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Thread: The Gift

  1. #21
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug555 View Post
    Now notice the key words I highlighted. THEM refers to THESE PHARISEES. Christ's answer was for them. The Mt 24 "signs" are meant for the End Time generation.

    Thanks for your post Keith.
    I am just wondering why do I care about why Jesus would have a conversation with some so called Religious folks. And clearly he is telling them, by your reasonings, that the Kingdom is within them? When clearly even my nine year old can point out that those Pharisees are total hypocrites.

    Why it will not be too much longer that those same pharisees will be plotting to kill Jesus, the man. But when I realized one day that I am a total hypocrite, then I realized he, Jesus, is telling me about me. And the Armageddon that is being fought within me.

    Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles are all observed within me - but EVENTUALLY they will all be observed outside of me as we are all transformed from "glory into glory". For when has church ever converted its members without the end of a gun?

    Shalom,
    MJ
    Last edited by Michael Joseph; 03-21-15 at 10:05 PM.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    I suppose there can be much significance in paying attention to who is being spoken too. Consider the Samaritan woman and her "five husbands"-- the Samaritan's AFAIK had five gods. Some people try to universalize thing that are specific to the audience being addressed.
    She was thirsty for water [truth]. Her five husbands were known to St. Paul too.

    Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    And there she was looking for more water [truth]. Jesus is trying to tell her how to find truth from WITHIN herself. The Way to the Dayspring from on High.

    John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

    Apparently those other five CAN'T give those living waters! Imagine that... And we have 2000 years of proof!

    John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

    John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    RELIGION is nothing but a Cistern and is no well.

    Pro 5:15 Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.

    Pro 5:17 Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee.

    ======

    Otherwise, why do I care one bit about some conversation that happened at some dry well. Plainly put, I don't. But if it makes another "feel better" to think some conversation happened thousands of years ago at some well - then so be it.

    I seek that Dayspring - WITHIN ME. Otherwise it appears from my meager experience that the "bitter waters" served up by religion have not healed anyone - I see war, famine, hatred, racism, bigotry, sexual gender bias, and on and on....

    And there the woman is coming yet again - each Sunday/Saturday to the well - seeking water. Now, THAT I understand, why? Because I used to be her!

    It is not to say that Religionists are my enemy, that is not so. I just see things from a different perspective now.

    Shalom,
    MJ
    Last edited by Michael Joseph; 03-21-15 at 10:18 PM.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Of course those five teachers that are without as St. Paul recorded are just that Without my Temple.

    Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    But their are five other husbands that seek to lead - those are called: Sight, Taste, Hearing, Smell and Touch. And it is thru these that I experience the world and form my intellectual understandings rooted in my sensual experience.

    But these are blind guides. And therefore the understanding gained thru these five husbandmen are equally as blind as the understanding gained thru the ones in Eph 4:11 IF and ONLY IF, those in Eph 4:11 are undertaking without the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

    Thus in most cases there is no difference.


    Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    Joh 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

    Comment: His disciples should know better but religion only seeks its own. They look everywhere under the sun for meats for the belly and meats for the mind - but they don't do it the way Jesus told them to do it! And Jesus asks "why do you call me Lord and do not obey me?" Valid question! Here the literalists would most likely agree verse 53 is an allegory! I don't know but I'm just saying - most likely.


    Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water



    Shalom,
    MJ
    Last edited by Michael Joseph; 03-21-15 at 11:05 PM.
    The blessing is in the hand of the doer. Faith absent deeds is dead.

    Lawful Money Trust Website

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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Joseph View Post
    I am just wondering why do I care about why Jesus would have a conversation with some so called Religious folks. And clearly he is telling them, by your reasonings, that the Kingdom is within them? When clearly even my nine year old can point out that those Pharisees are total hypocrites.

    Why it will not be too much longer that those same pharisees will be plotting to kill Jesus, the man. But when I realized one day that I am a total hypocrite, then I realized he, Jesus, is telling me about me. And the Armageddon that is being fought within me.

    Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles are all observed within me - but EVENTUALLY they will all be observed outside of me as we are all transformed from "glory into glory". For when has church ever converted its members without the end of a gun?

    Shalom,
    MJ
    Notice this excerpt from your reply above:
    And clearly he is telling them, by your reasonings, that the Kingdom is within them?
    No, using the "within you" translation is YOUR position MJ. My position is that the kingdom is NOT "within them", as I have made abundantly clear in previous posts. The kingdom, in the person of Jesus, its King, was "in their midst", but they could not see that, because that truth can only come by revelation from the Father (Mt 16:16-18).

    See post17071
    For look, the reign of Elohim is in your midst!"
    Then re-read post17006

    The only sign given to them was Christ being dead and literally rising again in 3 days, just as the literal experience of Jonah being in a big fish for 3 days. (Lk 11:29)

    Hmmm... isn't this "sign" talking about the fulfillment of the "allegory" (TYPE) called "The Passover" the 1st of the 7 Annual Holyday TYPES?

    Didn't Christ make that perfectly clear to these Pharisees when He was standing there "in their midst"?

    Lk 17:25:

    25 "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
    Holyday 1 was being fulfilled right before their eyes, and they could not see it.. They were focused on Holyday 4, when Christ comes as a literal King on earth. Because of this "blindness", they killed the Messiah. Likewise, many will kill the Firstfruits who are fulfilling Holyday 3 (Rev 6:9-11).

    It should be clear, if one is being honest in the search for truth, that anything should not be taken out of context.

    To ignore the context of Lk 17:21, IMO, is not being honest.
    Last edited by doug555; 03-21-15 at 11:49 PM.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug555 View Post
    Notice this excerpt from your reply above:


    No, that is YOUR position MJ. My position is that the kingdom is NOT "within them", as I have made abundantly clear in previous posts.

    See post17071


    Then re-read post17006

    The only sign given to them was Christ being dead and literally rising again in 3 days, just as the literal experience of Jonah being in a big fish for 3 days. (Lk 11:29)

    Hmmm... isn't this "sign" talking about the fulfillment of the "allegory" (TYPE) called "The Passover" the 1st of the 7 Annual Holyday TYPES?

    Didn't Christ make that perfectly clear to these Pharisees when He was standing there "in their midst"?

    Lk 17:25:



    It should be clear, if one is being honest in the search for truth, that anything should not be taken out of context.

    To ignore the context of Lk 17:21, IMO, is not being honest.
    Jesus was first of the firstfruits plural and, if you want to look at that as a second harvest of sorts so be it. However, I believe that Jesus is telling me today to be about the work. Clearly I am the Temple [between my ears] the Scripture declares it.

    So I seek the literal fulfillment of those Holy Days within me first. Naturally they will eventually occur without me in mankind. I seek those living waters TO DAY. We just have a different perspective as I believe Jesus told Martha that those who are alive and believe will never see death. If Jesus transfigured, then so can I.

    Because, I don't believe that Jesus was unlike me in any way. When the "sun of Righteousness" arises upon those who choose to obey Jesus, then the Kingdom will grow in numbers and while first it manifested within me, later it will manifest without me in Society - as we all become One in Trust - under The Word.

    As far as I can tell the so called "end times" have been around for a long time now. Acts 2 tells me the so called "latter days" plural - two days - two thousand years - have been ongoing now for some time.

    Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

    Seems Peter was thinking he was living in the last days!

    Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


    I suppose that must have been a first out pouring maybe it was in the beginning of the latter days? I am sure that I will never find truth in my own vain undertakings. I didn't write the book.

    I find it hilarious that only Jesus and the woman were at the well - and here we have a line by line discourse as if perhaps a scribe was standing by to record the dialog. Oh yes, I know it was an inspired story that John received of the Holy Spirit - sort of like a Parable.


    Maybe John was there to give a first hand witness......no that couldn't be true else...


    Joh 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)


    One day Pentecost shall happen throughout all of mankind and so too will Tabernacles. Of that there is no doubt. The stars declare it.


    Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

    Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

    Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

    Psa 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

    Psa 19:5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

    Psa 19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.



    Joh_3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.


    Regarding context.....here it is in its totality...v 22 changes subject and verse 19 ends a subject.

    Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    Comment: So why are many looking for signs [observations]? I guess many just don't belve Jesus

    Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Comment: That is pretty blunt to me. He is saying it is not going to be setup here or there on the earth - as many would like the "new streets of gold" to replace the Roman rule...there is nothing new!




    Shalom,
    MJ
    Last edited by Michael Joseph; 03-21-15 at 11:48 PM.
    The blessing is in the hand of the doer. Faith absent deeds is dead.

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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Joseph View Post
    J...

    Regarding context.....here it is in its totality...v 22 changes subject and verse 19 ends a subject.

    Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    Comment: So why are many looking for signs [observations]? I guess many just don't belve Jesus

    Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Comment: That is pretty blunt to me. He is saying it is not going to be setup here or there on the earth - as many would like the "new streets of gold" to replace the Roman rule...there is nothing new!

    Shalom,
    MJ
    Context again:

    "...he answered them... the kingdom of God is within you."

    This context shows that "within you" must NOT be the proper translation, as you agree that would obviously be wrong, with them being Pharisees.

    Therefore,"in your midst" must be the proper translation.

  7. #27
    Let us not forget that...

    "For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there I am in their midst."

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Alan View Post
    Let us not forget that...

    "For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there I am in their midst."
    Kind've like saying "its right in your faces"? Interestingly and much related, many have seemed to miss the the point and meaning of Ezekiel 48:35. If I were speaking to the Pharisees, I wouldn't suggest the kingdom to be in them but "in their faces" or the like.

    Jesus Christ could not have been telling the Pharisees that God's Kingdom was something that existed within their hearts or minds—after all, these were people who wanted to destroy Him
    Perhaps the modern-day legalists are similar to the Pharisees of the day? How can anyone look for an earthly kingdom or seat of governance when:

    #1 Ephesians says its heavenly
    #2 In the book of John its clear that its "not of this world".

    Even modern-day Hindus and African Christians or Hebrews readily accept the idea that India and and the Aryans weren't necessarily statist nations and that they weren't necessarily a "biological race", but were distinct cultures or 'tribes'. You can have the same culture and live hundreds of miles apart and be part of the same tribe or nation. Even the U.S. Government's 14th amendment citizenship seems to me to just be a reiteration of how a king or kingdom can be personal, territorial or both personal and territorial. It seems many Westerners have been too quick to impose statist models on the past and so fail to see how a kingdom doesn't necessarily have to be associated with a crayon-colorable shape on a map. Just say no to Babylonian Kool-Aid--Daniel did.

    So whoever has promoted bloodshed, poverty, temple desecration for the deceptive guise of setting up a Jesus Christ's kingdom on earth through the sword might have some 'splainin' to do (not naming any names) AFAIK, Matthew 26:52 isn't an exhortation against self-defense but a warning on the dangers of the use of conventional warfare to prosper or to evangelize. Matthew 26:52 to me is like "LOL put that sword away, you're missing the point. consider the ramifications." Clearly the intent was nothing along the lines of an earthly military campaign. He would have ridden a horse (war sign) instead of a donkey (peace sign) and summoned the might of the many more. Obviously, he wasn't trying to set up an earthly kingdom.

    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Matt. 23:27
    How on earth (semi-pun intended) could he be telling them that the kingdom of God was inside of them? Surely dead men's bones and all uncleanness isn't the kingdom of God!

    Related:
    Luke 17:20-21: Is the Kingdom "Within You" or "In Your Midst"?
    Last edited by allodial; 03-22-15 at 03:54 AM.
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    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    Kind've like saying "its right in your faces"? Interestingly and much related, many have seemed to miss the the point and meaning of Ezekiel 48:35.
    Yes, very interesting and much related. Thanks for bringing that point.

  10. #30
    If he were talking to believers, I could go with "within you".
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

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