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Thread: The Islamic Origins of Talmudic Judaism

  1. #1

    The Islamic Origins of Talmudic Judaism

    The Islamic Origins of Talmudic Judaism
    (or, Is Shar'ia Just Another Name for Talmudic Judaism?)


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    The root word for Islam is “al-Silm,” which means “submission” or “surrender.” From the article it can be inferred: submission to Talmudic Judaism. Angela Merkle's dad (Adolf Hitler) said that his preferred religion for his subjects was Islam.
    Below is an extract from the book "The Talmud: a Biography" by Jewish author Harry Freedman. I'll refrain from the usual practice of putting quotes in italics since it can be weary on the eye with such a large amount of text. But everything below is quoted.

    In the year 622 ce the prophet Mohammed and his followers embarked on a series of military campaigns from their base at Medina in the Arabian Peninsula. Within a remarkably short period of time the political and religious map of the Middle East would look very different. No nation, faith or institution which fell under their influence would emerge unchanged. The Talmud was no exception.

    Mohammed had an extensive knowledge of Judaism and Jewish practice. This is clear from the Qu’ran itself, as well as from later commentaries and legends. He may even have been influenced by Jewish teachers. One legend has the Prophet discussing the names of the stars in Joseph’s dream with the son of the exilarch Bustanai, of whom we will soon hear more. At first Mohammed instructed his followers to face Jerusalem when praying, as the Jews do, and he instituted a fast on the tenth day of the first month, corresponding to the Jewish Day of Atonement.

    One of the ideological battles the Talmud was yet to fight would be to bring dissenting Jewish groups, such as those in the Arabian Peninsula, within its sphere of influence. It was the spread of Islam over the next few centuries which allowed the battle to be won.

    Each faith influenced the other. This is obvious both from the structure of their legal systems and some of the legislation itself. Their influence upon each other was more than just a simple two-way process; Gideon Libson explains it as a feedback model in which the Talmudic system first impacted Islam, which at a later stage left its imprint on Talmudic law.

    Both Islam and Judaism are religions which minutely regulate every aspect of the believer’s life. They’re each based on a God-given written document – the Torah for Judaism and the Qu’ran for Islam. These divine texts are each interpreted and expanded upon by an oral tradition – the Talmud and the Hadith respectively. Both traditions contain legal and ethical material, and the legal material in each distinguishes between religious laws and social laws. The Jewish system of law is called halacha, the Islamic system is called shar’ia. Both names mean a ‘pathway’ or a ‘way to go’.

    Unlike Christianity, the laws and beliefs in Islam and Judaism are derived through a process of reasoning and scholarship; there are no councils or synods to rule on doctrine, ethics or behaviour. In fact the two religions are so close in terms of their structure that the tenth-century rabbinic leader Saadia Gaon would unselfconsciously refer to Jewish law as shar’ia, to the prayer leader in a synagogue as an imam and the direction in which Jews faced when praying as qibla.

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    (source/more)

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    Last edited by allodial; 12-24-15 at 08:18 PM.
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    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  2. #2
    The Talmud being the "oral tradition" passed down through the generations of those who purport to have gained "secret" knowledge and/or special understanding of scripture which only "they" received. These are the continuation of "fools, hypocrites, blind guides, whited sepulchers, murderers, generation of snakes, members of the synagogue of satan, etc."; how Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees of his day.

    All "religions" which deny Jesus the Christ as Lord and Savior are the SAME. There are only two faiths that exist; those who claim Jesus of Nazareth, Creator God incarnate, as Lord and those that do not. There are many faces, costumes, rituals, texts, ceremonies, festivals, chants, etc. and they all have one thing in common; the denial of Jesus of Nazareth as the only Way, Truth and Life.

    The "spinoffs" and "offshoots" started after the scattering of Nimrod's Babylon; each group keeping elements of the original false religion and making it their own.

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    Abrahamic religions (also Semitic religions) are monotheistic religions of West Asian origin, emphasizing and tracing their common origin to Abraham or recognizing a spiritual tradition identified with him. They comprise one of the major divisions in comparative religion, along with Indian and East Asian religions. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the largest Abrahamic religions.

    The largest Abrahamic religions in chronological order of founding are Judaism (1st millennium BC)[specify], Christianity (1st century AD) and Islam (7th century AD).

    Abrahamic religions with fewer adherents include Rastafarianism, Samaritanism, Druzism (sometimes classified as a branch of Shia Islam),Mandaeism, Bábism and the Bahá'í Faith.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions


    At their core aren't they all basically the same anyway ?

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    From page 48 of From Babylon to Timbuktu by Rudolph R. Windsor

    Quote Originally Posted by loveunderlaw View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

    At their core aren't they all basically the same anyway ?
    Or might they be heavily misinterpreted in a similar fashion?



    Why is Islam so very protected? Is there some secret being kept?

    Related:
    Islam & Judaism - Some Surprising Similarities
    Last edited by allodial; 12-24-15 at 08:18 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  5. #5


    Many of the stories in the Quran come from the Jewish Talmud, the Midrash, and many apocryphal works.

    This was pointed out by Abraham Geiger in 1833, and further documented by another Jewish scholar, Dr. Abraham Katsh, of New York University, in 1954 (The Concise Dictionary of Islam, p. 229; Jomier, The Bible and the Quran -- Henry Regency Co., Chicago, 1959, 59ff; Sell, Studies, pp. 163ff.; Guillaume, Islam, p. 13).

    The source of Sura 3:35-37 is the fanciful book called The Protevangelion's James the Lesser.
    The source of Sura 87:19 is the Testament of Abraham.
    The source of Sura 27:17-44 is the Second Targum of Esther.
    The fantastic tale that God made a man "die for a hundred years" with no ill effects on his food, drink, or donkey was a Jewish fable (Sura 2:259ff.).
    The idea that Moses was resurrected and other material came from the Jewish Talmud (Sura 2:55, 56, 67).
    The story in Sura 5:30,31 can also be found in pre-Islamic works from Pirke Rabbi Eleazer, the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziah and the Targum of Jerusalem.
    The tale of Abraham being delivered from Nimrod's fire came from the Midrash Rabbah (see Suras 21:51-71; 29:16, 17; 37:97,98). It must be also pointed out that Nimrod and Abraham did not live at the same time. Muhammad was always mixing people together in the Quran who did not live at the same time.
    The non-biblical details of the visit of the Queen of Sheba (Saba) in Sura 27:20-44 came from the Second Targum of the Book of Esther.
    The source of Sura 2:102 is no doubt the Midrash Yalkut (chapter 44).
    The story found in Sura 7:171 of God lifting up Mount Sinai and holding it over the heads of the Jews as a threat to squash them if they rejected the law came from the Jewish book Abodah Sarah.
    The story of the making of the golden calf in the wilderness, in which the image jumped out of the fire fully formed and actually mooed (Suras 7:148; 20:88), came from Pirke Rabbi Eleazer.
    The seven heavens and hells described in the Quran came from the Zohar and the Hagigah.
    Muhammad utilized the Testament of Abraham to teach that a scale or balance will be used on the day of judgment to weigh good and bad deeds in order to determine whether one goes to heaven or hell (Suras 42:17; 101:6-9).
    When someone says "The Muslims did it" clearly, they are talking in code.

    Based on a study of Sharia Law and Talmud, John Kunkle concludes "Islam and Judaism are not religions, but political movements dressed up as religions." (source)
    Last edited by allodial; 12-25-15 at 06:04 AM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by BLBereans View Post

    There are only two faiths that exist; those who claim Jesus of Nazareth, Creator God incarnate, as Lord and those that do not.
    Well, that doesn't sound like a very loving attitude, does it?

    Let me guess...those who don't espouse your view are going to be made to pass through the eternal and unquenchable fire...by the very same "God" who supposedly loves them...sounds to me like some hateful stuff. Are you sure that the l-rd won't say {to you}...away from me you evil doer....never knew ye..remind us all where that's found, again?
    Last edited by ohiofoiarequest; 12-30-15 at 03:25 AM.

  7. #7
    (In no particular order)

    Islam, Judaism, Christianity...Islam, Judaism, Christianity...Islam, Judaism, Christianity...Islam, Judaism, Christianity...Islam, Judaism, Christianity...Islam, Judaism, Christianity...Islam, Judaism, Christianity...Islam, Judaism, Christianity...Islam, Judaism, Christianity...Islam, Judaism, Christianity...Islam, Judaism, Christianity...Islam, Judaism, Christianity...

    I would ask, are we beginning to see a pattern yet?

    A whole lot of brainwashed masses claiming sole access to the way...

    Somebody important in history said that all it takes to make KILLING pleasurable is to believe the person being killed is BAD or EVIL.

    Seems to me like all three of these claiming the same about each other invalidates the premise of ALL three of these so called religions.

    So sorry to inform you all that g-d the l-rd loves all men EQUALLY and UNCONDITIONALLY. Thanks for understanding.

    PS but on an historical note...I believe one preceded the other..therefore one is considered and publicly acknowledged as the "eldest brother".
    Last edited by ohiofoiarequest; 12-30-15 at 03:48 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiofoiarequest View Post
    Well, that doesn't sound like a very loving attitude, does it?

    Let me guess...those who don't espouse your view are going to be made to pass through the eternal and unquenchable fire...by the very same "God" who supposedly loves them...sounds to me like some hateful stuff. Are you sure that the l-rd won't say {to you}...away from me you evil doer....never knew ye..remind us all where that's found, again?
    For you to conclude anything hateful from a mere statement of fact, tells us more about your presuppositions than mine.

    It is not "my view", it is actually a sound and logical statement; either one chooses to believe that Jesus is God incarnate or not, is there any middle ground? That is what ALL other religions have in common and why the original and fundamental faith of Jesus is distinct from all of them.

    I did not add any commentary as to anyone's final destination or what they might "pass through", that is your preconceived notion regarding the hearts and minds of "Christians" who, in your experience, have not shown you a "loving attitude". I am saddened by your experience, however, please do not lump me in that category.

    Actually, I believe that the highest expression of love is to share the good news with someone. The freedom to choose gives relevance and meaning to love; would you rather force someone to love you or have them choose to love you?

    God created us all with the freedom to choose; ask, seek and knock so you can choose wisely.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohiofoiarequest View Post
    So sorry to inform you all that g-d the l-rd loves all men EQUALLY and UNCONDITIONALLY. Thanks for understanding.
    Quoting from the Secret Book of James: (comments added)

    The Savior said: ‘You (the Jews and Christians) have received mercy. Do you not desire, then to be filled? (with the spirit) And is your heart drunk? Do you not desire, then, to be sober? Therefore, be ashamed! And now, waking or sleeping, remember that you have seen the Son of Man, and with him you have spoken and to him you have listened. Woe to those who have seen the Son of Man! Blessed are those who have not seen the Son of Man, and who have not consorted with him, and who have not spoken with him, and who have not listened to anything from him. Yours is life!’ (In other words it is the Jews and the Christians who will bear the brunt of his anger at his return, and those who were not given the knowledge will then understand him as he should have been understood all along.) Know, therefore, that he healed you when you were ill, in order that you might reign. Woe to those who have rested from their illness, because they will relapse again into illness. (The illness is religion.) Blessed are those who have not been ill, and have known rest (The truth about the Kingdom - the mystery) before they became ill. Yours is the Kingdom of God!

    =====

    In my humble opinion Jesus did not preach religion - rather the teachings were about a way of life. Traditions and the like have little meaning in regard to The Way.

    =====

    From the Gospel of Thomas: (comments added)

    14) Jesus said to them, If you fast (From the word instead of the world--verse 27), you will give rise to sin (A lack of understanding and a sinful age) for yourselves; and if you pray (For the Kingdom to come instead of seeking for it), you will be condemned; and if you give alms (As opposed to the keys of knowledge--verse 39; Luke 11:52),you will do harm to your spirits. (By focusing on physical needs instead of spiritual) when you go into any land and walk about in the districts (Throughout all Christendom,) if they receive you, (Accept you, or give you a hearing) eat what they will set before you (Use whatever Scriptures they accept as authoritative), and heal (Restore the mystery to) the (Spiritually) sick among them. For what goes into your mouth (Scripturally) will not defile you, but that which issues from your mouth (Against the Scriptures) –it is that which will defile you.


    60) <They saw> a Samaritan (Those of a small and limited Canon) carrying a lamb on his way to Judea. He said to his disciples, (Why does) that man (carry) the lamb (Christianity) around? They said to him, so that he may kill it (With their own teachings) and eat it (Read it in their own way). He said to them, while it is alive (Able to change them and bring them alive), he will not eat (Read, accept) it, but only when he has killed it (With his own teachings) and it (The Word) has become a corpse (Part of the corpus of Scriptures only, lacking spirit and life). They said to him, he cannot do so (Grasp the Living Word) otherwise. He said to them, you too, look for a place for yourself within the repose (The time between the loss and recovery of the mystery), lest you (New Testament, and Apocryphal New Testament writers,) become a corpse (Stripped of your higher meanings) and be eaten (Accepted on the level of their dead understanding).


    64) Jesus said, A man had received visitors. And when he had prepared the dinner (The feast of God’s Eternal Word), he sent his servant (The prophets) to invite guests (Believers). He went to the first one (The Early Church infiltrators) and said to him, my master invites you.' he said, ‘I have claims against some merchants (The false Jews-who had hidden the keys --verse 39; Luke 11:52). They are coming to me this evening (As the day, or time of understanding fades away). I must go and give them my orders (Imitate their ways, so that I may profit as they did). I ask to be excused from the dinner.' (I will not accept all of these Scriptures) he went to another (The Church shortly after the takeover) and said, 'My master has invited you.' he said to him, ‘I have just bought a house (Established a Church) and am required for the day. (Like the day laborers who each get a denarius) I shall not have any spare time.' (My work is more important) he went to another (The Protestants) and said to him, 'my master invites you.' He said to him, 'My friend is going to get married, (Marriage Supper of the Lamb) and I am to prepare the banquet. (The Canon shall be as I set it) I shall not be able to come. (Because your banquet involves more of God’s Word than I teach or accept) I ask to be excused from the dinner. (I reject your food, your Scriptures) ‘He went to another (The Christians at the end of the 2,000-year age) and said to him, My master invites you. (To eat, or accept all the books as the prophets have) 'He said to him, ‘I have just bought a farm, (I am completely invested by now) and I am on my way to collect the rent. (It is time for me to cash-in on my sheep who have nothing else now to believe in but me) I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused (I reject these Scriptures).’ The servant (The prophets) returned and said to his master, 'Those whom you invited to the dinner (The Christian religious establishment) have asked to be excused.' the master said to his servant, 'go outside (of the religious establishment) to the streets (The Gentiles, the rabble, prostitutes and tax-collectors-as at first with the Jews) and bring back those whom you happen to meet, (Anyone-good or bad; you, me, whomever) so that they may dine.' (Accept the words being revealed in the feast of God’s Word) Businessmen and merchants (Religious leaders, see Revelation 13:17) will not enter (By choice) the places of my Father.


    108) Jesus said, He who will drink (The Word) from my mouth (His words, rather than from a cup; or Canon) will become like me. (We shall see him as he is, know the truth and be set free from religion, which needs a cup, or Canon) I myself shall become he, (John 7:37-39, etcetera) and the things that are hidden (The keys, the understanding of this and other Scriptures) will become revealed to him.
    The blessing is in the hand of the doer. Faith absent deeds is dead.

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  10. #10
    Im not sure where I got this impression and it was probably from here but I think that perhaps there is a secret society such as a masonic one that leads them all ("Islam, Judaism, Christianity..." and the other organized forms of religion)

    or maybe just a unique, odd suspicion leads me to this, i cant say for certain. I used to think it an evil plan but starting to consider it quite the opposite now.

    thanks

    edit: and babylon, Baby-lon. define each of these words separately, put that together then consider why it may have been written "The great whore"

    hmmm
    Last edited by george; 12-31-15 at 01:07 AM.

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