Question regarding 42 USC § 408

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01-04-12, 08:13 PM
christopher george

Question regarding 42 USC § 408

from http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...8----000-.html

TITLE 42 > CHAPTER 7 > SUBCHAPTER II > § 408 PENALTIES

(a) In general
Whoever—
(8) discloses, uses, or compels the disclosure of the social security number of any person in violation of the laws of the United States;
shall be guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

What is meant by "in violation of the laws of the United States"? Does it mean if there is no requirement to provide a ssn in a particular statute then someone compelling you to give a ssn is in violation?

Sorry for the stupid question but the wording of that code has me a bit puzzled as to the intent.
01-05-12, 09:03 PM
shikamaru

"... in violation of the laws of the United States;"
"... in violation with regard to the laws belonging to the United States;"
"... in violation of federal laws;"
01-06-12, 07:53 AM
David Merrill

Quote:

Originally Posted by shikamaru

"... in violation of the laws of the United States;"
"... in violation with regard to the laws belonging to the United States;"
"... in violation of federal laws;"

Ingriguing! Can you please describe distinctions or similarities?
01-06-12, 10:59 PM
shikamaru

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Merrill

Ingriguing! Can you please describe distinctions or similarities?

Courtesy of "the Informer"....

When something is said to be of something else, that can mean belonging to, possession.

Of is a pretty loaded term... even in a law dictionary.

I imagine statutory interpretation of the term 'of' is even more loaded.
01-07-12, 12:31 AM
Hexify

Sounds like any law they find to charge you under. Pretty standard practice
01-07-12, 01:15 AM
shikamaru

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hexify

Sounds like any law they find to charge you under. Pretty standard practice

In this case, that section seems to be a penal statute.
I wonder how many convictions have been sustained on that passage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by christopher george

Does it mean if there is no requirement to provide a ssn in a particular statute then someone compelling you to give a ssn is in violation?

There is no requirement to provide your SSN upon demand or inquiry.
In counterpoint, the counter party can refuse you service, however, for failure to provide.

1. An SSN is not yours
2. SS is a benefit.

Compelling someone to give an SSN could be in violation.
The question becomes who will bring the charge to a grand jury?
01-07-12, 04:14 AM
Michael Joseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by shikamaru

"... in violation of the laws of the United States;"
"... in violation with regard to the laws belonging to the United States;"
"... in violation of federal laws;"

A trustee is IN Tenancy. A spouse to a woman is in husbandry. But a child is OF his father.

VIOLATION. An act done unlawfully and with force. In the English stat. of 25 E. III., st. 5, c. 2, it is declared to be high treason in any person who shall violate the king's companion; and it is equally high treason in her to suffer willingly such violation. This word has been construed under this statute to mean carnal knowledge. 3 Inst. 9; Bac. Ab, Treason, E.
01-07-12, 05:26 AM
christopher george

Quote:

Originally Posted by shikamaru

There is no requirement to provide your SSN upon demand or inquiry.
In counterpoint, the counter party can refuse you service, however, for failure to provide.

1. An SSN is not yours
2. SS is a benefit.

Compelling someone to give an SSN could be in violation.
The question becomes who will bring the charge to a grand jury?

i see, i think. for instance, if i want to open a bank account without providing a ssn to the bank, i cannot be forced to submit a ssn but i also cannot force them to open me an account...is that correct?

thanks to everyone for their insight!
01-07-12, 05:27 AM
Richard Earl

I did speak a utility provider here in my area and said I didn't need to provide a SSN, however, I will need to leave a deposit.
01-07-12, 06:34 PM
shikamaru

Quote:

Originally Posted by christopher george

i see, i think. for instance, if i want to open a bank account without providing a ssn to the bank, i cannot be forced to submit a ssn but i also cannot force them to open me an account...is that correct?

thanks to everyone for their insight!

Bingo! :)

If you stick with it though, I bet you could get that account sans an SSN.

I got what I wanted without providing an SSN with respect to medical services.

There is an exception .... government and government services. A government bureau may require an SSN to render you services.
01-07-12, 06:35 PM
shikamaru

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Earl

I did speak a utility provider here in my area and said I didn't need to provide a SSN, however, I will need to leave a deposit.

George Gordon mentioned the exact same thing in one of his broadcasts.

The SSN is for purposes of opening an account for credit.
01-07-12, 08:26 PM
Hexify

I think the word that stands out to me is "person". Remember that person means something not real, atleast that is my opinion. So filing a false income tax return with your ssn is a violation as I see it
01-07-12, 08:35 PM
shikamaru

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hexify

I think the word that stands out to me is "person". Remember that person means something not real, atleast that is my opinion. So filing a false income tax return with your ssn is a violation as I see it

Person has to do with the concept of legal personality.

This reading is really good too.
01-09-12, 02:46 AM
David Merrill

Quote:

Originally Posted by christopher george

from http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...8----000-.html

TITLE 42 > CHAPTER 7 > SUBCHAPTER II > § 408 PENALTIES

(a) In general
Whoever—
(8) discloses, uses, or compels the disclosure of the social security number of any person in violation of the laws of the United States;
shall be guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

What is meant by "in violation of the laws of the United States"? Does it mean if there is no requirement to provide a ssn in a particular statute then someone compelling you to give a ssn is in violation?

Sorry for the stupid question but the wording of that code has me a bit puzzled as to the intent.

I have encountered federal laws, Title 5 I believe, that allow for States to use the SSN for identifying numbers on things like fishing licenses.

Interestingly Colorado does not require a SSN for a driver license. If you have one you have to provide it accurately but you can submit a sworn statement that you don't have one if you don't. Also, on that fishing license thing, you are not compelled to give a SSN at all; the license provider (sporting goods store) will lose its franchise to sell the licenses if they get caught issuing fishing licenses without requiring the SSN.
02-05-13, 06:14 PM
Chex

Is the department of the treasury a nongovernmental corporate party?

Disclosure Statement: Is a RCFC 7.1 Disclosure Statement required?

The law is pretty clear:
Unless otherwise ordered, in all cases except habeas corpus cases counsel for private (non-governmental) parties shall identify in the disclosure statement required by Fed. R. Civ. P. 7.1 all persons, associations of persons, firms, partnerships or corporations (including parent corporations) which have a direct, pecuniary interest in the outcome of the case.

Rule 7.1. Disclosure Statement (a) Who Must File; Contents. A nongovernmental corporate party must file 2 copies of a disclosure statement that:
(1) identifies any parent corporation and any publicly held corporation owning 10% or more of its stock; or
(2) states that there is no such corporation.