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Thread: Non-Christian Historical Evidence for the Existence of Jesus

  1. #41
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Since many have gone off on this rabbit trail of Gnosticism, please, pray tell where I ever said that Salvation was by works?

    Furthermore, the Bible itself declares that we should diligently seek after knowledge and wisdom, does it not?

    and; Furthermore, Jesus Himself declared that His disciples would be about His works and would do greater works then He.

    And yet, when working or diligently seeking knowledge is mentioned in ANY religious circle for some odd reason, which I can't understand, those who feel threatened the most resort to calling names. It seems to me that the only reason Gnosticism was ever a threat to the established religion was that it threatened their concept of doing nothing but believing that a savior exists.

    Some of that John 3:16 bull dung. How about we check out that word believe - it means to entrust or place ones trust. Jesus commanded that we do much more than just place our trust in The Word [John 1:1]; He commanded us to obey [works]. Something about having no works is death rings a bell. Ding....Ding.... Yes indeed, there it is Faith absent Deeds is dead. But don't threaten our precious concept of Salvation - Ephesians and all - it is a free undeserved gift.

    This would be funny to me if it was not so sad. Nobody is saying that one can work to earn Salvation - nevertheless where is the worker in the field? "Who will go for us" was the question from the throne. Be careful worker, many will try to put false labels upon you calling you all sorts of nasty names like "A Knower" - so thank you to those who would call me a Gnostic - that really makes me laugh.

    For the Holy Spirit thru St. Paul so adeptly wrote thru Her Wisdom - Rom_10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

    Gee, I wonder why the Holy Spirit would feel compelled to issue that statement? Especially when the Proverbs and so many other places command that we gain Knowledge of God. In fact in the great book of Hosea [Salvation] we find:

    Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

    Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

    Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

    Pro 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

    Pro 1:7 The reverence of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.


    Yes, the flesh does lead to death. Thank you for finally coming to the Light. But the allegorical light of the Spirit which is couched in the Fleshly things leads to Life.

    I suppose I shall do it again: Christ JESUS and Jesus CHRIST are two terms which do not mean the same thing in terms of usage by the latter day writers. St. Paul is very clear but who can see? These two show that Christ condescended into the Flesh [John 1:1] and was put on trial, beaten, and put to death. So look around you today. The Word has been put on trial, portions of been removed [the gambled for his clothes] and eventually killed as the keys of KNOWLEDGE have been removed. The Word has been placed in a rich man's tomb [the Church]. And who can deny this is not the Church system of religion which holds the Word entombed? Look at all the fancy robes and the ornate buildings. Entombed is a kind way of saying it.

    And yet the truth remains concealed all along and men go to and fro with their vain rites and traditions thinking themselves to be holy. Nevertheless when it turns to the Lord the veil will be removed and the Church will be out of a job. I wonder when it turns to the Lord who will issue forth to DO THE WORK? They had best have thick skin because many in their blindness will call names and throw stones.

    For when it turns to the Lord, then the entombed Word shall resurrect to life which is to say Jesus CHRIST.

    Furthermore, I would be careful about the use of the term disdain others. Jesus Himself had his closed society. There are many things that cannot be discussed candidly. Not to call names, that is not the point, but to point out that not all matters can be discussed openly. The Bible is very clear on this matter. For those who eat at "strong meat" are not to do so in front of their brethren still sipping on the milk nipple. I can see however how a "pew sitter" might feel disdain from another who refused to allow him to come to their "assembly".

    For instance St. Paul desired greatly to discuss Melchizedok and the two Cheribim, but declaring that the "milk sippers" were not ready for such strong meat. What is new under the sun?


    Nevertheless, pride is a terrible aspect of our carnal existence. So let me set the record straight. I left salvation about one hundred miles ago. Pressing on past that now there are other things to KNOW and there are other WORKS to do. Sitting at the feet of my Mother [Proverbs 31] in submission to the Holy Spirit - for she commanded his servants saying do as He says- John 2.

    What a privilege to be useful to the King - Amen. If I place my trust in you, then I freely subject myself to your rule. The only logical question left is what would you have me to do? Upon what estate should I occupy? Therefore Jesus taught us how to open up the gate of communication with God - TO DAY - and yet in ignorance the world remains WILLINGLY blind awaiting their destruction.

    I can't find anywhere where Jesus promoted religion. His gospel was "The Kingdom of God is at hand".

    Some prefer the "Love Letter" and others seek diligently after the "face to face embrace".

    Desolation Row


    Shalom,
    MJ
    Last edited by Michael Joseph; 04-07-15 at 02:17 AM.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Joseph View Post
    ...

    Yes, the flesh does lead to death. Thank you for finally coming to the Light.
    You misquote... I never said that.

    I said "the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge (gnosis) of Good and Evil" causes death, just as Gen 2:17 says.

    Gnostics believe the physical flesh is evil, which is just the opposite of what the Creator says in Gen 1:31,
    "And God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good."
    Satan is the author of the "flesh is evil" and "sex is shameful" constructs, which cause separation of man from himself and his mate (the attack on marriage).

    Satan is also the author of the "man is gullible" (intellectually shameful) construct, which causes separation of man from his Creator (the attack on religion).

    Don't confuse pure religion (Js 1:27) with perverted religion (pantheism, gnosticism, mysticism, syncretism, existentialism, syncretism, etc.).

    Satan has succeeded in destroying the original intent and meaning of both of these words, religion and marriage. That campaign started in Eden, as should be obvious.

    Christ promoted the religion of the Will of God, as depicted by the Seven Annual Holydays, which He observed during His lifetime.

    The "Lord's Prayer" is modeled after these SEVEN BIG MILESTONE EVENTS that bring the Kingdom of God to earth.

    When Holyday 2 occurs, it will provide the most stunning "Non-Christian Historical Evidence for the Existence of Jesus"!
    Last edited by doug555; 04-07-15 at 11:04 PM.

  3. #43
    A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

    Reasons to Believe

  4. #44
    The five husbands of the Samaritan woman are explained at 2 Kings 17:29-33. How can you have five senses as your husband but yet "know not what ye worship"? "Ye" is plural.

    Five People, Five Gods
    When the original inhabitants of Samaria were exiled from their land by Shalmaneser, the Assyrian king, sent people from five different places in Babylon, each group with its own god, to inhabit the land of Samaria. The Jews who were left in Samaria intermarried with these people and incorporated the worship of their gods into the worship of Jehovah. While they continued to claim that they feared and worshipped the Lord — Jehovah, and convinced themselves that they did, they became base idolaters and forsook the worship of God altogether. Read 2 Kings 17:29-33.

    {Can you imagine someone worshiping the "moon principle" and the "sun principle" but rejecting God as a an intelligent being altogether?}

    “Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt. And the men of Babylon made Succothbenoth[1], and the men of Cuth made Nergal,[2] and the men of Hamath made Ashima,[3] And the Avites made Nibhaz and Tartak,[4] and the Sepharvites burnt their children in fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech, the gods of Sepharvaim.[5] So they feared the LORD, and made unto themselves of the lowest of them priests of the high places, which sacrificed for them in the houses of the high places. They feared the LORD, and served their own gods, after the manner of the nations whom they carried away from thence.”

    These five gods (Nibhaz and Tartak as a conglomerate and Adrammelech and Anammelech as a conglomerate), like the five husbands this Samaritan woman had had, were all false gods of whoredom. As those men were not this woman’s husbands, (They took everything from her and gave her nothing!), so the gods of the heathen were not God and were not husbands to her needy soul. But He who was her Husband, the Lord Jesus Who had espoused her to Himself from eternity had come “to take the names of Balaam out of her mouth” and to teach her to call Him alone “My Husband” (Hosea 2:16-17). O may He do that for you!

    =After a while, the southern tribes of the nation, Judah, were taken captive and carried away into Babylon for seventy years. But they never lost their distinct identity as Jews, and stoutly refused to worship the gods of Babylon.
    • Succothbenoth - meant booths of daughters or prostitutes.
    • Nergal - means 'dunghill cock' (symbol of a hero worshipped) or meant "hero" -- one of the chief Assyrian and Babylonian deities, seems to have corresponded closely to the classical Mars. ( 2 Kings 17:30 ) It is conjectured that he may represent the deified Nimrod.
    • Ashima - means crime; offense. (Hindu/Sanskrit - Without borders; Limitless).Also may refer to a particular river. was the god of Hamath, worshipped under the image of an ape or a goat with no fur.
    • Nibhaz was a dog, representing a demon. Tartak was a jackass, representing the prince of darkness. Both were probably made of gold.
    • Adrammelech was the sun god, in the form of a man. Anammelech was the moon god with the representation of a woman. They were images of Molech, to whom men and women offered their own children as sacrifices in fire.


    None of those words had any specific relation to worship of the five senses. The five husbands = five senses is without foundation.

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    St. John's Gospel Described and Explained Volume 2 by Christoph Ernst Luthardt - Page 63
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    Discourses and Sayings of Our Lord Jesus Christ by John Brown - Page 70 footnote.
    The five husbands was a reference to idol worship. The sixth husband was reference to the Samaritans not having properly been 'evangelized' into Israel. The Samaritans were known for claiming to be Jews while not being so. The Gnostic claiming "five husbands" = "five senses" is baseless. Husband is a word that refers to one who protects an asset or assets. The Temple was still standing at the time.

    Simon {Magus} was the Samaritan sorcerer who professed conversion to Christianity and sought to buy an apostleship. The Bible records this historic event in Acts 8:9-24.
    ...
    There are veiled references to Simon's false Christianity and similar heretical sects in the New Testament. Jude 4, for example, is rather pointed against Simon's principal doctrine—the heresy that one does not have to obey God's laws after conversion. John, the apostle who completed the Bible, placed great emphasis on Christians keeping God's commandments (I John 2:3-6).

    John's phrase about those "who say they are Jews, and are not, but lie" (Revelation 3:9) may have its first-century basis in Simon's Samaritan counterfeit of true Christianity. Josephus, a Jewish historian of the first century, mentions that Samaritans would falsely claim to be Jews when they thought it was to their advantage to do so (Antiquities of the Jews, 9.14.3; 9.8.6). (Source)
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    In the early portion his Book VI of the Refutation of All Heresies, Hippolytus deals with the reported writings of Simon from a book called Megale Apophasis, or the Great Announcement.[14] Using Justin as his source, Hippolytus states that Simon was from the village of Gitta in Samaria. However, unlike in Irenaeus, Simon is characterized by Hippolytus as trying to explain the mysteries of the law of Moses, and incorporating them into his own doctrines.

    According to Hippolytus, Simon claims to have appeared to the Jews “in Judea as ‘Son,’ and in Samaria as ‘Father,’ and among the rest of the Gentiles as ‘Holy Spirit.”[17] Simon was claiming to be the Father, the one true God. (Source)
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    Last edited by allodial; 04-09-15 at 08:10 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  5. #45
    The management of all franchised religion can be only as great as the product. its selling ?and what is it one must buy in-order to receive a gift. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool,First things first perfectly plain


    Because you being a man make yourself God and he replied
    isn't it written in your law I have said you are God's
    he's quoting a legal or lawful
    psalm
    is it not written in your law I have said
    you are God's if God call them those to whom he gave his word
    god's and you can't deny the Scriptures how can you say I blaspheme
    because I said I am
    A Son of God. Well that's it in a nutshell
    King James Bible descended with A or THE angel of God
    in italics in front of
    these words the Son of God because I said I am
    the Son of God and most people think that the italics
    for emphasis they're not,, the italics indicate words interpolated by the
    translators where the angel left it up to translators
    you will not find that in the Greek
    the Greek says a son of God so it seems to me here perfectly plain
    that Jesus is know bodies fool or messiah or salvation you are your own
    Christ got it in the back of his mind that this isn't something
    peculiar to himself so when he says
    I am the way no man comes to the Father but by me
    this I am this me. ME being you thats the class forget all the teachers its the divine in us and lets be tight on this each Man has just as much fool in him as he has Christ in him
    which in hebrew would be called
    the Ruach, Spirit of God. In a living creature (nephesh chayah), the ruach is the breath that God brezzed into adam that is what makes man the creature divine or having now the nature of or sons of God the nephesh

    spirit of God Christ full house ask a theologian what's the difference between spirit and the soul

    but it's very clear in some with St Paul's writings so the point is that they Ruach
    is the divine in the creature
    by virtue we are sons of God
    or of the nature of God manifestations that the divine
    that is the good news So the bad news is there isn't any if u keep a spirit with God and control your carnal soul we all are governed from within if Christ was a fool u will find Know better fool finding a bigger fool takes less teaching and no greater moral thought. Every one has a moral compass or they need directions God had know intentions of breathing life into a Bible And Christ was only knocking the wind out of it. When truth ruins a dream stop telling it or dreaming that you told it. All honest answers can only be sought only the foolish will answer and yet think it wise.Reasons to believe are individual and with Christ he had his reasons if for only one reason believe in ones self work it out with what he hasn't said.I took the cohesive route to be understood not herd .

  6. #46
    Who better to exploit Judea but Judea and yet its facilitating a Hebrew homecoming for every sage mystic globalist {$atanic} kabbilistic Talmudic odds maker one might never need a devil when u cant feed your family honest thoughts Being Hebrew has a greater sense than that of wonder its knowing the books are about people and mistakes books make just as many as people who writes and who wrongs.Good examples and reference studies yet finding cooties and having them after the cure is the worst part.

  7. #47
    The pop culture view of Christianity is mainly supported by the "poster boy" of something other than the original, pure doctrines and its followers. There are a few on the planet who have remained close to the original teachings. Its interesting for a heretical Gnostic to contort the original teachings, then hate the result but yet still blame God or Jesus or the believers for something they aren't even a part of and didn't conjure up. Sounds like a PSYOPS/warfare tactic. Who would figure that the pop idea of "original sin" and "uber guilt trip" could have come from heretical Gnostics (but yet they try to blame true believers for that!)?

    Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Galatians 4:1-7
    God reveals many things to his own. "Like father like son" is an old saying that just might have a lot of truth to it. A son tends to inherit traits of his father. Almost goes without saying. But a son might need tutors and governors until he is wise, intelligent, mature and stable enough--until the time appointed. A shady tutor or trustee might attempt to unnecessarily extend a son or daughter's probation period--its not the father's or the son's or daughter's fault. Perhaps the disobedient tutors and trustees are to blame?

    I am convinced of it to be a great error to think of land and sky as the only aspects of such inheritance. For, the character, powers, abilities, skills, creative tendencies that a son or daughter inherit from the Father are just as much as part of the inheritance or kingdom too--if not the most significance aspects. A father teaches his daughters and sons how to come into their inheritance rightly and solidly. The carnally-minded are so obsessed with physical land and territory (outer or external obsessions). But their obsession reveals them for who, what or where they are.

    The historical record seems to show that heretical Gnostics have been the ones who have set out conceal the truth, to block the way and adversely affect the lives and destinies of the heirs as if to thwart their receiving adequate training from the Father.
    Last edited by allodial; 04-09-15 at 08:12 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  8. #48
    Well said and for the wealth of the newest kingdom Judea came from God,s grace not the temples financial wealth that's been plundered twice was its only bankruptcy financial or a bankrupted truth . The Kingships in Sol then David and Solomon was possible because of Gold or God. Kings placed the Trust in the temple and people the trust in the kings. who now may i trust?

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