Abraham & Sarah Never Happened?

[David Merrill]

I want this tied back to the guilt trip - Abraham being real or not - that would bring him to the edge of killing Isaac on the Temple Mount (before construction), Mount Moriah. That this was happening at puberty for Isaac brings the Key into focus. This whole deal about sacrifice is upon guilt. In the Bible, because Abraham was half-siblings with Sarah.

[xparte]

‘I am born in a state of innocence, and therefore I can be as guilty as I like. Mans denial of sin ranges from naïve ideas about our history and horrible things people are really capable of doing to themselves and others [he seemed like such a nice Man] to the rather nonchalant acceptance of whatever it is that people want to do. The confusion of thought is evident in the way guilt or innocence is assumed though not defined. Having contradictory guilt with terms like sophistication emotion and irrationality are the trinity of sin. How to avoid it or manage it [Guilt] whats Original Sin without the fall Man/Wo not just the garden variety grown from seeds. But replaced with the prick was just born evil we must explain how are mind works Total Depravity without any Fall how [cant] we explain it. Purity needs to be completely pure little purity does not go very far moral purity Guilt can afford to be dirty, but its the seduction that has to be clean. No sin - no need for a savior. No sin - no need for Christ. The original sin was Satan's: NON SERVIAM. latin its all in the the service .

[george]

Dan Winter:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/KjDwZNbaic4

inspiring

[allodial]

People who attribute being to a God outside themselves reconcile the books with - God works in mysterious ways. - Just as they appraise the church building to be whatever value will balance the books that month, together in their Corporate PERSON 501(c)(3) - President, Secretary, Treasurer and... forming that artificial entity. They call it double-entry.

So Jesus felt so betrayed, having come so close to fulfilling the Last Prophecy. He had it worked out, he thought, with Judas. The Worthless Shepherd Prophecy of Zechariah clearly dictated that Judas was to go buy an expensive sword and return to the Last Supper and execute the new King with it; ending the role of Messiah ben Joseph. According to the Prophecy Jesus would arise in three days and fulfill execution of the second part - Messiah ben David. [Note that link is from Page 137 of the book - the number of the Qaballah - KOPH BETH LAMED HEY = 137.]

I was taught that the Wortheless Shepherd prophecies pointed to the fact that Pharisees, etc. would reject Jesus (name basically means means 'savior') and in turn would turn to or get a "worthless shepherd" which to knowledge led them to Bar Kokhba revolt (Maccabean): a leader that made thousands cut off their fingers of their right hand etc., and led them to destruction and judgement with Rome being used as instrument of such judgment. The worthless shepherd prophecy was fulfilled to the 't' after they rejected Jesus.

The Expositor's Bible Commentary gives some insight although their commentary still holds on to some vestiges of yet-to-be-futurism. There are many "midrashim" about Simeon bar Kochba/Kohkba, here is one:

Midrash Rabbah Lamentations 2.2 4
For three and a half years the emperor Hadrian surrounded Bethar. In the city was rabbi Eleazar of Mode'in [5], who continually wore sackcloth and fasted, and used to pray daily: 'Lord of the universe, sit not in judgment today!' so that Hadrian thought of returning home [6].

A Cuthean [7] went [to the emperor] and found him and said: 'My lord, so long as that old cock wallows in ashes, you will not conquer the city. But wait for me, because I will do something that will enable you to subdue it to-day.'

He immediately entered the gate of the city, where he found rabbi Eleazar standing and praying. He pretended to whisper in the ear of rabbi Eleazar of Mode'in. People went and informed Bar Kozeba: 'Your friend, rabbi Eleazar, wishes to surrender the city to Hadrian.'

He sent and had the Cuthean brought to him and asked: 'What did you say to him?'

He replied: 'If I tell you, the emperor will kill me; and if I do not tell you, you will kill me. It is better that I should kill myself and the secrets of the government be not divulged.'

Bar Kozeba was convinced that rabbi Eleazar wanted to surrender the city, so when the latter finished his praying, he had him brought into his presence and asked him: 'What did the Cuthean tell you?'

He answered: 'I do not know what he whispered in my ear, nor did I hear anything, because I was standing in prayer and am unaware what he said.'

{Simeon} Bar Kozeba flew into a rage, kicked him with his foot and killed him. A heavenly voice issued forth and proclaimed: 'Woe to the worthless shepherd that leaveth the flock! The sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right arm!'[8]

It was intimated to him, 'Thou hast paralyzed the arm of Israel and blinded their right eye; therefore shall thy arm wither and thy right arm grow dim!'

Forthwith the sins [of the people] caused Bethar to be captured. {Simeon} Bar Kozeba was slain and his head taken to Hadrian. He asked: 'Who killed him?'

A Cuthean said to him: 'I killed him.'

'Bring his body to me,' he ordered.

He went and and found a snake encircling its neck. So Hadrian, when told of this, exclaimed: 'If his God had not slain him, who could have overcome him?' [9]

And there was applied to him the verse: Except their rock had given them over.[10]

Also, from the Palestine Talmud (,Ta'anit 4.5):

Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai taught: 'Aqiba, my master, used to interpret a star goes forth from Jacob [1] as 'Kozeba goes forth from Jacob'. Rabbi Aqiba, when he saw {Simeon} Bar Kozeba, said: 'This is the king Messiah!' Rabbi Johanan ben Torta said to him: 'Aqiba! Grass will grow on your cheeks and still the son of David does not come!'

Bar Kokba is said to have tested the valor of his soldiers by ordering each one to cut off a finger; and when the wise men beheld this, they objected to the self-mutilation involved, and advised him to issue an order to the effect that every horseman must show that he could tear a cedar of the Lebanon up by the roots while riding at full speed. In this way he eventually had 200,000 soldiers who passed the first ordeal, and 200,000 heroes who accomplished the latter feat (Yer. Ta'anit iv. 68d). It must have been during the war, when he had already performed miracles of valor, that R. Akiba said of him, "This is the King Messiah" (ib.); but he had the presumption—so runs the legend—to pray to God: "We pray Thee, do not give assistance to the enemy; us Thou needst not help!" (ib.; Lam. R. ii. 2; Gi?. 57a et seq.; Yal?., Deut. 946); and it was inevitable that many persons, among them his uncle R. Eleazar of Modi'im, should disbelieve in his Messianic mission. Source: jewishencyclopedia.com

The picture being painted is that Simeon bar Kochba it seems fulfilled the Worthless Shepherd prophecy. There is related book entitled Jewish Identity and Politics Between the Maccabees and Bar Kokhba by one Benedikt Eckhardt. However, there is a rather plausible notion of "the Worthless Shepherd" being composed of or alluding to each and every one the unreliable 'leaders' substituted for Jesus.

The Worthless Shepherd Prophecy brings Jeremiah 17:5 to mind:

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man {geber} that trusteth in man {adam}, and maketh flesh his arm {zerowa}, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. {Note the word 'and' rather than 'or'--three-fold conditions.}

From Jeremiah I also glean that reliance upon mundane political or military forces or could not have been part of the fulfillment of messianic prophecies since the word for arm also means: "forces (political and military)". In view of Jeremiah 17:5, likelihood of Jesus then having been intending to stage a secular coup d'etat is greatly diminished. One might also consider, also, riding on a donkey (peace) vs. riding on a horse (war) which had very significant meanings then.

One might also consider Habbakuk 1:16 which to knowledge describes the Babylonian practice of "worshipping one's net":

Therefore they sacrifice unto their net, and burn incense unto their drag; because by them their portion is fat, and their meat plenteous. Habbakuk 1:16.

I was taught that net here mainly refers to their (Babylon's) military might or their of coercive force. The Hebrews, of course, would lack that kind of characteristic of worshipping (serving) or attributing their success or prosperity to military power. Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers lucidates:

The prophet has already stated that the Chaldæan deifies his own military prowess. Of this statement the present verse is an expansion. Weapons of war may have been literally worshipped by the Babylonians. Similarly, the Sarmatians offered yearly sacrifices to a sword, as the emblem of their god of war (Clem. Alex. Protrept. 64). The Romans also sacrificed to their eagles. But probably the language is metaphorical, and we need not seek a closer illustration than that of Dr. Pusey,—“So the Times said at the beginning of the late war, 'The French almost worshipped the mitrailleuse as a goddess.' 'They idolised, it would say, their invention, as if it could do what God alone could.'"

The Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary (re: Habakkuk) echoes much the same:

16. sacrifice unto their net—that is, their arms, power, and military skill, wherewith they gained their victories; instead of to God. Compare Hab 1:11, Maurer's interpretation. They idolize themselves for their own cleverness and might (De 8:17; Isa 10:13; 37:24, 25).

by them—by their net and dragnet.

their portion—image from a banquet: the prey which they have gotten.

In contrast to the Babylonians, it would have been most uncharacteristic of ancient Israel or of Hebrews generally to lawfully in God's eyes to worship their own 'net'. Jesus reliance upon secular or mundane military progress is highly diminished in light of the foregoing. The writings of Josephus and others clearly point to the divine and holy.

For further elucidation, earlier on in the Book of Zechariah we find:

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Zechariah 4:6

[xparte]

Judas the first paid informant, The People who attribute being to a God outside themselves reconcile the books with - God works in mysterious ways. A Worthless Shepherd and Secular scapegoats for God . Once your in the service of God. at low cost Guilt afford to be dirty, only its the Secular seduction that has to be clean. Getting rid of peace the no need for a savior. when your looking to war Christ any salvation renders peace render Caesar what's his and its peace. God holds mysterious ways the works part is why he never named any Saints. As prophecy Betrayal is the breaking or violation of a presumptive contract, trust, or confidence that produces moral and psychological conflict within a relationship amongst individuals, between organizations or between individuals and organizations. Often betrayal is the act of supporting a rival group, or it is a complete break from previously decided upon or presumed norms by one party from the others. Someone who betrays others is commonly called a traitor or betrayer. Betrayal is also a commonly used literary element and is often associated with or used as a plot twist. Roman arrest was possible with Pharisee complaint Judas was hired to identify Christ the irony is in Betrayal Christ recognition was no secret to Roman officers and Soldiers His great works and his identity were never mistaken and associated prophecy Pharisees Rejecting Christ IMHumbleO is Rejecting peace as your post has the villains NON SERVIAM

[xparte]

My father had taught me, looking at a bird, he says, "Do you know what that is? It's a Brown-Throated Thrush. But in Portuguese, it's a Hunto La Pero. In Italian, a Chutto La Pittida. In Chinese, it's a Chung Wong Tah." Etcetera. He says, "Now you'd know all the languages you want to know what the name of that bird is, and when you finish with all that," he says, "you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird." He knew the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something. - Richard Feynman

[David Merrill]

I was taught that the Wortheless Shepherd prophecies pointed to the fact that Pharisees, etc. would reject Jesus (name basically means means 'savior') and in turn would turn to or get a "worthless shepherd" which to knowledge led them to Bar Kokhba revolt (Maccabean): a leader that made thousands cut off their fingers of their right hand etc., and led them to destruction and judgement with Rome being used as instrument of such judgment. The worthless shepherd prophecy was fulfilled to the 't' after they rejected Jesus.



The Expositor's Bible Commentary gives some insight although their commentary still holds on to some vestiges of yet-to-be-futurism. There are many "midrashim" about Simeon bar Kochba/Kohkba, here is one:



Also, from the Palestine Talmud (,Ta'anit 4.5):





The picture being painted is that Simeon bar Kochba it seems fulfilled the Worthless Shepherd prophecy. There is related book entitled Jewish Identity and Politics Between the Maccabees and Bar Kokhba by one Benedikt Eckhardt. However, there is a rather plausible notion of "the Worthless Shepherd" being composed of or alluding to each and every one the unreliable 'leaders' substituted for Jesus.

The Worthless Shepherd Prophecy brings Jeremiah 17:5 to mind:



From Jeremiah I also glean that reliance upon mundane political or military forces or could not have been part of the fulfillment of messianic prophecies since the word for arm also means: "forces (political and military)". In view of Jeremiah 17:5, likelihood of Jesus then having been intending to stage a secular coup d'etat is greatly diminished. One might also consider, also, riding on a donkey (peace) vs. riding on a horse (war) which had very significant meanings then.

One might also consider Habbakuk 1:16 which to knowledge describes the Babylonian practice of "worshipping one's net":



I was taught that net here mainly refers to their (Babylon's) military might or their of coercive force. The Hebrews, of course, would lack that kind of characteristic of worshipping (serving) or attributing their success or prosperity to military power. Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers lucidates:



The Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary (re: Habakkuk) echoes much the same:



In contrast to the Babylonians, it would have been most uncharacteristic of ancient Israel or of Hebrews generally to lawfully in God's eyes to worship their own 'net'. Jesus reliance upon secular or mundane military progress is highly diminished in light of the foregoing. The writings of Josephus and others clearly point to the divine and holy.

For further elucidation, earlier on in the Book of Zechariah we find:

Xparte; Thank you! This is why I post - that kind of mindful input!

Allodial; Pragmatism is a radical interpretation and like the euphemism of Abraham and Sarah's incest, I find so much interpretation like you share to be rationale and justification. Thank you for bringing in the Bar Kokhba Revolution in. I had nearly forgotten about that very embarrassing episode in Jewish history.

I think this might be more along my line of thought. But please don't assume I have adopted this as mine.

The Worthless Shepherd.

The Sop.

When forming my impressions about the Last Supper I presumed that Jesus knew how his life and recently his ministry had been fulfilling prophecies from the writings of Israel. Things had taken a turn for Jesus. He had been brought up knowing he was the son of the King, Archelaus HEROD but that he was an embarrassment bastard. Now with John, Archelaus' prophet channeling Elijah crowning him King, Jesus felt that he would be executed by sword and then somehow be resurrected in three days.

This brings a lot of other passages into congruence. Like Peter finding two swords...


I will give your post some time and enjoyment too.

[David Merrill]

It helps with the legal questions around Jesus being King:

[David Merrill]

Upon a little more reading I must admit that The Nazarene Gospel Restored has indeed influenced my Bible interpretation. It was so long ago that I read it, that I had forgotten.

The Coronation.

[allodial]

... Now with John, Archelaus' prophet channeling Elijah crowning him King, Jesus felt that he would be executed by sword and then somehow be resurrected in three days.

What few may realize is that the significance of the Resurrection as pertains to the extent Zoroastrianism that may have influenced the Pharisees. Babylonian religion and ideas had begun to corrupt at the time may have incompatible with the Melchedizek and Hebrew and Mosaic doctrines. That many Israelites had mistaken the doctrine of the Hebrews for secular dabblings was a major problem even in Isaiah's and Jeremiah's time--i.e. they started have the idea of modeling their governance after worldly governments such as Egypt and Babylon (which is why they wound up in Babylonian captivity--conflict of laws). Zoroastrians from what I recall had a shorter time limit on when a body could be resurrected. The 3 days would have proven contrary to Zoroastrian restrictions.

There is a strong body of evidence that the Pharisees (similar word to Farsi the language of Persia) were strongly leaning toward or influenced by Zoroastrianism. If the Bible was trying to conform with what was acceptable to the Flavian (Vespasian--said to have been born 9 years after Jesus) family or to the Pharisees the resurrection would likely have happened in less time. Its been a long time since I researched the Pharisee-Zoroastrianism connection. Consider, the significance of Iran these days: Persia.

Re: Two swords.
There were two cherubim atop the Mercy Seat (the lid of Ark of the Covenant). That seems highly significant to two swords. Furthermore, the significance of two witnesses.

Re: execution by sword.
From what I've gathered, the prophecies spoke of crucifixion or hanging. I would figure even on the secular level he would have expected to be stoned, crucified or hung. Likely, he was well aware that the scepter had departed from Judah so would be handed over to the Romans.

Nonetheless, diverse interpretations are interesting. However, I came to discover a consistent, golden thread permeating all of the Bible works and the Tanach that fails to contradict itself AFAIK. That is, I find it all highly pragmatic: spiritually first and foremost, physically after that--a good and right order.. I've found that most people that have a problem with true saints and believers really have a problem with heretical Gnostic doctrines, Mithraic overlays: and so they might mistake the baby for the bathwater and the Son for the stranger. They mistake the true believers for Simonians, Zoroastrians or Mithraists--due to projection and false impersonation.

I give you the end of a golden string. Only wind it into a ball. It will lead you in at Heaven's gate: built in Jerusalem's wall. --William Blake

Re: Vespasian
In light of Cyrus's significance, Vespasian's prophetic significance was asserted by Josephus.

Josephus had to fight a defensive war against overwhelming force while refereeing internecine squabbles in the Jewish ranks. In 67 C.E. Josephus and other rebels were cornered in a cave during the siege of Jotapata and took a suicide pact. However, Josephus survived, and was taken hostage by the Romans, led by Vespasian.

Josephus shrewdly reinterpreted the Messianic prophecies. He predicted that Vespasian would become the ruler of the 'entire world'. Josephus joined the Romans, for which he was branded a traitor. He acted as consultant to the Romans and a go-between with the revolutionaries. Unable to convince the rebels to surrender, Josephus ended up watching the second destruction of the Temple and the defeat of the Jewish nation.

What Josephus (and many later Rabbinical writers) saw as Vespasian in this:

"...the people of the prince that will come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." Daniel 9:26 in part

Is that not exactly what happened under Vespasian and his son Titus?