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Thread: Sky Serpents

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Joseph View Post
    The dark eyed woman - rising - those who looked upon the Serpent that Moses RAISED up in the wilderness did not die!

    Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
    ...
    that of course would be the lower carnal meaning. The higher meaning of Serpent is Wisdom.
    In context: the people were murmuring and speaking ill of God and Moses. The serpents bit them in judgment for PUNISHMENT. The reason they were healed upon looking at the brazen serpent IS BECAUSE OF FAITH--has nothing to do with the serpent representing wisdom. The non-living serpent put to death on the pole would more likely represent something like putting carnal mind or carnality to death or in check rather than wisdom coming from the serpent. The serpent as wisdom is error. The serpent's venom led to death even in the Garden of Eden ... it led to death in the wilderness. What isn't super obvious that serpents' venom can cause death. Forbidden knowledge is perhaps forbidden because it can be poisonous?

    And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. Numbers 21:6-9
    1. LORD says do something.
    2. Moses obeys and in faith does it.
    3. Moses' faith and obedience has the desired effect.

    Seems to me that they are all under Moses' trusteeship. It was ALWAYS FAITH from Abraham through to Jesus Christ. The faith of the high priest can be powerful even when others might lack it.

    To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:18 (Jesus)
    It was Moses' faith or the faith of the onlooker who believed that looking at the brazen serpent would have that effect if they were told. ALWAYS FAITH. The serpents that bit them seem to have been used for JUDGEMENT/DAMNATION rather than wisdom. God in his providence showed that he had power of recall the judgment (left hand). That is what that arrangement was. If you read the whole story, you'll see it was all about faith from end to end. It was FAITH rather than gnosis that saved them! The Brazen serpent was inanimate..so in a sense a 'dead snake' rather than a live one.

    For those who don't quite get the point:

    1. God said or promised something to Noah.
    2. Noah believed it, obeyed, had faith.
    3. Noah and others were saved through Noah's faith.

    Reiterating:
    1. God said or promised something to Moses.
    2. Moses believed it, obeyed, had faith.
    3. Many were saved through Moses' faith.

    Further:
    Did gnosis or knowledge save Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve were told about tree of knowledge of good and evil and its side-effects. Did they beileve? Did they have faith in God? Did knowing/Gnosis save Adam and Eve or did it cause death of some kind? They knew right? The Serpent came with a lie contrary to God's promise, statement or warning. Who did they have faith in God or the Serpent? Serpent as wisdom is not found in the Bible. How can poison to your mind or soul or affairs be wisdom? While wisdom can be gleaned as an after effect playing with snakes, who in a sane mind can attribute wisdom to a snake, to snake venom or to a snakebite?

    Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 4:7
    Behold , I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Luke 10:19
    Behold, I give you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,.... Which may be literally understood, as in Mark 16:18, or figuratively of the devil, and his principalities and powers, and all his emissaries, who, for their craft and cunning, and for their poisonous and hurtful nature and influence, may be compared to serpents and scorpions.

    ...and nothing shall by any means hurt you. not the most hurtful and poisonous animals, nor the most malicious persecutors on earth, nor all the devils in hell: as the former venomous creatures, when took up in their hands, should not hurt, their bodies; so the other, whatever they might be permitted to do with respect to their lives, and outward estate, should never hurt their souls, and the eternal welfare of them; nor even hinder the work of God prospering in their hands (From Gill's commentaries)
    If serpents and scorpions represent wisdom, of what use would be the power to tread or trample on wisdom?

    They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:18
    Hmm seems very, very familiar (see Numbers 21:6-9 above) for some reason.

    Related commentaries re: serpents:

    ...shall be enabled to give, when such a proof may be serviceable to the cause of truth, this evidence of their being continually under the power and protection of God, and that all nature is subject to him.
    Faith is the substance of things hoped for.
    Last edited by allodial; 03-27-15 at 02:41 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    In context: the people were murmuring and speaking ill of God and Moses. The serpents bit them in judgment for PUNISHMENT. The reason they were healed upon looking at the brazen serpent IS BECAUSE OF FAITH--has nothing to do with the serpent representing wisdom. The non-living serpent put to death on the pole would more likely represent something like putting carnal mind or carnality to death or in check rather than wisdom coming from the serpent. The serpent as wisdom is error. The serpent's venom led to death even in the Garden of Eden ... it led to death in the wilderness. What isn't super obvious that serpents venom cause death. Forbidden knowledge is perhaps forbidden because it can be poisonous?



    1. LORD says do something.
    2. Moses obeys and in faith does it.
    3. Moses' faith and obedience has the desired effect.

    Seems to me that they are all under Moses' trusteeship. It was ALWAYS FAITH from Abraham through to Jesus Christ. The faith of the high priest can be powerful even when others might lack it.



    It was Moses' faith or the faith of the onlooker who believed that looking at the brazen serpent would have that effect if they were told. ALWAYS FAITH. The Serpent was used for JUDGEMENT/DAMNATION not wisdom. God in his providence showed that he had power of recall the judgment (left hand). That is what that arrangement was. If you read the whole story, you'll see it was all about faith from end to end. It was faith rather than KNOWLEDGE or GNOSIS that saved them!

    The Brazen serpent was inanimate..so in a sense a 'dead snake' rather than a live one.

    For those who don't quite get the point:

    1. God said or promised something to Noah.
    2. Noah believed it, obeyed, had faith.
    3. Noah and others were saved through Noah's faith.

    Reiterating:
    1. God said or promised something to Moses.
    2. Moses believed it, obeyed, had faith.
    3. Many were saved through Moses' faith.
    Faith is only for the one who does not know.
    The blessing is in the hand of the doer. Faith absent deeds is dead.

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  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Joseph View Post
    Faith is only for the one who does not know.
    If you fail to believe what you know or in what you are told then what good is it? If someone truthfully were to say that there is a blazing comet falling from the sky headed for your house and you laugh and mock them. All the knowing would do you little good (i.e. in that case the equation might be knowing + doubt + zero works/action resulting in death, loss or injury). If you were to look through a skylight and see this ball of fire drawing closer and closer, but you simply shrugged and laughed "Its an illusion. Its not real." All the knowing still would not save you.

    Without faith in the subject matter, knowledge might be like dust (for a scientist, a gardener, a pilot, an engineer, a baker, etc.). In the Garden of Eden story, what was the serpent destined to feast on? Who was the serpent destined to be at enmity with? The seed of the woman (the "Isaacs").

    Adam and Even *knew* about the consequences of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They KNEW. Did knowing save them from the consequences?

    Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. John 9:41
    Perhaps serpent venom in the eyes or perhaps in the mind could cause blindness. Even Jesus in his mercy and compassion left a door open for the Pharisees. It takes humility sometimes to admit to blindness, error, insanity, not being as wise or intelligent as one might like to believe oneself to be--a humility that can be very much worth it in the end.
    Last edited by allodial; 03-27-15 at 03:03 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    If you fail to believe what you know or in what you are told then what good is it? If someone truthfully were to say that there is a blazing comet falling from the sky headed for your house and you laugh and mock them. All the knowing would do you little good (i.e. in that case the equation might be knowing + doubt + zero works/action resulting in death, loss or injury). If you were to look through a skylight and see this ball of fire drawing closer and closer, but you simply shrugged and laughed "Its an illusion. Its not real." All the knowing still would not save you.

    Without faith in the subject matter, knowledge might be like dust (for a scientist, a gardener, a pilot, an engineer, a baker, etc.). In the Garden of Eden story, what was the serpent destined to feast on? Who was the serpent destined to be at enmity with? The seed of the woman (the "Isaacs").

    Adam and Even *knew* about the consequences of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They KNEW. Did knowing save them from the consequences?



    Perhaps serpent venom in the eyes or perhaps in the mind could cause blindness. Even Jesus in his mercy and compassion left a door open for the Pharisees. It takes humility sometimes to admit to blindness, error, insanity, not being as wise or intelligent as one might like to believe oneself to be--a humility that can be very much worth it in the end.
    Those who know and do anyways are discoursed hereinafter:

    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

    Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


    The sensuous carnal nature [Ishmael] is always at war with the spiritual nature [Issac]. But if you must have an external serpent then so be it.

    Regards,
    MJ
    The blessing is in the hand of the doer. Faith absent deeds is dead.

    Lawful Money Trust Website

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  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Joseph View Post
    Faith is only for the one who does not know.
    Do you claim to know all there is to know? If not, you must still have faith, no?

    Can anyone here claim to know enough as to discard faith? Please, make yourself known.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Joseph View Post
    The sensuous carnal nature [Ishmael] is always at war with the spiritual nature [Issac]. But if you must have an external serpent then so be it.
    Your affinity or need for serpents isn't mine. I'm unaware of 'must having' any serpents. Jesus wasn't equated with the serpent. Its the method by which faith was used for deliverance that would run a parallel. The precedent was set for that type of faith-activated intercession with the wilderness story. The point was not to equate Jesus with a serpent.

    In the wilderness, they asked Moses to pray for them--they didn't pray themselves. (Related term: Intercession, mediation.)

    Also in one thread that you put the Isaacs (the church) to death and yet now you say Isaac represents "the spiritual nature". Puzzling.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    Your affinity or need for serpents isn't mine. I'm unaware of 'must having' any serpents. Jesus wasn't equated with the serpent. Its the method by which faith was used for deliverance that would run a parallel. The precedent was set for that type of faith-activated intercession with the wilderness story. The point was not to equate Jesus with a serpent.

    In the wilderness, they asked Moses to pray for them--they didn't pray themselves. (Related term: Intercession, mediation.)

    Also in one thread that you put the Isaacs (the church) to death and yet now you say Isaac represents "the spiritual nature". Puzzling.
    Yes Isaac was birthed not in the flesh but I was willing to put to death my religion and it was restored unto me with understanding.

    Mostly I hear from religionists goes a bit like this: ribbit, ribbit

    I am sorry it puzzles you. Thank you for caring about me.


    Shalom
    MJ
    The blessing is in the hand of the doer. Faith absent deeds is dead.

    Lawful Money Trust Website

    Divine Mind Community Call - Sundays 8pm EST

    ONE man or woman can make a difference!

  8. #18
    "The Higher meaning of Serpent is Wisdom"

    From the writings of Annie Besant...

    "The truth of the Hermetic maxim, "Demon est Deus inversus" is borne in upon us when the Church lifts before our eyes the figure of the great "Angel of Darkness", and we see that his symbols are the same as those of the Christ. Satan has been painted as man's direst foe, as his adversary and accuser, his tempter and would-be destroyer; Christ is represented as the very antithesis of this; as man's most compassionate friend, as his helper and defender, his guide and would-be redeemer.

    How, then, comes it that two characters so diverse bear the same symbols, are presented under the same image ? Lucifer is the Son of the Morning, the star falling from heaven; Christ is the bright and morning Star. Lucifer is the Dragon, the Serpent, twined round the Tree of Knowledge; Christ is the Serpent lifted on the Cross, the Tree of Life. The characteristic attribute of the Serpent — Wisdom — gives us the key of the allegory, for both are types of the human mind, of the double-faced entity, by which alike we fall and rise. For the Star that fell is our Divine Ego, that was the bearer to animal man of the heavenly light, Lucifer, light-bearer, in very truth.

    And entering into man, it became indeed his tempter, for the very powers it brought made such evil possible as the animal could never know and, united in man with animal desire, it brought memory and subtlety of enjoyment, and anticipation of renewal, and so became man's ever present tempter, plunging him [Page 14] into evil in its search for sensation and for experience of material life. And then it became his accuser, when evil brought suffering, and sensation brought satiety, and ignorant desire worked out into pain; for it accused the body as its deluder when itself had guided the body, and the man of flesh had been but the instrument of the thinking man.

    Thus was the Ego the bringer of disharmony, for its own will ruled it and it was ignorant in matter, and blindly eager for experience, and its ignorance and eagerness wrought for pain and hence for its education. And then it began to turn its face upward instead of downward, and to aspire to the Divine instead of seeking for the brute, until striving ever towards the Spirit it lifted animal man from animality, and became his redeemer instead of his tempter, his purifier instead of his degrader. For as intellect materialized is Satan, so is intellect spiritualized the Christ, and therefore is it that both bear the same symbols, and the Fallen Angel becomes the Angel of Light."


    source

  9. #19
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    Lucifer to knowledge was the name or title given to a Babylonian king or perhaps to a king of Tyre. It has been suggested that thematically Babylonian kings and/or the king of Tyre were alluded in texts that are said to refer to Lucifer or Satan. It is said that back in the days of Jericho and Joshua, systems of "god kings" where imposed in some areas such that these "god kings" would hold themselves out in place of God and aiming to rule over people in that way--even making up their own religion or history to go along with. From what I gather, Lucifer or one or more kings of Babylon or Tyre attempted to usurp a position. If someone attempts to take on a position of authority that they aren't ready and their taking that position could have disastrous effects, then a higher authority might set out to thwart such. Jericho had a meaning like "temple of the moon". The kings in those days were actually holding themselves out to BE GOD rather than point to God. You can get an idea of their doctrine from the way Nebuchadnezzar acted, he wanted them to BOW DOWN TO HIM. Rather than the king pointing to God or pointing to Christ, the king thought himself to be all in all. It might be best to see the Morning Star as like an "office".

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    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:4-5
    Adam was also in the Garden. So was Eve. So was the serpent. The serpent suggested that they "shall be as gods" should they eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. And interestingly enough the King of Tyre claiming to be God. Did the king of Tyre maybe eat some fruit from the same tree?

    It doesn't seem that the brazen serpent was a type of Jesus. It was made by Moses. It was crafted out of bronze/brass. The whole matter demonstrated priestly intervention and faith as a means of salvation. Remember, the Israelites had spent time in Egypt and just maybe were influenced by idol worship so perhaps God was aiming to work with them out of mercy. They didn't pray to God --Moses prayed and Moses responded with faith.

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    Even if the Golden Calf symbolized something, worshiping the symbol wasn't the point was it? I got the impression of a type of probation period being in effect. People busily exalting and profiting from legalism miss that point!

    From analysis, in the book of Joshua, Jericho seemed more like the embodiment of a religious system. I just don't get why people try to flake everything out into mere symbolism. Shall we simply say the beheadings in the Middle East are merely symbolic--that they aren't really cutting people's heads off? But instead saying "That it represents the higher mind being free of the lower natures?" Seriously? Shall we pretend that real world child sacrifice and child trafficking is all some 'Gnostic allegory' to ponder but that its not really, really babies being burned alive or murdered ritually among other things? Was the brown-skinned male who got hung from a tree for saying hello to a pale-skinned female back in the 50s that hanging on a tree just an allegory--it didn't' really happen its just "symbolic": "Nah it didn't really happen its just symbolic of the 'carnal natures' being raised from the mundane with the intervention and assistance of 2nd and 3rd day pre-carnal creations and Natures which help bring his foundations to a higher plane giving them wings (symbolized by swaying feet) so that he may travel loftier paths." Umm...seriously?

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    The story of Joshua & co. taking Jericho seems to be more about putting a type of religious system to an end. God wasn't being mean. He afforded approximately five hundred years of patience and mercy. He was putting an end to terrible tyranny: slaughter of innocents and filthy, vile and nasty things men did because they set out to exalt themselves above all else and hold themselves out as God all in all and in there excuses themselves from restraint on doing things that were terrible. Blocking the exits and ensaring captives so that they could fill their bellies with souls? Such self-ordained "god kings" may have been casting shadows, causing blockages where they ought not? Maybe God was seeking to put an end to such depravity?

    Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Ezekiel 33:11
    All of the apologists for darkness and vileness seem to fail to point this: that God doesn't take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. Vlad the Impaler took pleasure in what he did according to the record. These serpents aren't symbolic of wisdom, they are archetypes of those who have some engrossed in the carnal and who have shut off God while claiming to be gods and who embark upon embracing the vilest of depravities while holding themselves to be a law unto themselves. From observation, some of the modern day two-legged dragons take pleasure in what they do too. They try to make God to be a "bad guy" while aiming to conceal what they really are up do when they suspect no one else is looking. I'm not talking about things done consensually, but the injurious things they do to innocents and to the righteous. My observation has been that they grow bored in their own company and so seek victims to ensnare.

    I have met a few Theosophists and, sadly, with such encounters such came undeniable proof that two-legged serpents really do exist--the hatred for God, the disdain for purity and innocence, the terrible things they did to children all because they exalted themselves to status of supreme being in their own heads--add in a sense of entitlement from "Racial Supremacy" or the like and I had never encountered such who could be so befitting of being referred to as "depraved monsters" (even their own family members swayed in terror by them).

    Advocates are members of the Faculty of Advocates and have status akin to that of Barristers in England & Wales. The Faculty of Advocates was founded in 1532 as an independent body of lawyers. They have usually been solicitors in private practice or in public office prior to calling to the Scottish Bar.

    The period of training an Advocate undertakes is called 'Deviling". This is a period of at least 9 months where the Advocate in training (Devil) attends formal training seminars, shadows practising members of Faculty and is required to pass numerous Faculty exams in order to be deemed fit to call as an Advocate.
    Two hands of God were referred to in the NT: the left and the right. Relevantly, the person holding the office of a County Prosecutor might outside of his workplace be your best friend. But once he dons the mask of the office of Prosecutor or Judge Advocate, might not be so friendly? That role he plays might have its place. But if that same prosecutor decides to become a law unto himself and make his own rules while ignoring higher authorities--well consider Nebuchadnezzar aiming to get the three boys to worship him and failing that to burn them alive. Oh but "nooooooooooooooooo--that doesn't happen", "no one ever does that"--"its only symbolic".

    Just as examples: As for the roles of Adversary, Prosecutor or Devil and those who embody such roles, how can anyone change the purpose and intent of the office into something else? Even the modern day prosecutor doesn't write books on how to stay out of jail, he is aiming to profit from putting folks in jail or from collecting revenue.

    Per Ephesians chapters 1 and 2 Jesus and the saints are seated at the right hand. From scriptures, one might infer the Tree of Life to be at the right hand of God. If so, then where might the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil be? If you have a garden full of plants and one causes death to eat thereof: can it be anything other than poisonous?

    From what I recall, certain of the "Native Americans" had a notion of good and evil coming from separate emanations or branches of creation.


    On the extreme, the serpent aimed to feast on its prey. The underlying theme seems to be about kings who would go so far as to believe themselves to be God all in all and through and through to the extent of great tyranny (reminiscent of King of Tyre, no?) and injury even to the saints (Nebuchadnezzar tried to burn three of them. Only symbolic? Tell that to the Syrians who won't worship Bashar Hafez al-Assad).

    P.S. The Hebrew word (Nahesh) translated to serpent in Genesis sounds a lot like Nagas. The term "Nagas" is suggested to have been used as a title used for KINGS or SERPENT KINGS.

    P.S. #2 The Hebrew word translated 'dust' in Genesis might also be translated as 'rubbish'.
    Last edited by allodial; 03-28-15 at 12:13 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  10. #20
    seems similar to other hearsay Ive encountered about the fish falling from the sky. (also FWIW LOL)

    related to that story is the Tiamat collision theory, suspended animation of lifeforms (frozen) in something like an asteroid belt or comet trail and when it nears earths atmosphere, the frozen life forms re-animate while falling from the sky.


    there is large granite formations that have natural bowl shaped indention's scattered on the surfaces that form small ponds during extended rainy seasons but remain dry for years at a time until then.

    I have first hand knowledge of this phenom. with no water source other than excessive rain, small fish appear in these spots of water later in the wet/warm season from seemingly no where!

    Ive seen this only twice in my lifetime when the conditions were perfect for it to happen. its quite incredible. I dont think they fall from the sky but it may be from dried eggs or something similar that stays as residue when the water all evaporates.

    these places go for years without enough rain to form the small ponds, then if we get excessive spring and summer rainfall amounts. the small fish are back!

    Im sure I could make an explanation for this phenom using only the bible if I had a good enough reason too ;-)

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