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Thread: Whose Troops Are They?

  1. #1

    Whose Troops Are They?

    Most everyone knows that when flow the USA flag's canton is to left of the stripes. The flag is to have specific colors as well.

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    The above is of the Apollo Mission crew (January 17, 1967).

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    The above is of Neil Armstrong (July 1, 1969).

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    "Maj. Gen. Robert Kasulke’s visit to Caserma Ederle: Army Reserve medical support March 2010." Photo by U.S. Army Africa."
    Notice something 'different'? That is not the USA flag.

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    "Spc. Eddie L. Williams, a computer detection repairer at Fort Belvoir, Va., models the new MultiCam Army Combat Uniform, which will be issued to Soldiers deploying to Afghanistan beginning in July." Photo by U.S. Army. From the Flickr Creative Commons.
    Notice anything different?

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    If it were a matter of color for camouflage purposes, then why is the canton in the wrong place? Whose flag is that? Whose troops are they, really? Sure, they might be U.S. Army soldiers but deployed under what jurisdiction?
    Last edited by allodial; 05-04-14 at 01:05 AM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  2. #2
    Just guessing but that may be for Distress. Those are Velcro patches and if you flip them so the field of stars is properly on the left, the flag is upside down which is the symbol for Distress?

  3. #3
    Flag of distress? That came to mind. However, we're talking about military dress controlled by very meticulous formalities and super-professionals at heraldry who aren't likely to make mistakes when it comes to sending a message. And "distress" could be the message or part of it.

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    The above is to knowledge of the Canadian Army uniform between 1980 and 1995.

    Similarly, the uniform of the Governor General of Canada as Commander In Chief shows a flag that has similarities to a Canadian flag except the colors are wrong. Is it because he can't wear red for 'camo' purposes?

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    Now returning to the matter of the U.S. Army, look at the below image from the cover of an Osprey book on the topic.

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    Indeed, "distress flag" came to mind. But considered in a larger context, one of the first things that came to mind is that toying with a flag "just enough" and in "just the right way" would be a clever way to avoid committing perfidy.

    Article 37 [ Link ] -- Prohibition of perfidy

    1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy:

    (a) the feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;

    (b) the feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;

    (c) the feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and

    (d) the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.

    2. Ruses of war are not prohibited. Such ruses are acts which are intended to mislead an adversary or to induce him to act recklessly but which infringe no rule of international law applicable in armed conflict and which are not perfidious because they do not invite the confidence of an adversary with respect to protection under that law. The following are examples of such ruses: the use of camouflage, decoys, mock operations and misinformation. [Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), 8 June 1977.]
    Rule 62. Improper use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of the adversary is prohibited.
    Rule 63. Use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of neutral or other States not party to the conflict is prohibited.
    Perhaps twiddling with the flag allows for a kind of 'asset tracking' without the deployed 'asset' actually being under the jurisdiction of its origin?

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    CLEVELAND POLICE Department will be changing their uniform patches, removing the U.S. flag and replacing it with a ribbon pin. The flag patch will be replaced with CPD’s emblem. (More)
    Read more: Cleveland Daily Banner - CPD patch to replace U S flag on uniforms
    Related: Carlisle police questioned over flag patch (apparently, its contagious)
    Last edited by allodial; 05-04-14 at 09:47 AM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  4. #4
    Is there somebody we could ask? Maybe a JAG or Provost Marshal?
    Last edited by David Merrill; 05-04-14 at 12:44 PM.

  5. #5
    Anthony Joseph
    Guest
    If the flag appeared 'backwards' on the left shoulder as well, then there may be some question as to what the deal is. However, when worn on the left side, the flag appears 'normal' since the supposed forward motion of the soldier acting as the 'flagstaff' would make the flag flutter backward.

    Observing a forward moving flag attached to a pole from the right side would make the flag appear 'backwards'. Observing from the left, the flag appears 'normal'.

    This is supposedly the notion that 'U.S. soldiers' should never be "appearing to retreat"; if the flag was placed "normally" on the right shoulder, it would "appear" the soldier is retreating.

    This is one explanation but here is a soldier who isn't buying it.

    http://www.megafortress.com/newsletter/news66.htm

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    Is there somebody we could ask? Maybe a JAG or Provost Marshal?
    That would be a good start. Perhaps someone at the North American Vexillological Association might be of assistance too.

    The Department of the Army's policy is Army Regulation 670-1, revised 5 September 2003, (found on http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/FAQ: WEAR OF THE FLAG PATCH BY ARMY PERSONNEL. HQDA policy has been changed to authorize all soldiers throughout the force permanent wear of the full-color U.S. Flag cloth replica (approximately 2"x3") on utility uniforms. The patch is worn on BDUs, Desert BDUs, the Maternity BDU, the Cold Weather Coat (Field Jacket), Aircrew Battle Dress Uniform, and the Combat Vehicle Crewman Uniform and Jacket (Cold Weather). DA policy states that the patch will be sewn 1/2 inch below the right shoulder seam of the utility uniform. When the shoulder sleeve insignia-former wartime service (SSI-FWTS) is worn on the right shoulder of the utility uniform, the U.S. Flag insignia is placed 1/8 inch below the SSI-FWTS. The cloth replica is worn so that the star field faces forward or to the flag's own right. When worn on the right sleeve, it is considered proper to reverse the design so that the union is at the observer's right to suggest that the flag is flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward.
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    From a heraldric perspective: #1 its a 'canton' not a "star field; #2 moving the canton means its a totally different flag; #3 on shoulders the hoist always to the left of the direction being faced; #4 the new non-USA flag with the canton to the top right places the "source of authority" beneath 7 stripes and above 6--it places the stars (the source of authority of the flag) in a subordinate position to 7 stripes.; #5 different colors makes it a totally different flag?

    Perhaps its a Metro District flag?



    Are the Cleveland police 'accidentally' revealing themselves to be part of the US Army?

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    Picture of President George W. Bush holding up the American flag at the Olympics {2008}, except he is got it backwards.A very large number of pictures of happy occasions for various countries around the world captured by members of families in moments of happiness and laughter with the participation of all members of the family. (Presidential term: January 20, 2001 – January 20, 2009--that would include 2003)
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    P.S. Shoulder patches don't flutter in the wind and the hoist would be presumed to be to the left. Flags are read left to right like any shoulder patch. To move the canton is to alter the flag and to change the source of authority. Also, that which flies on the right shoulder is regarded to be superior to that which to the left.
    Last edited by allodial; 05-04-14 at 04:13 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  7. #7
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    Air Force home soccer jersey. (If viewed to be at hoist, the wind is behind you and with you.)

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    (If viewed to be at hoist, the wind is in front of you and against you.)

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    Crew chief for a Black Hawk helicopter from A Company, 5th Battalion, 101st Aviation Regiment (2).jpg
    According to the Flag Code, a single Flag displayed against a wall or flat surface (in this case a soldiers sleeve) should have the Union (the field of blue and stars) in the upper left.
    Related: flagdetective.com; Fix Our Flag (fixourflag.org); North American Vexillological Association ; Vexillology (Wikipedia entry)
    Last edited by allodial; 05-04-14 at 04:12 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  8. #8
    Thanks for that link Anthony Joseph!

    I believe that the pilot Dale BROWN's interpretation may not be thought through.


    The very notion that we altered our flag because someone--whether it is an officer, politician, bureaucrat, or even Congress--thought the U.S. soldier should never be seen as "retreating" is a rather frightening notion to me. It is astounding to me that someone actually had the temerity to think that he could change the symbol of our country just to soothe his own sensibilities. It's a scary notion.

    Presuming that the combat uniforms are Velcro-on Flags if the soldier were to retreat he could satisfy the Distress theory and the Wind/Forward Motion theory too. Upon the Retreat Order he could quickly flip the patches over - upside down and relay both messages to soldiers attacking forward behind him so as not to be accused of desertion and cowardice.

    However that would be written into the Code, don't you think?

    I cannot imagine a soldier is expected to retreat from the battle walking backwards! But it makes me wonder if Dale has considered combing through the Code for conduct during a retreat order?
    Last edited by David Merrill; 05-04-14 at 04:07 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    Presuming that the combat uniforms are Velcro-on Flags if the soldier were to retreat he could satisfy the Distress theory and the Wind/Forward Motion theory too. Upon the Retreat Order he could quickly flip the patches over - upside down and relay both messages to soldiers attacking forward behind him so as not to be accused of desertion and cowardice.

    However that would be written into the Code, don't you think?

    I cannot imagine a soldier is expected to retreat from the battle walking backwards! But it makes me wonder if Dale has considered combing through the Code for conduct during a retreat order?
    The BDU's are velcro "all around"--even the "US ARMY" and the name tag. The rucksacks are the same. All input is valuable. It seems that the earliest toyings with the flag in suh manner (on aircraft and space vehicles) came under the Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon administrations--hmm interestingly around the time major changes were made to U.S. currency and after the LBJ coup de tat.

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    However, what of these? (the following)





    And why are police and firemen following an alleged directive to U.S. Army soldiers? Are the 'gold fringers' right?

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    Gold fringe flag is admiralty except indoors. Indoors the gold-fringed flag only flies in military courts and therein when dealing with administrative matters are summary court martial proceedings against civilians.
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    Last edited by allodial; 05-05-14 at 03:04 AM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  10. #10
    Anthony Joseph
    Guest
    Unless a man brings his own court to the courthouse, he is in someone else's court. The jurisdiction is dictated by the subject matter at hand.

    Either way, on this occupied land you are a foreign state with the opportunity for safe harbor, indemnification and immunity from the commercial theater of war. One must demonstrate that one is a peaceful inhabitant rather than a belligerent combatant.
    Last edited by Anthony Joseph; 05-05-14 at 10:16 PM.

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