Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 26

Thread: suggestions and insight by senior members on the W-4 form

  1. #1

    suggestions and insight by senior members on the W-4 form

    I would like to first off thank this wonderful group of minds whose regular exchange has been to my ongoing benefit in the quest for wisdom,knowledge, and right judgment.

    Secondly, I have been redeeming lawful money for approx. 6 months. No troubles with the bank, both "cashing" and "depositing" instruments, carefully and with the appropriate restricted endorsement. The minor trouble is arising from my place of exchange ("work"). I am being classified by the kind and very open minded folks at this location as a statutory employee, though they have my declaration of status/intent on file. I formerly attempted to negotiate, for the simplest of terms, due to their use of private credit and its taxation, to be classified for their benefit as an "independent contractor". Not my will or intent, but for their benefit of course. They have since been "advised",that I am most certainly an employee and should be classified as such and therefore they requested of me a W-4, which I correctly filled out and returned to them, utilizing the exemption per 12 usc 411. To date there is no problem, but a few weeks ago they requested a meeting with me where they expressed their concern for "my position" regarding "income taxes". They are not refusing the W-4 as of yet but they are requesting that I research and present to them what I perceive THEIR liabilities are should they continue to honor my claim of exemption per 12 USC 411. They are very concerned that the IRS, in the event of any controversy, will hold them liable for all "taxes". I have explained and presented to them thoroughly and in detail the remedy and function of 12 USC 411 and its alternative, private credit/FRN with fractional reserve lending and interest/usury/taxation.

    So I submit my story here to request, a sort of "what would you do if you were me?", in hopes of gleaning knowledge/tools for use in smoothing my relationship with those at the location I exchange time for credit(lawful money) with. I respectfully appreciate and thank all in advance for their replies/thoughts.

    Paul Thomas

  2. #2
    Dear Paul Thomas;

    Congratulations on your sense of patriotism.

    I think that I would apologize for the time your position has taken from the company. For one thing, the IRS cannot hold them responsible for your taxes when it is your signature on the W-4. However, the IRS can get nasty with them and you do not want that to happen.

    I know that there is a thread here somewhere that indicates somebody feels that Title 12 U.S.C. §411 entitles you to claim exemptions on the W-4 Form. I say now and said then that I do not feel this is true. Doing so puts your employer in an uncomfortable position with people who want to build a national debt in spite of the current Debt Crisis.

    You might quickly pitch once more that people should be educated about redeeming lawful money. But even so, that does not justify being dishonest about the withholdings, the number of exemptions.

    I think the best way to handle it is to offer to fill the W-4 Form out with your Demand made clear, but with the standard amount of exemptions. Fill out the 1040 honestly and show Payroll your Refund Check. Maybe they will seriously consider teaching people about redeeming lawful money - so that your company can participate in abolishing the Fed properly, by reducing the national debt.

    Discovering that you were wrong to try redeeming lawful money on the W-4 Form after you have been fired, or worse yet, to continue justifying the falsification of exemptions for years down the road while broke and maybe worse, will be a sad waste of potential prosperity. Whereas if you show confidence in the law, and especially when you get your refund of withholdings, your employer should be quite impressed.



    Regards,

    David Merrill.


    P.S. I think it is near the end of this video. I suggest that after you show your refund of withholdings that your employer may quit withholding altogether. This is based on you might be profiting and gaining on the extra cash flow sooner than after waiting for a refund.
    Last edited by David Merrill; 08-17-11 at 03:11 AM.

  3. #3
    Thank you David! I appreciate your comments and I am going to rewatch the video to see what further knowledge I can acquire. I will report on my progress. Your plan of demonstration of refund after filing 1040 may be the route I have to take, as much as I do not wish to contract in any way with the FED district/IRS.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by sportiva27 View Post
    Thank you David! I appreciate your comments and I am going to rewatch the video to see what further knowledge I can acquire. I will report on my progress. Your plan of demonstration of refund after filing 1040 may be the route I have to take, as much as I do not wish to contract in any way with the FED district/IRS.

    The real underlying problem as expressed in the first video is how in 1938 the Supreme Court ruled that the Social Security program is a valid Income Tax. Here is the 1984 Article:

    So, what changed? Two years after H.J.R. 192, Congress passed the Social Security Act, which the Supreme Court upheld as a valid act imposing a valid income tax: 'Charles C. Steward Mach. Co. v, Davis' 301 U.S. 548 (1937).
    Thank you for your comment about our minds. Maybe we can put them together to figure a way around the interaction with SSA. But for now, to have a bank account you need a SSN and for any tax reporting at all too. So employers, even for 1099 Contracting need a SSN or TIN for reporting purposes.

    However - redeeming lawful money is still for you, even if you are a corporate slave. So hang in there. Keep your job and keep the peace. Do not take up much of your employer's time apologizing but I suggest that you do apologize for dragging him into what is really between you and the IRS/Fed.


    Regards,

    David Merrill.


    P.S. I think you might want to read that thread about filling out a W-4 Form. And you can always start one so that you keep both the IRS and your employer happy - and get back your entire withholdings next year.
    Last edited by David Merrill; 08-17-11 at 04:16 PM.

  5. #5
    I have read the success story threads about the refunds, and it is really cool to see a remedy that works. You seem quite sure of the refund potential.....are there other successes out there?

  6. #6
    Yes. I have heard of quite a few.

    However the IRS attorneys are becoming acute about tax liability prior to redeeming lawful money. One instance, a banker with an evidence repository, six-figures working in two states is still waiting for refunds from one state and federal - just Silence. Federal offered him about half of his refund but he R4C'd. That was the last he has heard.

    This indicates he has the law on his side, it is a bit sad but he seems more patient about it than I am.

  7. #7
    My "place of exchange (work)" is at one of the Federal Home Loan banks (FHLB). I submitted a form w-4, not specifying any dependents, but rather I wrote in "Exempt" at line number 7. I included a footnote on the form that pretty much explained that I've opted out of Federal reserve banking.

    Several weeks went by with no problem.

    But then I received an email from the payroll department. Payroll informed me that the FHLB legal department will not accept forms w-4 (either Federal or State) with any verbiage on it that is not explicitly requested by the form. The email cited Illinois statute and IRS publications.

    Silly me. The forms w-4 is intellectual property of the State, and I have no standing to change their rules on how their forms are to be used.

    I simply filled out corrected forms, still writing in "exempt", but absent the "...demand for lawful money..." verbiage.

    All has been well ever since. No Federal or State income tax withholdings. Not a peep from Payroll or Legal.

    sportiva27, I find it odd that the employer would ask you about their liabilites should they proceed under 12 USC 411. They're asking you for legal advice. Are you a licensed attorney?

    P.S. Line number 7 on form w-4 (Federal) reads:

    I claim exemption from withholding for 2011, and I certify that I meet both of the following conditions for exemption.
    • Last year I had a right to a refund of all federal income tax withheld because I had no tax liability and
    • This year I expect a refund of all federal income tax withheld because I expect to have no tax liability.
    If you meet both conditions, write “Exempt” here . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    If the foregoing bullet points are true, then it is truthful, lawful, and legal to write in "Exempt". I suggest that you instill confidence in the employer that both conditions are met.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Anthony View Post
    My "place of exchange (work)" is at one of the Federal Home Loan banks (FHLB). I submitted a form w-4, not specifying any dependents, but rather I wrote in "Exempt" at line number 7. I included a footnote on the form that pretty much explained that I've opted out of Federal reserve banking.

    Several weeks went by with no problem.

    But then I received an email from the payroll department. Payroll informed me that the FHLB legal department will not accept forms w-4 (either Federal or State) with any verbiage on it that is not explicitly requested by the form. The email cited Illinois statute and IRS publications.

    Silly me. The forms w-4 is intellectual property of the State, and I have no standing to change their rules on how their forms are to be used.

    I simply filled out corrected forms, still writing in "exempt", but absent the "...demand for lawful money..." verbiage.

    All has been well ever since. No Federal or State income tax withholdings. Not a peep from Payroll or Legal.

    sportiva27, I find it odd that the employer would ask you about their liabilites should they proceed under 12 USC 411. They're asking you for legal advice. Are you a licensed attorney?

    P.S. Line number 7 on form w-4 (Federal) reads:

    I claim exemption from withholding for 2011, and I certify that I meet both of the following conditions for exemption.
    • Last year I had a right to a refund of all federal income tax withheld because I had no tax liability and
    • This year I expect a refund of all federal income tax withheld because I expect to have no tax liability.
    If you meet both conditions, write “Exempt” here . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    If the foregoing bullet points are true, then it is truthful, lawful, and legal to write in "Exempt". I suggest that you instill confidence in the employer that both conditions are met.
    Thank you Rock!

    I should have referred to the W-4 Form itself before talking about it.

    Sportiva;


    Last year you had the right to a full refund, even if you did not exercise it.

  9. #9

    A different perspective from a different group.

    "All corporations have to zero their books at the end of the year, so where do they get their capital money to startup the next year?"

    I worked as a CPA and as a controller (aka comptroller) for much of my twenty-five year career. I am still very familiar with Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP), which are the rules that govern the presentation of financial statements intended for the "public" users of financial statements.

    There are two primary classifications of accounts in every enterprise's GAAP books -
    (1) balance sheet accounts and
    (2) periodic income statement accounts. Balance sheet accounts retain their balances from year to year; they are not zeroed out at the close of the accounting period.

    Periodic income statement accounts are brought to zero at the close of the accounting period.

    At the conclusion of the accounting period, which usually coincides with a twelve month period, all of the transactions recorded in the periodic income statement accounts are summed. The balances in the periodic income statement accounts are brought to zero, and the net amount needed to offset them is recorded in a balance sheet account. Usually this account is called Retained Earnings. The act of bringing the accounts to zero is done with an accounting entry, usually called a "closing entry". Retained Earnings carries in it the running net profit or loss of the enterprise since its inception.

    For example, if at the close of the accounting period, all of the revenue accounts totaled $100,000, and all of the expense accounts totaled $90,000, the sum required to be recorded in Retained Earnings to bring the income statement accounts to zero is $10,000. All of the income statement accounts are brought to zero, and an accounting credit of $10,000 is recorded in Retained Earnings.

    Balance sheet accounts are not zeroed at the end of an accounting period. Cash, cash equivalents, and inventory are balance sheet accounts. As there is no real money any longer, cash and cash equivalents represent available credit that can be immediately accessed without interest charges.

    Enterprises obtain the means to begin the next year's operations with the cash, cash equivalents, and physical inventory on hand, which are measured by the amounts recorded in these balance sheet accounts.

    This does not preclude the possibility that operations could be financed with trade acceptances. However, having audited many publicly held corporations, I am not aware of any practice whereby financing is obtained through trade acceptances backed by "employment" documents such as a W-4.

    The W-4 is intended solely for use by instrumentalities of the United States.

    An instrumentality of the United States is more commonly known as a "U.S. Person".

    The submission of the W-4 indicates that the submitter is voluntarily declaring his intent to work in the capacity of a public office of the United States, specifically an office in the United States Merchant Marine.

    In actual practice, the enterprise demands Form W-4 from the worker as a condition of the labor contract.

    Thus, the enterprise declares itself to be an "employer", and brings itself under the taxes and reporting obligations of that classification, by virtue of the fact that it compels otherwise private sector workers to act in the capacity of public office holders of the United States.

    The enterprise voluntarily brings itself under bondage, and compels its workers to be slaves along with it.

    When I worked as a controller, the original W-4's were always retained in personnel files. If a W-4 had been used to obtain financing through a trade acceptance, I believe we would have had to surrender that original document to the creditor.

  10. #10
    Used to be that they had a more easier-to-grasp district structure for the IRS. Now it seems to be a bit more ambiguous. I had always seemed comfortable with the idea of settling your exemption with the local IRS and having the employer deal with the IRS. That is, if the local IRS will hold up their end, the employer being the "little, helpless girly" in the scheme of things will have to follow suit. That is: it seems a lot more sound to first establish the exemption with the local IRS or with the IRS in general. Long ago, I used notarized statements in lieu of federal forms..things like a notarized Certificate of Foreign Status and was free from withholding...and I have never, ever heard a peep or question from the IRS. I am, simply, exempt. Keep in mind that, the "employer" in the capacity of doing withholding is very much the IRS/Treasury--really. But the level of competence back at the IRS local office is probably going to be a lot higher than Jennifer the HR chic.

    What some folks do not realize is that they are exchanging substance/labor for scrip. The company is the one getting the deal not you. You're the one with what they want. They cannot pay you in lawful money so they are the one's receiving a benefit. But yet they want you to pay the tax on top of their getting a great deal by getting labor for just about nothing. This scheme of passing tax onto the employee was said to have been devised during the 1960s and 1970s.
    Last edited by allodial; 12-02-11 at 05:20 PM.
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •