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Thread: Where to stamp a FRN

  1. #1

    Where to stamp a FRN

    Where does one place one's redemption stamp on a FRN? I've seen front and back placement. Ultimately, I do not think location is that important, only showing the fact that redemption has occurred.

    Personally, I place mine on the front and over the legal tender language for two reasons.
    1. Because of this link from the SF fed bank. Scroll to bottom and under did you know to read the second bullet:
    More than half of a dollar bill is considered legal tender, and only the front of a dollar bill is valuable. If you could separate the front of a bill from the back, only the front half would be considered "money."
    That is why I stamp the front of each FRN.

    2. I choose to place it over the legal tender language because in my mind I am changing the nature of the FRN and therefore potentially altering the validity of the legal tender language.

    Click on FRN to see enlargement or click on attachment 127 to download pic.

    Delawarejones

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    Name:  StampFRN.jpg
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    Last edited by Delawarejones; 03-17-11 at 02:24 PM.

  2. #2
    Very good! I had not thought that through. I stamp the backsides so as not to put off cashiers. I am thinking that you might be charged with felony destruction of money/tender if you get to pushy about it. The Code reads that if you render the currency to have no value, then you are guilty of the violation. So that might simply mean you have made the bills unacceptable to a cashier somewhere.

    I suggest you use water-based red ink. If you get a complaint then wash the notice out with soap.

    The redemption, you understand is worthless on the bill itself. By the time you are holding cash, you have already made your demand; or not. That is important to understand. I am only stamping the bill for edification purposes.

    However, it is indicated that when ordering transcripts and paying for court cases, the stamp on the bills may be quite effective to own the material instead of the state.


    Regards,

    David Merrill.

  3. #3
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    Good explanation, I like it. May I suggest another thing though, is to put a line through the serial number.

    I had discussion with a friend who made demand for lawful money at the bank, after speaking with the bank manager the bank employee recorded the serial numbers to take them out of the system so the intent could really be for lawful money [ Public Money } and also that it could not be reissued, reducing the debt liability for everyone.

    5. Deposit to Reduce Liability for Outstanding Notes
    Any Federal Reserve bank may at any time reduce its liability for outstanding Federal Reserve notes by depositing with the Federal Reserve agent its Federal Reserve notes, gold certificates, Special Drawing Right certificates, or lawful money of the United States. Federal Reserve notes [12 USC 415. As reenacted by act of June 21, 1917 (40 Stat. 237); and as amended by acts of Jan. 30, 1934 (48 Stat. 339); June 30, 1961 (75 Stat. 147); March 18, 1968 (82 Stat. 50); and June 19, 1968 (82 Stat. 189). The act of June 30, 1961, is the Old Series Currency Adjustment Act.]
    Source: http://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/section16.htm

    4. If a taxpayer provides evidence that a remittance has been stolen and/or altered.

    A. Obtain a written statement from the taxpayer that the original negotiable instrument was made payable to the United States Treasury (or Internal Revenue Service (IRS)) and sent to IRS.
    Source: http://www.irs.gov/irm/part5/irm_05-001-002.html

    Also I had a discussion with an IMF employee about the contract forms within their system, they said it is illegal to completely remove words from the form and place new ones, this is like counterfeit securities, BUT it is ok to renegotiate the terms in a sense of putting a line through the words and write above it.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    Very good! I had not thought that through. I stamp the backsides so as not to put off cashiers. I am thinking that you might be charged with felony destruction of money/tender if you get to pushy about it. The Code reads that if you render the currency to have no value, then you are guilty of the violation. So that might simply mean you have made the bills unacceptable to a cashier somewhere.
    I have had no complaints. No one questions them. A handful of cashiers will look at it, scrunch their face and usually put them in the cash drawer. One however, did pull out a marker to check the validity of the currency, i.e. 50FRN or 100FRN (this was a 20FRN). It was real, so she put in her drawer. Even the courts have taken them without question.


    EDITED TO ADD: I am not worried about defacing/destruction of the FRN. I am doing neither. A FRN has value as long as there is 50% or greater of the note (it's not a note) remaining. Destruction is not occurring. Defacing? Nope, as the FRN has been redeemed, I am acting in "good faith," letting those who can comprehend its meaning to have the ability to make a choice regarding acceptance of public money. Good faith is what the law requires. If there is a problem, then the law can show me the proper way.

    To date, no one has refused them. If they did, I would need them to state in writing that my FRNs were refused, signed and dated, and if possible company policy guideline and/or code. With that, I can make a legal determination of my own regarding my next course of action.
    Delawarejones
    Last edited by Delawarejones; 03-17-11 at 04:53 PM.
    Despite the crapehangers, romanticists and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. Robert Heinlein

    The law assists the wakeful, not the sleeping. Legal Maxim

    Nothing is so natural as to dissolve anything in the way in which it was bound together; therefore the obligations of words is taken away by words; the obligation of mere consent is dissolved by contrary consent. Legal Maxim

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by motla68 View Post
    Good explanation, I like it. May I suggest another thing though, is to put a line through the serial number.

    I had discussion with a friend who made demand for lawful money at the bank, after speaking with the bank manager the bank employee recorded the serial numbers to take them out of the system so the intent could really be for lawful money [ Public Money } and also that it could not be reissued, reducing the debt liability for everyone.

    Also I had a discussion with an IMF employee about the contract forms within their system, they said it is illegal to completely remove words from the form and place new ones, this is like counterfeit securities, BUT it is ok to renegotiate the terms in a sense of putting a line through the words and write above it.
    Good idea. After thinking about though, I do not think I would cross out the serial number. Here is why: if the FRN gets NOTICED by a fed bank employee, I want them to strike out the serial number or in whatever fashion they extinguish the notes. By striking through the serial number, I could see a determination made stating since the number is unrecognizable (eventhough it may not be), there is NO need to treat it as redeemed and to okay a reissue. I want the FRN to be redeemed on their books without giving them a reason to deny the redemption.

    I am merely hypothesizing and assuming a fed employee will take ACTUAL NOTICE of the FACT the FRN has been redeemed.

    Delawarejones
    Despite the crapehangers, romanticists and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. Robert Heinlein

    The law assists the wakeful, not the sleeping. Legal Maxim

    Nothing is so natural as to dissolve anything in the way in which it was bound together; therefore the obligations of words is taken away by words; the obligation of mere consent is dissolved by contrary consent. Legal Maxim

  6. #6
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    "Because of this link from the SF fed bank. Scroll to bottom and under did you know to read the second bullet:
    More than half of a dollar bill is considered legal tender, and only the front of a dollar bill is valuable. If you could separate the front of a bill from the back, only the front half would be considered "money."

    You are missing one important nuance of the above statement:

    More than half of a dollar bill is considered legal tender, and only the front of a dollar bill is valuable.

    Those are 2 separate statements.

    1."More than half of a dollar bill is considered legal tender".

    2. "Only the front of a dollar bill is considered valuable."

    If you will look more closely at any bill larger than the 1, you will find there are 2 notes, separated by a curved line and/or artistic curved lines, but there is always a solid line between the left side and the right side of the bill.

    The left side NOTE (50%) is the FRN, all the lettering and the seal and the "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER...."

    There is nothing on FRN side of the note that crosses the line to the NOTE on the right side, which is clearly titled "THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" has the Treasury seal and nothing about it being legal tender. The serial numbers match, but even they are separate registration numbers, one for the FED books, the other for the Treasury.

    Notice the above quote is for "A" dollar bill. That definition does not speak for anything but the 1 dollar bill. Certainly nobody would agree "A DOLLAR BILL" is the same thing, legally or lawfully as "A 5 (five) DOLLAR BILL".

    Now, compare again the 1 dollar bill to any other, the 1 is unique in that only it has no physical separation of Notes (boxes) from left side to right side.

    I would be very careful about defacing the Federal Reserve NOTE (which only is the NOTE in the box to the left) in any way. Or the face of any 1 dollar FRN.

    However, the US Treasury Note on the right of the FACE is already properly TITLED as what it is (Again, for everything above the 1 dollar denomination) and does not even need the "Redeemed Lawful money stamp".

    Maybe since there is a 1 dollar coin already available, there was no need to have 2 separate Notes on the 1 dollar note, it is easy enough to redeem in coin?

    Also, make no mistake, the Treasury Note is still on the right side of the face is still FIAT (not gold backed) UNTIL our demand for redemption per 12-USC 411. (If that were not true, the serial number on the US Note would be RED in color, not green) and there would be no way of knowing which of the 2 NOTES was being endorsed/used in any transaction.

    After all, 300 million is still the max lawful amount of money mandated to be in circulation any given year. That is also the amount of GREENBACKS (the first FIAT national currency) that were backed by Gold in the 1800's.

    Nearly all of those greenbacks were redeemed in Gold coin at Banks and were not seized again until FDR and the Gold seizure of 33/34, and then, US BANK NOTES (RED SEALS AND SERIAL NUMBERS) were issued, in that amount, and the people could take their FRN to any bank and redeem them for US BANK NOTES dollar for dollar.

    I believe that gold coin, in that amount, is what "backs" our demand for redemption, since the FRN of today serves 'essentially the same purpose' as the US BANK NOTES did. (Still FIAT, but backed by Gold).

    The design of the FRN was changed to include an UN-REDEEMED US Treasury NOTE and put in its own box on the Right side of the note for every denomination above the 1 DOLLAR FRN.

    I believe the LAW is being fulfilled, as that is a requirement and function of law. By law, there must be 300 million Gold backed Publicly accessible "dollars".

    Those Gold coins can be traced back to the 300 million in gold coins redeemed and then seized in the past and now held in Public Trust by the United States Treasury and your and use of those US Treasury Notes on the right side of the face is actually what NOTE you are using to conduct your private and public transactions.

    That is how they (the Government agents) allow us and them to uphold the requirements of the law and still provide for the general welfare of the US Citizen. It is only by our endorsement and demand can they know which side of the LAW we are standing on and that dictates how they treat us, as Subjects or men and women with unalienable rights and lawful protections.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by martin earl View Post
    "Because of this link from the SF fed bank. Scroll to bottom and under did you know to read the second bullet:
    More than half of a dollar bill is considered legal tender, and only the front of a dollar bill is valuable. If you could separate the front of a bill from the back, only the front half would be considered "money."

    You are missing one important nuance of the above statement:

    More than half of a dollar bill is considered legal tender, and only the front of a dollar bill is valuable.

    Those are 2 separate statements.

    1."More than half of a dollar bill is considered legal tender".

    2. "Only the front of a dollar bill is considered valuable."

    If you will look more closely at any bill larger than the 1, you will find there are 2 notes, separated by a curved line and/or artistic curved lines, but there is always a solid line between the left side and the right side of the bill.

    The left side NOTE (50%) is the FRN, all the lettering and the seal and the "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER...."

    There is nothing on FRN side of the note that crosses the line to the NOTE on the right side, which is clearly titled "THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" has the Treasury seal and nothing about it being legal tender. The serial numbers match, but even they are separate registration numbers, one for the FED books, the other for the Treasury.

    Notice the above quote is for "A" dollar bill. That definition does not speak for anything but the 1 dollar bill. Certainly nobody would agree "A DOLLAR BILL" is the same thing, legally or lawfully as "A 5 (five) DOLLAR BILL".

    Now, compare again the 1 dollar bill to any other, the 1 is unique in that only it has no physical separation of Notes (boxes) from left side to right side.

    I would be very careful about defacing the Federal Reserve NOTE (which only is the NOTE in the box to the left) in any way. Or the face of any 1 dollar FRN.

    However, the US Treasury Note on the right of the FACE is already properly TITLED as what it is (Again, for everything above the 1 dollar denomination) and does not even need the "Redeemed Lawful money stamp".

    Maybe since there is a 1 dollar coin already available, there was no need to have 2 separate Notes on the 1 dollar note, it is easy enough to redeem in coin?

    Also, make no mistake, the Treasury Note is still on the right side of the face is still FIAT (not gold backed) UNTIL our demand for redemption per 12-USC 411. (If that were not true, the serial number on the US Note would be RED in color, not green) and there would be no way of knowing which of the 2 NOTES was being endorsed/used in any transaction.

    After all, 300 million is still the max lawful amount of money mandated to be in circulation any given year. That is also the amount of GREENBACKS (the first FIAT national currency) that were backed by Gold in the 1800's.

    Nearly all of those greenbacks were redeemed in Gold coin at Banks and were not seized again until FDR and the Gold seizure of 33/34, and then, US BANK NOTES (RED SEALS AND SERIAL NUMBERS) were issued, in that amount, and the people could take their FRN to any bank and redeem them for US BANK NOTES dollar for dollar.

    I believe that gold coin, in that amount, is what "backs" our demand for redemption, since the FRN of today serves 'essentially the same purpose' as the US BANK NOTES did. (Still FIAT, but backed by Gold).

    The design of the FRN was changed to include an UN-REDEEMED US Treasury NOTE and put in its own box on the Right side of the note for every denomination above the 1 DOLLAR FRN.

    I believe the LAW is being fulfilled, as that is a requirement and function of law. By law, there must be 300 million Gold backed Publicly accessible "dollars".

    Those Gold coins can be traced back to the 300 million in gold coins redeemed and then seized in the past and now held in Public Trust by the United States Treasury and your and use of those US Treasury Notes on the right side of the face is actually what NOTE you are using to conduct your private and public transactions.

    That is how they (the Government agents) allow us and them to uphold the requirements of the law and still provide for the general welfare of the US Citizen. It is only by our endorsement and demand can they know which side of the LAW we are standing on and that dictates how they treat us, as Subjects or men and women with unalienable rights and lawful protections.


    That is some wonderful insight! Thanks!

  8. #8
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    In reference to the backing you mentioned, this was part of the New Deal F.D.R. mentioned.

    Name:  m2d.jpg
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    I did a little searching for backing this up, I see where the changeover happened confiscating the gold, but so far as backing I have only seen information on stock commodities and not mortgages as it specifically states in the attachment, but depending on what stock commodities they could be one in the same.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by motla68 View Post
    In reference to the backing you mentioned, this was part of the New Deal F.D.R. mentioned.

    Name:  m2d.jpg
Views: 826
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    I did a little searching for backing this up, I see where the changeover happened confiscating the gold, but so far as backing I have only seen information on stock commodities and not mortgages as it specifically states in the attachment, but depending on what stock commodities they could be one in the same.
    "held in trust"

    Last edited by David Merrill; 03-18-11 at 04:27 PM.

  10. #10
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    Under president Gerald Ford:
    August 14, 1974 - Congress authorized U.S. citizens to own gold; December 31, 1974 - private U.S. citizens were allowed to buy and own gold for the first time in more than 40 years.
    http://www.usmint.gov/historianscorn...e&century=1900
    (Click on the site and scroll down to category " 1974")

    U.S. Citizens are statutory persons, subject to that trust construction. Those who have pledged themselves to the U.S. Corporate Construct Trust no matter what the circumstances. Blind ambition I guess.
    http://www.manta.com/c/mm0pmlq/execu...tes-government
    ( Executive Office Of The United States Government in Washington, DC is a private company)
    Last edited by motla68; 03-18-11 at 03:07 AM.

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