it benefited .The first king of salem to the coming of Christ is the word of God if man has the word of God its has been written on his soul the reference to scripture is the lifting of the soul I mind what i say [said] not who i say [said] it to as i can only speak too self. a long talk to the self unto self one must be true.religion separates a common God of love into a thug so we know its working fine by design if offended any religion i apologise its not something i practise and its not my job.

so in a way you are saying/writing that not all gnostics are heretical?Are all kinds of knowing or knowledge heretical? Christ calling himself the son of God is heresy.or hearsay or believing in or practicing religious heresy.killing the knowledge or its message what is moot a corruption of Christ knowledge hardly worth the logos his marker the [cross] the message gets gnostic-al he said she said all the warnings signs were up in the garden and still are do we know the messenger got killed for his message yes
" do we know who put the warning signs up yes Now who took the warnings signs down and is hiding a message, Not all Knowledge is Gods what,s left is heretical its creation a persona the mask of God . If one knew how to add laws to Gods he be a all knowing God Man has enslaved man God has given man his law keep that the rest is hearsay or His story

The Garden of Eden story it seems is one where the Serpent deceptively appealed to both imagination and emotion, quite a powerful combination.Its always been two innocents curiosity kills a evil cat as well as a good cat remorse is a curiosity in some men.The garden has two trees two paths duality is a franchise the mistake god made was telling adam he had a choice or knowing adams choice No mistakes were made Man has both now The garden still belongs to god if its evil thats who,s choice .When a thought is evil who owns it and acts upon it are by choice.If a creation story helps folks deal with the choices adam and eve its all about us.

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Originally Posted by xparte

The Garden of Eden story it seems is one where the Serpent deceptively appealed to both imagination and emotion, quite a powerful combination.Its always been two innocents curiosity kills a evil cat as well as a good cat remorse is a curiosity in some men.The garden has two trees two paths duality is a franchise the mistake god made was telling adam he had a choice or knowing adams choice No mistakes were made Man has both now The garden still belongs to god if its evil thats who,s choice .When a thought is evil who owns it and acts upon it are by choice.If a creation story helps folks deal with the choices adam and eve its all about us.

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That serpent kind of sounds like the Spinal Cord - and the Man kinda seems like the Mind and the woman Eve sort of seems like the Emotions. But that could not be especially when you consider that a loving God cursed all of humanity for eating some fruit. Of course you understand I write in jest.

Re: Hearsay
That something was or is hearsay did or does not invalidate it. If someone gives you a first-hand report it is not hearsay. Its only when you relate second-hand what you have heard first-hand from someone else does it become hearsay.

Hearsay and Heresy Have Unrelated Linguistic Roots (hear + say != heresy)
From Grammarphobia.com:

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“Hearsay” was first recorded in writing in 1532, and is described by the Oxford English Dictionary as a substitute use of the phrase “to hear say,” which in turn was in use before the year 1000.

The OED defines “hearsay” this way: “That which one hears or has heard some one say; information received by word of mouth, usually with implication that it is not trustworthy; oral tidings; report, tradition, rumour, common talk, gossip.”

The roots of the noun, the verbs “hear” and “say,” go back to Old English and have their origins in ancient Germanic sources.

The noun “heresy,” on the other hand, is from Greek.

It was borrowed into English, probably before 1200, from the Old French word eresie or heresie, an adaptation of the Latin haeresis, which comes from the Greek hairesis.

The meaning in the classical languages was broader than in English and referred to a taking, a choosing, a school of thought, a set of philosophical principles.

The English “heresy” is defined by the OED as “theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the ‘catholic’ or orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox.”

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There is more relationship between 'creator' and 'creditor' than between heresy and hearsay. The English language is not the best language to attempt word cleverness like that.

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Re: sons of God
I suppose one who fails to comprehend the relationship between the role of creator and father and created and son would consider someone calling themselves a son of God to be a heresy.

If the State can have children (parens patrie) then what an error to believe in the living God's inability to father. The idea of denying the possibility of there being any such things as "Sons of God" is to deny God's power to create or to give life. Those who ask for or seek out an impersonal god just might get what they ask for--but they ought not hate on to those who have done otherwise. Perhaps the heretical Gnostics' detesting the physical realm some relates to the Serpent's perspective on being under the curse of feeding on dust and not liking it.

Would it Greek to Latin relationship between a son being a man of God Its no secrete linguistics are clever the Pharisees accused Christ with a Hebrew blasphemy claiming to be the only son of God i say thats Hearsay and Heresy Have Unrelated Linguistic Roots (hear + say != heresy) words and the authority are Unrelated at last thought what would be the outcome for claiming i am a son of God Man is the son of God The clever part is the English translators use of parenthesis in KJB the son Greek a son. Christ is God yet the point i want too stress he said a man is a son of God me and every living man are the bosses son talking lodial title hear say eth the lord brother the english bible puts a spin on every snooker table = court table putting english on it one thing i have no interest in my comparisons are painfully obvious and instinctive in nature i like george question motives for the words.Now a corruption "Sons of God" its correction as Christ a son of God or a man of God not a man of the cloth a Naked Christ a man his Christ and a God called trinity. The personnel or impersonal relationships are the Words of Men and correcting Man is a thought process asking a computer for insight depends on the pro grammar my faith is in Christ.s message my fate is in Gods hands all the sums of bitches might be another Mans plan. Christ was not created but was rather the Creator. God the Son, was not created. He has always existed; He has no beginning or end. Man was created in image and spirit “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God”To be the Son of God is to be of the same nature as God. The Son of God is “of God.” “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.” well i am claiming to be a Man a created being. Christ came to his creation in the form of a Man to help the creation know the creator. Judas a man “son of perdition.”Judas was not the literal son of “ruin, destruction, and waste,” but those things were the identity of Judas' life. Judas was a manifestation of perdition. In this same way, Christ is the Son of God. The Son of God is God. Jesus is God made manifest (John 1:1, 14). Far be it from me to Spirit stiff any Man with my availed words,The Law book ENGLISH as KJB Allodial dear friend knowing the amount of diligence and study and presentation that all your posts provide a self concious approach for retaining ones truth grace before glory is our shared story Minister on to those who have done otherwise Perhaps the heretical Gnostics' detesting the physical notion of a Man called Trinity.

Bible suggests only begotten son rather than only son. The spin doctors try make it out to say "only son" because that obscures the potential of a plurality.

It might also be worth noting that those Samaritans or Edomites who were imported to Judea back around Jeroboam's time may have been still hanging around come 30AD.

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The Assyrians practiced massive deportation and resettlement, reasoning that displaced populations could not form any cohesive guerrilla forces or significant underground, that Assyria would not be threatened from within.

Now note the following verse of this same passage: "And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed THEM in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof " (II Kings 17:24).

There were originally five Babylonian tribes who had been transported to the area where Northern Israel once lived before Israel's inglorious defeat and captivity by the Assyrians. When these five tribes moved INTO the vacant land of Samaria, they brought their Babylonian and Assyrian gods with them.

It is these foreigners who were living in the land of Samaria in the time of the Messiah and who were called Samaritans in the Gospel records. It is well to keep that in mind. For the Samaritans of the New Testament were not in any sense a racial mixture with the Israelites. After a short time in their new country, they were ravaged by lions. They interpreted this punishment as coming upon them because they failed to honor the god of the new land. They asked the Assyrian king to send back one of the priests of Israel to teach them the former religion in order that the plague of lions would be stayed. The Israelitish priest who was sent to them taught the religion of Northern Israel. But that priest was one of the former calf-worshipping priests of the rebel Israelites. He was as pagan as the Babylonians themselves! Only one individual — a priest-returned from among the captive Israelites to teach the newly planted Gentiles the corrupted religion of Israel (II Kings 17:27-28).

These people from the land of Babylon, however, did not follow YEHOVAH God, nor YEHOVAH's ways, nor His religion. The very next verse shows this: But "every nation [still] made gods of their own..." (II Kings 17:29).

This priest of Israel taught the Babylonians — now called SAMARITANS — to adopt the former worship of the Northern Israelites. The priest taught them to revere YEHOVAH as the "God of the Land." Thus, these Samaritans finally took upon themselves the NAME: The People of YEHOVAH; but their religion was outright paganism — a mixture of Israelitish calf-worship and Babylonianism — just as Simon Magus later was eager to appropriate the Messiah's NAME, but continue his pagan abominations!

The general state religion of the Assyrians and Babylonians was the Chaldean mystery religion. This was the religion of Simon the sorcerer (Acts 8) who believed Philip's miracles, appropriated the name "Christian," and started a new counterfeit "Christianity" after the apostle Peter rejected him as being bound in "iniquity" — i.e., "lawlessness." He took the name of the Messiah, rejected YEHOVAH's law, and added licentious false "grace" to the Babylonian mystery religion, calling it "Christianity." This false "Christianity" has deceived millions down to this present generation! Source: Just What Is The "Synagogue of Satan"?

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Far be it from me to Spirit stiff any Man with my availed words,Man will be taught only the lessons sought a view a vista real estate or burnin ground bastards and dead beat dads

Oddly enough, in financial/bank speak: a 'dead beat' is someone who pays on time or in full and thusly isn't a source of any extra $$$ than he ought to be. By being astute or wise, there isn't any extra interest or litigation to drive more money or to drive the system and create more activity thusly:dead beat.

Attachment 2719.

Let's hone in on the key:

Attachment 2720

So if someone tries to trick you into being a stooge and your failing to falling for it would fail to result in enrichment to the trickster than he ought to have, then they'd be considered to be a deadbeat (not much activity). So if say the bank knows it was paid, and you refuse to get gummed up in paying two or three or more times: if you don't go along with it then the response is exactly the same as the input: deadbeat. By using the term perhaps they are inadvertently admitting that #1 they have already been paid #2 all subsequent billing is 'extra'.

The guy who borrows $100 and pays exactly $100 back on time and before accruing ridiculous interest => deadbeat. The guy who borrows $100, gets caught up in lawsuits, incurs $10,000 in attorneys fees and a court judgement for $5,000 interest + $100 != deadbeat because his blood flowed heartily to those who sought him as a victim.

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Originally Posted by Michael Joseph

That serpent kind of sounds like the Spinal Cord - and the Man kinda seems like the Mind and the woman Eve sort of seems like the Emotions. But that could not be especially when you consider that a loving God cursed all of humanity for eating some fruit. Of course you understand I write in jest.

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From: Daniel
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 4:02 PM
To: mj@
Subject: Gen 3

Michael,

I was reading 1Tim 2 last night which led me to Gen 3. I remember reading something you wrote on Gen 3, but not in detail. Was wondering if you had that study handy for review?

There is something between the 2 passages that has my attention. Mainly the part where Eve is cursed with labor pains travail or whatever. I am trying to understand the metaphysical meaning of the correlation between the two passages.

Blessings & Namaste,
Daniel


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Response by MJ:

I would like you to try to make the jump from fleshly understanding to try to see what is being reported in fleshly context is actually a report about the mental functions of the psyche and the realized self. I have written extensively on Gen 3. The woman in her glorified status [spirit] has taken her leave of the carnal mind of hue-mankind. She is in every living soul - and she is now Emotion. The Mind Adam must be considered in the Higher Self and the Lower Self. In the lower self the Mind Adam intercourses the Emotion Eve and she brings forth the desires of our heart. Therefore she brings forth under her own struggle. For she always brings the fruit to Adam [the mind] and the mind makes it so.

Therefore many are the children of desolation. Her children are not external to the male form. For the body in form [male or female] has nothing to do with the men and women [adam/eve] that dwell within each of us. The reason why Isis went searching for the penis of Osiris should be obvious to you at this point. It is not a religion, it is a Myth that is told too in the Bible but in different form.

When you understand the function of the penis, then you will come to see that it is what issues forth the seed. Therefore she is searching for the ability to impregnate her MIND so that we may ascend into higher consciousness. So that the children of God might be born. Don't you get it now? These women and men are aspects of yourself.

The serpent spoke exactly 46 words to Eve in Gen 3. Why? No. of Chromosomes. What is being said in Genesis 1&2 is the regeneration of man from his fallen carnal status into a 7th day man - Celestial. In Genesis 5 both Adam and Eve are called Adam...."and He called their name Adam". Question everything especially the literal dogma. When you come to see that Cain and Abel are within you, then you will no longer be left trying to decide if this event happened or not. It happens everyday Billions of times per day. Cain is a tiller of the ground - he forms religions/states. And therefore the "people of Cain" or those who occupy in the city [of consciousness] are subject to this type of mindset. Abel is also there, but the Cain in you always seeks to kill Abel when those type of Abel thoughts appear. For we want what we want and we will do what it takes to satiate our emotional delusions.

I know I am asking you to take a big leap, but try if you can. I mean Jesus himself said "flesh and blood will not enter into the Kingdom" - and yet folks go on and on about the "blood". Isn't it time to realize what is really being said? And what the blood symbolically represents? With what utter Genius is the Bible written! The carnal mind is totally blind to the Spiritual teachings embedded and stored up for the day when the Father decides the child is ready. Remember Gen 1&2. And Galations 4.

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Commentary: Now consider that the son of God is born of God. And specifically born into you by the virgin woman [Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Michal, Mary]. Now read this:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Commentary: Now don't let your carnality run wild thinking to yourself [ego] that you are "born from the Spirit above" so that you are good to go. Carnality does not inherit the Kingdom. The sons of God are the "thoughts of God". The daughters of God are the "desires of God". And since God dwells in the Temple of Man's Consciousness, then I shall have no other God's before Me.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Commentary: The devil is adversary of God, so what are the children [thoughts and desires]. And what is being said is the difference between the Christ Self and the Carnal Self. And this leads us back to Eve and Chapter 3. The aspect in you that is Eve [Emotion] began to listen [observe] from the central nervous system via the Spine [the golden candlestick]. And She urged Adam, your mind, to act. This is a SKISM apart from the Tree of Life which is NOT in man's intellect.

Remember Jesus commanded "fish out of the Right" and science has discovered that the intellect of man is left brain activity - of which we use 10% - and this my friend is the tithe!

Consider the absurdity of a "loving God" putting physical flesh into pain to bring forth physical children just because two ate of forbidden fruit. It is totally absurd. And you will remain in this absurd dogma until you realize that these two eating is a story of every choice that you have and will ever make. Now the question is how was the decision made? In your own will or did you go seeking the Will of Father? Did you die to your Carnal Self [flesh] awaiting the impulse of intuition [Angel] dispatched as envoy from the Throne Room of the MIND.

For the Son sits in the RIGHT SIDE - a High Priest [an office]. And it is this House of which there exists a closed door at the top of the winding stairs on the RIGHT.

1Ki 6:8 The door for the middle chamber was in the right side of the house: and they went up with winding stairs into the middle chamber, and out of the middle into the third.

Commentary: Quit looking for the garden EAST in Eden. Eden is your consciousness and the garden is East [Right]. You have been locked out of the Garden and Carnality cannot enter. So what will you do ? Will you carry your 20 lb Bible around or do you have enough Faith to follow the instruction of Jesus CHRIST who said "Come, the room is already fully furnished."

It is a question of Faith. What do you trust more? Your own experience or intellect or the Divine Spirit within each and every one of us? We cannot collectively answer this question. Why not?

Consider the wonder observation by Carl Jung who said that one realized soul is greater than one million souls who blindly submit to the rule of a dictator. What do you see when you look around? When you stop and really think about it what you see is what is going on exactly in your own head! You might say preposterous, you don't know me and that is true. But consider, do your thoughts serve you or do you serve your thoughts? Consider also your emotion and your flesh. Have you "girded your loins?" Meaning have you subdued your sexual lusts. In other words, what aspect of you is in control?

Many will never even think to ask such a question for they have never considered the "city of consciousness". Why not? For they are as Cain - killing the Spirit - and undertaking to "build the City" into their image and desires - of Carnality. See now why the Woman brings forth in pain? For the woman is your emotional nature. Now consider whereof is the "seed" which impregnates the woman to bring forth the child?

Have you never wondered at the constant advertising. These are seeds. But where is the farmer [husbandman] within you? Why isn't he removing the undesirable seed? Why is the "garden of Eden" full of weeds? Well you now have the answer. Because the Cain aspect of you is too busy building the "BEAST" - which is the city of Carnality. Said city is subject to man's lusts, greed, and fear. Look around what do you see?

Have you ever wondered at language. Cain went off to NOD and fell fast asleep. He is dead in the Spirit. These are the types of men/women who only see with literal eyes. Jesus asked "do you have eyes to see".

continuing....

Part II continuing..

Now to answer in regard to 1st Tim 2. I shall pick a few verses and give commentary. But you decide if this is truth for you.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.


Commentary: The Mind formed prior to emotion. Now stretch the tent chords of your mind to see if you can see past what you have been taught concerning sin. Please do try to consider that "sin" is the falling from the Spiritual Walk into the Carnal Walk. These are the TWIN boys Cain and Abel.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Commentary: The emotion is totally deceived by the sensory nature. She will always bring the fruit [impulses from the Central Nervous System] to the Mind. This deceived woman is our lower emotions [carnal].


1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Commentary: This woman is our Divine nature. If you like lets jump to Jacob [mind], Leah [emotion] Rachel [spirit]. This woman in v 15 is the virgin aspect in all of us that remain barren until we begin to tithe [our carnality] to God. When we stop from our carnality and die to the thoughts and desires of our lower nature, then the higher aspect of us can bring forth children of God. Thus the woman is saved in childbirth. This is quite beautiful when you realize that this story is telling you about how you are to interact with God. How you are created. I mean how long shall we continue in complete and total darkness absent knowledge and totally ignorant to our design. Remember the "children of God" cannot sin. Do you see why now? Because man's carnality has nothing to do with their birth!


Said another way the alter is not built with Bricks but of Stone. I hope you can see into that last statement.


1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

Commentary: Unfortunately, this verse has led idiot men to subjugate and oppress the beauty of woman. See how blind is the man who does not understand the Truth? Jesus did not say that we would learn his real name and then we would speak some sort of magical spell [uttering his name] to be saved. He said ye shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free.


1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Commentary: Again, we see ignorant men oppressing women. But now at last we are getting a real glimpse at what is being said. The woman is emotion. And emotion is NEVER to rule the mind. Now then consider the citizenry [wife] to the Officers of State [husband]. Before you go back to sleep - consider how do your thoughts serve you and from whence do they come? Were they delivered up to your court [Herod is the Carnal King] so that you might satisfy the woman of your emotion?

Do you understand now?


Mar 6:22 And when the daughter of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.

Commentary: Do you think the woman of emotion wants to go barren? Absolutely NOT. So when John [Spiritual Messenger] appears before the carnal Mind [Herod] the woman will always say:

Mar 6:25 And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.

Commentary: Has your carnal mind been fighting within this very moment? Of course it is. For it does not want to lose its stronghold. For notice at once another Kingdom exists...


Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Commentary: You got that? The impulse that seeded the thought came from another place in our consciousness. It did not come from Carnality. Carnal is low, valley, earth. Spirituality is high mountain. For high is The Way but unfortunately we find our faces cast toward the ground.

This is a personal journey and noone can take it for you. And all the preachers in the world do nothing but keep you from taking this inward journey into yourself. TAKE IT. Don't delay. Because...

Jer 12:9 Mine heritage is unto me as a speckled bird, the birds round about are against her; come ye, assemble all the beasts of the field, come to devour.

Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jer 12:11 They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart.

Commentary: The inheritance of God in Man is the "garden of Eden". But when we fall into Carnality we have chosen to separate ourselves from the Kingdom of God. Thusly many pastors who incorrectly teach the literal understandings of the Scripture keep mankind lost in confusion [babylon]. What an amazing discovery it is to find that I was the problem. I made the pleasant place desolate and full of thorn bushes. I, tilled the ground, in my own understandings under my own wisdom which is a function [equation] of my own experiences by and thru - you got it - my central nervous system. Therefore, not only did I not tend to the Garden of God, I left my own house spoiled as well. For thinking myself rich in substance I was but a beggar at the gate.

For the Holy Spirit said TODAY if you can hear His voice.

Heb_3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Spirit saith, To day if ye will hear His voice


Hearing His voice one is pointed to THE WAY.


Make it a great day!
MJ

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1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

Commentary: Unfortunately, this verse has led idiot men to subjugate and oppress the beauty of woman. See how blind is the man who does not understand the Truth? Jesus did not say that we would learn his real name and then we would speak some sort of magical spell [uttering his name] to be saved. He said ye shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you free.


1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Commentary: Again, we see ignorant men oppressing women. But now at last we are getting a real glimpse at what is being said. The woman is emotion. And emotion is NEVER to rule the mind. Now then consider the citizenry [wife] to the Officers of State [husband]. Before you go back to sleep - consider how do your thoughts serve you and from whence do they come? Were they delivered up to your court [Herod is the Carnal King] so that you might satisfy the woman of your emotion?

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Attachment 2722
Its very interesting to see these kinds of analysis. However, the truth is that women and effeminate men have tended to oppress men rather than the other way around and with or without the apparatus of the State to assist them. Women tend to be ruled by their emotions which is why they were to be kept out of certain positions and many men have suffered on account of failing to exercise wisdom. In my experience I have seen women time and time again deceived by some two-legged serpent who appealed to their emotions so that the two-legged serpent might obtain something to his advantage. Even advertising companies with the help of psychologists target women in commercials due to the same susceptibility that Eve evidenced--they know they cannot move men in the way that they would desire so they target women and children--those who are most susceptible to emotional attack or to suggestion generally. (If you like the idea of having a grumpy old man in your house telling your wife and kids how useless, fat or insufficient they are and how they can make up for it by buying lots of things...buy a television and let them watch it all day.)

Attachment 2723

If one looks to the original topic of the thread in the sense of the appropriate chapters of Ezekiel and Isaiah paralleling Adam's fall with the King of Tyre's fall, it might be that what is being said is that Adam rather than being deceived -> rebelled.

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Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it.... -Genesis 3:17 in part

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(i.e. because you rebelled/disobeyed)

Attachment 2721
The serpent perhaps chose an approach to appeal to both of their emotions. Could it be that the Serpent (a creature that is perhaps highly carnal by nature but yet intelligent) was the two-legged representative of a religion associated with serpent worship? Those who aim to over-abstract things perhaps lack the knowledge that in Egypt and other societies animals were studied for their natures and habits by some who felt it worthy to incorporate such natures into their lives. Forms of martial arts were said to have developed from studying animals such as bears fighting. What of those who incorporate the natures of certain animals into their lives on a higher level and more deeply so?

Attachment 2725
Could it be that those who insist the verses in Ezekiel or Isaiah to have nothing to do with Adam do so because that kind of idea might tend to support some other belief such as that of the Garden story being merely symbolic, it also causes one to fail to what might have really happened to Adam. Of course, the truth is that men and women as each symbolic of the passive and active aspects of life--it doesn't mean that men and women would necessarily lack existence simply because we can find symbolism. Those who ignore relevant chapters of Isaiah or Ezekiel as having to do with the fall of Adam and showing the echo or parallel such in Babylonian kings might do so because they wish away the whole Bible as being merely symbolic rather than seeing that life itself is full of hints and clues to be learned from.

Why is Ezekiel constantly being called "son of man" or "son of adam" or "son of Adam"? Maybe the lesson being taught to Ezekiel and by or through Ezekiel is one that remind us of what happened to Adam and of the importance of God's grace?

I have done extensive analysis and the story of Adam comes across clearly to be of someone being given a kingdom and losing it--that is plain and clear even in the English. I would say it to be being highly fruitful for anyone read the Song of Hannah and take in the references to 'dust' and God's providence as to kingships or dominion and THEN look at creation of Adam and the grant of dominion to Adam.

Attachment 2724

What better place to teach principles of life and reaping and sowing than a real garden even of that is just the beginning of a lesson on how your imagination, will, mind, mouth and emotions operate on reality. All of life itself might be a kind of garden.

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He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.

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The heretical Gnostic approach denies and obscures the applicability to reality and to real life of the lessons in the Bible. If you consider 'adam' being a word to refer to man generally what if..somehow the lesson about Adam is a lesson about every man, the man learns of the errors of those before him so that he can see the necessity for God's grace.

Consider:
Abram from among his people and land to even greater royalty as Abraham.
Moses raised into Egyptian royalty.
The saints from sin or darkness to be seated at the right hand of God. [Ephesians 1 and 2]
Nebuch. checked, eating grass, then back to his senses.

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Originally Posted by allodial

Re: Hearsay
That something was or is hearsay did or does not invalidate it.
If someone gives you a first-hand report it is not hearsay. Its only when you relate second-hand what you have heard first-hand from someone else does it become hearsay.

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in a childlike way.. if I hear someone, anyone say something. it is indeed hear-say. not to be argumentative but thats just what it is. it is first hand hearsay.

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Originally Posted by allodial

Hearsay and Heresy Have Unrelated Linguistic Roots (hear + say != heresy)
From Grammarphobia.com:

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grammarphobia.com LOL I like that! and "gramarphobia" I can relate too. ever hear of moneyphobia? it can happen from trying to follow David Merril's methodology and not being able to completely figure it out.

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Originally Posted by allodial

There is more relationship between 'creator' and 'creditor' than between heresy and hearsay. The English language is not the best language to attempt word cleverness like that.

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phonetically theyre about the same? if there is a better language for word cleverness (I cant even imagine it) what is it?



synncromatically LOL Im also on this "page" http://www.psyche.com/psyche/qbl/for...rlanguage.html I started a thread and bumped it yesterday with a link to this site. now Im finding I have a keen interest in learning hebrew but that sure seem a mighty lofty goal for me. for now I will keep reading the site in the link. the page I linked is as good as any to get an idea what the site is about but I linked it here due to the synchronicity it shares with your post (seemingly to me anyway) but also MJs following posts but in a different syncron.


speaking of David though.. where are you man? hope all is well!


thanks for your input on hearsay allodial, it makes sense too.

thanks

Man is forever explaining his past hiding his past and archiving achievements where have all the children gone just where Moses left them. Abraham is the father of all nations forget yours and pick one that's not been chosen yet. Mel Brooks is my favourite biblical satirist Christ can take a joke laughter is created out of love not much like the bible was,nt created out ta hate its a reference to the calamity as old as Methuselah let Mel live 750yrs Blazoning Sandles return to the desert less a Teutonic twat great gifts with laughter Brooks a fly on the wall dies on the wall.enjoy what one can endure what one must MJ Allodial thanks for getting off the wall .

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Originally Posted by Michael Joseph

Part III continuing..

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From: Doug
Subject: Re: Genesis 3

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

A warning to the "metaphor-worshipers", who disdain the literal (letter) as "dogma", just as the Christ of Luke 16:17 warns about here, trying to bypass the Law and take the kingdom by "forcing his way into it" [ie., by his own way, rules, ideas and laws of "higher consciousness"]

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


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Response by MJ:

Don't think that I dismiss the condescension of the Christ-soul into the lower physical plane. However about this "the law", it has nothing to do with carnality. How do I know, the Bible tells me so. I believe the bible.

God is Spirit and we are commanded to worship in Spirit and Truth. Spirit is universal - as God is universal - Christ is All and IN ALL.

Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be

Commentary: I love The Law - the Universal Way. Let us all strive to keep it for it is a Spiritual Way. How do I know? The Bible tells me so!


Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Commentary: Thank you for your wonderful response about keeping the Spiritual Law - let us climb the Mountain into the Higher Realms leaving the valley whereupon dwells the "shadow of death" in bondage. I shall have no other God's before Me. For Immanuel - In Me. Just as Jesus Christ said. I will dwell IN YOU. Christ is the Vine. Let us be bold enough to remove ourselves from Lot so that as Abram we can move on to "higher ground".

For just as the cosmic struggle at Matthew 4 happened to Jesus it happens to us everyday in every choice presented. The same story is told of Abram. In fact I will take the time this fine morning.

Given: Abram has separated from Lot and is now moving away into "higher realms". Abram is crossing over the river Jordan [not literally] he is crossing over - Passover - into Spiritual Life [Alive in Christ]. Lot has been taken prisoner and Abram goes not to rescue him [the greatest in the Kingdom is the servant]. Abram has won the day and now we can pick up the tale.


1. The King of Sodom comes out to meet Abram with a sweet offer.

Gen 14:17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.

Commentary: This is akin to:

Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

Commentary: We cannot dismiss Matthew 4:1 - which said this is all happening "in the Spirit". And we see in Genesis 14:17 that this King of Sodom is akin to the King of the Carnal Mind which now comes to Abram once Abram has sought to cross over from Carnality into Spirituality - and this King of Sodom [the place of burning] makes a sweet deal to Abram. Basically he says, come back to follow my lead and I will give you all that your heart desires. Physical desires that is. This is akin to following one's own intellect/emotions - which is the Kingdom of this World [Carnality].

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Commentary: In jest I offer the following: you know because there exists an extremely "high mountain" on this pear shaped earth of which one might "physically see" all the kingdoms of this earth. No, friends, I don't think so. This is a Spiritual ascension. And this is exactly where Abram is when the so called "King of Sodom" comes forth with his offer. And we know that the "devil" is Adversary and this should ring a bell in regard to the Carnal Mind which is Adversary against God. I wonder will our heroes succumb into Carnality or will they die on the cross to flesh.

Important note: This allegory is about the Mind and the internal struggle. For at once we notice Abram has yet to receive his new "white stone" whereupon he received his new name "Abraham" and we will soon find out why. But for now Abram has declined the offer of the "King of Sodom" which is his Carnal Mind standing in the Temple of God claiming to be God. But let's continue on.


Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Commentary: Abram has crossed over from Carnality into Spirit and when that happens Melchizedek the TITLE of the priest who has the office of bringing forth:

Bread: a symbol of the spiritual food of the soul; namely truth
Wine: a symbol of wisdom

And try to keep up - this Melchizedek symbolizes the Spiritual OFFICE of the priest that dwells within the Temple of Man in Higher Consciousness. Thusly the work of this Melchizedek is an office and the officer who abides in this office is called a Priest. How do I know, the Bible tells me so. Ref Hebrews 7. And this is why this Melchizedek is called King of Peace. Ref Isaiah 9:6.


Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:


Commentary: Now verse 19 is astounding. Abram is blessed by this Melchizedek just as Jesus was blessed when He overcame his lower carnal self. And now Abram is sitting under the Apple Tree learning of Truth without the confusion of the worldly subjective opinions. For this relationship is internal and not subject to "what do you think" or "the masses think differently."

Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Commentary: Metaphysically how can one tithe internally? That is easy - one refuses to accept the will of his lower carnal self. One submits in totality to Jesus Christ who is this Melchizedek in the Right side of the Temple of God. Which is to say, one is not dependent upon one's five senses [five lords of the Philistines] and the half truth or falsities these bring forth. Therefore the tithe is to sacrifice the thoughts of the emotional / intellectualism in regard to the vanity and imaginations of what "we think" according to what our senses tell us. We await the messenger from the East [Spirit] sent forth from the Office of Melchizedek - bringing bread and wine. The small voice [internally] which says "this is the way walk ye in it". Abram did not give money or substance - he gave of his thoughts. Not my will be done but Thy Will be done.

For this is the seeking of the very Good.

Gen 14:21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

Commentary: A counteroffer. The persons are the thoughts which are meant to serve us. Therefore the King of the Carnal Mind says remain carnal don't enter into The Way - Spiritual Path and I will give you substance. "Stick with me kid" and you will have all your hearts desires. Egypt is a shaky reed friends. Again, friends it is a matter of TRUST.

Gen 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Gen 14:23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:

Commentary: Abram has "crossed over". He has now eaten from the Tree of Life supplied to him by the Priest operating within the "office of Melchizedek" at the Right side of the Temple comes forth the Spiritual High Priest within our consciousness speaking "Peace be unto you". And Abram will not "eat" of the "fruit" of carnality. For this is unprofitable and is akin to those who took of their estate and left the father - prodigal sons. Who choose to remain in carnality. This choice is manifest in Lot. Abram had to choose to separate from Lot.

Carnality only keeps one enslaved in the lower physical and mental realms. For what did the King of Sodom request? Abram would give him all the "persons" which symbolize the thoughts of the lower physical /mental realms. By the way, I will jump ahead just a bit to say this is why Abraham is called the "Father of many Nations" - for now this Abraham is the Christ Self [we are to be conformed into the same image yes] sitting in the Throne Room governing all the thoughts in all the realms.

And now that Abram has crossed over - passed over, the son of God shall be birthed into him. For now God will grant a child. This grant of child will never come from God when one is operating under the Yoke of the King of Sodom. One must cross over from the Left to the Right side of the house, tithing the intellect/emotions so that Spirit might ascend. This is not just a belief as some would propound, this is a Way of Life.

Continuing.....

Part IV Continuing....

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.


Commentary: At this point, Abram can hear directly God. And friends so can you To Day.

Gen 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

Commentary: The bowels symbolize his own "virgin" consciousness. We can now fast forward a bit to Hagar and Sarah which are an allegory in regard to our conscious mind. How do I know? The Bible tells me so.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.


Commentary: Hagar issues the son of which came forth out of the will of the flesh or carnality. This son came forth out of the emotional/intellectual response of reason regarding their circumstance. This son represents that which is born from carnality into this world therefore this son is "of the world" and is therefore Desolate in terms of the Kingdom of Heaven. Come out of HER O my people....you get it now?

And this son sees "the Law" only in regard to this world and the circumstances and intercourses with matter. So we see "this son" is in bondage [slavery] to the King of the Carnal Mind - or, if you are keeping up - the Devil, Satan or the King of Sodom. All of those titles get it done.


Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Commentary: Notice this Hagar represents the Woman who receives the seed from the Carnal Mind. She is therefore always in bondage for Spirit understands matter and proceeded matter. Therefore this Woman is EMOTION. For first was Adam, then Eve. Abram slipped a bit and succumbed to carnal demands. As a man thinks in his heart [mind] so is he. Ring a bell? But notice the peculiar verse 25. But Jerusalem which is ABOVE. Why the curious word ABOVE? And how can a city be the mother of us all - UNLESS the city is the place of consciousness whereof the children of God are born in mankind.

Now then the "child of promise" is the "child of God". And the children of God are born absent Sin because there is no carnality associated with their birth. These are born into the Conscious Mind absent the fleshly carnal mind.

Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Isa 54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

Commentary: The Holy Spirit will not birth the "children of promise" in us as long as we remain carnal. Therefore we read in the report:

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


Commentary: And now we see that story of Sampson and Delilah. For she is the woman of emotion that seeks to bring down the Spiritual Man. For now this woman is jealous of the other woman which is the married wife who births the "children of promise" in man. Thou shall not commit Adultery - get it now?

This other woman of emotion has now been left alone and therefore she seeks to "cut the hair" of this man. Hair of course grows on the head and drops down towards the feet. Thusly, in cutting the hair, this symbolizes the "cutting away" or "falling" from life into death.

There are thusly two estates:

1. Alive in Christ.
2. Dead in Christ.

To walk under the will of Carnality is to be Dead in Christ. You probably never put together these concepts with the adoption of the CQVT of which the Kings brought forth to show - yet who can see to see?

Now notice that the Carnal Mind is NOT led by the Spirit of God. Therefore it is not subject to the Law of God. As it does not CONSENT in MARRIAGE. Now do you understand "wives submit yourselves unto your husband"? This is metaphysical speaking to the Mind. For God is Spirit and the Father is not pleased by FLESHLY worship - keeping of days, not eating of foods, etc, etc, rather the Father seeks those to worship in Spirit and in Truth!

The "child of promise" is available for each and every one of us. This day. But a choice remains. Is it now time to kick out Lot and begin to move into higher ground? To ascend in conscience to Jerusalem ABOVE - the mother of us all.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Commentary: Now clearly verses 8 and 9 have been miserably misinterpreted by the religious folk. For one will say I am saved or "born again" and yet these continue day in and day out to sin and sin and sin. So what is being said? How can verse 9 be? Well friends, you now know what these two verses are stating. Carnality is against God [Romans 8:7] and is not subject to God. Thusly from the beginning of life we "learn" as we are "socialized" by others [many pastors have spoiled my pleasant place - Jeremiah 12]. We are taught to trust in matter which is to say our senses. We are told to fear God and serve God else this "Loving God" will burn me for eternity. Therefore from the beginning we fall headlong [with some help of dearly loved ones] into the depths of Hell [carnality] whereof we become subject to the Adversary - the King of the Carnal Mind. And it is this aspect of ourselves which stands in the Temple of God claiming to be God BECAUSE we follow in consent. Our trust is expressed in word and implied in deed. And we end up walking out of lives under our will absent the Will of God. And the Will of God is Good. Therefore a breach or a stoke remains in our conscience until the day that we realize this fact and we begin to tithe the ten percent to God. And what is promised is a child. A renewing of our Heaven and our Earth. Which is born in us from ABOVE. Thusly we are Born of the Spirit ABOVE. And the heavenly woman- the Holy Spirit births the man-child in us. But Carnality [the Dragon] stand ready to destroy this child at its birth [Ref Revelation 12]

High is The Way - but unfortunately many keep their face towards the ground to the desert of the real. Therefore "for this cause" the "children of God" are born into man to TURN man's eyes away from the Earth and to close the physical eyes so that the Spiritual eyes might begin to see. [Ref v8] For indeed the Serpent [Central Nervous System] did lie - for to eat of this tree shuts the Spiritual Eyes. And coming full circle back to Genesis 3: let's do a bit of a word study:

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Commentary: This is true, but the Spiritual Eyes would be closed. So let's learn about this "Tree".

H6086
??
ates
From H6095; a tree (from its firmness); hence wood (plural sticks): - + carpenter, gallows, helve, + pine, plank, staff, stalk, stick, stock, timber, tree, wood.


H6095
???
aw-tsaw'
A primitive root; properly to fasten (or make firm), that is, to close (the eyes): - shut.


H6096
???
aw-tseh'
From H6095; the spine (as giving firmness to the body): - back bone.


Commentary: This is akin to Sampson's hair being cut by the Woman of EMOTION - and thusly his eyes were put out by the five lords of the Philistines [five senses - Central Nervous System] - and he was made to serve in bondage under the Yoke of Carnal oppression. For as the King of Sodom says "give me your persons and you can keep the spoil". Which is akin to submit to me and you can have it all.


Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


Thank you Doug for prompting my hand to keyboard. Have a blessed day.


Shalom,
MJ

Part V Continuing....


From: Doug
Subject: Re: Genesis 3

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The "spiritual law" does not dismiss physical literal obedience to its physical literal requirements... which the Creator says is needed to perfect it in one's being.

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


=======================

Response by MJ:


The crux of works begs the question of which goes to origins. Whereof is the leadership which proceeded the "child" [thought or desire] which was manifest in the work? Did such seed come from Carnality or from Spirit? Therefore the children of God cannot sin. And one walking in the Spirit walks under the leadership [Administration] of the Spirit and therefore fulfills the Law in his/her daily walk in Grace - which is to say inheriting the Good everyday. Herein is freedom. And who shall lay charge upon God?

I do not think myself separate from God in regard to my works therefore I let no man judge me. I am saved everyday whereof I remain walking in the Grace of Spirit. For how can God annul God?

I hope you can hear the words of St. Paul. Are you ready to "move away" from these initiation doctrines into Christ so that you might be taught the Truth by Melchizedek WITHIN bringing forth the bread and the wine?


Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


How many times will you lay again the foundation of "faith towards God"?


Gal_4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,


Hmmmm. Seems St. Paul was thinking Christ in Me. I wonder if St. Paul had Christ in him too?

I, Michael Joseph, die daily - thusly my Carnality which is NOT subject to the Law of God dies in sacrifice on the Alter - my tithe - my flesh [carnality] is crucified on the Cross of my Mind.


Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Faith begs a Trust. And a trust begs a Director, a Trustee and a Creator and a Beneficiary. The Power of Direction is in the Holy Spirit. The Trustee is Priest of Melchizedek - Christ;

El Elyon - expressed as Christ, as Creator
Beneficiary - Me

Thusly Christ IN ME the hope of glory. Thusly my Faith is understood by my Trust in SUBMISSION to the Orders [power of direction] which is to say the LEADERSHIP or ADMINISTRATION of the Kingdom of God. Therefore what is born of God cannot sin. To think I have to do anything is to elevate YET AGAIN the King of Tyre [Sodom, Satan, Devil, Carnal Mind] to the throne sitting in the Temple of God showing himself to be God.


He who is led by the Spirit under the Spiritual Law cannot sin. To think that I must do a fleshly deed is to think that I am separate from God and that is a falling from Grace into bondage. Thank you for your response. For the children of God born of God cannot sin. Thusly this has nothing to do with the misconception of Salvation that is wrongly taught by the churches.

Nevertheless, I am with a Choice to obey or rebel.

Thusly Reason [Moses] demands choose ye this day whom ye shall serve. And now we see Genesis 1 as it was meant to be seen - a work of God in man bringing man from a natural carnal status into a Celestial status - a 7th day Man - whereof he finds rest. Now you might be beginning to get a glimpse of what Sabbath is about - which is to say resting from Carnality [Leaven].

God working in man transforming man from glory into Glory - which is to say in conformance to the image of His Son - Christ. Therefore when we reach the Status of Abraham we have been given a NEW NAME a white stone and we may become a Pillar in the Household of God.

Thank you for your conversation - iron sharpens iron.

Shalom,
Michael Joseph

Part VI

From: Doug
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2015 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Genesis 3


1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Thanks for your concise reply clearly stating your position... which seems clearly in opposition to what the inspired Apostle John says here... ie., "And if anyone sins..."

=========================

Response by MJ:

It appears that you don't comprehend what you are reading. If I account myself as a child of God that is just my ego lying to myself. The child of God cannot sin. But Carnality sins all the time. Thusly I, Michael Joseph, am dead under the Law because in my Carnality I sin constantly. And it seems St. Paul agrees with me in regard to his existence. Like I said, it only seems, because you don't seem to hear what is being said. The child of God is born absent Carnality by the Spirit. Thusly in Flesh Consciousness [Carnality] Sin abounds in EVERYONE. However knowing that my Life is held in Trust in Christ who abides IN ME, then my job is to get out of my own way and seek the Administration of the Spirit. Therefore as I walk under the Administration of the Spirit, I cannot sin in those deeds. For I walk under the Order's of God. Therefore who shall lay any charge upon God's elect?

The answer is no one! Read and reread maybe you will begin to see.

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Commentary: My religion is Love. Why do you suppose religion has everyone thinking just because they ask of Jesus, Mohammad, Krishna, etc. they are saved? Do they continue to sin? You had better believe it. This is why Salvation is a "process of time" and St. Paul said "finish the race". Therefore to walk in the Will of God is to be in perfect accord with the Kingdom of God and thusly to be in agreement with the Will of God is to walk in perfect love. That is not to say that Michael Joseph does not slip up and fall into carnality - I do that daily too. Therefore I die daily. At each choice - is the cosmic struggle between the Serpent and the Will of God. What will I do?

Now I ask of you - rather forget that - I have never said I am absent sin. I rather have said that the children of God are absent sin. Whereof I believe most are in error is in thinking of themselves [ego/personality] that this is what is meant as the children of God. This is not true. For these are the King's of the Carnal Mind. And these seek their own - desiring only to continue and seeking only their own benefit and to hell with everyone else who does not conform or comply with the tribal religion of which said ego/personality enjoins itself.

The children of God are Spiritual. In the allegory of Lot, the two VIRGIN daughters are sent outside the HOUSE to the lower carnal mind. And yet, what does light have to do with darkness. And yet darkness still seeks to push in the door only to be blinded.

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Commentary:Why can't the children of God sin? Because his seed remaineth in them. The seed is not of Carnality born of lust, greed and fear - Emotion. Nevertheless, we press on in love in hopes that Christ will manifest in the Consciousness of man-kind and this earth will be transformed into Heaven. For Christ IN ME - and it is no longer I but Christ in ME. Therefore I shall have no other gods before Me. The hands that type these words are the hands of God.

Michael Joseph is dead. Therefore what law operates upon a dead man?

What law would you have me keep to appease your conscience?

At once I have bound myself by such an absurdity. For the law killed me in my constant sin. And it is only the birthing of the sons and daughters of God in me - as Saviors come up on Mount Zion - that rescues me from me. Therefore it is Christ in me. And no longer I but Christ in me.

Oba_1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

Commentary:Esau of course was fleshly and therefore symbolizes carnality. But when Salvation comes carnality submits to Spirituality and the breach is cured. Perhaps you think me to identify me as my thoughts, feelings, etc. Then you think wrong. Perhaps that is where we grow apart. The Serpent indeed has a stranglehold on this earthly existence.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Commentary:Now I beg of you how can I be risen with Christ today? I mean come on lets stop playing games here. How can I be in a fleshly body and be risen with Christ today? And yet there it is! My MIND has ascended ABOVE that which is carnal and it is there where I find Christ IN ME in the Right Side. Which is exactly what is alluded to "fish out of the Right side of the boat". And they pulled in 153 GREAT FISHES. And now how can I be risen with Christ and be dead at the same time. I mean come on man. Which is it? Isn't it obvious that this is a discourse concerning Consciousness? For Michael Joseph in Carnality is dead - died to the Law - for I broke one long ago - and it only takes one friend. Thusly seeing that I am dead, I am to set my affections on things above? Now this seems crazy to the literal mind. For how can a dead man set affections on anything - UNLESS - what died on the cross of the MIND - is my lower self.

Nevertheless the children of God born in the higher Self cannot sin. A personal walk is The Way. And the children of God are the "thoughts and desires" of God for Me. Thusly to know the Will of God is to understand the thoughts and desires of God for me. Thusly this is very intimate.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him:

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.


Commentary: Their MIND and CONSCIENCE huh? Hmmmmmm.


Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Commentary:Walk in the Will of God and the Law is fulfilled thusly Agage is Thelema : Love is to fulfill the Will of God for the Good of all. Christ All in All.

Therefore my Religion is Love.

Thank you for your conversation.


Make it a great day.
MJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by george

in a childlike way.. if I hear someone, anyone say something. it is indeed hear-say. not to be argumentative but thats just what it is. it is first hand hearsay.

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There are a lot of sites that do word play to the extent of great harm because they don't pay much attention to the etymology only sound alike. Hairspray also sounds like hearsay..kinda. Not to be anal retentive. But instead for sake of keeping with pure truthseeking.

Quote:

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synncromatically...

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.

I like that word.

MJ, while the analysis you give is interesting, it seems more reasonable that you would start a thread about your ideology. The manner in which you post such lengthy posts in the middle of another thread tends to disfavor discussion and tends to derail the extant discussion. I am rather convinced people want to discuss things. Its a challenge to believe that you aren't aware of this.

Clearly, and fair enough, you have a fervent belief or take on certain writings as to your interpretation however presenting your views in more digestible manner might make it easier to discuss unless of course you are disinterested in discussion and figure yourself to be right with everyone else being believed to be wrong. Quite a few have expressed that it seems that it seems that you re ever trying to tell everyone how stupid they might be in your eyes--and even regardless of the fact what you type or hold may be clearly flawed. I would hope that like others you are open to correction.

#1 Adam was not deceived but he disobeyed/rebelled--the text makes that clear.

There are many who have tried to explain that NT verse to mean that Adam and Eve were the parts of someone's consciousness rather than a real man or real living woman. They say the statement that Adam was not deceived but Eve was to mean: Adam and Eve were internal aspects of the same person so the Adam part was dragged along with the Eve part. Then, whose consciousness were they part of? They leave out the glaring fact that it says that Adam disobeyed unlike Eve he knew what he was doing and REBELLED. Eve was deceived. By time Adam got around to it, HE WAS NOT DECEIVED because he went against instruction.

Doesn't the very same Bible say Eve was taken out of Adam? Doesn't the Bible say Adam was given God's *breath*. Does it really take a special clique of super geniuses to tell us what the Bible makes obvious? Of course there would be some similarity and unity among Eve and Adam. There is similarity and unity in friends who spend lots of time together or in mother and child or in husband and wife or among members of the same club or in Father and son. That we can discern principles from observation of events doesn't make the events any less real. Spiritual beings in physical bodies fails to give us a big eraser to write everything off as nothing as if spiritual were synonymous with nothing.

Something being spiritual is probably more real than the physical realm rather than otherwise. The very same Bible makes it clear that the body is robes. The Chandogya Upanishads also allude to this. Thusly if the body is robes or clothing then what or who is being clothed upon?

So if Adam and Eve were each spiritual beings robed in bodies saying their bodies didn't do such and such, it was their conscience: hmmm how is that some kind of amazing revelation?

#2 Abraham as a purely imaginary symbolic figure is shown fallacious when looking at the history of Abraham among the people of India and among the Ethiopians.

The Indus river flooding caused migration and this was a real physical flooding and this is referred to in the Book of Genesis.

Quote:

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Aristobolus says that when he was sent upon a certain mission in India, he saw a country of more than a thousand cities, together with villages, that had been deserted because the Indus had abandoned its proper bed." -Strabo’s Geography

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Quote:

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And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods. And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac. Joshua 24:2-3

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There was literally a flood--not necessarily Noah's flood but of the Indus river. [On that note, there is much evidence linking Manu with Noah and the Minoans.]

The Chaldeans aka Kaul-Devas (ever notice how Strong's refers to Hebrew as Chaldean) rather than having been an ethnic group were a priestly caste (Brahmanic) (get it: community/kingdom of priests--sound familiar?). Might Abram at some point become a Brahmanic priest or have had something to do with the Brahmanic caste?

Quote:

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And Sarah was an hundred and seven and twenty years old: these were the years of the life of Sarah.

2 And Sarah died in Kirjatharba; the same is Hebron in the land of Canaan: and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah, and to weep for her.

3 And Abraham stood up from before his dead, and spake unto the sons of Heth, saying,

4 I am a stranger and a sojourner with you: give me a possession of a buryingplace with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.

5 And the children of Hethanswered Abraham, saying unto him,

6 Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.

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Heth pertains to the Hittites or the Hatti/Khetti which were of an aristocratic caste/class in Vedic times along with the Kassites. The Aryans on the other hand were classed as non-believers (i.e. Amelikites). Could it be that the story of Abraham has to do with the preservation for a time of pure doctrines even through to the birth of Jesus Christ--for a high purpose? With idolatry and corruption sweeping through lands then, a plan was engineered to see to it that pure doctrine would be preserved. Is that not clear throughout scripture?

#3 Physical and carnal are not the same.

Carnal is typically utilized in scripture as an adjective in the sense of perspective or bendt (of mind or focus): carnally minded. It is possible to do physical things or to act upon the physical realm without being carnal. Perhaps being carnal is when the robed upon soul, person, spirit gives too much credence or weight to the physical.

#4 Could it be that the kingdoms offered at Matthew 4:8 were local to Judea and were thusly visible from a local mountain or high place?

Quote:

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Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Commentary: In jest I offer the following: you know because there exists an extremely "high mountain" on this pear shaped earth of which one might "physically see" all the kingdoms of this earth. No, friends, I don't think so. This is a Spiritual ascension. And this is exactly where Abram is when the so called "King of Sodom" comes forth with his offer. And we know that the "devil" is Adversary and this should ring a bell in regard to the Carnal Mind which is Adversary against God. I wonder will our heroes succumb into Carnality or will they die on the cross to flesh.

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The error above is that the 'world' being referred to was (rather than the entire planet) the Judea-local expanse of land ('the earth' or 'the land') from which it was possible to see the entire land/earth from a high vantage point. The error is projecting back from today onto a time 2,000 years ago the popular meaning of 'world'. The limited notion of world shows up throughout the NT.

Quote:

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All the kingdoms of the world - It is not probable that anything more is intended here than the kingdoms of Palestine, or of the land of Canaan, and those in the immediate vicinity. Judea was divided into three parts, and those parts were called kingdoms; and the sons of Herod, who presided over them, were called kings. The term "world" is often used in this limited sense to denote a part or a large part of the world, particularly the land of Canaan. See Romans 4:13, where it means the land of Judah; also Luke 2:1, and the note on the place. -Barnes Notes on the Bible

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Could it be that Abraham was tested and souls are tested to this very day by real physical beings?

#5 If something comes from Mind or if all comes from Mind would it any surprise at all if that which comes from a facet of Mind could be associated with some facet of Mind?

It doesn't take much to see the errancy of taking the route of saying: well that came from the Water department so its wet and has to do with water so its really not real in and of itself its a allegory of the Water department. It has been noted by historians that architecture of a society tends to reflect the mindset of the society--but it seems that according to the theories of MJ architecture doesn't really exist--saying where something came from dissolves it into nothingness. It came from the mind so it reflects a faculty of the mind so it doesn't exist is like denying the capability of mind.

http://www.fitraq.net/lose_weight_an...r-in-glass.jpg
"It not really water, water doesn't exist its the flowing, passive or 'conforming' part of your conscious."

Attachment 2726
"You're not thirsty. Its just that your conscience is overflowing and wants to conform to the shape of your mouth and experience your inner bowels (virginity) to impregnate you with new life."

Attachment 2727

"There are no such things as rivers. You don't cross a river during rush hour. You're changing from a carnal state to a spiritual state and back again. Rivers didn't exist thousands of years ago or today so Abraham couldn't have crossed a physical river. Sure rivers had symbolism so they didn't exist. DRPA doesn't really need bridges but they build them to appease 'the masses' who cant walk on water. It doesn't really matter that crossing rivers or overcoming challenges can happen in everyday life: in two days it didn't really happen its symbolic."

I was hoping that many would see the connection between the King of Tyre as the Satan or Mammon or the Body Consciousness of which Jesus spoke. When the Adam received for the "fruit" he fell headlong into body consciousness and thusly his identity with the Serpent by and thru the five senses. Thusly he fell into the hell in which we find ourselves today. Thusly the King of Tyre, Satan, King of Sodom, Devil, Dragon etc, etc is connected right back to the Adam within which is the base or carnal mind.

It is as St. Paul said the Carnal Mind is enmity against God. It only seeks its own understanding, identity which is to say the King or Pharaoh or Mammon is the Carnal Lower Mind. And thusly the children [thoughts and desires] that are birthed are in no way a means to escape. For carnality cannot escape itself - thusly from ABOVE must one be born. For what is fleshly is fleshly and cannot ascend.

I apologize if I have assumed that many would make the connections. All of the physical interpretations ever made and that will ever be made will not in any way shape or form enter upon the Kingdom of God. For it is a requirement that one be born of water [physical birth] and of Spirit. And it is of the latter whereof I seek.

For many are born of water [in John] but few are born in Fire [in Jesus: Spirit]. Thusly they remain as the woman at the well - thirsty for water - not realizing the truth encrypted within the physical words. I mean who gets lost for 40 years? It is so ridiculous that I suppose even the ancients never supposed anyone would believe that more than a million folks wondered in a desert lost. Thank God for GPS - so that might never happen again.

But then like a lightening bolt from the East - it dawns on me - to be lost in the Wilderness of the Carnal Physical Mind - trapped in physicality under the lusts and desires of the Dragon/Carnal nature is exactly what the writer was discussing - 40 years in the desert of the mind. Whereof is born no good thing - for the Children born thereof are Desolate. And thusly no good truth comes from such a mind only more misery in the drudgery of the Wilderness of Babylon - whereof is wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony. From such a consciousness advances a ruler to rule them all. The Pharaoh of the Material World - the Serpent in the Garden - the Central Nervous System - symbolized by the one world leader which WILL MANIFEST as it must. Because the Ego only seeks its own. Thusly what is within manifests without. And no idea or thought or desire born out of the Whore which rides the Seven is clean. It is an abomination of desolation - and none of her children will advance mankind one step closer to the Garden.

Of which the said Garden is not locked or has some sort of shut door. Thusly this so called "King of Tyre" being in the Garden is right on. For it is the Mind. Thusly perfectly connecting to your post/thread - for Fallen [Adam] which is to say Mankind "for He called Their name Adam" - remains under the rule of Satan which is to say the Physical Mind or Body Consciousness. Nevertheless what is physical couches the Spirit. Thusly all of the Spiritual teaching lie dormant in the "Trojan Horse" styled PARABLES and ALLEGORIES awaiting the Seeker, the Asker, the Knocker at the Door who attempts to do exactly what Jesus did.

For Jesus said "Those who overcome, just as I overcame....."

I apologize yet again for making too many presumptions. I suppose I might just agree that there once lived a man named Adam. To what end does that help anyone at this time? There once lived a man who was my granddaddy. His flesh is dead and gone now but the lessons he instilled in my dad and I and further his genome continue in me. For Levi tithed to Melchizedek in the loins of Abraham.

How is it that Religion seeks of its own - such that those that are steeped in its path declare how they are persecuted just as Jesus said? When in fact Christianity is practiced almost with impunity by BILLIONS across this globe without persecution - and how do I know this is literal intellectual masturbation [spilling of the seed on the ground]? Because when I go to one of the 41,000 +/- churches and ask if they have the truth the pastor will say "Yes" excluding all others. So then I go to another denomination and ask the same question and lo and behold I get the same answer. Now how can that be? Except that they are BOTH confused - living in this Land of Confusion - just as Phil Collins sings - "and not enough Love to go around. Hey SUPERMAN where are you now? When everything has gone wrong somehow......"

The King of Tyre continues to rule....and will rule with the Whore of Confusion the Adam and Eve within every man and woman living under this Babylon - Body Consciousness - ruled by the Para-sympathetic and Sympathetic the winding snakes - and the Rod [Spine] which is to say IN THE EARTH.

Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Perhaps, maybe just perhaps - "the heathen" are the vain thoughts and imaginations which are birthed from the Whore riding the Serpent - of her Seven helpers. It seems Snow White indeed ate of an apple - but it was poisonous and she fell into a deep Carnal Sleep - off to the land of NOD.

But Aaron's Rod will one day bud - and that Candlestick [Spine] which has two natures will become Golden. And those seven natures of the Serpent will be subdued as one is baptised in Fire - MOSHE - Mem-Shin-Hey. But this remains as LOT camping with Abram for Moshe remains veiled to the physical/carnal mind trapped in Egypt.

Mem = Water
Shin = Fire
Hey = Ladder

This is the Central Pillar which one must ascend = Jacob's Ladder. Which is encoded by John's baptism by water and then Jesus' baptism by fire. Indeed the wonderful Wisdom of which the Scriptures are written are amazing to me for those who do not understand them have spread them all over the world - and thusly the truth remains veiled awaiting the Keys of Knowledge - to come forth and show what has always been there.

For the King of Tyre must be put to death - I die daily said St. Paul. And Jesus said "pick up your CROSS and follow me". Drink all the good water you want, eat the best food you can, treat your body to the best of the very best and I guarantee that it will go into the grave. Carnality does not and will not inherit.

Jesus made it very plain - God and Mammon cannot be served at the same time. Oh I know folks will say Mammon is money or such other non-sense. Which is merely a diversion from the real truth. For the Mind will always seek to satisfy the desires. And once satisfied the mind seems at ease but this too is an illusion for it is as if the satiation of the desire brought on the ease. But rather, it is a vicious treadmill of which the hamster never gets off. Thusly, it is written:

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Say that prince that is being discussed is the King of Tyre or Adam if you like. Therefore a choice remains - life or death. As it is everyday.

GREAT NEWS: Jesus said we might overcome as he overcame. That means dear reader that the door to the Garden is NOT locked. But do you have faith enough to trust Jesus to do as Jesus commands and not as the traditions of the Churches have commanded which has made void the Word. I trust Jesus CHRIST. Yehoshuah - Annointed Savior - who TAUGHT and SHOWED the Way. So that we might also walk in the same Way. Or, I suppose I might go buy a set of pom poms and sit as a silly cheerleader in the pews - singing and wasting my time. I think I will have the courage to follow Jesus.

Let the King of Tyre die - and Let inner anointing come forth.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Well gee whiz....let me read that again, did it just say "I need not that any man teach me?" Well gee whiz, when the brothers and sisters awaken, I guess Pastor is out of a job. Is it no wonder why the physical illusion is maintained?

Hopefully you will have patience with such a fool as I and please bear with me in my folly.



Shalom,
Michael Joseph

allodial,

I just re-read your post and I was shocked concerning the statement that I believe that others are "more stupid" or "not as smart"....That is in no way what I propound. I write out of Love. If I don't care for anyone I would just say to hell with my brethren. I have put my back to the plow now for years in constant writings to those who mostly hate me. And to that end I say "who cares".

I cannot tell you how many times a week I get a "thank you" email from those timid souls who are resonating with an inner truth. We are all so wonderfully made. We are each a universe within. Thusly, I find that those who would maintain that I am beating them down in degradation are really just manifesting an emotional response in regard to esteem. Which is to say the ideals being discussed beat against their Linus Blanket of security. Or the illusion thereof. And thus they "feel" threatened. Especially if those ideas threaten the Ego's position concerning Heaven and Hell. We all want that security of Heaven now don't we?

I would however maintain that we are all awesome - even those who do not belong to my tribe. Whatever that means. Each and everyone of us can overcome - and when one wakes up to the truth that is cleverly hidden in all Myth's and Scriptures all around the world one will see that Jesus SHOWED the Way. Jesus did not say - Worship Me. Thusly I am tasked to Walk in The Way.

One's intellect matters not one bit to me. For the King of the Carnal Mind is just that "intellect". Of which is of course gained by experience and interaction with nature by and thru the Nervous Systems. A man parched of water will not be helped one bit by a cool drink of water. For the next day he is parched again and the body of flesh which he occupies will one day go back to dust. Thusly the hamster continues - once more around the wheel at Gilgal.

Make it a great day,
Michael Joseph

Adverse religious beliefs fine [ i only requite one] Christ a teaching or lessons. In this spirit a Man can introduce us to a spiritual life, and that we return Christs message in stone to any man that thinks about his role the wisest s circles are NOT the largest circles Manage that wheel again and again as we fight our early battles to reform ourselves and get our life into order.

It’s all about stones and circles. Michael Joseph a Man his significance in any subscription too content affecting ones spiritual life. Allodial a title his applicable significance in any linguistic subscription too content ones spiritual life. No rockcandy gets spit out for its chewed out never get JUDE out or in when biblical cannon goes off spirit there be no topic Cranial Sunday just playin a part very best

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Originally Posted by xparte

Adverse religious beliefs fine [ i only requite one] Christ a teaching or lessons. In this spirit a Man can introduce us to a spiritual life, and that we return Christs message in stone to any man that thinks about his role the wisest s circles are NOT the largest circles Manage that wheel again and again as we fight our early battles to reform ourselves and get our life into order.

It’s all about stones and circles. Michael Joseph a Man his significance in any subscription too content affecting ones spiritual life. Allodial a title his applicable significance in any linguistic subscription too content ones spiritual life. No rockcandy gets spit out for its chewed out never get JUDE out or in when biblical cannon goes off spirit there be no topic Cranial Sunday just playin a part very best

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Actually either way you type it in, its a "User Name" the name or title given to a role (persona) in the legal context of forum and not the name of a man. Many clearly know that my name isn't "Allodial" and being a forum for discussion of things pertinent to law, legalities, customs or regulations the obvious need not be said. The allodial actually refers to the right to allodial title and its relation to lawful money in acquiring that lawful title and the relationship to true name. Its a term to encourage a richer and deeper study of law.

The forum first and foremost to do with law, particular laws of the United States and surrounds. The religious aspect crosses over at times, so there are sections for that. [Of course question begs: if we always have 900 different topics interjected into a discussion how can we ever get to the truth of ANYTHING?]

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Originally Posted by Michael Joseph

I just re-read your post and I was shocked concerning the statement that I believe that others are "more stupid" or "not as smart"....That is in no way what I propound. I write out of Love. If I don't care for anyone I would just say to hell with my brethren. I have put my back to the plow now for years in constant writings to those who mostly hate me. And to that end I say "who cares".

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For what its worth what was typed is: "Quite a few have expressed that it seems that you re ever trying to tell everyone how stupid they might be in your eyes--and even regardless of the fact what you type or hold may be clearly flawed. I would hope that like others you are open to correction."

Quite succinctly, AFAIK it wasn't actually a statement that you believe anything it was a revelation about how others have expressed their take on your approach or how they might feel. If that doesn't matter to you then fair enough, right?

In the other thread, someone recently expressed their "amazement" (?) that you gave such a direct and short answer for once, that's the kind of thing that is being referred to. When someone is enthused about a good thing, I'd be one to avoid interrupting that buzz. However, I believe the thing is people have trouble wading through heaps of unrelated material to get answers--they express that they have hard enough of a time as it is. Love I figure would have one being mindful of that.

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I cannot tell you how many times a week I get a "thank you" email from those timid souls who are resonating with an inner truth. We are all so wonderfully made. We are each a universe within. Thusly, I find that those who would maintain that I am beating them down in degradation are really just manifesting an emotional response in regard to esteem. Which is to say the ideals being discussed beat against their Linus Blanket of security. Or the illusion thereof. And thus they "feel" threatened. Especially if those ideas threaten the Ego's position concerning Heaven and Hell. We all want that security of Heaven now don't we?

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I can believe that you receive thanks from those that receive answers from you concerning the questions that they ask you. Overall, I prefer to believe others to be well-meaning which has not always proven to be the case. Interestingly enough, you speak of a "Linus Blanket of Security" which from the discussions you evidence an aversion to yours being questioned, discussed or touched. I ask questions but hardly get any answers but lots of "hey this is what I think about {unrelated topic} (except in this case its somewhat related).

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I would however maintain that we are all awesome - even those who do not belong to my tribe. Whatever that means. Each and everyone of us can overcome - and when one wakes up to the truth that is cleverly hidden in all Myth's and Scriptures all around the world one will see that Jesus SHOWED the Way. Jesus did not say - Worship Me. Thusly I am tasked to Walk in The Way.

One's intellect matters not one bit to me. For the King of the Carnal Mind is just that "intellect". Of which is of course gained by experience and interaction with nature by and thru the Nervous Systems. A man parched of water will not be helped one bit by a cool drink of water. For the next day he is parched again and the body of flesh which he occupies will one day go back to dust. Thusly the hamster continues - once more around the wheel at Gilgal.

---

But yet still you seem to avoid any direct discussion of the prospect that you might at least in part have a flawed approach with respect to topics or subject matter concerning which you seem to assert or to claim expertise? Are you inadvertently admitting to being a fountain that doesn't help the parched man one bit? Would that be a dust or water fountain?

While Jesus may have avoided encouraging worship (i.e. service) in the manner you speak, I am unaware of him encouraging misleading people with clearly errant or wildly speculative interpretations. Of course, your freedom is not being questioned at all. If you love others, do you encourage them to embrace what you know to be error? Or perhaps you believe there to be no such thing as error that everyone has their own "inner universe" to make up their own rules, maybe like a "do what thou wilt but harm no one" kind of approach?

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14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

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How can the same people who attack Paul as being a false apostle turn around and found entire 'mystical doctrines' on the writings of Paul? If Paul = false apostle then wouldn't 1 Timothy be out with the trash? Hmmmm.


http://img.pandawhale.com/post-38538...wtf-f-rjyQ.gif

Its like with watching a movie (whether its based on a true story or not): we all see that A happened then B happened then C happened but someone comes along and tries to tell us that B didn't happen and how much of an expert they are on the topic. Its not even necessarily about "religion" although the easy escape would be to point a finger and accuse me accusing me of being "dogmatic" lol. In the movie-land sense, if the girl in a scene was wearing a blue shirt and stabbed a zombie in the neck and someone comes along says it was a guy in a white gown and he gave the zombie a lollipop, its about honesty, perception, etc. We're just supposed to believe the guy that contradicts everything that makes sense.

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Naw, Eve! Dat's not wut God said..he said...

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Haven't we heard that before...somewhere? If you teach someone that 1 Timothy 2:14 means Adam and Eve were aspects of someone's conscious so that is how allegedly Adam was dragged along with Eve. So the question is asked: whose conscious where they part of? No answer. What are you sources so we can get people schooled and learned?

Anyways, context, it is clearly made plain that Adam rebelled or disobeyed. If Adam was not subjected to the Serpent's talk, how could he have been deceived? How is it that Adam and Eve have been part of the same conscious of some mysterious being but yet Adam didn't hear what the Serpent said but Eve did? Turning to Genesis it shows that He wasn't present when Eve was talking with the Serpent and that he ate what the woman/Eve gave to him though he was present when instruction was given from God. So yes, Adam was not deceived he rebelled or disobeyed.

So I ask then whose conscious was it they were a part of? No answer.

Furthermore, in the book of Ezekiel and Isaiah the 'trees' and tree symbology is described in more detail. There were trees in the Garden that were capable of envy. Clearly, its a spiritual book but not spiritual in the sense of willy-nilly nothing.

So, if you knew you were in error on even one point, would you go back to your student and tell him humbly that you may have made an error and explain how so, or would you ignore it? That's to do with character and affinity for truth and honesty--what's it to do with dogma?

Are deeper truths hiding in the texts? Sure. Knowing that women tend toward being more passive and subconscious and being more susceptible to suggestion or emotional manipulation that would tell is that an adversary would tend to appeal to emotional or subconscious influences or tactics (isn't that what is done in the media everyday?). You don't even need to join Adam and Eve into a single being to get the gist of that. The mass market psychologists set out to leverage women and children to gain control over men to this very day. But yet we see a famous example in an ancient text and we're just "supposed" to roll over and believe "Dat not happen. Dat not real. Dat just 'magination. Believe wut I say. Look into my eye."

So how does someone react to the truth when teaching what is clearly error without replying: "The trouble is that version with the girl stabbing the zombie in the neck wasn't the original version which has been lost but I know all about it though I can't produce a copy just believe what I says." How can a group even analyze even a novel if everyone goes around talking about a different version or starts standing in the place of the author (or in the place of God) saying "Nah that's not what he meant because he was my cousin's hairdresser for ten years and I know better." The authors of confusion might find truth to be excessively burdensome.

So the guys that stand there in agreement hey look we all saw the scene with the girl stabbing the zombie in the neck what are you smoking get the reply: "Get with the times. This is a new age. Don't be so dogmatic and square. Be hip."

There's this thing called "Brushing a camel aside with a straw".

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Originally Posted by xparte

Adverse religious beliefs fine [ i only requite one] Christ a teaching or lessons.

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whats truth got to do with dogma or religion
if the ship's clerk doctors the log
and if spin doctors decide what's a log and what isn't
and that truth is whatever it is to whoever is behind it
how you get to the bottom of what happened
or do you sink to the bottom
if dey keep blowin dat fog
and hidin' da Captain's Log

don't ask
too deep
they tell the sheep "i forget what was your question
so you should forget it too"
while thinkin' "how shall I distract you"
pointing tha finger
"look there's yet another naked woman-doctrine
on the face of a magazine
so get dizzy gettin' busy with her gaze
(woah woah, wait --
is that a man with a jar of Vaseline?)
no no thats just a ... dream
given in to the haze and let
the daze of days take over
from those eyes that fascinate
cos the Serpent wants a dinner date with you
isn't that wonderful news
that all along the Serpent's goal has been
to serve man ..to serve you..
(on a plate)
its true

allodial and allodial title
words that spell too much truth
about what was lost but now found
but the snake in the grass still
wants to serve you up the same New old raw deal
and so blows words of venom over the eyes and mind like fog with full hate
instead of Joseph Pilates...
its ... Pilate .. he's
the one who wondered how could there be
any rule without darkness great

Like St. Patrick drove the Serpents out of Ireland
We made these fields allodial
allodial persists to insist
on integrity in the word, book, journal or log or factum
and in fact and in action
dat's the kind o' thang that frustrates
the draco-vampire faction
like when allodial says:
"Behold, a vampire is runnin' a blood drive actin'
like anything but hungry for some adverse snackin'
for as long as it takes for the snake to get that dinner date
hopin' the victim won't find until a wee bit too late
cos layin' hogtied on the plate
served by the Serpent as the feast for a beast
maybe ain't the ideal place to discriminate"
who would disagree?
for, the serpent is wise about how he get his prize
even if has to bait the hook and dismiss the Book with Titanic lies"

by grace may truth shine and reveals the hidden passion (for your ass son)
let Wisdom break forth
cos her intervention invokes the right reaction
causing you to step up and step on
with full traction with your soles
leavin' the Serpent's head bruised
and feastin' on kicked up dust
rather than feasting upon your souls.

Regardless of MJ's interest or lack of interest in discussion, we can move forward. Let's get to the heart of this matter pertaining to 1 Timothy 2:14. This is taken from a work by Thomas Troward (a fascinating work indeed it is!):

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Attachment 2729
Attachment 2730
Attachment 2731

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Very interesting and alluring. That is the kind of thing MJ is referring. But apparently he isn't quite enthused about revealing the kinds of sources of information he might rely upon. The following points and questions get to the heart of the error:

1. A reading of Genesis makes it clear that Adam was not deceived since he was not present to hear the words of the Serpent. He is told that he listened to Eve rather than to God. In other words, disobedience or rebellion was his offense--he was in charge (given dominion) you see it was his dominion rather than Eve's --they don't want you to realize something about yourself. Other parts of the Bible make it clear that Adam did 'offend' or perpetrate an 'offense' of some kind. Eve was deceived but Adam was not--Adam could not have been deceived if he wasn't there for the Serpent's discourse.
2. If Adam was a mere body incapable of being deceived how could he have been put down as having made offense? Furthermore, why would God give a pile of chalk and carbon instruction?
3. 'dam' means blood 'a' means chief/head adam rightly points to 'chief of the blood' --blood is the life of the body.
4. In Genesis we see that man/adam/Adam/Man was made "male and female" --many think that means girls and boys but it can also mean that both 'girls' and 'boys' have passive (female) and active (male) natures though girls may have say, 80% passive and 20% active, while boys may have 80% active and 20% passive. The neuro-physiology of females shows that the nervous system of femmes is moreso dedicated to subconscious process than in men.
5. The Hindu scriptures also refer to a Adama and a Havyavathy and their literal flesh and blood descendants.
6. Troward seems to assert there having been only two trees in the Garden, other texts and Genesis itself might disagree and if we consider men as trees walking that idea of only two trees is overturned plain and simple.
7. Even if Genesis were 100% fiction like a movie, how can we trust anyone who can't even be honest about the text or who shows they can't even properly discern or read it (error is one thing but blindness and deception are something else).

The Bible gives insight as to trees.

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3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.

5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.

6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.

7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.

8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. Ezekiel 31:3-9

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Could be the possibility that the Garden of Eden and the Garden of the Lord or the Garden of God are the not the same?

Mark 8 hint.

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22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. Mark 8:22-24

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Men can bear fruit?

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19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

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What waters your tree?

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Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Matt. 7:16

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26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. Genesis 1:26-30

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4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:4-7

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"Man became a living soul"--this is done before the instruction regarding the tree of knowledge of good and evil is given. If Adam were a mere pile of chalk and carbon, why is he referred to as becoming a "living soul"?

***

Away from Genesis for a moment, its a spiritual book right?

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4 The LORD is high above all nations, and his glory above the heavens. 5 Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on high, 6 Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven, and in the earth! 7 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill; 8 That he may set him with princes, even with the princes of his people. Psalm 113:4-8

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8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them. 1 Samuel 2:8

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1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:1-3

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8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

...

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 2:8-9, 15, 21-24

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So clearly:

1. Adam is given instruction--if he were a pile of chalk why would he be given instruction?
2. Breath was given before the instruction--clearly Adam was not a mere pile of bones for he became a 'living soul' so how is it possible for someone to arrive at Eve being Adam's soul?
2. To knowledge the Chaldee or Hebrew word for 'man' is 'adam'.
3. much of creation is made before adam/Adam shows up --the prerogative then is to God to grant dominion over what He created. Adam might not be able to boast of having been involved in such creation.
4. there are multiple trees in the garden --not just two.
5. Clearly Eve being taken out of Adam would result in a 'vibe' of familiarity, a connection. In the case of a baby bourne by his mother for 9 months, there would be a resonance/vibe/connection between the mother and the baby. Since the baby has the father's 'essense' there would also be a vibe between the baby and the father. See all that one-ness, and unity that is to make the baby feel unity rather than separateness.
6. Are we supposed to believe that God breathed breath into Adam, made him a living soul then took his soul (allegedly "Eve") out? Wuuut?
Attachment 2732
7. If Eve was created out of Adam's rib then would she not also be chalk and carbon? Was Eve ever given breath from God?

I mean consider the perspective: the works of Thomas Troward are quite interesting, I could only wonder what exactly he was reading because in 10 Bible versions and multiple languages I couldn't come to the same conclusions he did based on the reading of the texts [because what he suggests is not there]. However, if I were to take scissors and cut out everything contrary to the point he is making then VOILA *presto chango ala magica* *BAM* "thats what the Bible says!" (sarcasm)

***

Order of events:

* Adam formed of the dust
* Adam given breath --becomes a living soul
* Adam put in the Garden of Eden to dress and keep it
* Adam given instruction concerning the tree of knowledge of good and evil (good and evil in the same tree?)
* Eve formed out of Adam

..........

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Originally Posted by allodial

..........

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i only requite one Christ make appropriate return for (a favor, service, or wrongdoing).My hat goes off to both in your service too Christ the favor i have remains with Christ any wrongdoing is being appropriately chewed when biblical cannon goes off spirt both Men offer significance in any subscription too content affecting ones spiritual life. The bible and its word has created ZOMeBodies of the word worship dont give me a knife as i cant die at my own hand I offer both somebodies universal approach with significance to the questions we ask ourself if Christ has significance we all do. interoperating names and titles for the truth how it identifies that truth is the rockcandy.who ever one with the truth W- O-N

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Originally Posted by xparte

i only requite one Christ make appropriate return for (a favor, service, or wrongdoing).My hat goes off to both in your service too Christ the favor i have remains with Christ any wrongdoing is being appropriately chewed when biblical cannon goes off spirt both Men offer significance in any subscription too content affecting ones spiritual life. The bible and its word has created ZOMeBodies of the word worship dont give me a knife as i cant die at my own hand I offer both somebodies universal approach with significance to the questions we ask ourself if Christ has significance we all do. interoperating names and titles for the truth how it identifies that truth is the rockcandy.who ever one with the truth W- O-N

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There's a difference between what someone does with something and what it is. Baby != bathwater.