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Thread: Returning back to Natural Law

  1. #11
    Senior Member motla68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shikamaru View Post
    Its called Google Books ...
    The book is titled "A Manual of Roman Law" by Daniel Chambier (1893).

    Do note on page 2 that Natural Law is classed as Private Law according to the Romans ...

    Page 3 reiterates the above with a chart.
    So is Public Law, see pages 11 and 12 of that same document. Also are you aware that Rome was a Republic?

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by motla68 View Post
    So is Public Law, see pages 11 and 12 of that same document. Also are you aware that Rome was a Republic?
    With respect to the Romans' division of law, public law is law of government and separate from its divisions of private law.
    In another sense, public law is private law to those who are its members.
    Rome ended up a republic, but it began as a monarchy. It was a republic for about 500 years.
    A republic is simply a form of government where the head of government is not a monarch.
    You are aware that a republic is Latin "res publica" or thing public ???
    Last edited by shikamaru; 06-13-11 at 03:15 PM.

  3. #13
    Artificial. As opposed to "natural", means created or produced by man. California Casualty Indemnity Exchange v. Industrial Accident Commission of California, 13 Cal.2d 529, 90 P.2d 289 Created by art, or by law; existing only by force of...[human] law. Humanly contrived. ~ Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition (c.1991), page 113

    "A mature adult is supposed to know the difference between the real world and the games people play, between the natural and the artificial. He or she is supposed to be able to keep such things in perspective." ~ Frank van Dun, Ph.D., Dr.Jur. - Senior lecturer Philosophy of Law.



    ″Natural law is that body of rules which Man is able to discover by the use of his reason.″ ~ Hugo Grotius



    What one creates, one controls, and since Natural Persons, i.e. men and women, are not "formed by human laws", they are therefore, not subject to "human laws". It is obvious, (to me at least), that I did not form myself, just as governments did not form themselves, therefore neither or us may create "our own law", we are both subject to the law of our creator. So, it took no stretch of the imagination to realize that if Natural Persons are formed by nature then they are subject to the Law of Nature, the Natural Law

    "A philosopher can choose to disbelieve in Newton's laws, but this will not enable him to fly. He can disbelieve in natural law, but political and social institutions built on false law will fail, just as a bridge built on false physical law will fall..." http://jim.com/rights.html


    “If the Coal Age promised anything thrilling to the kind of mind which thrives on managing the behavior of others, that promise would best be realized by placing control of everything important—food, clothing, shelter, recreation, the tools of war—in relatively few hands, creating a new race of benevolent, godlike managers, not for their own good but the good of all. Plato had called such benevolent despots "guardians."” http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm


    "Our legislators are not sufficiently apprized of the rightful limits of their power; that their true office is to declare and enforce only our natural rights . . . and to take none of them from us. No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another; and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him . . . and the idea is quite unfounded, that on entering into society we give up any natural right." ~ Thomas Jefferson


    Natural Rights clause of the New Hampshire Constitution.
    http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/organic/1784-nhr.htm
    [Art.] II. [Natural Rights.] All men* have certain natural, essential, and inherent rights - among which are, the enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing, and protecting, property; and, in a word, of seeking and obtaining happiness.

    *It is important to note that, all "men" [humans] have natural rights, not all "persons" or "citizens". Governments give "citizens" civil rights and/or political rights; Natural Rights are "inherent rights".



    In The New History of America, the case of Cruden v. Neale, where the court states a principle of natural law so clear that it cannot be twisted by any lawyer, that man is only bound by the laws of nature. Here is what the court stated:

    "...That the majority shall prevail is a rule posterior to the formation of government, and results from it. IT IS NOT A RULE BINDING UPON MANKIND IN THEIR NATURAL STATE. THERE, EVERY MAN IS INDEPENDENT OF ALL LAWS, EXCEPT THOSE PRESCRIBED BY NATURE.. He is not bound by any institutions formed by his fellowmen without his consent." ~ CRUDEN v. NEALE, 2 N.C. 338 (1796) 2 S.E. 70 Excerpted from an article entitled HOW "CITIZENS" ARE TRANSFORMED INTO "PERSONS" found HERE>
    http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Taxe...tToPersons.htm




    In a true[1] republic “...the rule of law limits the authority of men exercising governmental power.”

    Quod prius est verius est; et quod prius est tempore potius est jure. What is first is truest; and what comes first in time, is best in law. Co. Litt. 347. ~ Bouvier's 1856 Law Dictionary.

    Therefore, the Supreme Law of the Land is the Law of Nature, the Natural Law of Man.

    NATURAL LAW. The rule and dictate of right reason, showing the moral deformity or moral necessity there is in any act, according to a reasonable nature. Tayl. Civil Law, 99. ~ A Dictionary of the Law (Black's 1st c.1891), page 801

    Law of nature, is a rule of conduct arising out of the natural relations of human beings established by the Creator, and existing prior to any positive precept. Thus it is a law of nature, that one man should not injure another, and murder and fraud would be crimes, independent of any prohibition from a supreme power. ~ Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language.

    This law of nature, being coeval[2] with mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original. ~ 1 W. Blackstone, Commentaries at 41

    The law of nature is superior in obligation to any other. It is binding in all countries and at all times. No human laws are valid if opposed to this, and all which are binding derive their authority either directly or indirectly from it. ~ Institutes of American Law by John Bouvier, 1851, Part I, Title II, No. 9

    [The natural] law is the paramount law, and the same law, over all the world, at all times, and for all peoples; and will be the same paramount and only law, at all times, and for all peoples, so long as man shall live upon the earth. ~ Natural Law; or the Science of Justice by Lysander Spooner

    "...it is everyone's right and duty to forcibly uphold natural law..." ~ Natural Law and Natural Rights by James A. Donald
    __________________________________________________ __________________

    [1] REPUB'LIC, n. [L. respublica; res and publica; public affairs.] 1. A commonwealth...

    COMMONWEALTH, n. 1. ...A commonwealth is properly a free state...

    [2] COEVAL, a. Of the same age; beginning to exist at the same time; of equal age; usually and properly followed by with. ~ Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language



    Liberty. Freedom from all restraints except such as are justly imposed by law. Freedom from restraint, under conditions essential to the equal enjoyment of this same RIGHT by others; freedom regulated by law. The absence of arbitrary restraint, not immunity from reasonable regulations and prohibitions imposed in the interests of community. Brazo v. Connecticut Real Estate Commission, 177 Conn. 515, 418 A.2d 883, 890. ~ Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, (c.1991), page 918

    What "law" might that above modern definition be referring to? Well, that depends on what jurisdiction[1] one has consented to be under. If one does not consent to "submit himself to the dominion of a man-made government for the promotion of his general welfare and the protection of his individual rights" then he is a "man", (as opposed to a "person", i.e. a "juristic personality")[2], and is governed by the "law of nature", and he therefore has "natural liberty".

    Natural liberty. The power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, unless [except] by the LAW OF NATURE. The RIGHT which nature gives to all mankind of disposing of their persons and property after the manner they judge most consistent with their happiness, on condition of their acting within the limits of the LAW OF NATURE, and so as not to interfere with an equal exercise of the same RIGHTS by other men. Burlamaqui, c. 3, @ 15; 1 Bl. Comm. 125. ~ A Dictionary of the Law (Black's 1st c.1891), page 716
    This is the same definition, word-for-word, found in Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition (c.1991) on page 918. Imagine that, NO CHANGE IN DEFINITION IN ONE HUNDRED YEARS.

    Because natural liberty is a natural right, a "just claim" that each of us has, each of us has the prerogative, individually, to exchange it for civil liberty, (which, of course, is a civil right, restrained and controlled by "human laws"), if we so choose.

    Civil liberty. The liberty of a member of a society, being a man's natural liberty, so far restrained by HUMAN LAWS (and no further) as is necessary and expedient for the general advantage of the public [the state]. 1 Bl.Comm.125. ~ Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition (c.1991), page 918
    Allow me to take that out of context so that it may be seen more clearly, "The liberty of a member...restrained by HUMAN LAWS.
    __________________________________________________ _________________________________

    [1] "Jurisdiction, in its most general sense, is the power to make, declare or apply the law..." ~ Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language

    The default jurisdiction, if one chooses not to consent to a man-made jurisdiction, is the "law of nature". This so because, "[The natural] law is the paramount law, and the same law, over all the world, at all times, and for all peoples; and will be the same paramount and only law, at all times, and for all peoples, so long as man shall live upon the earth." ~ Natural Law; or the Science of Justice by Lysander Spooner

    [2] Homo vocabulum est naturae; persona juris civilis--Man is a term of nature; person of civil law. Bouvier's Law Dictionary (1914), page 2136

    http://lysanderspooner.org/node/59
    Last edited by Darkcrusade; 06-13-11 at 05:57 AM.

  4. #14
    Thank you for that reminder:




    Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
    Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
    Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

  5. #15
    To keep the multiple contexts straight, keep in mind also that the term 'natural law' has, of course, been tortuously manipulated by man to suit various aims and interests.

  6. #16
    And thank you for that reminder too.

    To me we simply interpret the Laws of Nature and Nature's God correctly. Paul taught the Seven Noachide Laws in Asia Minor. That is natural religion.

  7. #17
    It might be questionable as to whether natural persons are or can be a special kind of legal entity.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

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