Non-Christian Historical Evidence for the Existence of Jesus

[Michael Joseph]

We serve the same Christ we just see it from a different point of view. Some are awaiting a future event others seek Christ now. Both will be satisfied. I care not for the futurism as it leads to oppression today. When this message hits the streets in mass the Church Business Plan will go bankrupt.

Let it be.

This "I'm just a pilgrim passing thru mentality is for the birds", in my opinion. It allows folks to just treat this place as a waste land. Look around.

Until then here is a cup of tea for the tillerman.

"Bring tea for the tillerman, steak for the sun
Wine for the women who made the rain come
Seagulls sing your hearts away
'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play

Oh Lord, how they play and play
For that happy day, for that happy day"

Cat Stevens - Tea For The Tillerman


23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

may Christ be formed in all of us.

Gal_4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Our bed is Green sayeth the Shulamite woman.

Yes indeed xparte, all men and women require salvation. Isn't it HIGH TIME we move on past the baby milk of salvation. St. Paul made that request 2000 years ago.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Who can hear?

Shalom,
MJ

[doug555]

We serve the same Christ we just see it from a different point of view.

Lest others misunderstand, or assume that I agree with the above, for the record, I strongly disagree with that assertion/presumption.

See: http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseact...nism-Today.htm

Unfortunately, it is in the context of syncretism that Nicolas is last mentioned in the post-biblical, historical record. Both Irenaeus (Against Heresies 1.26.3; 3.10.6) and Clement of Alexandria (Miscellanies, 3.4.25f) consider Nicolas of Antioch to be the founder of the Gnostic sect known as the Nicolaitans. Another early writer, Hippolytus, adds that Nicolas "departed from sound doctrine, and was in the habit of inculcating indifferency of both life and food" (Refutation of All Heresies, 7.24), meaning he taught the Gnostic belief of the irrelevance of physical things.

Rev 2:6

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

The Christ I serve hates Gnosticism.

Do not misunderstand. Christ does not hate Gnostics. He hates the works of the Gnostics.

So do I, for good cause.

[BLBereans]

The Christ I serve hates Gnosticism.

Do not misunderstand. Christ does not hate Gnostics. He hates the works of the Gnostics.

So do I, for good cause.

Here, Here!!!

I second that motion.

[xparte]

G.K Chesterton “it is often supposed that when people stop believing in God, they believe in nothing. Alas, it is worse than that. When they stop believing in God, they believe in anything! Nations are called to give glory, sacrifice, and worship to the Lord. He is their maker, He is the only true God. In this sense, all those who have not come to know the Lord still rob from their master like Onesimus did so long ago.a person is everyone who sins is a slave to sin. unprofitable slave… from useless to useful!Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin. Who,s prison Philemon 1:10-18 “I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my imprisonment, who formally was useless to you, but now is useful to you and to me. {I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart… For perhaps he was for this reason separated from you for a while,} that you would have him back forever, no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. If then you regard me a partner, accept him as you would me. But if he has wronged you in any way or owes you anything, charge that to my account.” in brackets only a person gets the separation account a Man both in the flesh & in the lord is a balanced account Do you care what accounting firm handles the books a Bank is a Bank in any nation Branches are not the tree thats you and me again Christ is what makes the books fallible no book can fail Christ. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin.” (Gal 3:22)[2]
a side is what you ask for because you cant afford a plate.This term person = everyone is sometimes used to describe all case law or judge made law. Constitution .... The concept that everyone obeys the law; no one is above it. I tell you the truth, [everyone] who sins is a slave to sin. Christ Those who have not been saved and set free by the power of the Lord Jesus are still in slavery to sin. They also become slaves to all sorts of fears and superstitions

[allodial]

1 Tim 6:20-21
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"- 21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.

The impression that I get is that the "...worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called 'knowledge'" is a type of dust.

***



The Nicolaitans & co. seem to love the Mosaic paradigm, they love holding people in probation and standing as a middleman. (Sadly, some people prefer that kind of indirect access.) They don't even see the Mosaic period for what it was--it had its purpose and its place this is clear. Perhaps they have a penchant for lording over others and acting as middle men and collecting fees for access to...??? Much of the Western industrial and financial system shows a penchant for standing in between people and their birthright. Gee, what a coincidence. The Nicolaitan's & and their cohorts don't discuss the Tabernacle of David (dare not even mention it)--why is that? With the Tabernacle of David access was possible 24/7 and the restrictions that were applicable to the Tabernacle of Moses were not take place. David is said to have been ahead of his time, he saw were God was pointing--he saw God's plan.

Given the choice: pyramid schemes vs. direct-to-source, what would any of you prefer? Of course the tabernacles were helps as one sets forth "...into His marvelous light". This is made clear.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. 1 Peter 2:9

So clearly the believer is made aware of a great and wonderful discovery awaits, there is worthy knowledge to be had and gained as part the relationship and walk with God. It is God's plan of salvation that restores each believer and puts them in a place of access to true knowledge and wisdom--rather than having to feast on dust.

The Nicolaitan types might love or prefer worship in "high places" and keeping God far off and out of reach as possible. What a coincidence. Maybe God was against high places worship because it was completely contrary to his plan. His plan wasn't to be an afar off God from what I gather.

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matthew 27:50-53

Who would be so "courteous" and "kind" as to sew the temple veil back together but Gnostics or Nicolaitans (i.e. Gnostics)? The Adversary it seems doesn't want God accessible to anyone and has many thinking they would be doing God a favor when they are really working to abate the presence of God from the entire planet (the Adversary wants true believers blamed and destroyed because his goal is to shut God out completely from access--the promotion of gross carnality and vileness is held out as "freedom" and "rights" and the Adversary's true purpose is concealed from the pawns who lend support.)

[Michael Joseph]

The Christ I serve hates Gnosticism.

Do not misunderstand. Christ does not hate Gnostics. He hates the works of the Gnostics.

So do I, for good cause.

What are the works of the Gnostics?

[Onlashuk]

I grew up attending a religious organization that put an emphasis on the physical aspect of duties, obligations and responsibilities. And, right on along with the demand and pressure to comply with said things was the kicker that if you did not comply, well, to put it plainly, using the words that religious organization used to use, “You will end up in the lake of fire.” That group never actually said hell, but that is what was implied. Make no mistake about this, that is the same manipulating message that all religious organizations use. This specific religious organization just packaged a little bit differently. Like a good minion I did what I was told and I played the same mind games of making myself look better than I actually was for the sake of the outward appearance. Such actions are worthless and only end up stealing from me the knowledge of knowing who I truly am, and what living this Life is really supposed to be about. The Feast Days of the Lord being with the Passover and then goes right into the Days of Unleavened Bread, which pictures the permanent removal of SIN from ones life. In that religious organization we used kept all of feast days listed in Leviticus 23. However, in relation to the spiritual purpose for the Days of Unleavened Bread, I must admit that I never quite understood how the physical act of the removal of leavened products, such as breads and cakes actually cleansed the inside of me. The truth is… it never did; and, it never could, for nothing physical can be profitable spiritually. But, through the tradition of religion and family men make it appear to be so even if it is only done in the fantasy of their carnal minds.

Nevertheless, I know personally what the ritual is all about and how empty it actually is, for it does nothing to benefit the soul as the duties and rituals performed are only for the outward appearance of looking good to others. I think that this experience would have been unnecessary if one thing was clearly known and understood correctly. That knowledge and understanding would be the difference between a literal dead-letter interpretation of the Holy Bible, verses a spiritual Life-giving understanding, which can only be revealed by the Holy Spirit herself. Now then, using this as the foundation to discover the true meaning of what the Days of Unleavened Bread actually do mean, which is the eradication of SIN from one’s Life, this discovery will forever change what one knows, or thought they knew about what SIN actually is. From this correct understanding of the true intent of the scriptures, the entire issue on SIN changes irrevocable from the message and doctrines that are preached by todays modern religious organizations. Mark My Words, once this knowledge is recognized and understood correctly no religious organization will ever be able to use SIN as a weapon of mass spiritual destruct in any form against you ever again. I am going to share with you exactly what my understanding of what SIN actually is, but first I will lay a bit of a foundation so that you can see where it is that I am coming from. Then I will share what has been revealed to me. But, be forewarned, if you are well adept to the legalistic dead-letter of the Word of God, what I have to say about the issue of SIN will not sit well with you as it goes against everything that is taught and preached in every religious organization that teaches and preaches from a legalistic dead-letter interpretation. So please be mindful and remember, ultimately your argument is not with me, but with the Creator and Father El Elyon Himself.

Now, speaking only for me, from and with the gifts of the understandings that the Holy Spirit has taught me, I perceive way to much emphasis on a literal interpretation of the words in the Holy Bible. I see this as being the main infection of dis-ease infecting all religious organizations of to-day. It is from this standpoint that I will share my thoughts on the difference between a literal understanding of what SIN is, and a spiritual one, which will completely reveal that a literalistic perspective and perception of the Word of God does indeed lead one to death. “There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.” (Proverbs 14:12 & 16:25) So then, my heart is to always be focused on THE WAY, and not my way, because, “…if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.” (1 Cor 8:2)

Now, let us look at SIN and what it is according to the Word of God, NOT according to a literal interpretation. For the traditions of men through religion has dictated that SIN is the breaking of the 10-commandments, or the 2-greatest commands, or the 613 laws, statutes and ordinances of the Old Covenant. Usually, this stance will always be backed up with 1 John 3:4, “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is transgression of the law.” From this posture, one can justifiably let the punishment begin and have the moral high ground to take that stand, and to execute it accordingly on all matters, correct? I would only give a soft reminder for those of such a mindset to be aware of the judgment that one is NOT to judge with, and then let it go at that, for each must chose to be a, “Follower of The Way,” or to go about matters by THEIR OWN WAY. But, what if this understanding of SIN is not only short of the true understanding of what SIN is in the context of the SPIRIT OF THE LETTER, but is also an incorrect understanding because it is founded in a literal dead letter interpretation? How in the heck can I make such an outlandish claim as this? Well, keep reading and you will see exactly why I am saying what I am saying. First, let us take a look a few scriptures and let them do the talking by and through the power of the Holy Spirit as our teacher leading us into all wisdom and truth.

• John 4:23-24, “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
• 2 Corinthians 3:6, “Who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
• John 6:63, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.”

What this is clearly pointing out is the fact that the carnal mind receives its sustenance from the flesh through its 5 senses. This is why the flesh profits nothing. For those 5 senses are the 5 husbands that Yehoshuah spoke of to the woman (Emotions) at the well and she had no True Husband. In other words, Christ was not the Head of her Life. You see, if you read that literally in the dead-letter you will miss this golden nugget of truth. This is why the carnal mind is purposefully blinded to all things spiritual as it dwells in darkness (Ignorance and Fear through its own pride and arrogance) and is completely bereft of any Light (Wisdom Proverbs 4:7, which comes from true knowledge, Proverbs 18:15 and understanding Proverbs 16:16), which is the Spirit of the Word enabling one to be blessed with the proper and correct meaning unto Life Eternal.

... [CONTINUED IN POST 2 of 5] ...

[doug555]

What are the works of the Gnostics?

Glad you asked...

Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part One: False Knowledge

Paul warns Timothy about "the subtleties and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination." The word translated "knowledge" in most translations ("science" in the King James Version) is the Greek gnosis. Literally meaning "to know," it forms the root of the word Gnosticism. It is possible, even probable, that Paul refers to Gnosticism here, since both of his letters to Timothy contain warnings against false teachers bringing in foreign concepts that were undermining the faith of church members.

Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part Two: Defining Gnosticism

At the core of Gnosticism is the belief that knowledge, typically secret knowledge—knowledge from angels, from the stars and planets, from the ancients—was the path to holiness and salvation. They believed that the path of redemption was through knowledge, and that the worst evil was ignorance.

Thus, they did not endeavor to overcome sin but ignorance. If they could just become wise enough, they reasoned, sin would not be a problem because they would be more spiritual than physical. Obviously, they overlooked man's incurably sick heart (Jeremiah 17:9), and the struggle that a person must undertake to overcome it. The Gnostics believed that the solution was found in greater understanding, rather than in a Savior and High Priest who justifies and guides us through a process of sanctification. In essence, Gnostics would rather learn than submit.
...
Some branches of Gnosticism adhered to asceticism as a way to free the eternal spirit by living regimented, plain, and insular lives. (Conversely, some Gnostics went to the other extreme—practicing hedonism—believing that what they did with their bodies did not make any difference since only spirit mattered.)

Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part Three: Satan's Three Heresies

These three heresies, each subtly undercutting God's truth and plan for mankind, have been recycled since Creation, effectively continuing the separation from God begun in the Garden of Eden. Certainly, Gnosticism incorporates these foundational falsehoods, but they also exist in every anti-God system of belief, organized or not.

An area where the wrong approach to knowledge becomes apparent is in love toward God and toward fellow man, and especially toward our brethren and families. The Gnostics tended to disdain those who were not as "enlightened" as they were. Knowledge and understanding were their currency, and they assigned value to people based on what they knew, a practice completely contrary to God's way of outgoing concern.

Nicolaitanism Today

Unfortunately, it is in the context of syncretism that Nicolas is last mentioned in the post-biblical, historical record. Both Irenaeus (Against Heresies 1.26.3; 3.10.6) and Clement of Alexandria (Miscellanies, 3.4.25f) consider Nicolas of Antioch to be the founder of the Gnostic sect known as the Nicolaitans. Another early writer, Hippolytus, adds that Nicolas "departed from sound doctrine, and was in the habit of inculcating indifferency of both life and food" (Refutation of All Heresies, 7.24), meaning he taught the Gnostic belief of the irrelevance of physical things.

Now, let me define "works of the Gnostics": the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge (gnosis) of Good and Evil - Death - for about 6000 years of man's recorded history.

Can it be any clearer?

[BLBereans]

Is it me, or is there is something eerily familiar about all that...???

[george]

interesting topic..

IMO the situation is FUBAR though because all we really have to work with is hearsay when you get right down to it.

I find the "non-christian historical evidence" just as suspect as the not non. and the gnostics, the hindus, the druids or even the spagettimonsterites. ALL Suspect!

but some things just seem to make sense and if there is any truth AT ALL it seems to have a nice ring to it but what is nice to some is not for others so here we are.

nothing is absolute and nothing is absolute and nothing is absolute. know what I mean?