Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: Jesus vs Muhammed: Who Truly Follows Who?

  1. #1

    Jesus vs Muhammed: Who Truly Follows Who?

    This thread will be a series of topics taken mostly from the informative web site http://www.answering-islam.org/

    Many discussions are being had and many fallacies are being put forth regarding "radical Islam" as if it is a usurpation of the "real Islam" by those who commit willful violence in the form of beheadings, rapes, tortures, massacres, pillaging, etc. all in the name of Allah.

    Due to the ever increasing acts of terrorism (most recently by members of "ISIS") people try to reconcile what is "true Islam" or what is really "Islamic". Well, how does one come to a true answer?

    Begin with the simple definition of “Islamic.” There are good online definitions. Mine is: “that which conforms to the Quran, imitates Muhammad’s life, and obeys Islam’s laws.”

    However, more detailed criteria are needed to arrive at a confident yes or no answer for “Is ISIS Islamic?”

    We need a standard, an “Islamic measurement standard,” to compare ISIS against, and evaluate if ISIS is aligned with, or contradicts, that standard.

    Muhammad should be the “Islamic measurement standard.” Was there ever a greater Muslim than Muhammad? Is there anyone more worthy for Muslims to imitate? Of course not! Muslims are commanded to imitate Muhammad’s lifestyle and obey Muhammad (Quran 3:132 and 33:21). Muhammad embodied Islam and Muhammad practiced what he preached. Muhammad obeyed his Allah faithfully. Additionally his closest friends and devotees, his “Companions,” those men that knew him best, certainly understood his commands and we can also look to their actions to understand what he had commanded.

    Wouldn’t it then make sense to use Muhammad, and by this I mean his teachings, actions, and doctrine, as our Islamic measurement standard? Wouldn’t it be logical to correlate ISIS’s actions with these and determine if ISIS conforms?

    Muhammad’s teachings, actions, and doctrines are found in the Islamic source materials: the Quran, hadith, and sira. These have been studied and codified as Islamic theology. You could obtain “The Reliance of the Traveller,” in English, if you wish to understand this in some depth.

    If you’re familiar with these Islamic source materials these questions are not difficult to answer. Muhammad’s life and teachings are not only well recorded; they are some of the best documented records of any great religious teacher. There are far more details available about Muhammad’s life than there are about Jesus’s, Moses’s, and Buddha’s.

    Muhammad: can you think of a more strict, more rigorous, more robust Islamic standard for us to use to measure ISIS against?


    source

    Now, compare that to what should be the "Christian measurement standard" for those who claim to follow Christianity - the model of Jesus of Nazareth. In my opinion, the majority of so-called "muslims" do NOT conform to the paradigmatic figure of their declared faith.

    The same can be said for the so-called Christians; most who profess Christianity do not conform to Jesus' Ways, message, doctrines, actions, teachings, etc. The difference is that true Christians realize this and continue to strive in order to emulate the life of Jesus as best they can. For most of us, it is a lifelong endeavor and journey. However, there are institutionalized "Churches" who call themselves Christian yet in NO WAY emulate the teachings, actions, and doctrine of Jesus. Unfortunately, the majority of "Churches" fall into that category albeit with varying levels of shortcomings and/or direct conflicts.

    The Muslims who claim to be "moderate", and the true interpreters of the message of Islam and the Koran, do NOT conform to the teachings, actions, and doctrine of the figure that they claim to be the model of Islam, Muhammed. How can people claim to be the true followers of a certain faith if they deny the teachings, actions, and doctrine of the actual founder, and greatest figure of, said faith? Do moderate muslims renounce Muhammed or do they praise him as the greatest prophet that ever lived?

    Compare that to how Christians view the teachings, actions, and doctrine of Jesus. What kind of Christian would renounce Jesus or deny his teachings, actions, and doctrine?

  2. #2
    Some suggest that Wahhabism is the standard of ISIS--and even go as far as suggesting Obama and the Bushes to be or to have been aligned with such. Even back as far as 2003 and even 1994 I met people from the USA who had the same kind of ideas of rape, pillaging, sodomy and hatred for the saints and they were self-confessed Muslims.

    Re: the saints. Most so-called 'churches' in the USA, I've come to be skeptical about since so many of them seem to be infiltrated with apostasy. Even in one case, someone seeking help --only prayer--had a serious emergency and had been injured after having been attacked went to a congregation meeting place and started explaining to the pastor the pastor only said "Get a job". The person never asked for money, he only asked for prayer for his children. Of course, the pastor put on his "Christian face" when he went back out among the 'sheep'. The real pastors are the ones the cities are trying to drive out and shut down--they are the ones actually doing something to help the poor. The others like the one above, they live in fancy neighborhoods and don't seem to quick to reach out to help others let alone the guy next to them on the pews even if they have surplus of money. The same had given money to the same church for years. But had gotten attacked, robbed. His children were threatened as well. I overheard it, the guy never asked for money--the pastor figuring no one else was around and that the door was mostly shut showed his real face. Had the matter been posed in front of others, they would have touched the organ with some feel good and put on a show.

    Nonetheless, those kinds of shady pastors and their flocks will talk about the devil and lion's dens and spiritual warfare and watch you be persecuted and not lift a finger. In contrast, I consider how responsive a secular military or gang is to the slightest danger posed to any of its soldiers or members. If I had to be in a war with most of the so-called Church-goers I've met assigned to my platoon, I would be like surely you are joking. However, there are a few that I would have on my side.

    On the other hand there might typically a handful of true saints among any given modern congregation. That is, if one observes and prays one would be led to them, if any.

    Related:
    Last edited by allodial; 11-22-15 at 04:42 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    Some suggest that Wahhabism is the standard of ISIS--and even go as far as suggesting Obama and the Bushes to be or to have been aligned with such. Even back as far as 2003 and even 1994 I met people from the USA who had the same kind of ideas of rape, pillaging, sodomy and hatred for the saints and they were self-confessed Muslims.

    Related:
    That may be true; one can study the intricacies of specific doctrines of Islam the same as the many denominations of Christianity. The point, however, is basic and fundamental; what is the measurement standard of being a true muslim and what is the measurement standard of being a true christian?

    Then, who do we find emulating said measurement standards?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by BLBereans View Post
    That may be true; one can study the intricacies of specific doctrines of Islam the same as the many denominations of Christianity. The point, however, is basic and fundamental; what is the measurement standard of being a true muslim and what is the measurement standard of being a true christian?

    Then, who do we find emulating said measurement standards?
    Valid questions no doubt. One interesting thing, the guys who were actually from the middle east never showed such an attitude as the ones I met who were from the USA.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    Valid questions no doubt. One interesting thing, the guys who were actually from the middle east never showed such an attitude as the ones I met who were from the USA.
    The eye test reveals that the majority of "big mouths" and "activists" and "attention-getters" are the overwhelming minority of a people. However, that does not answer the question as whether or not "moderate muslims" renounce the teachings, actions, and doctrine of Muhammed, the founder of their faith.

  6. #6
    Well it might be that the judge has it right about Islam being a political system rather than a religion. The doctrines of Manicheanism would be designated as heritical Gnostic doctrines. AFAIK, the Koran teaches that Christians and Jews to be "people of the book" are are not to be harmed or enslaved. The Wahhabist clearly have a different take on that. I get the impression that with Islam there many factions and divisions like among Christians. However, Christianity has a solid standard. From my observations of Islam, I get contradictory impressions--even rather nebulous widely-fluctuating ones.

    Also, Muslims are supposed to obey the sovereign wherever they are. They are to knowledge prohibited from undermining governments where they go. Again, Wahhabists might have a different view on that.

    Related:
    Last edited by allodial; 11-22-15 at 05:02 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  7. #7
    The "fluctuations" seem to have started with the very founder of the faith...

    MUHAMMAD’S KINGDOM & THE CALIPHATE

    Muhammad’s ministry lasted for 23 years, from 610 to his death from poisoning in 633. During that time, with the exception of his colossal Satanic Verses error, he proclaimed and practiced Islam faithfully. Those 23 years were divided between two cities: 13 years in Mecca and 10 years in Medina.

    Muhammad’s ministry in Mecca was primarily a spiritual one. In several aspects it paralleled Jesus’s ministry. At this time he did not seek to establish a physical kingdom of Allah. (I know that Allah means God and Arab Christians use it. Here I am using Allah to signify Islam’s God). Allah had told Muhammad that he was not to force men to become Muslims:


    “And if your Lord had enforced His Will, surely, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Will you then force men to become believers?” Quran 10:99


    Muhammad had little success in Mecca. His few followers were weak and oppressed. Any use of force against the Quraysh, the dominant tribe in Mecca, would result in their deaths.

    However a few years before he left Mecca he gained new converts in Medina. These followers preached Islam and gained many converts there. Soon Muhammad had a sizeable body of Muslims in Medina. Many were men of war and at the Second Pledge of Aqabah they pledged their swords in Muhammad’s defense.

    Throughout his ministry, as Muhammad’s circumstances changed Allah’s revelations changed, and Islam changed. And these fighting men represented a significant change! Unlike his followers in Mecca the Medina Muslims were not weak or oppressed. They were armed and knew how to fight. On cue, shortly before he left Mecca and fled to Medina, Allah gave Muhammad a new revelation, the “Order to Fight.” Ibn Ishaq states:

    The apostle had not been given permission to fight or allowed to shed blood before the second Aqaba. He had simply been ordered to call men to God and to endure insult and forgive the ignorant….


    …He gave permission to His apostle to fight and to protect himself against those who wronged them and treated them badly.1


    The “Order to Fight” is described on pages 212 and 213. Different Islamic scholars have differing opinions as to which verses exactly comprise this revelation (most all of the various verses are similar), but here the general text is stated as 22:39-41 and 2:193. Below are two of the four verses


    Permission to fight is given to those (i.e. believers against disbelievers), who are fighting them, ... 22:39

    Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers. 2:193


    The order to fight allowed both defensive and offensive fighting, (offensive to end idolatry and spiritual rebellion). Many of the non-violent verses in the Quran were now "abrogated" or canceled.

    Muhammad summed up Allah’s directive:


    It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.2


    I want to emphasize this: If you want to understand the violence in the Islamic would today you must start here. Muhammad’s statement above is a foundation, a “Maxwell’s Equation,” for understanding the role violence plays in Islam.

    Muhammad intended to set up a kingdom of Allah. People would have to testify that Muhammad was Allah’s Messenger and they would have to obey various aspects of Islamic law. This was not optional. People had to either submit to Islam or fight the Muslims. Muhammad, and implicitly his followers, were ordered to fight non-Muslims until they either converted or submitted to Islam’s rule (as Christians and Jews had to pay extortion and submit in humility per 9:29).


    source

    Either Muhammed did what he did or didn't. He either taught that those who follow him and come after him should continue his teachings, actions, and doctrine or he didn't.

  8. #8
    Name:  moon-sun-symbols.jpg
Views: 121
Size:  60.0 KB
    Well SHOEBAT suggests Muhammed to have not been the founder of Islam, that Islam has its roots in Arianism. There is a line of evidence allegedly going back to Simon Magus. SHOEBAT also suggests Alberto Rivera to have been a con-artist and the Vatican having had zero part in creating Islam (why are their religions so similar?). SHOEBAT's key argument is that it makes zero sense to him that the Vatican a create a system to kill off Christians which Shoebat suggests would be akin to the Vatican being against itself. In any case, it seems kind've strange how he manages to fail to mention Manichaenism and only mentions Arianism.

    From what I have observed, there is a popcorn trail that leads back to Mani and thusly to Simon Magus.

    The Roman Catholic Church and Islam


    The Roman Catholic Church and Islam have much in common:

    1. Both the Roman Catholic Church and Islam believe that they are the one true church/religion.

    2. The Roman Catholic Church and the Islam require mandatory fasting.

    3. The Roman Catholic Church worships, prays to and gives titles of God to Mary. Islam highly esteems Mary and she is mentioned 34 times in the Qu'ran.

    "Even the infidel Muhammed glorifies Mary in his Koran, saying, 'The angels shall say to Maryam, "Allah has chosen thee; he has made thee exempt from all stain'". The Marian (Roman Catholic) Bible

    4. The Roman Catholic Church and Islam base their salvation on a complicated system of works and deny salvation by faith alone. There is no assurance of salvation in either religion.

    5. Both cults deny the Biblical view of the Atonement. The Roman Catholic Church doctrine dictates that one must go to Purgatory to have his sins purged, Jesus just paved the way. The Muslims believe their works will save them but will not know until Judgment Day. This is because there is no atonement for sin, and God's grace does not exist.

    6. The Roman Catholic Church claims visions and apparitions in an effort to add false doctrine. Muhammad claimed to be purified as a child by angels. He claimed to receive revelations from Archangel Jibril or Gabriel.

    7. The Roman Catholic Church uses a rosary for their prayers, Islam uses prayer beads. The rosary/prayer beads are concepts taken from paganism.

    8. The Pope is the vicar or substitute of Christ for the Roman Catholic Church. (# 882 RCC Catechism) In Islam, Muhammad is called the last and final Messenger of God, the successor to Jesus.

    9. The Roman Catholic Church and Islam have their own divorce system. The Roman Catholic Church grants anullments and Islam allows a man to divorce his wife by telling her she is divorced.

    10. Islam rejects the Trinity doctrine, the Deity of Christ, salvation by grace through faith and teaches that Christians should be killed. However, the Roman Catholic Church accepts them and believes that they are offered salvation because of their faith in Abraham. (# 841 RCC Catechism)

    11. Both church organizations believe that leaving their church will result in eternal damnation.

    12. The Roman Catholic Church and Islam share a hatred for the Jews.

    13. The Roman Catholic Church and the Islam base some of their doctrine on pagan traditions. For The Roman Catholic Church the traditions of a goddess, rosary, pope, relics, purgatory, transubstantiation, praying to dead people, and idol worship are all based on paganism. The Allah of Islam was actually a pagan god, and not even the major deity.

    14. The Roman Catholic Church and Islam have added books to support false doctrine. The Roman Catholic Church has added the Apocrypha and Islam the Qu'ran.

    15. The Roman Catholic Church priest system (including Popes) has a history of sexual abuse of women and children. Islam has a history of (including Muhammad) sexual abuse of women and children. (source)
    Related:
    Arianism
    Islam And Catholicism Similarities
    Last edited by allodial; 11-22-15 at 05:24 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    Well SHOEBAT suggests Muhammed to have not been the founder of Islam, that Islam has its roots in Arianism. There is a line of evidence allegedly going back to Simon Magus.

    SHOEBAT also suggests Alberto Rivera to have been a con-artist and the Vatican having had zero part in creating Islam (why are their religions so similar?). I figure its kind've strange how he manages to fail to mention Manichaenism.

    Related:
    Arianism
    Again, that may be true; in fact, I believe the roots go even farther back - Nimrod and Babylon. The denial of the Logos, the Angel of the LORD, the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth is at the heart of ALL false faiths. How they progress through history or what the exact and specific doctrines may be is inconsequential. It is the denial of Jesus as God that is at the root of ALL evil teachings and faiths. That would include the faith professed in Rome (The Vatican).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BLBereans View Post
    Again, that may be true; in fact, I believe the roots go even farther back - Nimrod and Babylon. The denial of the Logos, the Angel of the LORD, the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth is at the heart of ALL false faiths. How they progress through history or what the exact and specific doctrines may be is inconsequential. It is the denial of Jesus as God that is at the root of ALL evil teachings and faiths. That would include the faith professed in Rome (The Vatican).
    The denial of God manifesting as Savior is the denial of a personal god capable of creating life or capable or interested in intervening or having any concern for the "physical world"--it is to deny God's potency, life-giving qualities, creativity, intelligence and personality. A similarity with that kind of thinking and communists, is that they are systems for punishing people for merely thinking or believing above a certain level: tools for political control. An "elite" getting its plebes to oppress each other takes a lot of burden off of that elite --especially if they make it a religion. Perhaps modern-day Esau/Edom has tall poppy syndrome?

    ...tall poppy syndrome is a pejorative term primarily used in the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, and other Anglosphere nations to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers. This is similar to begrudgery, the resentment or envy of the success of a peer.
    5 Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him all the more. 6 He said to them, “Listen to this dream I had: 7 We were binding sheaves of grain out in the field when suddenly my sheaf rose and stood upright, while your sheaves gathered around mine and bowed down to it.”

    8 His brothers said to him, “Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actually rule us?” And they hated him all the more because of his dream and what he had said.

    9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

    10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

    11 His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind.

    12 Now his brothers had gone to graze their father’s flocks near Shechem, 13 and Israel said to Joseph, “As you know, your brothers are grazing the flocks near Shechem. Come, I am going to send you to them.”

    “Very well,” he replied.

    14 So he said to him, “Go and see if all is well with your brothers and with the flocks, and bring word back to me.” Then he sent him off from the Valley of Hebron.

    When Joseph arrived at Shechem, 15 a man found him wandering around in the fields and asked him, “What are you looking for?”

    16 He replied, “I’m looking for my brothers. Can you tell me where they are grazing their flocks?”

    17 “They have moved on from here,” the man answered. “I heard them say, ‘Let’s go to Dothan.’”

    So Joseph went after his brothers and found them near Dothan. 18 But they saw him in the distance, and before he reached them, they plotted to kill him.

    19 “Here comes that dreamer!” they said to each other. 20 “Come now, let’s kill him and throw him into one of these cisterns and say that a ferocious animal devoured him. Then we’ll see what comes of his dreams.”

    21 When Reuben heard this, he tried to rescue him from their hands. “Let’s not take his life,” he said. 22 “Don’t shed any blood. Throw him into this cistern here in the wilderness, but don’t lay a hand on him.” Reuben said this to rescue him from them and take him back to his father.

    23 So when Joseph came to his brothers, they stripped him of his robe—the ornate robe he was wearing— 24 and they took him and threw him into the cistern. The cistern was empty; there was no water in it.

    25 As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their way to take them down to Egypt.

    26 Judah said to his brothers, “What will we gain if we kill our brother and cover up his blood? 27 Come, let’s sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him; after all, he is our brother, our own flesh and blood.” His brothers agreed.

    28 So when the Midianite merchants came by, his brothers pulled Joseph up out of the cistern and sold him for twenty shekels[b] of silver to the Ishmaelites, who took him to Egypt.

    29 When Reuben returned to the cistern and saw that Joseph was not there, he tore his clothes. 30 He went back to his brothers and said, “The boy isn’t there! Where can I turn now?”

    31 Then they got Joseph’s robe, slaughtered a goat and dipped the robe in the blood. 32 They took the ornate robe back to their father and said, “We found this. Examine it to see whether it is your son’s robe.”
    Related:
    Tall Poppy Syndrome
    Last edited by allodial; 11-22-15 at 05:37 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •