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Thread: "You Don’t Have to Show Any ID to Fly"

  1. #1

    "You Don’t Have to Show Any ID to Fly"

    "You Don’t Have to Show Any ID to Fly"
    December 28, 2015


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    We’re quoted in an article today in the New York Times about the Federal government’s efforts to use the threat of denial of air travel to scare state legislators into connecting their state drivers license and ID databases to the distributed national “REAL-ID” database through the REAL-ID “hub” operated by the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (AAMVA).

    We welcome the Times’ coverage of this issue. But some readers might be misled by the Times’ headline, “T.S.A. Moves Closer to Rejecting Some State Driver’s Licenses for Travel“.

    As Edward Hasbrouck of the Identity Project, who was quoted in the New York Times story, discussed in detail in this presentation earlier this year at the Cato Institute in Washington, the most important thing you need to know about this issue is that you do not — and you will not, regardless of how or when the TSA “implements” the REAL-ID Act — need to show any ID to fly. People fly, legally, every day, without showing any ID, and that will continue to be the case. You have a legal right to fly, and the REAL-ID Act does not and cannot deprive you of that right.

    The TSA often lies in its public statements, including on its website and on signs at airports, and claims that airline passengers “must” or are “required” to have and to show government-issued photo ID. Currently, the page on TSA.gov headed “Identification” begins with the knowingly false and deliberately misleading statement, “Adult passengers 18 and over must show valid identification at the airport checkpoint in order to travel.” But the consistent official position of the TSA in court has been that no law, no TSA regulation, and no policy or practice of the TSA — not even the secret TSA “Standard Operating Procedures” (SOPs) and other secret TSA orders to its checkpoint staff and contractors — requires anyone to show any ID to pass through TSA checkpoints and travel by air.

    That’s what the TSA told the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in Gilmore v. Gonzales. After reviewing the secret SOPs in camera, the court found that John Gilmore could have boarded flights, as he tried to do, without showing any ID. That’s incorrect. The case was improperly and prematurely decided on the basis of ex parte submissions that Mr. Gilmore had no chance to rebut, and in fact Mr. Gilmore was prevented from flying without showing ID. But if what the TSA submitted to the court is to be believed, that was a consequence of illegal actions by TSA staff, contractors, and/or airline personnel, not a result of any law, regulation, or TSA policy or order.

    “People fly without ID every day. We have a procedure for that.” That’s what a TSA checkpoint supervisor testified, under oath, at the trial of Phil Mocek. Mr. Mocek was falsely arrested by Albuquerque police, at the behest of the TSA, in retaliation against him for trying to film and record the process of flying without ID. But because flying without ID is not illegal, they had to trump up other bogus charges to try to justify the arrest, and Mr. Mocek was acquitted by a jury of all of these charges, including that of “concealing” his identity.

    To date, the TSA has disclosed only fragments of the reports it compiles every day on how many people try to fly without ID, and what happens to them. These reports show that some would-be travelers are wrongly prevented from traveling because they exercise their right to remain silent when they are interrogated by checkpoint staff, because they don’t know who the commercial data brokerage Accurint thinks are their neighbors or their answers don’t match other factoids in Accurint’s garbage in, garbage out database, or because Accurint doesn’t have enough data to profile them to the TSA’s satisfaction. These TSA reports also confirm, however, that people are, in fact, allowed to fly every day without showing ID.

    Our friend Jim Harper, who moderated the discussion at the Cato Institute on this topic we took part in this May, has documented how each state has responded to the REAL-ID Act. No state has fully implemented the original terms of the law, or met the “deadlines” originally set by Congress in the REAL-ID Act or later by the DHS. DHS claims about what the REAL-ID Act would require, and when, are as full of lies as the TSA notices in airports — which the TSA has admitted are false — claiming that airline passengers are required to have and to show government-issued photo ID.

    We can’t promise that the TSA won’t issue new secret orders to its employees and contractors, ordering them or purporting to give them “discretion” to block would-be travelers who don’t have or don’t chose to show ID. The TSA is a lawless agency that has never recognized that it has to follow publicly-disclosed rules, or respect that travel (including travel by common carrier) is a Constitutional, statutory, and international treaty right, not a privilege that the TSA or its minions can grant or deny at whim. The TSA has made other similarly illegal changes to its practices recently.

    Nothing in the REAL-ID Act, however, requires or authorizes the TSA to issue any such orders, or requires the TSA or the states to follow any particular timeline. The TSA has extended all of its previous REAL-ID Act “deadlines” for year after year, and has given states (even states whose legislatures have forbidden REAL-ID Act compliance) waivers or extensions.

    If the TSA closes its checkpoints to residents of certain states, that will be a flagrantly illegal and unconstitutional action which neither is nor could be authorized, much less required, by the REAL-ID Act. It would likely be immediately challenged and, we would hope, overturned by the courts.

    The TSA might try to blame such an attack on the right to travel on state authorities who aren’t willing to plug their state drivers license and ID databases into the REAL-ID hub. But the public won’t be fooled so easily by more TSA lies.

    If travelers trying to board flights on Federally-licensed airlines are turned back by Federal agents or Federal contractors staffing Federal TSA checkpoints in airports, purportedly on the basis of Federal law and Federal regulations issued by the DHS, travelers whose rights are violated, or who see their fellow travelers’ rights being violated, aren’t going to blame state legislators or state governors.

    People whose right to travel is denied by the Feds will put the blame on those who deserve it: the Congress which enacted and has refused to consider repealing the REAL-ID Act, the DHS and TSA officials who issued the REAL-ID Act regulations and the secret orders for checkpoint procedures, and the TSA employees and contractors staffing the checkpoints and turning back would-be travelers despite their holding valid tickets.

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    Last edited by allodial; 04-05-16 at 05:35 AM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  2. #2
    At the intelligence nexus of a brain trust I have found that to be true. I have heard of several hours being saved in line (accumulative) by carrying alternate ID. Often there is a screening for government-issued ID at the back end of the line. You get a special 'private' search and they board you. I have never been denied access to the federal courthouse too. They send the clerk of court out to welcome me in and escort me through the courthouse.

    The day I was denied access to the Tenth Circuit courthouse the security guards watched me call the clerk on my cell phone and she took my $10 cash right in front of them, and handed me my case I had requested.

    My feeling is that the ID requirements is a policy for guiding security officials. It is usually a "judge's order" from the chief judge.

  3. #3
    Good stuff, allodial. I've heard firsthand accounts from friends who have gone through TSA checkpoints without TSA-sanctioned ID. Seems like the only issue is how much unlawful harassment does the man in the TSA costume wish to put you though. It would be fantastic to 'standardize' a manner of refusal to present ID, then disseminate the info so people can utilize it en masse.

    Thanks for posting.

  4. #4
    It seems that whenever somebody is buying a ticket online there is a NOTICE that they will need government-issued ID at boarding. It may simply be a fiduciary responsibility. If they turn away business...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    At the intelligence nexus of a brain trust I have found that to be true. I have heard of several hours being saved in line (accumulative) by carrying alternate ID. Often there is a screening for government-issued ID at the back end of the line. You get a special 'private' search and they board you. I have never been denied access to the federal courthouse too. They send the clerk of court out to welcome me in and escort me through the courthouse.

    The day I was denied access to the Tenth Circuit courthouse the security guards watched me call the clerk on my cell phone and she took my $10 cash right in front of them, and handed me my case I had requested.

    My feeling is that the ID requirements is a policy for guiding security officials. It is usually a "judge's order" from the chief judge.
    Denying someone from accessing their inheritance and common property only because they wont swear to be a U.S. citizen seems rather fishy and unlawful--conspiracy against rights?
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jethro View Post
    Good stuff, allodial. I've heard firsthand accounts from friends who have gone through TSA checkpoints without TSA-sanctioned ID. Seems like the only issue is how much unlawful harassment does the man in the TSA costume wish to put you though. It would be fantastic to 'standardize' a manner of refusal to present ID, then disseminate the info so people can utilize it en masse.

    Thanks for posting.
    I suspect it might be helpful to present a claim of right to travel to the sheriff and the state AG (maybe even the chief judge of the nearest USDC) and carry a copy with you with along with cc and proof of service (+case jacket?). So then it might become a matter of TSA vs your sheriff and your state AG. You could also fill out the TSA Certificate of Identity and fax it to the TSA along with your claim of right and carry all of the the above with you.
    Last edited by allodial; 04-05-16 at 06:48 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  7. #7

    Travel

    So you have all these alternate forms with you, it seems a bit Amish (it's ok to use air powered tools but not electric), as in it's ok to have reams of other paperwork but one simple document which you know isn't you, is Bad? How far do we have to go to to prove we know who we are? We spend our lives (time) finding alternate paper to get the same thing. In the end they can deny you everything just by pointing their guns at you. period. kick and scream about your rights, to no avail.
    Each situation we face teaches us something different about How little we really know after all.
    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    I suspect it might be helpful to present a claim of right to travel to the sheriff and the state AG (maybe even the chief judge of the nearest USDC) and carry a copy with you with along with cc and proof of service (+case jacket?). So then it might become a matter of TSA vs your sheriff and your state AG. You could also fill out the TSA Certificate of Identity and fax it to the TSA along with your claim of right and carry all of the the above with you.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    So you have all these alternate forms with you, it seems a bit Amish (it's ok to use air powered tools but not electric), as in it's ok to have reams of other paperwork but one simple document which you know isn't you, is Bad? How far do we have to go to to prove we know who we are? We spend our lives (time) finding alternate paper to get the same thing. In the end they can deny you everything just by pointing their guns at you. period. kick and scream about your rights, to no avail.
    Each situation we face teaches us something different about How little we really know after all.
    Sounds like you are misconstruing things rather wildly. TSA has a form titled Certificate of Identity. How is using their form is an alternative form? Alternative to what? "Papering" and nonsense? Well IMHO its (i.e. their form) a good alternative to what you are presuming. Its their (the U.S. DHS, a U.S. executive department headed by a member of the POTUS' cabinet and you have a problem with it because I mention that they made it available?) process.

    The "novelty" possibility I mentioned was whereby one gives notice and 'register' with TSA ahead of time rather than wasting time at the airport. I only mentioned the possibility of sending it AHEAD OF TIME BEFORE ONE GOES TO THE AIRPORT and the possibility of asserting the claim of right to travel and distinguishing oneself from, say, someone breaking terms of probation.

    What do you think the DMV does when you get a driver's license? They publish the information to their electronic subscribers some of which are called "police departments". Pretty cool, huh? Its electric so I'm not sure if the Amish would dig it. Of course, persons who have driver's licenses and state ID can simply show that but not everyone has such things.

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    The TSA form is a total of ONE whole page. Of course you could make up a 1-page certificate very similar, incorporate your claim of right to travel or make transit in the same document and serve it on the Director of DHS and your State AG for the purpose of helping them do their job easier. What harm is in that? As a separate document, a claim of right might take up no more than a one or two pages if double spaced or the like with headings, signature area, notarial jurat, etc. Two whole sheets of paper is a ream of paper how?

    You seem to be presuming somewhere to be a suggestion about idiotically "papering" like a maniac and writing documents where one goes on and on on about nonsense like how you're gonna take someone's dog's bowl if they violate your rights. Claiming and asserting the right to travel by any manner, method of transportation without hindrance can probably be done one to three sentences. No need to threaten anyone--you mistook this for something else, Tim. The notary block and the header would probably take up most of the page if you do a separate claim document. The few sentences to make the claim without any threats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    How far do we have to go to to prove we know who we are? We spend our lives (time) finding alternate paper to get the same thing. In the end they can deny you everything just by pointing their guns at you. period. kick and scream about your rights, to no avail. Each situation we face teaches us something different about How little we really know after all.
    Again, who mentioned alternative paper? Its the TSA's and Deparment of Transportation's form. For those don't have a state ID or a driver's license they provided a form to help them out. A claim of right filed with State AG or a U.S. District Court is alternative paper how where by one would are simply peacefully asserting rights so one avoids lose them vestigially? Doing things ahead of time might help avoid wasting your time or theirs in a stressful airport situation instead of trying to have a philosophy of law class in a busy smelly airport.

    As for them "just by pointing their guns at you" I've seen them do it to people who had ID and without any lawful cause. So what's your point? I've seen people abducted (by persons disguised as police--yes disguised because abduction isn't a police power--it is not an arrest) all because some gay dude was in love with a a straight man and was blind with envy and hurt feelings he had someone have him abducted under the guise of an arrest and booked for SOMEONE ELSE "to teach him a lesson" for not wanting his manjam in his arse --yes the cops abducted the straight man based on the lies and coaxing of their gay buddy even though abductee had had a passport card is pocket! The cops hid the passport! A judge got in and shut it down. The booking papers showed belt, shoes, etc etc but the passport card wasn't even mentioned. He said that they pulled a gun on him while he was locked in a secure area why? BECAUSE HE WAS WRITING THAT HE WAS ABDUCTED ON THE FORM! The next day he went back to the very same lockup (police station) to get his passport and demanded the commander come speak to him and the commander did. he got his wallet, they played dumb, the "arresting officer" ran scared and... what they did was put the passport card in the deep recesses of the wallet behind structural folds not in normal places. So your point is what? Be afraid? Prefer bread and circuses?
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    Last edited by allodial; 04-07-16 at 07:20 AM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    It seems that whenever somebody is buying a ticket online there is a NOTICE that they will need government-issued ID at boarding. It may simply be a fiduciary responsibility. If they turn away business...
    I believe that's just "friendly advice", not a requirement much less an obligation. Interestingly, while the airline's contract of carriage states that a passenger may be refused transport for not producing positive identification, it says nothing requiring that ID be "government issued". e.g. https://www.southwest.com/assets/pdf...f-carriage.pdf (go to p. 15, par. 6). I've checked in many times at airline ticket counters without being asked for ID, so I don't volunteer to show them any! No problems.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    It seems that whenever somebody is buying a ticket online there is a NOTICE that they will need government-issued ID at boarding. It may simply be a fiduciary responsibility. If they turn away business...

    In Canada its in the statutes/acts.



    Canadian Aviation Security Regulations, 2012

    SOR/2011-318

    AERONAUTICS ACT


    8.2 For the purposes of sections 8.3 and 8.4, required identification means

    (a) one piece of government-issued photo identification that shows the holder’s name, date of birth and gender;

    (b) two pieces of government-issued identification at least one of which shows the holder’s name, date of birth and gender; or

    (c) a restricted area identity card.

    SOR/2012-48, s. 2.




    I use my own ID. Almost never a problem.
    If they insist on government issued then I show the COLB and Baptismal certificate.
    It fulfills section (b) requirements.
    Both are accepted to fly and both can't be used for any other public use.
    eg. you can't bank with them, can't get a DL with them, can't get a passport with them, you can't get a SIN/SSN

    The only time they wanted something more then my own ID was because they wanted a day of birth which mine didn't have.
    Once I showed a lady right before boarding my COLB and she said "Holy, this is as official as it gets"
    And at another time a lady asked what the COLB was?

    Lets focus on "government issued identification".
    Why do they require it? Besides the fact its law.
    If you don't have government issued ID then how can they tell who's liable for you?
    If you don't have it then odds are you are a stateless refugee.
    You have no inheritable rights. You have no one to take responsibility for you. So why should they the airlines be held liable for you?
    Its like when a citizen gets locked up abroad and the country of his origin comes to bat for him and takes on the ambassador role to free him from jail.

    Here is the key issue.
    They never state what government has to issue the ID.
    Only a government.
    So when you become of age and govern your own affairs, your papers are at par with theirs, and the airlines are off the hook for you.

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