The Year

[doug555]

Wednesday or Thursday
This is about an event that occurred over two thousand years ago not five days ago and with heaps of attempts to modify, manipulate and explain away the facts. Not to mention leap years and calendar modifications. The discrepancy and variance of the crucifixion being Wednesday or Thursday or even Tuesday or Wednesday is because the Hebrew calendar is evening to evening rather than midnight to midnight and computer programs that "shifted" Passover start days without good reason. Evening to evening days on the Hebrew calendar corresponds to halfs of two separate days in the Roman/Gregorian calendar. See above. (Also where one might say 3790 another puts 3791.)

Clearly, having the importance of precision at heart, see above. Fortunately you now have lots of reference materials from which to glean insight. So getting to the nitty gritty, we could conceivably narrow down to a Wednesday crucifixion rather than a Wednesday or Thursday crucifixion with the prospect of a Saturday resurrection.



See above its Wednesday or Thursday. Its not really about "how I" do this or that. Its about facts which I am unaware of inventing. Keep in mind that nowhere along this thread am I selling books or promoting my own theories. A better question might be how do you come to the conclusion of the resurrection not having been on Saturday or not on the Sabbath? Afterall, you seem to be asserting that the resurrection not being on a Sabbath being key to your viewpoints then seem to want to question me for seeming to agree with you.



Perhaps see above. There is a Wednesday Passover camp and a Thursday Passover camp. Thursday seems to be based on software-introduced errors. So basing on September 16 Day of Trumpets without postponements: Wednesday seems to be it.

Great! The calendars you posted illustrate the discrepancy perfectly! Thanks for posting these!!

It clearly shows the Thursday crucifixion camp as being one day late, BECAUSE they start "Passover" on the 15th, which is in clear violation of the instructions in Exodus 12 which states the Passover begins "at twilight" (between the two evenings) on the evening of the 14th, which is the period of time between the sunset that ends the day portion of the 13th and the dark of night of the 14th.


I do know that the Biblical days start at sunset, as Genesis defines a day as "evening and morning" as in Gen 1:5 where it says "And there was evening and morning, one day".

So at Wednesday sunset Jesus was in tomb, since He and that camp kept Nisan 14 as Passover.

So, being in the earth/tomb exactly 3 days (3 nights and 3 days) from there leaves us at Saturday sunset.

So Jesus rose at the sunset that ended the day portion of Saturday. The sunset that begins Sunday per "evening and morning" definition.

These are FACTS. Simple math. Not theories.

And why is this so important to know and keep the exact right day?

Because Jesus commands us to observe that exact day (which starts with His newly-instituted Passover evening ceremony) in remembrance of Him (Lk 22:19; 1Cor 11:23-26).

And because of the LAW and TYPE set in Exodus 12, which Christ fulfilled by keeping the 14th.

If the Israelites back then had been one day late, all of their firstborn would have been killed too.

So, then, what will happen to us, as the spiritual "firstborn", if we are one day late in keeping the Exodus Passover of the 14th?

Notice that there is no reference in Exodus 12 to keep a day that corresponds to the Resurrection during the 7-day Feast period -- only to the Passover day (14th).

Neither is there any holyday established in the New Testament to keep the Resurrection day, Sunday.

Where did this shift in focus from the Passover Day to the Resurrection Day come from?

Is it not from the same source that shifted the observance of the Sabbath from Saturday (7th day) to Sunday (1st day)?

So, my conclusion is really in agreement with you now.

The Passover "evening and morning" in 30 A.D. was on Wednesday, Nisan 14.

Jesus Christ kept the Passover service on the evening portion of the 14th, at twilight.

Then, during the daylight (morning) portion of the 14th, at the 9th hour (3pm), Jesus died from the crucifixion.

It had to be Wednesday because one cannot fit in "3 days and 3 nights in the earth/tomb" (Mt 12:40) if it was Thursday, since the tomb was empty BEFORE sunrise on Sunday (Mt 28:1).

BTW: I am not selling anything either, including theories.

I believe that both of us are sincerely trying to discover and share the truth, and I am very grateful for your contributions and the time you have taken, especially in providing these calendars and links. It makes it much clearer for me to see this issue in diagram form.

Please don't mistake my zeal as argument. These issues that we are discussing here are very important "matters of consequence", IMO.

I respect your personal beliefs, and apologize for any "arguing" that is being felt and that I am projecting.

And I sincerely thank you for your insightful and factual contributions. They have truly helped me and do encourage me.

[doug555]

Now... to get back to the original issue that BLBereans raised, about the "Resurrection Day" fulfilling Holyday 2:

The Resurrection Day, as it turns out, using the calendar at the top of allodial's post #post17600, actually did occur on a Biblical Sunday, at the sunset that ended that Saturday in 30 A.D., Nisan 17/April 6, and began that next day, Sunday.

However, this Sunday Resurrection event, that occurred on Day 5 (Sunday, Nisan 18/April 7) of the Exodus Passover period starting on Nisan 14, still does not answer question at the end of #post17852:

I see no Scriptures indicating that Holyday 2 (Day 7) would be fulfilled on Day 5.

Do you?

So, then, it remains that Holyday 2 is yet to be fulfilled, and, therefore, consequently, so is Holyday 3 yet a future event.

And that is the point of this topic: The Favorable Year of the Lord is YET TO OCCUR.

[BLBereans]

Perhaps your argument that Day 7 of unleavened bread is a High Holy, or Feast, Day is incorrect:

Numbers 28 - The Passover

16 On the fourteenth day of the first month the Lord’s Passover is to be held.
17 On the fifteenth day of this month there is to be a festival; for seven days eat bread made without yeast.
18 On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.

25 On the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.

Perhaps the first day indicated is the only "Feast Day" during the seven day period. There are Sabbath days and High Sabbath (High Holy or Feast) days. Perhaps the latter is only a Sabbath day.

That would mean the first day of unleavened bread is Holy Day 1 (Day after Jesus' death/sacrifice)

The Feast of First Fruits is Holy Day 2 (Day that Jesus rose from the dead)

The Feast of Weeks/Pentecost is Holy Day 3 (event of Acts 2 - 50 days after resurrection )

These are all significant events which have coinciding and symbolic relationships to OT events and prophecy.

[doug555]

Yes, I see your point...

Num 28:17 corresponds exactly to Lev 23:6.

Both say unleavened bread is eaten for 7 days. Both say it is the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

But notice that is does NOT say "the 15th is the first day of the feast of unleavened bread".

Then we also see that Lev 23:6 and 7 both use the term "holy convocation" to set Day 1 and Day 7 apart from the other 5 Feast Days.

So, if one is a holyday (Day 1), then the other must be too (Day 7).

Now, notice that all seven days are Feast Days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

The 14th is the Feast of of Unleavened Bread (and also is a "holy convocation" day, Holyday 1).
The 15th is the Feast of of Unleavened Bread.
But the 16th is also the Feast of of Unleavened Bread.
So is the 17th, 18th, 19th and the 20th (which also is a "holy convocation" day, Holyday 2).

Notice that the seven days of unleavened bread continues from the 14th until the 21st day, according to Ex 12:18 (not according "my argument").

18 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening.

Notice that the word "until" here must mean "not including", just as it also does in Ex 12:6.

6 'You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight.

This "interpretation" resolves the apparent contradiction in the Scriptures, for me, that seems to indicate that the 15th is the first day of unleavened bread in Lev 23:6 and Num 28:17, which would only account for 6 days of unleavened bread that must end at the start/evening of the 21st day of Nisan, and so not including the 21st.

But you are right about the Resurrection Day being significant. It is celebrated in the OT on what is called the "Wave Sheaf Offering" day (Lev 23:11), which is performed on "the morrow after the Sabbath", which is Sunday.

This coincides exactly with the literal day, Sunday, Nisan 18/April 7, Day 5 of the Feast, on which Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, and was presented to the Father in heaven for formal acceptance and recognition of His sacrifice and becoming the First of the Firstfruits.

But again, Day 5, the Wave Sheaf Day, symbolizing the Resurrection and Acceptance in Heaven event (Jn 20:1, 1) is NOT Day 7, the "Holy Convocation" Day, Holyday 2.

We cannot force the Wave Sheaf Day 5 to be the same as the Last Day of Unleavened Bread Day 7.

These are 2 separate days, indicating 2 separate events that are very significant.

So thank you for forcing me to delve into this more thoroughly. I genuinely appreciate your viewpoints and concerns to not miss the significance of the Lord's Resurrection.

Let's keep at this... I do not want to be brainwashing myself anymore than you would want to brainwash yourself.

I want the truth... and Jesus promised we can know it in Jn 16:13.

13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

[BLBereans]

Perhaps it is two (2) '72 hour right of refusal' periods taking place:

The first 72 hours were for God to accept the value of the sacrifice and the last 72 hours were for Satan to reject the paid ransom.

If Jesus was in the tomb by sunset Wednesday night, then his resurrection would be sunset Saturday night (72 hours and God approves)

Counting further; 72 hours more puts us at the last day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Day 7 (72 hours and Satan cannot rightfully reject)

The 7th Day is the SETTLEMENT Day where the 'payment of debt' was FINALIZED and stands forever as a DONE DEAL.

If that is the case, then that would be your 'desert miracle'; the dryness of man's soul and spirit becomes 'an oasis of righteousness' through the redemptive work of Christ.

That would put the event of Acts 2 as the actual 'Pentecost' where the Holy Spirit descends, indwells and empowers those believers with abilities never before done, known or seen.

[allodial]

Before the sacrifice, the Pesach lambs are selected. Which means they are looked over/inspected for suitability. So it would make sense to include that period offer and acceptance period. Once they chose him to be stoned or crucified....

A while back I did an analysis of the 7 day week, and gained a reasonable insight into how it could be constructed of a two seventy-two hour periods plus a day. I considered Daniel's -> a time, times and an half on the basis of 1 day being 'a time' + 2 days being 'times' + 1/2 a day being 'an half' => 3 + 1/2 x 2 = 7 days or (7 times total) gives a full week. Two 72 hour periods with a 1 day buffer in between makes for a full week. So its interesting to consider a week as consisting of two 72-hour periods + two half-days.

It might also be worth considering the number of days from the resurrection to Pentecost. Something like Ascension occurring 40 days (thirteen 72-hour periods) after resurrection and the enduing with power 9 days (three 72-hour periods) after the ascension--that would be 49 days or 7 x 7 (seven weeks).

Jubilee is key.



As to acceptance and such, the process of creation seems to entail first coming to specifics about what is to be created (specifications, blueprints, functional design, etc.). So once that is agreed upon then creation can be begin. But it takes FAITH as substance to bring the conceptual forth into physical manifestation. After the manifestation thereof, then inspection...acceptance. If something doesn't come out right, we tend to scrap it and start over. Judgment seems to be associated with scrapping/destruction of the errant product. Salvation seems to be associated with approval of the product. All creation process have a harvest type. Babies have a 9 month period from planting to 'harvest'. (see Luke 1:23-38) Jesus wasn't identified as the called-for Messiah until a certain point.

It is said that Jesus was presented as the lamb on Nissan 10 (30AD) (Luke 20:1 – 22:6) with entry on the foal on Nissan 10 and that on Nissan 11 he was presented as Messiah Priest. Three days later would be Nissan 14. Three days dead/entombed through to Nissan 17.

One key thing is that the Pharisees would have had to have known who he is (likewise the Romans).

[allodial]

The rule is that if the previous day is a Sabbath then the counting and cutting of the first fruits is on the Sunday following. That keeps it within the requirement--the preceding Sabbath allows for an exception. Resurrection could have occurred between 3pm and sunset Saturday.

Nisan 17:
* Saturday evening - Cutting and counting of first fruits (Sadducees and Pharisees)
* Sunday morning - waiving of the sheaf; tomb visitations; post-resurrection appearances of Jesus

Since the previous day was a Sabbath, the cutting and counting of the first fruits would have been done on Nisan 17 (being Saturday evening through Sunday evening). I find it best to think in terms of evening to evening and THEN translate that into "Roman days".

[doug555]

Yes, I see your point...

Num 28:17 corresponds exactly to Lev 23:6.

Both say unleavened bread is eaten for 7 days. Both say it is the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

But notice that is does NOT say "the 15th is the first day of the feast of unleavened bread".

Then we also see that Lev 23:6 and 7 both use the term "holy convocation" to set Day 1 and Day 7 apart from the other 5 Feast Days.

So, if one is a holyday (Day 1), then the other must be too (Day 7).

Now, notice that all seven days are Feast Days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

The 14th is the Feast of of Unleavened Bread (and also is a "holy convocation" day, Holyday 1).
The 15th is the Feast of of Unleavened Bread.
But the 16th is also the Feast of of Unleavened Bread.
So is the 17th, 18th, 19th and the 20th (which also is a "holy convocation" day, Holyday 2).

Notice that the seven days of unleavened bread continues from the 14th until the 21st day, according to Ex 12:18 (not according "my argument").



Notice that the word "until" here must mean "not including", just as it also does in Ex 12:6.



This "interpretation" resolves the apparent contradiction in the Scriptures, for me, that seems to indicate that the 15th is the first day of unleavened bread in Lev 23:6 and Num 28:17, which would only account for 6 days of unleavened bread that must end at the start/evening of the 21st day of Nisan, and so not including the 21st.

But you are right about the Resurrection Day being significant. It is celebrated in the OT on what is called the "Wave Sheaf Offering" day (Lev 23:11), which is performed on "the morrow after the Sabbath", which is Sunday.

This coincides exactly with the literal day, Sunday, Nisan 18/April 7, Day 5 of the Feast, on which Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, and was presented to the Father in heaven for formal acceptance and recognition of His sacrifice and becoming the First of the Firstfruits.

But again, Day 5, the Wave Sheaf Day, symbolizing the Resurrection and Acceptance in Heaven event (Jn 20:1, 1) is NOT Day 7, the "Holy Convocation" Day, Holyday 2.

We cannot force the Wave Sheaf Day 5 to be the same as the Last Day of Unleavened Bread Day 7.

These are 2 separate days, indicating 2 separate events that are very significant.

So thank you for forcing me to delve into this more thoroughly. I genuinely appreciate your viewpoints and concerns to not miss the significance of the Lord's Resurrection.

Let's keep at this... I do not want to be brainwashing myself anymore than you would want to brainwash yourself.

I want the truth... and Jesus promised we can know it in Jn 16:13.

CORRECTION TO ABOVE:

The above is true only if the year 30 A.D. is used as the basis or TYPE for the fulfillment of the remaining holydays.

There is no Scripture that I know of that declares that to be the case.

In actuality, since the New Moon can happen on any of the Gregorian weekdays, then it follows that the 7th Day of UB could likewise happen on any weekday.

So, when the 14th occurs on a Monday, making the weekly Sabbath the 6th day, then the Wave Sheaf can be waved on the very next day which is Sunday, which does occur on the 7th day of UB.

So, the Wave Sheaf can coincide with the 7th day of UB. It just did NOT coincide in the year 30 A.D. when Jesus Christ died.

Sorry for any confusion...

But since most of the time it does NOT coincide with the 7th day, there is still probable cause to believe that the Wave Sheaf Day and Holyday 2 are two separate events.

[allodial]

Would it not ring true that the waiving or cutting would never be on the Sabbath although the wheat would still continue to grow all day, all week?

[doug555]

Would it not ring true that the waiving or cutting would never be on the Sabbath although the wheat would still continue to grow all day, all week?

Yes, it does. Thanks for that!

Also, I am thinking that the Creator purposely wants the count to Pentecost (50) to always begin on a Sunday in order to reinforce the concept and message of 3 complete literal historical weeks of Days 1 -7 that will be fulfilled, as encouragement that a literal historical 50th Day Pentecost Jubilee will also be fulfilled literally on a Sunday sometime in the future.


Sorry.. I should have clarified my last sentence in previous post. See correction in underline below:

But since most of the time it does NOT coincide with the 7th day, there is still probable cause to believe that the Wave Sheaf Day and Holyday 2 are two separate events.

Also, it is encouraging to know that 2 literal events did occur in 30 A.D. (the Passover and the Wave Sheaf), which then gives us probably cause from 2 witnesses that Holyday 2, as a subsequent and 3rd separate event, will also be a literal historical event.