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Thread: Non-Christian Historical Evidence for the Existence of Jesus

  1. #1

    Non-Christian Historical Evidence for the Existence of Jesus

    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  2. #2
    Why Christ was never historically a Christian simply his ministry was to expose not impose a religion it is my humble opinion the 2nd coming of Christ is a concious awakening within your sleeping Christ its comforting what Christ said and did Christian religion that brass knuckle therapy has put us all to sleep a divine spark takes us out of rehab one cant invent a better Christ when we each spark on different ignitions but if a physical Christ was necessary for a Man & Woman of Judah then its no different when Christ shows up at a Greyhound bus station or on the Whitehorse with earth wind and fire and the Miami Horns in Central park it just does not need to happen it be great but the day millions spark as one in the Christ the message the performance waits on us all Easter whats not in your bonnet certain eggs have been hidden takes a lifetime to fill that basket . Take Christ bowling this Friday stop killin Christ or wishing someone could.My intent was not historically or religious as restricted as the video is who can explain Christ its when ones told few are qualified to even try the. Thief on the Cross puts mud in my eye
    Last edited by xparte; 04-03-15 at 06:43 AM. Reason: direction

  3. #3
    The video isn't about any religion or any tenets of any religion except for the historic reference to Jesus Christ. The video actually tends toward being a neutral view of the historical record. Rather than being about any religious tenets or doctrines, the thread is thusly about the non-Christian sources of evidence of the existence of Jesus and of his death by crucifixion/hanging. Backgrounder: many lies have been spread around denying his existence. Interestingly enough, according to the video, even the Talmud, for one, actually evidences his existence, his hanging and his working of miracles.
    Last edited by allodial; 04-02-15 at 03:52 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  4. #4
    A historical Christ is not the biblical Christ thats being offered in this video is to verify paid historians view of a important figure in rabbinical yet historical treasonous cult leader. The Talmud never mentions the word Christians or does it ?when Christ was alive Christians were absent of any claim to Christ So what need for a historical account of a Christians account for a Man that they never met its all well and good for historians down the road to ridicule A Judean rabbi that upset a temple hierarchy the narration and video are well done if one thinks Christians and opinionated civil servants 100 + yrs down the road it might as well be a 1000 the fact Judah had a beef with Christ and a historical Jesus was not the one Christians took advantage of. Rome took advantage of both a historical Christ and developed a biblical Cannon Christ oddly enough while the Torah was closing its final canonical books Constantine took a historical figure that united all his Bacilica bishops to all those Christians proof so my comment is who gains the most a historian that crafts a biased based on a biased.who is the Author of Christ who every has the Authority is that Author I watched the video its claim that a greater need for the separation of Christians from a historical Christ than Rome's historical wish to kill every last Christian When it began on June 19, 325, the fires of persecution had barely cooled. The Roman Empire had been unsuccessful in its attempt to wipe out the Christian faith. Fourteen years had elapsed since the final persecutions under the Emperor Galerius had ended. Many of the men who made up the Council of Nicea bore in their bodies the scars of persecution. They had been willing to suffer for the name of Christ. So maybe historical Christ was resolvent Nicea was not creating some new doctrine, some new belief, but clearly, explicitly, defining truth against error. The council had no idea that they, by their gathering together, possessed some kind of sacramental power of defining beliefs: they sought to clarify biblical truth, not to put themselves in the forefront and make themselves a second source of authority this cut and paste is subjective.

  5. #5
    And if my understanding undermines the fact a historical account of JC is less dogmatic than this Consider the following list. These are the historians and writers who DID live within Christ's alleged lifetime or within a hundred years of it, this is cut and dry how important agendas are?
    Apollonius Persius
    Appian Petronius
    Arrian Phaedrus
    Aulus Gellius Philo-Judaeus
    Columella Phlegon
    Damis Pliny the Elder
    Dio Chrysostom Pliny the Younger
    Dion Pruseus Plutarch
    Epictetus Pompon Mela
    Favorinus Ptolemy
    Florus Lucius Quintilian
    Hermogones Quintius Curtius
    Josephus Seneca
    Justus of Tiberius Silius Italicus
    Juvenal Statius
    Lucanus Suetonius
    Lucian Tacitus
    Lysias Theon of Smyran
    Martial Valerius Flaccus
    Paterculus Valerius Maximus
    Pausanias
    Yet, aside from two FORGED passages in the works of a Jewish writer mentioned above, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there isn't ANY mention of Jesus Christ. At all. Consider:
    "Philo was born before the beginning of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ's miraculous birth and the Herodian massacred occurred. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness, and resurrection of the dead took place -- when Christ himself rose from the dead, and in the rpesence of many witnesses ascended into heaven.
    "These marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, we unknown to him. It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although this Word incarnate dwelt in that very land and in the presence of multitudes revealed himself and demonstrated his divine powers, Philo saw it not.

    "Justus of Tiberius was a native of Christ's own country, Galilee. He wrote a history covering this time of Christ's reputed existence. This work has perished, but Photius, a Christian scholar and critic of the ninth century, who was acquainted with it, says: 'He (Justus) makes not the least mention of the appearances of Christ, of what things happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did' (Photius' Bibliotheca, code 33).

    "Josephus: Late in the first century, Josephus wrote his celebrated work, _The_Antiquities_of_the_Jews_, giving a history of his race from the earliest ages down to his own time. Modern versions of this work contain the following passage:

    "'Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. (Book XVIII, Chapter iii, Section 3).'
    "For nearly sixteen hundred years Christians have been citing this passage as a testimonial, not merely to the historical existence, but to the divine character of Jesus Christ. And yet a ranker forgery was never penned.
    "Its language is Christian. Every line proclaims it the work of a Christian writer. 'If it be lawful to call him a man.' 'He was the Christ.' 'He appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.'

    "These are the words of a Christian, a believer in the divinity of Christ. Josephus was a Jew, a devout believer in the Jewish faith -- the last man in the world to acknowledge the divinity of Christ. The inconsistency of this evidence was early recognized, and Abrose, writing in the generation succeeding its first appearance (360 A.D.), offers the following explanation, which only a theologican could frame:

    "'If the Jews do not believe us, let them, at least, believe their own writers. Josephus, whom they esteem a great man, hath said this, and yet hath he spoken truth after such a manner; and so far was his mind wandered from the right way, that even he was not a believer as to what he himself said; but thus he spake, in order to deliver historical truth, because he thought it not lawful for him to deceive, while yet he was no believer, because of the hardness of his heart, and his perfidious intentiion.'
    "Its brevity disproves its authenticity. Josephus' work is voluminous and exhaustive. It comprises twenty books. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders. Nearly fourty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed with a dozen lines."
    -- The Christ, by John E. Remsburg, reprinted by Prometheus Books, New York, 1994, pages 171-3. A
    If Christ needs historical facts we all know facts are on the moon Flavius Josephus fully defected to the Roman side and was granted Roman citizenship. He became an advisor and friend of Vespasian's son Titus, serving as his translator when Titus led the Siege of Jerusalem,

  6. #6
    Regardless of the baseless hatred that many spew in view of the historical record--not to mention the historical record of the Celts and British and pre-Roman Christians at Glastonbury, etc., the video simply states historical evidence of the existence of Jesus, the crucifixion/hanging of Jesus and the miracle working and includes the Talmud itself as a source of such information. The modern trend is to lie, lie, lie just for the sake of lying so as to get as many folks over into worshiping (i.e. serving) the creatures of men as possible.

    Its worth noting that term "Christian" was also used by Simon Magus' followers. Biblically, it is a term that was used to refer to followers of Jesus by those at Antioch. Furthermore, the Romans are said to have embraced Simon Magus but to have rejected Jesus. So this idea of Rome being aligned with Jesus seems rather fallacious.

    Christian, Christ, Anointed, Anointings
    More noteworthy is the significance of having an anointing in the OT and the NT. To be anointed is to be granted power and authority by God. Anointed and the word Christ are rather hand-in-hand. The concept is not new to the Brit Hassadah or NT. Anointing was the key to power rather than some mystical, secret rite.

    If Josephus defected to the side of the Romans wouldn't he have been more inclined to have said hateful/negative things about Jesus especially since the Romans were clearly on a mission to exterminate his followers? Wouldn't he have simply omitted mention? I have trouble seeing how anyone with a a sane, clear-minded, reasonable perspective could see Josephus as anything other than neutral. Among the "plebes", it was believed that the presence of the followers of Jesus were the cause behind the failing of the oracles and such following the crucifixion--so the Romans tended to blame the followers of Jesus and associate their presence with inhibition of the functioning of oracles, etc. Clearly, Josephus would not have been biased with the Romans and made any positive mention of Jesus. If Josephus was highly partial to the Romans it is more likely that he would omitted mention of Jesus or would have simply been negative.

    Traitors Against?
    If Josephus or Jesus were traitors, who could they possibly have been traitors against? In ancient Israel, was there such a thing as being a traitor against anyone other than God? Did not Daniel with Divine Assistance foretell the events that transpired by 70AD? Who would call Daniel a traitor?

    As for later fiddling with Testimonium Flavium it is possible. Skepticism might be an antiseptic for the mind, but blind hatred posing as truthfulness is far from that. In any cause, comparison of Greek and Arabic texts shows that in any case, his (Jesus') existence, his being crucified and the resurrection are found in both the Greek and Arabic copies.

    Name:  TestFlav_Arab_Greek_compared.png
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    Note: The underlined portions are alleged to be 'interpolations' or 'inserts'. So if we throw those out, we are left with a record that shows the existence and crucifixion of Jesus along with reference to the notion of his having been resurrected. Its worth noting that the Pentateuch has at least one resurrection event.
    ***

    The idea of Roman State Religion being the source of the doctrines of Jesus is a myth purposed to bury the truth. How could Roman State Religion be the source of what was clearly external to and allegedly embraced by Constantine hundreds of years after 70AD? The Romans started on a campaign to destroy and undermine the Ecclesia's positions throughout North Africa and the British Isles and the historical record shows it. Even Afro-Centric writers such as Chancellor Williams and history about the Hawaiian Kahunas allege a destructive and spiritual subterfuge coming from Rome to their lands.

    The video while not centered on Josephus, does contain clarifications about the multiple statements Josephus made about Jesus--there was more than one reference. But Josephus isn't the only. Again this intended to be historical rather than philosophical.

    Also, anyone with wisdom then regarded the 66-70AD to be a Divine Judgment period rather than a mere war. Josephus (a priest) may have seen what others may have been unwilling or unable to see. Its interesting that Josephus was regarded to be a traitor but where are such allegations are made against Daniel or Esther? Josephus was held as a slave/captive until 69AD. Josephus was a priest and perhaps was highly aware that prophecies were unfolding right before his eyes then. Josephus is said to have been aware of Daniel's timeline and regarded it to be significant to his time.

    When I do research, I avoid going in with hateful bias or expecting this or that.

    Resurrection
    Regardless of the fallacies that some have attempted to propagate, the OT and the NT are hardly disconnected. Resurrections are mentioned in several places in the OT.

    • 1 Kings 17:17-24 (KJV)
    • 2 Kings 4:35 (KJV)
    • 1 Kings 13:21 (KJV)


    The concept or idea of belief of resurrection of the dead is mentioned also:

    • Job 19:25
    • Daniel 12:2
    • Isaiah 26:19.


    So when the same people who attack Josephus also deny such and such is in the OT (baptism/mikveh, resurrection) such gives even more cause for being very prayerful or cautious about believing what they say--because why would they say such things unless they are hiding something? Likewise, a healthy skepticism should go into reading much of anything. Even still, if all sides are hiding something, what are they hiding? Is it worth finding out?

    Related:
    Last edited by allodial; 04-03-15 at 12:03 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  7. #7
    And my discourse being I have plenty to hide or plenty to find my history is hidden in Christ and if any one can bring that forward including all the crews wrapped in nations claiming nothing is new under the Son gentiles and jews a big family I love you.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xparte View Post
    Why Christ was never historically a Christian simply his ministry was to expose not impose a religion it is my humble opinion the 2nd coming of Christ is a concious awakening within your sleeping Christ its comforting what Christ said and did Christian religion that brass knuckle therapy has put us all to sleep a divine spark takes us out of rehab one cant invent a better Christ when we each spark on different ignitions but if a physical Christ was necessary for a Man & Woman of Judah then its no different when Christ shows up at a Greyhound bus station or on the Whitehorse with earth wind and fire and the Miami Horns in Central park it just does not need to happen it be great but the day millions spark as one in the Christ the message the performance waits on us all Easter whats not in your bonnet certain eggs have been hidden takes a lifetime to fill that basket . Take Christ bowling this Friday stop killin Christ or wishing someone could.My intent was not historically or religious as restricted as the video is who can explain Christ its when ones told few are qualified to even try the. Thief on the Cross puts mud in my eye
    Jesus Christ did not teach to worship himself he showed however how incredible we each are! I am just like Jesus in every way and so is every man and woman. If that was not the case then what is this all about? But to heck with my logic. I care not for my own vain reasonings.

    Here we are again in another Passover season, the Sun of God has gone thru the Southern Cross and is consuming Aries now and Springtime has come again! The trees are regenerating, stretching their arms towards heaven. And the winter of our discontent is over. Yet folks are preparing to eat and drink physical food and observing a physical day as if that has anything to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    Someone sent me this page today in jest we both laughed at this one.


    I suppose one might take the Bible literally but I take the oil [Christos] to be something else altogether. Certainly it is not physical else the parable of the ten virgins makes no sense at all [Matt 25].

    Heb_1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


    In speaking to the OIL we see both feminine and masculine natures: El [Masc] Ah [Feminine] Yah [Sacred Name YH]

    G1636
    elaia
    el-ah'-yah

    Feminine of a presumed derivative from an obsolete primary; olive oil


    Also the manna might be taken to be literal stuff to eat [physically] but I take it spiritually as in that which I eat to feed my mind. I notice at once that God did the feeding of the manna. Man did not have one thing to do with the creation of the manna only the gathering of the so called "food".

    Therefore in meditation I fall silent in sacrifice of my ten percent and the manna of understanding and knowledge is provided by God. Therefore my head is anointed and my mind is satiated. I look down at my two hands and I perceive the hands of God.

    The two become one and submit to Christ; and Christ submits to Father. Therefore I and the Father are One.

    Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


    PLEASE don't read over verse 5 with haste. That is a Command! We are commanded to think as Jesus thought! And Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God!

    Let this mind be IN YOU. Let this mind be IN YOU. The Kingdom of God is IN YOU.

    1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    UNLEAVENED BREAD - is that which has not been tampered with one bit by the minds or hands of man! Religion be damned! I love my brethren I hate the Religions [control systems] bent on taking unmercifully from those who would buy something each week only to have it delivered at their death! Great system! I got a few things to sell myself. I'll make you a great deal, you pay me now and I will deliver the good now. Sounds fair to me.

    Tonight I teach the young and the old about the Pharaoh that rules in their carnal mind. He is also known as Herod. Allegorically the same! Hopefully there will be no religious non-sense else I might hear ribbit, ribbit in my ears. We shall be about the work of releasing the prisoners from their house of bondage.

    High is The Way. Let us keep it in Spirit and Truth! As we are commanded. Amen.

    Jesus taught us to pray "OUR Father". Of that he included Himself! Amen.

    Joh_5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    If the Son [Jesus] could see the Father, then the son [me and you] can too! I trust Jesus' teachings with my life. Enjoy the Seder.

    Psa 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

    I am the sheep of His Pasture, but I can choose to rule in this house under my will - in the carnal mind. Cut off the head of Medusa and let the White Horse come! Amen.

    Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

    Abel the righteous was a shepherd of the thoughts [sheep] of God.

    Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your MIND.


    H3824
    le?ba?b

    BDB Definition:
    1) inner man, mind,


    JER 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

    EZE 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and,behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

    Gen_2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

    2nd Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.


    If you can bear with me in my folly consider that even if you hold to the literal crucifixion, it can also be rendered a parable. For the crucifixion happened in the place of the Skull [Cranium = Calvary]. And we know the literal interpretations according to the "Letter" leads to death - at least that is what the Bible says. So we seek the Spiritual place of the Crucifixion.

    I can't make such a claim without the authority granted in the Bible so see the following:

    2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    The city is consciousness. Dead bodies are carnal thoughts sacrificed and put to death. Sodom is the place of burning - the torment of this life walking without the guidance and companionship of the Holy Spirit and Christ. Sodom is the place of the carnal mind. Egypt is the physical plane. The place where the religious proclaim with one loud voice - give us Bar-abbas - the Son of our father's traditions - we want our religion! We do not want Christ.

    Selah.


    Shalom Brethren,
    MJ
    Last edited by Michael Joseph; 04-03-15 at 09:45 PM.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Consider again how difficult it is to ride two donkeys into a city with screaming folks. Jesus must have toured with the circus because that is quite a feat. Until one realizes it is a PARABLE. And the religious absent knowledge and with one voice scream out "Save Now - Save Now".

    Saying we can't wait for the day of the Lord. Give us our father's religion. A societal womb!

    Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

    There were ten virgins five of them did not have ENOUGH oil. Selah.

    Shalom Brethren,
    MJ
    The blessing is in the hand of the doer. Faith absent deeds is dead.

    Lawful Money Trust Website

    Divine Mind Community Call - Sundays 8pm EST

    ONE man or woman can make a difference!

  10. #10
    Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


    PLEASE don't read over verse 5 with haste. That is a Command! We are commanded to think as Jesus thought! And Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God!

    Let this mind be IN YOU. Let this mind be IN YOU. The Kingdom of God is IN YOU.
    Perhaps a different interpretation rings truer:

    Prior to verse 5, we are given the attributes of the mind of Jesus that we should emulate as commanded in verse 5...

    1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

    Verse 6, can perhaps mean the following...

    Thought it not robbery to be equal with God (???? ?????????? ????????? ??? ??????? ????? ?????)


    Robbery is explained in three ways. 1. A robbing, the Acts 2. The thing robbed, a piece of plunder. 3. A prize, a thing to be grasped. Here in the last sense.

    Paul does not then say, as A.V., that Christ did not think it robbery to be equal with God: for, 1, that fact goes without. saying in the previous expression, being in the form of God. 2. On this explanation the statement is very awkward. Christ, being in the form of God, did not think it robbery to be equal with God; but, after which we should naturally expect, on the other hand, claimed and asserted equality: whereas the statement is: Christ was in the form of God and did not think it robbery to be equal with God, but (instead) emptied Himself. Christ held fast His assertion of divine dignity, but relinquished it. The antithesis is thus entirely destroyed.

    Taking the word ?????????? (A.V., robbery) to mean a highly prized possession, we understand Paul to say that Christ, being, before His incarnation, in the form of God, did not regard His divine equality as a prize which was to be grasped at and retained at all hazards, but, on the contrary, laid aside the form of God, and took upon Himself the nature of man. The emphasis in the passage is upon Christ's humiliation. The fact of His equality with God is stated as a background, in order to throw the circumstances of His incarnation into stronger relief. Hence the peculiar form of Paul's statement Christ's great object was to identify Himself with humanity; not to appear to men as divine but as human. Had He come into the world emphasizing His equality with God, the world would have been amazed, but not saved; He did not grasp at this. Rather He counted humanity His prize, and so laid aside the conditions of His preexistent state, and became man.


    source

    Which seems to coincide well with verses 7-8...

    7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    Context.
    Last edited by BLBereans; 04-04-15 at 01:26 AM.

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