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Thread: The Gift

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    If he were talking to believers, I could go with "within you".
    I'm reading the Halleluyah Scriptures translation, which is from the Aramaic. I find it really strikes a chord with me.

  2. #32
    I have that translation and set it aside, believing that it is simply a typical translation with the word LORD substituted with Yehovah in paleo-Hebrew.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    I have that translation and set it aside, believing that it is simply a typical translation with the word LORD substituted with Yehovah in paleo-Hebrew.
    When I read it, it speaks to me. It seems fresh, and new.

    Until recently, I've favored the AV. For many years, this was bolstered by my understanding (even if somewhat inaccurate) that the AV, being written in the King's English, illuminated the legal nature of the Bible as applied in law.

    But I find the Halleluyah Scriptures refreshing. I saw on YouTube that the publishers are working on a new concordance, and I'm awaiting it with great anticipation.

  4. #34
    Thank you.

    I will take another look at it. I was expecting that I would have the paleo-Hebrew and the direct translation.

    The Word speaks to you, and that is great. I may have dismissed that particular translation early. If I get the concordance with it, then I think you may be onto what I was hoping for.

  5. #35
    Yes, the paleo-Hebrew is what drew me to it. I take it you've studied the otiot? I began studying it about a month ago, and I find it fascinating, especially how it connects to the English language.

  6. #36
    I view Acts 2 as a reclaiming of the Nations after being dispersed at the Tower of Babel. The Nations were disinherited and immediately Abraham was called to be the "father" of God's portion, Israel. The other Nations were given over to their "passion fruit" and lesser divine beings ("Beney Elohim") governed over them as punishment.

    The 120 that were present at the event of Pentecost were inspired to accept the gospel and go back to their "homeland" to preach the good news. They were astonded that the gospel was being spoken in their own native language by people who would otherwise not be able to utter a single word they could understand. This is God's way of reclaiming the scattered people and infiltrating the false god worshiping Nations with the True Word of The Most High God.

    I believe this event actually happened (not merely allegorical) as did other events depicted in scripture. Those who do NOT see the Kingdom as being here and now in any way are mistaken; Jesus' mere presence on earth brought the Kingdom. However, it is here - but not yet; there is more to come. The full manifestation of the Kingdom is literal in my opinion; a global Eden. Obviously, the language used by the ancients to describe such a Kingdom comes from an ancient worldview using descriptive analogies understood by those who were their contemporaries.

    It would be counterproductive and useless to write in any other way; we, in this day and age, have the ability and resources to learn the ancient languages, traditions and cultures so that we can better understand the context and mindset of an "Israelite" and the ancient near east culture they lived in.

    In my opinion:

    To say NOTHING is allegorical is folly. To say EVERYTHING is allegorical is also folly.

    Why do we care about what people did thousands of years ago? Because the Author and Creator of the Heavens and earth is unlimited in His ability and capacity and He knows that the lives of the people He directly spoke to in biblical times would benefit us greatly if we interpret the meaning and message He has authored through them by His Divine Providence.

    Allegory is a most useful and beneficial tool for teaching. However, it does NOT totally dismiss or negate the literal; they work symbiotically to convey The Way our Father wants us to live our actual lives.

    Here is a excellent teaching directly related to this post:

  7. #37
    Acts 2 was not mere allegory. Jesus told them to tarry. After the formal conferring to him in heaven of a kingdom (Ephesians 1), he endued them with that power (ala Ephesians 2). The reason why fallen angels would be keen on denying the resurrection or death of Jesus is because the resurrection precedes the ascension and the ascension precedes the formal conferring of the kingdom (per Ephesians 1). As in, denying one thing bar the other.

    Acts 2 is record of Jesus completing his primary mission or at least a primary phase thereof. From tents and tabernacles to temples, Acts 2 clearly evidences that something of great importance was accomplished.

    As for the 'upper room' thing, the allegorical or symbolic help serves to help rather than invalidate. If generations were taught to wash cups on the inside first then wash the outside and later learned it was symbolic or allegorical concerning how they need to be clean on the inside (mentally, in speech, in thought) first and foremost over outer appearances: would it mean they should stop washing cups at all just because they get the allegory/symbolism?
    Last edited by allodial; 03-23-15 at 08:39 AM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    If he were talking to believers, I could go with "within you".
    Re: the above...was a bit hurried so was unable to add more. Regardless of their (the Pharisees in the audience) dispositions or condition, he was very likely speaking to them--even the Pharisees--with the hope that they would see the light so to speak, whether then or afterwards--with the hope that they would be willing to get rid of the bones/skeletons and dirt (something to do with repentance?). Was not His goal was to save as many of them as possible at the time? Furthermore, can it be presumed of the Pharisees present that all unwaveringly opposed him at the time? Also, regardless of any bad press the Pharisees may have received, perhaps the Pharisees were in a sense "believers" or "members of the club" under the pre-70AD 'cosmos' then? Regardless of how they treated him or what he knew they might do to him, he still with love in his heart spoke to them with truth.

    But there is no clear attestation for such a meaning as "among" or "in the midst" for the adverb {entos} in any ancient Greek source. It is indisputable that "within" is the ordinary meaning, and the immediate context here also seems to favor this meaning. Here Christ is obviously contrasting the outward appearance (... "with observation," v. 20) with the inner spiritual reality of God’s rule. It was understood thus by the translators of all the ancient versions, and by all the Church fathers. Moreover, as S.C. Carpenter explains, "For 'among' S. Luke would have said ... {en mesos--Greek doesn't show up well here}, which occurs seven times in his Gospel (see especially xxii. 27) and four times in Acts."

    The circumstance that in Luke’s narrative these words are addressed to unbelieving Jews does not make any difference, because as Olshausen says, "The expression {entos hymon} does not make the Pharisees members of the kingdom of God, but only sets before them the possibility of their being received into it, inasmuch as an internal and spiritual manifestation is made its universal criterion." (From first article/link below)
    To mind came this verse:

    The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly. Proverbs 20:27
    ...alongside the principle of cleaning the inside of the cup (i.e. at Matthew 23:26 were the same Greek word 'entos' is translated 'within'). Both relevant 'entos' verses have been inserted below:

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    At Luke 17:21, the Greek is 'entos' (typically I look at the Greek or the Hebrew to glean meaning and context). At Matthew 23:26 the word for outside is 'ektos' (seems kind've opposite like enter vs. exit). IMHO, "in the midst of" or "in your midst" adequately alludes to or encompass 'within' as well. "in your midst" reading can seems more variable or 'fuzzy'. "In your midst" gives a clue to anyone that can hear and who is seeking the kingdom that it is not far off.

    Furthermore, the word "you" in Jacobean English is plural as opposed to thee (which is singular).

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    I have always 'entos humon' to be 'within' or 'inside'--but remotely or possibly 'in your midst'. "In your midst" comes off as being a bit more provocative of a local search or more 'mysterious'. Also, the "two masters" dilemma is addressed or touched upon. If a man cannot serve two masters, and the kingdom of God is within or "in your midst"--definitely not far off--then it seems such a revelation or truth would push making a choice to the forefront. Puts Joshua 24:15 in a perspective, no?

    ...choose you this day whom ye will for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15 in part
    Interestingly, I was reminded of this while going through some files before bed. Proverbs above came to mind and I just happened to rather 'coincidentally' pull out a snippet from an article related to Luke 17:21 that I had filed a while back. A link to that article (first one) should be found below along with another.


    I don't see Luke 17:21 to be any kind of statement of 'universal godhood'--at least not in the Neo-Gnostic sense. Afterall, he was addressing the Pharisees (who were going to temple and the temple was still standing at the time of the Q&A) rather than the Samaritan woman. To knowledge, the temple was still functional and would be for another 30+ years. While the Pharisees may have been seen as being in 'spiritual adultery' or 'blind' or whatever, I'm not sure how they could have been regarded to be 'strangers' (esp. in view of the olive tree grafting paradigm). Thusly, not sure how the Q&A could on the surface be universalized.


    P.S. Luther translated Luke 17:21 (Ger.)using the word 'inwendig' (which can mean 'interior', 'inside', 'indwelling' (in Dutch)) (i.e. " wird auch nicht sagen: Siehe hier! oder: da ist es! Denn sehet, das Reich Gottes ist inwendig in euch.")

    P.S. #2 Another work suggests: "In Koine Greek, the expression entos humon (literally, "inside of you") often meant "within reach." Thus, Jesus' statement in Luke 17:21 could mean 'The kingdom is within reach.'"

    P.S. #3 The Rainbow (A Magazine of Christian Literature) Volume XIII (1876) - Pages 140 & 141 (in part) (below)
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    Last edited by allodial; 03-25-15 at 03:32 AM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    peaceful inhabitant on the Earth
    Years ago I worked on a project at NC State university whereof said project was the development of a quantum computer. The idea was and is the basis of entanglement. In principle with the basis of Scripture as our guide - believe it or not - the emitter wave or photon which is the electron expanding into wave form can only be received by an electron vibrating at the same resonance frequency. Once the photon [light wave] is received, the 2nd electron immediately receives the encoded information and is changed. Thus it was theorized that information can move up to the speed of light as it is subject to the photon wave which can only propagate up to the speed of light.

    Tangent: If you desire to discuss bending of space/time then of course the virtual path is much shorter than the actual path and thusly if you measure along the actual path it only SEEMS that information has moved faster than light but that is just an illusion.

    Num 2:9 All that were numbered in the camp of Judah were an hundred thousand and fourscore thousand and six thousand and four hundred, throughout their armies. These shall first set forth.

    Gee what a coincidence that the men of Judah number 186400 - THE SPEED OF LIGHT.

    Jesus Christ showed us how thru meditation to make our minds receptive to receiving God's Will. I liken it simply to actually obeying Jesus' words instead of trying to intellectualize them into serving our vain religious dogmas. I love how St. Paul put it so succinctly:

    Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

    Look at the things which ACCOMPANY salvation...

    I wish to know even as I am known - then there is no hope or faith - for what is faith when you know a matter? The churched [of which I count myself] has been taught to death that we all have a portion of the Holy Spirit and I came to think that was all - but here we find a different story. If those SEVEN spirits are active - see Isaiah 11:2, then the body fills with LIGHT. Amen.

    Why is it that the world is only concerned with Salvation? And that begs another question. Salvation from what? Is it death? Then explain, this one:

    Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

    Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

    Why is it that the churched accept v.26 within their conceptualization or limiting of God today - when if those men once lived they are dead now? But I see another path. Those men are symbols - they REPRESENT aspects of every living man[kind]. Otherwise, once thinking it thru, then the God in the Bible is a respecter of persons and therefore the Bible is annulled.

    But I see a different story - Christ in ALL - a standing wave of light - which is ready to be received by those of pure consciousness. That is those who obey. For why do they call Jesus lord and do not obey? I know the answer - because dogmatic religion gets in the way. Traditions of men as it were.

    But our ego in use of the ten percent of our so called "left brain" stands in the temple of God and shows that it is God - ruling in this vessel called the body. This was a devastating revelation.

    I now see the 12 disciples as the twelve aspects of thought that stand ready to serve us as apostles. I am unsure if these are dispatched from the sub-conscious or the super-conscious but these are already taught ones awaiting one with authority to send them forth into the world - which is our conscious mind. Of course our ego in intellectualism gets in the way as most of the world is trying to "figure out" by intellect. When in fact the method prescribed by Jesus Christ is one of sacrifice [ten percent] of our carnal mind. Take every thought captive.

    At-ONE-ment means much more to me this day than any other day before. To be in resonance with our Lord is to be in The Way of God - thusly the Bible is telling me how to be receptive to Jesus and Jesus is telling me how to bend my ear to "hear" the tune.

    Can you show me anywhere in the Old Testament where John [the Baptist] received his authority to Baptize? Where did this revelation of God's Will come? Certainly not from the traditions of man's vain understandings - Church systems.

    I feel like a man on a new journey. Recently in meditation I came to see purple and the experience was well amazing in sensation. But then another wild thing happened -in the middle of the night, with my eyes closed, sitting in the dark - I was bathed in yellow light. So I asked for Wisdom and the light shut off. I have come to realize that I asked improperly - which is to say not in the methods that Jesus declared. We are to ask as if we already have what we desire. Therefore we implant the seed of thought into the Womb of Creation [Holy Spirit] and She brings forth the child of our desires. Next time I am at that place I will know better. Alas this too is a part of discipline - a student must be a doer.

    So a man can proclaim his beliefs upon the waters but I prefer those who perform [do] before those who just understand. That DNA stuff that we have is some amazing code - when one gets around to studying just how amazing it is one is at once convinced a Creator exists. So then there must be a method of communication.

    Mat_6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

    In watching my thoughts - the wave collapses into an Electron and I am now in reception mode. When I am active upon my intellect [carnal mind] then, I am upon my thoughts [spotted cattle of Jacob] and I cannot receive the pure white cattle of God [thoughts of God].

    Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Therefore I climb the Mountain in my prayer closet - not speaking or uttering words but in not speaking - emotional intellectualism is sacrificed on the alter as a sweet odor unto the Lord in obedience! I have become a watcher of the cattle in hopes of shepherding the sheep [thoughts] of God as Abel the Righteous. For any scientist will tell you our bodies are electrical systems. And to the pragmatic, please with specificity using any coordinate system of your choosing define and locate your next thought in TIME and SPACE.

    For it has been revealed to me that I am as Cain in my intellect rationalizing myself into the arms of the Savior. Therefore who am I to judge my brother. This is a personal journey. Therefore who am I to save another? One who believes will seek, do and find. Of course, I am not seeking to tell anyone "how it is" or "what to think". I am not like the Pastor who says this is the way it is. Rather, I share my experience for what it is.

    I mean just ask any religionist what is God's Will - wait for the silence - then after the hamster has been around the wheel a couple of times - await the intellectual rationalization of nonsense - which basically means - "I have no idea what I'm talking about so I have to justify myself so that I can sleep better at night." Answers such as "you have to find God's Will for your life" - are such nonsense answers because "no duh". Tell me something I don't know! Like how to "bend my ear to hear the tune".

    Let it be known, there is a fountain. That was not made by the hands of men....

    Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.

    If you think me to deny Jesus Christ, then you think wrong. Rather I uphold Jesus in actually obeying what he taught.

    Mat_6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

    Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

    Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

    Mat_6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

    Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

    Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

    To believe in Jesus means to place ones trust in Jesus and one trusting appoints the Trustee Lord over the Estate. Therefore, Jesus asks why do you call me Lord and do not obey me? One who submits in trust is now subject to the bylaws of the trust agreement. But we read that the Carnal Mind cannot be subject to the bylaws! Are you starting to see?

    Last edited by Michael Joseph; 03-25-15 at 09:16 PM.
    The blessing is in the hand of the doer. Faith absent deeds is dead.

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  10. #40
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    xtalk from another discussion:

    Michael...I appreciate your prayer and I recognize the full worth of your kindness and patients without complaint...I'm aware that this situation with my family is only problematic in my mind while we are trying to move from one place in thought to another [Cain vs. Able] ....It's a hard transition, My wife and I grew up in the so called intellectual movement...The "Cain" Me Generation...I know that-that may just sound like a label or hearsay ...but it was definitely a time never seen before on college campuses that had great influence...But that's not an excuse!....As you probably know, the process and period of time changing from one state or condition to another is not easy...I'm finding that the learning process is not done over night....My wife and I are slowly but surely working our way out of the basement of our mind towards the top floor with a goal of giving all 10% to God....I think that you are right...It takes lots of meditation, a lot of practice, and lots of discipline....Your help in this is beyond measure! I could never have been able to EVEN start the process without your HELP! Thank you!...


    Response by MJ:

    One day you will help another.
    The Kingdom of God IS LIKE one who finds a pearl of GREAT PRICE. Once he finds that pearl all else just doesn't matter. So it is very personal. I can only point you in the right direction. You must do the work. Now I know that too flies in the face of modern do nothing religion. But the word "believe" in John 3:16 means "to place in trust or entrust". If I enter into trust with you then we two become one in trust and we two are bound by the bylaws of the trust agreement.

    To try to use an example, your wife might write a letter to you telling you she wants to meet you for supper at [name your restaurant] at 6pm. If you don't show up then you will not enjoy her company and furthermore, you will not receive what she wants to tell you! In part, that is what the Bible is telling you - how to make that 6pm date!

    We discipline ourselves and this is like daily knocking on the door - expecting that the good master is home and eventually he will get tired of the knocking. He tarries a bit to test the resolve. Is this just another carnal being bent on getting [another beggar at the gate] or has real change occurred?

    Said another way: Luk_16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

    Luk 16:12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

    Abraham told his servants to stay at the base of the mountain with his ass - his carnal mind could not ascend into the mountain. Issac was the child of Sarah - which is to say that which is given from God. Are you ready to even put to death what has been granted from God in order to win Christ?

    Php_3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

    In deed the foregoing is a hard lesson to learn and to accept. It is hard to hear. Nevertheless the fleshly minded ones are at enmity against God and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God! Now we see clearly St. Paul was not advising suicide in the following and we understand the death to be of the carnal mind.

    Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    Nevertheless I do not deny the flesh for in doing so would be denying my own flesh. Rather, I look past the flesh to learn the Spiritual truths of God. St. Paul gave the key in his discourse concerning Christ JESUS and Jesus CHRIST.

    I trust the words of Jesus so that I might show up for the 6pm supper with Christ! Amen. Abram/Abraham/Issac/Jacob/Leah/Rachel are therefore all aspects of me. But I do not discount their physical existence even though it means little to the Spirit because flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Speaking concerning flesh and blood vs. the Kingdom of God:

    Mat_11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    And considering the teachings of the man Christ JESUS we find that ALL THINGS that were taught were done in parable:

    Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

    1Jn_1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    Jas_1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    Mat_5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

    Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    An outward expression of the inner truth.

    Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he....

    There is no collective Salvation. And certainly the things that ACCOMPANY salvation are not collective as well.

    Make it a great day!
    Michael Joseph
    Last edited by Michael Joseph; 03-25-15 at 05:21 PM.
    The blessing is in the hand of the doer. Faith absent deeds is dead.

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    ONE man or woman can make a difference!

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