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I have been studying with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture folks down the street.
Here is one take from The Other End of the World by Roger RUSK.
Interestingly Roger RUSK is brother of former Secretary of State Dean RUSK of Afroyim v. Rusk about the original Thirteenth Amendment.
I can't wait to hear your prediction. A lot of us think the rapture is bogus.
I am studying displacement hysteria. Layman term - imagination disorder. Another extreme I am studying is A Course in Miracles where Jesus CHRIST allegedly spoke directly to Helen SCHUCMAN for seven years.
Last class with ACIM:
I think you can understand why I find that appealing, if you have been reading about how Colorado is a War Chest more than a proper 1861 Territory etc.Quote:
I. The Direction of the CurriculumT-8.I.1. Knowledge is not the motivation for learning this course. 2 Peace is. 3 This is the prerequisite for knowledge only because those who are in conflict are not peaceful, and peace is the condition of knowledge because it is the condition of the Kingdom...
T-8.I.3. Every response to the ego is a call to war, and war does deprive you of peace. 2 Yet in this war there is no opponent. 3 This is the reinterpretation of reality that you must make to secure peace, and the only one you need ever make....
...A meaningful curriculum cannot be inconsistent. 5 If it is planned by two teachers, each believing in diametrically opposed ideas, it cannot be integrated. 6 If it is carried out by these two teachers simultaneously, each one merely interferes with the other. 7 This leads to fluctuation, but not to change. 8 The volatile have no direction. 9 They cannot choose one because they cannot relinquish the other, even if it does not exist. 10 Their conflicted curriculum teaches them that [all] directions exist, and gives them no rationale for choice.
T-8.I.6. The total senselessness of such a curriculum must be fully recognized before a real change in direction becomes possible. 2 You cannot learn simultaneously from two teachers who are in total disagreement about everything. 3 Their joint curriculum presents an impossible learning task. 4 They are teaching you entirely different things in entirely different ways, which might be possible except that both are teaching you about yourself. 5 Your reality is unaffected by both, but if you listen to both, your mind will be split about what your reality is.
Fear of the Will of God is one of the strangest beliefs the human mind has ever made. 2 It could not possibly have occurred unless the mind were already profoundly split, making it possible for it to be afraid of what it really is. 3 Reality cannot "threaten" anything except illusions, since reality can only uphold truth...
But that book is Subproject 130 of CIA's MK-ULTRA so I cannot rely on it to change my mind. I will not crack it open except in class where I have the Holy Spirit of God from the classmates to help me with my individual interpretation. I guard my belief set.
Likewise on the other side of things are the Rosicrucians and their admonition that the Book of Revelation is within and without - like Jesus says about the kingdom of heaven. [I watched the series premiere of Zero Hour last night and am interested.]
The pre-tribulation rapture folks though, I am studying out of an appreciation that we, to a great extent create reality. So they wait and are called Futurists. ACIM teaches us that the purpose of time is to Remember that we are much more unified with God than the priests would like for us to acknowledge anyway. Read that introductory RC paragraph for that note. So my objective was to evaluate how much flack from their Armageddon I might expect to live with in my own life - my little corner on "reality".
I have come to the conclusion, for now, that Futurism is self defeating. They cannot be praying in any kind of disaster that I have to live with in my reality because Futurism has them stuck waiting for God to do things.
I think if you read the chapter from The Other End of the World I linked in the opening post that you would have already gathered I am not pro-pre-trib Rapture. Interestingly I carry a masonic Bible to class and it seems to freak them all out a bit. I am not a Mason - I think I got the Mason Bible at a yard sale...
Regards,
David Merrill.
The futurist rapture teaching has never made any sense to me; the historicist interpretation is the only one which I find supported by my own reading of the scriptures.
I believe that the book The Great Controversy by Ellen G. White correctly explains how Bible prophecy will work out in our time. I don't mean to say that this book explains absolutely everything that will ever happen; but I believe that it contains a decent outline of some very important events which have and will happen in our lifetime.
My two cents - my study does not recognize any Rapture; HOWEVER, I do maintain the possibility of TRANSFIGURATION. However please do not ask me to discuss Transfiguration in this forum.
Shalom,
MJ
Thank you for the lead Treefarmer. The class I am attending is a small group of six including the teacher, and all elderly and very faithful people. It is an apocalyptic mystery cult, as their views, while they enjoy projecting do not at all reflect the general sentiment of the megachurch wherein we meet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treefarmer
I am an historicist should I pigeonhole myself at this moment. I recognize that prophecies have initial, ongoing and final fulfilments. This allows me the best wiggleroom for rationalizing if you will...
Thank you for the link Michael Joseph! The thread asks everybody to please discuss their take on Pre-Tribulation Rapture. That you decline is respected. I certainly expect it could be a hot-button and opened the thread for some spice.
Having discovered a real apocalyptic mystery cult just down the street I find myself awaiting the next class with no little excitement!
Regards,
David Merrill.
Something to consider:
Luke 17:26-37 is often cited in support of a pre-tribulation rapture. The idea is that the ones that are "taken", are taken from the earth and into heaven, and the ones that are "left" are "left behind" on earth to endure tribulation.
But the biblical text gives no evidence to support this view, IMO.
On the contrary, I believe that Yahushua said the opposite, as evidenced by His answer to the question of the disciples: "where, Lord?".
The question "where, Lord?" must refer to "where are they taken", because Yahushua had already explained where the "left" ones were going to be left:
in the bed, at the grinding, and in the field.
But He did not initially say where the "taken" ones would be taken to.
In answer to the question of "where" He said:
"Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."
In other words, they are being taken to be killed, just "as it was in the days of Noe".
Noah, who was perfect in his generations, and his family were left in the earth, protected from the destruction by the cover of the ark, while the other inhabitants of the earth were taken away into death.
Yahushua then tells a parable (Luke 18) to illustrate His point further, and He concludes in verse 7:
"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?".
Verse 8 affirms that He is indeed speaking of His second coming in this parable.
I believe He is saying that the "elect" who will be avenged of God are left alive on earth at that time while their adversaries are taken away, just like the widow's adversary in the parable, and the wicked ante-deluvians in the time of Noah.
My thought is more that mathematics can lead us into prophecy. Like Daniel, who calculated the years of Jeremiah's Letter. That is a clue - study math.
Therefore what I described above as initial, ongoing and final fulfilments of prophecy are more understanding the laws of nature and properties of mind. God, whatever is very very consistent. I doubt seriously that He is going to suddenly try something new and unprecedented. The parenthetical gap of 2000 years before "cleaning up" makes no sense unless you accept God playing with the Universe.
Mainly my confirmation would be that Jesus lived in a time of harsh Roman occupation in Israel. The idea and appeal of the beauty of the kingdom of David had a wonderful appeal and any promise of such a king held an instant popularity. So Jesus accepting the crown of Archelaus (from John the Baptist) was an instant success. The Roman occupation was intolerable and people jumped on any better alternative.
I changed my mind, I will touch on Transfiguration. I believe many mistake Transfiguration for Rapture. In my opinion DARBY is incorrect regarding the so called Rapture; however I do see a real difference between the Israel of Elohim and the Churches. Few will escape Israel - yet some will. Enoch was Transfigured was he Raptured? How about Moses? I mean Jude reports that Satan was searching for Moses' bones in the Earth without success. How about Elijah? Yehoshuah certainly Transfigured but, then in a show of Voluntary bowing the knee to El Elyon, He went on to perform the Will of Elohim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Joseph
So then I see a connection with Jacob, the Contender, who became Israel, the Prince that prevailed with the Elohim, and Transfiguration. So then shall we examine Jacob's walk? TODAY IS THE DAY. There is no tomorrow if you desire to be happy and find peace!
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She is a TREE OF LIFE - Wisdom. Isaiah 11:2, Proverbs 8:22-23 and 30. Notice She is DAILY the delight of Yehovah Elohim - She BALANCED Him. She is His DELIGHT.
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the reverence of the LORD;
Pro 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Pro 8:13 The reverence of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pro 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
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Pro 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
Notice Jacob's journey before he received a new name.
1. Beersheba
2. Bethel
3. Padan Aram
4. Nahanaim
5. Peniel
6. Succoth
7. Bethel
Notice that he laid his head on Two Rocks and he anointed one at Gen 28 where he said this is the House of Yehovah Elohim. But then later we see at Genesis 35 he anoints the other rock wherein he [Jacob] received the blessing in the name of Elohim El Shaddai. Now then notice these TWO rocks are anointed with oil - Holy Spirit. Now then shall these TWO rocks become ONE?
Gen 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
Gen 28:18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
Gen 28:19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.
Now in Gen 35 he is returning to Bethel:
Gen 35:1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am Elohim El Shaddai: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
Gen 35:14 And Jacob set up a pillar in the place where he talked with him, even a pillar of stone: and he poured a drink offering thereon, and he poured oil thereon.
Gen 35:15 And Jacob called the name of the place where Elohim spake with him, Bethel.
So we see TWO Rocks whereupon were anointed with Oil.
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We see in Moses TWO tablets. These TWO must become ONE wherein said one shall receive a new White Stone and on it is a name no man knoweth. Jacob received his white stone. He ascended seven levels up the Ladder. He was able to make the Giant Step at Succoth [Tabernacles] by understanding the smaller steps that must be put into place after Pentecost which are Mahanaim [Feast of Trumpets] and Peniel [Day of At-one-ment]. With these smaller steps he was able to make the Great Step.
Each of the Seven places that Jacob traveled represent symbolically a woman. This is a struggle with the soul. The Spirit and the Soul within the Body must be re-united. For in the Flesh fallen nature Adam was to rule over Eve, but in the Elohim Nature - Adam and Eve, which is the Spirit and Soul are United and Equal. So then we see BALANCE.
For She was removed from Eth-Ha-Aw-Dawm. She is the Soul and He is the Spirit. This is symbolically what is going on within. But as within so without. These seven women must be prepared for a marriage supper. For the Spirit is of God. And for this cause He was not ashamed to call them brethren for we are all of ONE - El Elyon.
Continuing...
Isa 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
Thy Land is the flesh body; We see the BREACH made in Adam [Eth-ha-aw-dawm]. And we see that Adam did not submit to this breach but it was made nevertheless for a purpose!
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
Thy Land is a Temple - and the Marriage is between the Soul and the Spirit.
The Seven [soulish] women shall be married to one Man - The Spirit of God placed within this Flesh Body. But first she must be Prepared.
Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Of course the two Rocks that Jacob anointed WITH OIL [Spirit] is the Left Cheribum and the Right Cheribum = Left and Right Brain.
WHEREIN WE MUST FIND BALANCE. For if one is so focused on the Law, then one is Unbalanced. Notice that El Shaddai came to Abraham [with the Promise] but Yehovah came to Moses with the Law. So we see the Promise was 400 + years BEFORE the Law.
Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
So we see that to keep the Law is Good but the Law must be Balanced with Mercy in Love. So then we see a Middle Path wherein walk a "KINGDOM of PRIESTS" - this is the Order of Melchizedok. This cannot be of Levi because the Sceptor was not in Levi's hand it was in Judah. But here we see the Scepter and the Priest in the hand of One - a Melchiedok Priest.
Now then can we return to Proverbs 11:1 with new insight? Now that is not to say that there are other Outworkings of this Scripture but there are Levels of Understanding. Seven I believe. Just look at the Menorah there are SEVEN lamps.
Pro 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
I have heard the Idiom - the Glory of the Man is his Woman. She is a CROWN upon his head and daily His Delight!
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Continued on Next Post
I just barely touch on this subject and I mean just barely. The Passover moment is Redemption of the Spirit. The Pentecost experience is the PARTIAL redemption of the Soul for the Spirit is granted an EARNEST gift IN-PART. But we see at Tabernacles the FULL Redemption of the Spirit, Soul and Body. This is Transfiguration but before Transfiguration must come Transformation of the Mind.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
For Jacob struggled mightily with his mind, as did Job, as did Yehoshuah in the Garden. My Redemption has NOTHING to do with money!
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
Honor they Father [Yehovah Elohim] and they Mother [El Shaddai Elohim]. Notice SHE takes the family name? The SEVEN women also desire to take the name of ONE man. For we are both male and female within this clay Temple.
For Paul understood - I wish to present you as chaste virgins [pure maidens] to the husbandman [Christ].
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
This is in type what needs to happen within as we seek to Re-Unite the Soul and the Spirit within the Temple. For which of the Stones in the temple thought they were fully in-Christ-ed when they were hewn below? But seeking not to limit God we see each stone fitted precisely forming the Temple of the living Elohim.
Yehoshuah tore the veil. Most will dismiss these writings in their decision to remain in the Outer Court. Shall we press on? For there were three decks in the ark and a window in the third deck.
Gen 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
One River - The Spirit of the Lord = God is Spirit
Four heads - Beta, Alpha, Theta, Delta
And daily SHE was His delight! Are not thoughts CONCEIVED? She Wisdom is the Heavenly Woman - Choose Her - She is a Tree of Life. And Choose Him - For He is a Tree of Life. This is the Elohim - United.
For we find a Tree of Life on BOTH sides of the River that flows from under the Throne of EL ELYON [THE MOST HIGH GOD]. But we see that the rivers of living water flow from the South side of the Alter. Orienting my two eyes as the East Gate, the South side is the Right side.
What does the Creature [Me and You] desire - the manifestation of the Sons of Elohim = Transfiguration.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Comment = Adam received surgery - the curve was removed. Prior to that point the Serpent had no place to gain a toe hold. One will ask WHY? Reply: Would you like your children to act in Robot fashion or would you desire true love to manifest in Character Development? For we see in First Age that the "Ben Ha Elohim" judged unrighteously.
Psa 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Psa 82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psa 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
The HOPE spoken of in Rom 8:20 is that the sons of the Most High God [El Elyon] will develop their Character and ascend UP the seven Rungs and stand upon the Firey Sea of Glass - fact to face - in the presence of El Elyon. In Righteousness.
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Comment: Salvation comes freely in Grace upon one placing their Trust in Yehoshuah. After that we must begin our Journey as did Jacob! Notice there was a Prince BEFORE that fell in a previous Age - we were in different form then. See now the decision IN HOPE - that a 2nd Flesh Age would be issued forth - whereby the elohim's could develop their Character and get their acts together.
Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Comment: For Israel was the PRINCE that Prevailed with the Elohim. He found favor with God and with Man.
TODAY IS THE DAY - tomorrow does not exist!
I love you in Christ,
MJ
Thank you Michael Joseph;
That is a delightful excursion into redemption going far beyond paychecks.