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Thread: Jesus vs Muhammed: Who Truly Follows Who?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    The denial of God manifesting as Savior is the denial of a personal god capable of creating life or capable or interested in intervening or having any concern for the "physical world"--it is to deny God's potency, life-giving qualities, creativity, intelligence and personality. A similarity with that kind of thinking and communists, is that they are systems for punishing people for merely thinking or believing above a certain level: tools for political control.
    Agreed. However, how many muslims, whether "radical" or "moderate", acknowledge or recognize that the roots of their faith may lie with Arianism or Simon Magus?

    The point being, Muhammed is the only figure for either of them to look to as the "Prophet" by which the measurable standard of a true Muslim should be compared. Both will confess this openly and without apology I assume. Therefore, those who best emulate the "prophet Muhammed" are the true believers and followers of Islam.

    Who do we see doing that, "moderates" or "radicals"?

  2. #12
    I would like to pick up a Koran some time and give it a read. Just to know first hand.

    Once I checked out a book about Islamic Law and read the first chapter. The confession is, God is one God and Mohammed is His Prophet. It is funny that even a Christian could take exception to that, considering the Bible has many prophets aside from Jesus.

    The SHEMA recited by Jesus as a prefix to the Law, even in the New Covenant confirms monotheism. I suppose that a lot of Christians fail to identify with Ishmael as Abraham's son through Hagar. I feel that Abraham allowing Sarah to drive Hagar away, killing her with dehydration is another big source of guilt on the "Mind" of Abraham and thus effecting the behaviors of the Israelite historically.

    But then I actually look for reasons that the Israelites were hard-hearted and stiffnecked.

  3. #13
    The impression I got is that Ishmael would not partake in the priestly line and that a separate "world" was made for Ishmael. As for monotheism, I'm not so convinced except it depends on what is meant by monotheism. There is monotheism in the sense of pantheism or in the sense of panentheism or in the sense syncretism or.... Perhaps: "henotheism generally, monotheism internally (internal to the tribe)". The word "god" is said to be in part synonymous with "judge" or "ruler". The judges or rulers in China and the judges or rulers in the USA though they might have the same title, aren't 'gods' of the same people and are different gods. Of course, if A is bound to the laws of XYZ and B is bound to the laws of MNO, then they would each respectfully be judged by the respective rulers/judges of their countries. They could crusade each other's lands all they want about how there is only one 'god'--but they don't have the same 'god' in the sense of rulers/judges, just the same 'titles'.

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    How can there be strange or foreign gods and there be only one god? It is the potential for going off-road that is important to note. The neo-liberal twist on monotheism (i.e. which could be pantheism encrypted) might obscure this potential.

    Panentheism is a form of monistic monotheism which holds that the being of God includes and penetrates all the Universe but unlike pantheism (see below) the universe is not identical with God
    Did Abraham really go from polytheism to monotheism? Or did he simply eschew or reject worship of idols or external things, fully being aware that one could actually go after or worship strange, foreign or other gods or even worship one's own false or vain imaginations if one chose to?

    On the same note, if someone says "I love the prime minister". Who are they talking about? Justin Trudeau? John Key? Malcolm Turnbull? If the aliens say "Take me to your leader" to a crowd at an airport, they will likely be taken to ten or more different places. "Leader" doesn't specify whom. Thusly, a name is important.

    On that note, royalty are typically addressed using plural. English speakers use you all the time (it is a plural word). Eloah is singular (more familiar rather than formal) word that can mean god, judge, ruler, angel, etc. It is said that "allah" and "eloah" might be synonymous. But is judge, ruler or angel a name? Is there anywhere in the Bible where the God of Israel says that is name is "God"?
    Last edited by allodial; 11-22-15 at 10:36 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  4. #14
    Perhaps this might have some relevance: The Islamic Origins of Talmudic Judaism?
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  5. #15
    Mohammed's "revelation" was that in the midst of the several "gods" which were formally worshiped by him and his brethren, the god "Allah" was to be exalted and worshiped alone as the only one among the group of gods worthy as being "the god".

    This cannot be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the subsequent rejection of Mohammed by the Jews makes clear. He failed to convince his "brothers of the book" and then turned on them as mortal enemies when he found his strong and willing army in Medina. The campaign, and false doctrine of jihad {the forceful conversion to his new faith Islam (submission)} justified the violence and murder which ensued by offensive invasion into the land of the "infidels".

    This is Mohammed folks; no one can dispute it and no one can wash away the fact that the founder, and measurable model, of the Islamic faith committed wanton violence AGAINST INNOCENTS in the name of his god and commanded everyone who follows him to do the same. People were forced to either proclaim Allah and Islam as their god and faith or die by the sword (or pay a "tax" and be a slave).

    The people that Mohammed attacked were NOT idol-worshipers, human sacrificers, evildoers unto man, forsakers of God the Creator, etc.; they were innocent people who would not SUBMIT to Mohammed, and his newly claimed false god/religion - mostly Jews and Christians.

    Therefore, those who some call "radicals" are not radical at all; they are the true adherents to the original faith as founded and practiced by the self-proclaimed prophet Mohammed. NO real muslim denounces Mohammed and his actions, no matter how "moderate" they may be. They do NOT, however, practice the true Islam; they practice a reformed watered down version which claims "jihad" is to be ONLY interpreted as an "internal struggle". They live in fear of death from their own so they do not speak out loudly and renounce the acts of violence committed in the name of their religion and yet they still exalt Mohammed and Allah, the dynamic duo who justify violence and murder against innocent people who refuse to convert and submit.

    They DO NOT follow Mohammed faithfully and, therefore, they are NOT true muslims - by the way; that is a good thing.
    Last edited by BLBereans; 12-31-15 at 07:30 PM.

  6. #16
    Christ gives me the notion that God viewed the old testament as mans eye for eye spirit at this rate a genesis and Moses redundancy the Moses pharisaical or idol book worship was a biblical tribal dance waiting for a new Moses after every chosen tribe on Earth Someone who is pharisaical preaches one thing and then does another — not a good trait for politicians or even playground pals. Why use pharisaical when Christ worship nothing wrote less and pointed out why favor with God is a worthy task without pharisaical ring kissing church doctrine went genesis again Christ offers more for less the michael tsarion jordan maxwell zoroaster astrological the night sky pilot cracks me up night sky was Egyptian and the morning Sun Egyptian. Summurian nights and suns not KNIGHTS and SONs Gen. 1:3 indicates God created light to provide day and night until God made the sun on the 4th day to rule the day He had made. In other words, the sun is placed in the firmament to distinguish the seasons...to rule the day that God had made 1:16.

    What is God telling us by this....what can we know from this?

    First, from Apoc. 21:23, that one day the sun will not be needed as the glory of God will lighten the heavenly city. v. 25 says there won't be nights so time as we know it will have ended.

    Second, God did it this way to illustrate to us that the sun did not have priority in the Creation that people tend to give it. Down through the ages, people such as the Egyptians worshipped the sun. God warned the Isrealites in Deut. 4:19, not to worship the sun like the pagan cultures around them did. They were commanded to worship God Who made the sun, and not the sun.

    Third, in plain words, the sun did not give birth to the earth as evolutionists postulate in the Big Bang hypothesis. From the BBT, other evolutionists state that the sun's energy on earth gave rise to life reviving pagan beliefs that the sun is given credit for the wonder of God's creation.I believe God wrote the night sky as he knew that book and the night sky are the same u never got killed reading the sky but that book and its temple rabbinical franchised kabal . papal controlled islamic controlled 3 great lies to this day who craves divinity from a book ALEXANDria library burnt the truth or just burnt the first set of lies. Christ is the conspiracy that God created Christs intelligence is beyond any conspirator.

  7. #17
    I do not view Moses, or the book(s) he wrote, as "pharisaical" or as "idol worship" (forgive me if I misinterpreted you on this point xparte).

    The laws of the OT were specifically a polemic against the ways and manners of the pagans and idolators of the ancient near east. We must view and read the OT through the eyes of the people of the time to realize that "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" was not a command or endorsement of revenge from God; it was a polemic against undue and unjust recompense for wrongs committed against you. In other words, the rebellious pagans did NOT dispense righteous judgment for wrongs since they did not follow the one true God. There was no limit to retribution and God sought to show how His people are Holy (set-apart) and NOT like the rest of the worldly pagans who are unrighteous and full of evil and vengeance.

    God always meets us where we are while still delivering His message in no uncertain terms. He commands His people to be set-apart and, at that time, the appropriate example was to introduce "eye for an eye.." which means do NOT seek out more than what is due.

    Since man has a flawed nature, the OT laws were not perfectly kept by anyone. That is why Jesus came and was born into the world; He came to perfectly fulfill the law that NO other man was/is capable of keeping. He incurred the death that was due to us all as a result of our inability to keep His law perfectly (sin). Now, those who believe in Christ live under grace rather than under the law. Our observance and keeping of God's commands is a symbol of our faith and love for Him yet our "works" have NO bearing on our salvation. It is our rank and reward which will be determined by God when our works are judged by Him at His appointed time.

  8. #18
    Christ gives me the notion that God viewed the old testament as only mans eye for eye spirit at this rate a forever genesis and does Christ now share Moses redundancy the Moses and a pharisaical interpretation or idol book worship was a biblical tribal dance waiting for a new Moses after every chosen tribe on Earth Someone who is pharisaical preaches one thing and then does another — not a good trait for politicians or even playground pals.moses was himself not pharisaical and who else but a pharisee worship that book so much so Christ was prophesied and true to our nature just like moses had not followed Gods instruction Christ was ignored bye the ones intrusted just as Noah Abraham Moses. Why use pharisaical judgement when Christ worship nothing, wrote less bible and pointed out why favor with God is a worthy task without pharisaical ring kissing church doctrine went genesis again no the folks that took Moses messages in his books and became greater than Moses and some how became those other moses or pharisaical thinking that might surpass moses the new law givers.Christ ask us to be no greater than the truth when we get behind the truth its no book we follow get behind me satan if Christ is telling us to repent moses is telling us why and the book is reference for pharisaical deception Man law is interpretation Gods in a living Christs true salvation bible is the journal not the journey each man has choice a pharisaical path is a all knowing man.LB reading the book without becoming the book . i seen enough burning bushes before i new moses ever wrote about them just think what moses might have written bout Christ. is what each man should know about himself
    Last edited by xparte; 01-03-16 at 01:31 AM. Reason: better parsing hopefully

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