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  1. #71
    Senior Member motla68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    Thank you Allodial. Believe me I will not be spending much time on it. All he does it would seem is defend his right not to be helpful.
    IF what I have given was appreciated more then I may have spent a little more time on it, but if what I have given is interpreted as nothing at all then I made a mistake of posting anything. I had seen the postings on here before joining and I knew it was going to come to this and it did, gave a friend the benefit of the doubt and it happened more then once.. so shame on me then. Like i said all was not lost, a few people did communicate to me from this group in private to let me know they get it. It is not my mission to try and save the world, just a few that were willing and able to give it a chance to comprehend. It should not be necessary to post whole books and mountains of material for the average researcher to grasp the concepts. If someone needs that much help then they probably should go get a qualified lawyer if such beast exists.
    "You have to understand Neo, most of these people are not ready to
    be unplugged, and many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."

    ~ Morpheus / The Matrix movie trilogy.

  2. #72
    It was offered as constructive criticism. What you seem to do is tease people.

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by motla68 View Post
    I have my own method of research which fairs me pretty well, no thank you.
    No offense, but your methods suck.
    You present half stories or only those which support your view (after attorning it a bit). You don't cite what you present. You hardly ever present source documents nor do cover the depth or breadth of the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by motla68
    You missed it the first time and the second time, here it is again:

    697.02 Nature of a mortgage.—A mortgage shall be held to be a specific lien on the property therein described, and not a conveyance of the legal title or of the right of possession.
    History.—ss. 1, 2, ch. 525, 1853; RS 1982; GS 2495; RGS 3837; CGL 5725.

    Florida statutes, go look and prove me wrong if you think I am fabricating it.
    Now you copied that from somewhere.
    Where is your source document? I'm sure you acquired that off the web, therefore where is the URL to this resource?

    Quote Originally Posted by motla68
    Unload on me? have you ever stopped unloading on me?
    You don't know what unloading looks like from me. Everything prior to this point was light sprinting.

    Quote Originally Posted by motla68
    I was just here asked of a friend to share some information, i did not expect the treatment i got here.
    Cut the "holier than thou" crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by motla68
    You have posted so many things of hearsay in here and have given even a lot less then I have, you claim you know something just because someone else said it and you call that research, no thank you.
    I'm back. Now I'll show you unloading!
    I'll have to disagree with the claim that "I've posted so many things of hearsay in here" and that "I have given less than you (motla68).
    I present more treatises, citations, and such on this board than you have even contemplated existed.
    Stop using the term "hearsay". You don't know what it means.
    I see you didn't answer one single question. Not that I expected you to. You know not how.

    Let's analyze an example of some of your "research" and hearsay:

    Errors are highlighted in red.
    No citations are highlighted in blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by motla68
    Commenting on what happened in 1933 and the change of that act, the limitation on gold ownership in the U.S. was repealed after President Gerald Ford signed a bill legalizing private ownership of gold coins, bars and certificates by an act of Congress codified in Pub.L. 93-373 [1] [2] which went into effect December 31, 1974. P.L. 93-373 does not repeal the Gold Clause Resolution of 1933, which makes unlawful any contracts which specify payment in a fixed amount of money or a fixed amount of gold. That is, contracts are unenforceable if they use gold monetarily rather than as a commodity of trade.

    (Source)
    Could you cite where I may find the "Gold Clause Resolution of 1933" ... or will any B.S. do?
    Where in this "Gold Clause Resolution of 1933" does it make gold clauses unlawful in contracts .... or will any B.S. do?
    These public laws... if they are public, they are published, right? You can't find a copy of the P.L.s online ... or will any B.S. do?
    Last edited by shikamaru; 12-10-11 at 11:01 AM.

  4. #74
    Errors are highlighted in red.
    No citations are highlighted in blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by motla68
    Commenting on what happened in 1933 and the change of that act, the limitation on gold ownership in the U.S. was repealed after President Gerald Ford signed a bill legalizing private ownership of gold coins, bars and certificates by an act of Congress codified in Pub.L. 93-373 [1] [2] which went into effect December 31, 1974. P.L. 93-373 does not repeal the Gold Clause Resolution of 1933, which makes unlawful any contracts which specify payment in a fixed amount of money or a fixed amount of gold. That is, contracts are unenforceable if they use gold monetarily rather than as a commodity of trade.

    (Source)
    Now let's observe the evidence in contradistinction to the "research (hearsay)" above:

    Trading with the Enemies Act of 1917
    Emergency Banking Relief Act of 1933
    Gold Reserve Act of 1934

    Executive Order 6102
    Invalidation and reissue of aforementioned executive order
    Campbell v. Chase National Bank of New York (1933)
    Executive Order 6102
    Executive Order 6111
    Executive Order 6260
    Executive Order 6261

    Default of the Fourth Liberty Bond

    Exchange Stabilization Fund

    http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showt...=5341#post5341

    If anyone finds a "Gold Clause Resolution of 1933", let me know !!!

    Now ... onward to title theory states vs. lien theory states.....
    Last edited by shikamaru; 12-10-11 at 11:07 AM.

  5. #75
    What is a mortgage?

    MORTGAGE, contracts, conveyancing. Mortgages are of several kinds: as the concern the kind of property, mortgaged, they are mortgages of lands, tenements, and, hereditaments, or of goods and chattels; as they affect the title of the thing mortgaged, they are legal and equitable.

    2. In equity all kinds of property; real or personal, which are capable of an absolute sale, may be the subject of a mortgage; rights in remainder and reversion, franchises, and choses in action, may, therefore, be mortgaged; But a mere possibility or expectancy, as that of an heir, cannot. 2 Story, Eq. Jur. 1021; 4 Kent, Com. 144; 1 Powell, Mortg. 17, 23; 3 Meri. 667.

    3. A legal mortgage of lands may be described to be a conveyance of lands, by a debtor to his creditor, as a pledge and security for the repayment of a sum of money borrowed, or performance of a covenant; 1 Watts, R. 140; with a proviso, that such conveyance shall be void on payment of the money and interest on a certain day, or the performance of such covenant by the time appointed, by which the conveyance of the land becomes absolute at law, yet the, mortgagor has an equity of redemption, that is, a right in equity on the performance of the agreement within a reasonable time, to call for a re-conveyance of the land. Cruise, Dig. t. 15, c. 1, s. 11; 1 Pow. on Mortg. 4 a, n.; 2 Chip. 100; 1 Pet. R. 386; 2 Mason, 531; 13 Wend. 485; 5 Verm. 532; 1 Yeates, 579; 2 Pick. 211.

    4. It is an universal rule in equity that once a mortgage, always a mortgage; 2 Cowen, R. 324; 1 Yeates, R. 584; every attempt, therefore, to defeat the equity of redemption, must fail. See Equity of Redemption.

    5. As to the form, such a mortgage must be in writing, when it is intended to convey the legal title. 1 Penna. R. 240. It is either in one single deed which contains the whole contract - and which is the usual form - or, it is two separate instruments, the one containing an absolute conveyance, and the other a defeasance. 2 Johns. Ch. Rep. 189; 15 Johns. R. 555; 2 Greenl. R. 152; 12 Mass. 456; 7 Pick. 157; 3 Wend, 208; Addis. 357; 6 Watts, 405; 3 Watts, 188; 3 Fairf. 346; 7 Wend. 248. But it may be observed in general, that whatever clauses or covenants there are in a conveyance, though they seem to import an absolute disposition or conditional purchase, yet if, upon the whole, it appears to have been the intention of the parties that such conveyance should be a mortgage only, or pass an estate redeemable, a court of equity will always so construe it. Vern. 183, 268, 394; Prec Ch. 95; 1 Wash. R 126; 2 Mass. R. 493; 4 John. R. 186; 2 Cain. Er. 124.

    6. As the money borrowed on mortgage is seldom paid on the day appointed, mortgages have now become entirely subject to the court of chancery, where it is an established rule that the mortgagee holds the estate merely as a pledge or security for the repayment of his money; therefore a mortgage is considered in equity as personal estate.

    7. The mortgagor is held to be the real owner of the land, the debt being considered the principal, and the land the accessory; whenever the debt is discharged, the interest of the mortgagee in the lands determines of course, and he is looked on in equity as a trustee for the mortgagor.

    8. An equitable mortgage of lands is one where the mortgagor does not convey regularly the land, but does some act by which he manifests his determination to bind the same for the security of a debt he owes. An agreement in writing to transfer an estate as a security for the repayment of a sum of money borrowed, or even a deposit of title deeds, and a verbal agreement, will have the same effect of creating an equitable mortgage. 1 Rawle, Rep. 328; 5 Wheat. R. 284; 1 Cox's Rep. 211. But in Pennsylvania there is no such a thing as an equitable mortgage. 3 P. S. R. 233. Such an agreement will be carried into execution in equity against the mortgagor, or any one claiming under him with notice, either actual or constructive, of such deposit having been made. 1 Bro. C. C. 269; 2 Dick. 759; 2 Anstr. 427; 2 East, R. 486; 9 Ves. jr. 115; 11 Ves. jr. 398, 403; 12 Ves. jr. 6, 192; 1 John. Cas. 116; 2 John. Ch. R. 608; 2 Story, Eq. Jur. 1020. Miller, Eq. Mortg. passim.

    9. A mortgage of goods is distinguishable from a mere pawn. 5 Verm. 532; 9 Wend. 80; 8 John. 96. By a grant or conveyance of goods in gage or mortgage, the whole legal title passes conditionally to the mortgagee, and if not redeemed at the time stipulated, the title becomes absolute at law, though equity will interfere to compel a redemption. But, in a pledge, a special property only passes to the pledgee, the general property remaining in the pledger. There have been some cases of mortgages of chattels, which have been held valid without any actual possession in the mortgagee; but they stand upon very peculiar grounds and may be deemed exceptions to the general rule. 2 Pick. R. 607; 5 Pick. R. 59; 5 Johns. R. 261; Sed vide 12 Mass. R. 300; 4 Mass. R. 352; 6 Mass. R. 422; 15 Mass. R. 477; 5 S. & R. 275; 12 Wend. 277: 15 Wend. 212, 244; 1 Penn. 57. Vide, generally,, Powell on Mortgages; Cruise, Dig. tit. 15; Viner, Ab. h. t.; Bac. Ab. h. t., Com. Dig. h. t.; American Digests, generally, h. t.; New, York Rev. Stat. p. 2, c. 3; 9 Wend. 80; 9 Greenl. 79; 12 Wend. 61; 2 Wend. 296; 3 Cowen, 166; 9 Wend. 345; 12 Wend. 297; 5 Greenl. 96; 14 Pick. 497; 3 Wend. 348; 2 Hall, 63; 2 Leigh, 401; 15 Wend. 244; Bouv. Inst. Index, h. t.

    10. It is proper to, observe that a conditional sale with the right to repurchase very nearly resembles a mortgage; but they are distinguishable. It is said that if the debt remains, the transaction is a mortgage, but if the debt is extinguished by mutual agreement, or the money advanced is not loaned, but the grantor has a right to refund it in a given time, and have a reconveyance, this is a conditional sale. 2 Edw. R. 138; 2 Call, R. 354; 5 Gill & John. 82; 2 Yerg. R. 6; 6 Yerg. R. 96; 2 Sumner, R. 487; 1 Paige, R. 56; 2 Ball & Beat. 274. In cases of doubt, however, courts of equity will always lean in favor of a mortgage. 7 Cranch, R. 237; 2 Desaus. 564.

    11. According to the laws of Louisiana a mortgage is a right granted to the creditor over the property of his debtor, for the security of his debt, and gives him the power of having the property seized and sold in default of payment. Civ. Code of Lo. art. 3245.

    12. Mortgage is conventional, legal or judicial. 1st. The conventional mortgage is a contract by which a person binds the whole of his property, or a portion of it only, in favor of another, to secure the execution of some engagement, but without divesting himself of the possession. Civ. Code, art. 3257.

    13. - 2d. Legal mortgage is that which is created by operation of law: this is also called tacit mortgage, because it is established by the law, without the aid of any agreement. Art. 3279. A few examples will show the nature of this mortgage. Minors, persons interdicted, and absentees, "have a legal mortgage on the property of their tutors and curators, as a security for their administration; and the latter have a mortgage on the property of the former for advances which they have made. The property of persons who, without being lawfully appointed curators or tutors of minors, &c., interfere with their property, is bound by a legal mortgage from the day on which the first act of interference was done.

    14. - 3d. The judicial mortgage is that resulting from judgments, whether these be rendered on contested cases or by default, whether they be final or provisional, in favor of the person obtaining them. Art. 3289.

    15. Mortgage, with respect to the manner in which it binds the property, is divided into general mortgage, or special mortgage. General mortage is that which binds all the property, present or future, of the debtor. Special mortgage is that which binds only certain specified property. Art. 3255.

    16. The following objects are alone susceptible of mortgage: 1. Immovables, subject to alienation, and their accessories considered likewise as immovable. 2. The usufruct of the same description of property with its accessories during the time of its duration. 3. Slave's. 4. Ships and other vessels. Art. 3256. (Source)
    Who are the parties to a mortgage?

    MORTGAGEE, estates, contracts. He to whom a mortgage is made.

    2. He is entitled to the payment of the money secured to him by the mortgage; he has the legal estate in the land mortgaged, and may recover it in ejectment, on the other hand he cannot commit waste; 4 Watts, R. 460; he cannot make leases to the injury of the mortgagor; and he must account for the profits he receives out of the thing mortgaged when in possession. Cruise, Dig. tit. 15, c. 2.

    MORTGAGOR, estate's, contracts. He who makes a mortgage.

    2. He has rights, and is liable to certain duties as such. 1. He is quasi tenant, at will; he is entitled to an equity of redemption after forfeiture. 2. He cannot commit waste, nor make a lease injurious to the mortgagee. As between the mortgagor and third persons, the mortgagor is owner of the land. Dougl. 632; 4 M'Cord, R. 310; 3 Fairf. R. 243; but see 3 Pick. R. 204; 1 N. H. Rep. 171; 2 N. H. Rep. 16; 10 Conn. R. 243; 1 Vern. 3; 2 Vern. 621; 1 Atk. 605. He can, however, do nothing which will defeat the rights of the mortgagee, as, to make a lease to bind him. Dougl. 21. Vide Mortgagee; 2 Jack. & Walk. 194. (Source).

  6. #76
    What is a lien?

    LIEN, contracts. In its most extensive signification, this term includes every case in which real or personal property is charged with the payment of any debt or duty; every such charge being denominated a lien on the property. In a more limited sense it is defined to be a right of detaining the property of another until some claim be satisfied. 2 East 235; 6 East 25; 2 Campb. 579; 2 Meriv. 494; 2 Rose, 357; 1 Dall. R. 345.

    2. The right of lien generally arises by operation of law, but in some cases it is created by express contract.

    3. There are two kinds of lien; namely, particular and general. When a person claims a right to retain property, in respect of money or labor expended on such particular property, this is a particular lien. Liens may arise in three ways: 1st. By express contract. 2d. From implied contract, as from general or particular usage of trade. 3d. By legal relation between the parties, which may be created in three ways; When the law casts an obligation on a party to do a particular act, and in return for which, to secure him payment, it gives him such lien; 1 Esp. R. 109; 6 East, 519; 2 Ld. Raym. 866; common carriers and inn keepers are among this number. 2. When goods are delivered to a tradesman or any other, to expend his labor upon, he is entitled to detain those goods until he is remunerated for the labor which he so expends. 2 Roll. Ab. 92; 3 M. & S. 167; 14 Pick. 332; 3 Bouv. Inst. n. 2514. 3. When goods have been saved from the perils of the sea, the salvor may detain them until his claim for salvage is satisfied; but in no other case has the finder of goods, a lien. 2 Salk. 654; 5 Burr. 2732; 3 Bouv. Inst. n. 2518. General liens arise in three ways; 1. By the agreement of the parties. 6 T. R.14; 3 Bos. & Pull. 42. 2. By the general usage of trade. 3. By particular usage of trade. Whitaker on Liens 35; Prec. Ch. 580; 1 Atk. 235; 6 T. R. 19.

    4. It may be proper to consider a few, general principles: 1. As to the manner in which a lien may be acquired. 2. To what claims liens properly attach. 3. How they may be lost. 4. Their effect.

    5. - 1. How liens may be acquired. To create a valid lien, it is essential, 1st. That the party to whom or by whom it is acquired should have the absolute property or ownership of the thing, or, at least, a right to vest it. 2d. That the party claiminig the lien should have an actual or constructive, possession, with the assent of the party against whom the claim is made. 3 Chit. Com. Law, 547; Paley on Ag. by Lloyd, 137; 17 Mass. R. 197; 4 Campb. R. 291; 3 T. R. 119 and 783; 1 East, R. 4; 7 East, R. 5; 1 Stark. R. 123; 3 Rose, R. 955; 3 Price, R. 547; 5 Binn. R. 392. 3d. That the lien should arise upon an agreement, express or implied, and not be for a limited or specific purpose inconsistent with the express terms, or the clear, intent of the contract; 2 Stark. R. 272; 6 T. R. 258; 7 Taunt. 278;. 5 M. & S. 180; 15 Mass. 389, 397; as, for example, when goods are deposited to be delivered to a third person, or to be transported to another place. Pal. on Ag. by Lloyd, 140.

    6. - 2. The debts or claims to which liens properly attach. 1st. In general, liens properly attach on liquidated demands, and not on those which sound only in damages; 3 Chit. Com. Law, 548; though by an express contract they may attach even in such a case as, where the goods are to be held as an indemnity against a future contingent claim or damages. Ibid. 2d. The claim for which the lien is asserted, must he due to the party claiming it in his own right, and not merely as agent of a third person. It must be a debt or demand due from the very person for whose benefit the party is acting, and not from a third person, although the goods may be claimed through him. Pal. Ag. by Lloyd, 132.

    7. - 3. How a lien may be lost. 1st. It may be waived or lost by any act or agreement between the parties, by which it is surrendered, or becomes inaplicable. 2d. It may also be lost by voluntarily parting with the possession of the goods. But to this rule there are some exceptions; for example, when a factor by lawful authority sells the goods of his principal, and parts with the possession under the sale he is not, by this act, deemed to lose his lien, but it attaches to the proceeds of the sale in the hands of hte vendee.

    8. - 4. The effect of liens. In general, the right of the holder of the lien is confined to the mere right of retainer. But when the creditor has made advances on the goods of a factor, he is generally invested with the right to sell. Holt's N P. Rep. 383; 3 Chit. Com. Law, 551; 2 Liverm. Ag. 103; 2 Kent's Com. 642, 3d ed. In some cases where the lien would not confer power to sell, a court of equity would decree it. 1 Story Eq. Jur. §566; 2 Story, Eq. Jur. §1216; Story Ag. §371. And courts of admiralty will deeree a sale to satisfy maritime liens. Abb. Ship. pt. 3, c10. §2; Story, Ag. §371.

    9. Judgments rendered in courts of record are generally liens on the real estate of the defendants or parties against whom such judgments are given. In Alabama, Georgia and Indiana, judgment is a lien; in the last mentioned state, it continues for ten years from January 1, 1826, if it was rendered from that time; if, after ten years from the rendition of the judgment, and when the proceedings are stayed by order of the court, or by an agreement recorded, the time of its suspension is not reckoned in the ten years. A judgment does not bind lands in Kentucky, the lien commences by the delivery of execution to the sheriff, or officer. 4 Pet. R. 366; 1 Dane's R. 360. The law seems to be the same in Mississippi. 2 Hill. Ab. c. 46, s. 6., In New Jersey, the judgments take priority among themselves in the order the executions on them have been issued. The lien of a judgment and the decree of a court of chancery continue a lien in New York for ten years, and bind after acquired lands. N. Y. Stat. part 3, t. 4, s. 3. It seems that a judgment is a lien in North Carolina, if an elegit has been sued out, but this is perhaps not settled. 2 Murph. R. 43. The lien of a judgment in Ohio is confined to the county, and continues only for one year, unless revived. It does not, per se, bind after acquired lands. In Pennsylvania, it commences with the rendering of judgment, and continues five years from the return day of that term. It does not, per se, bind after acquired lands. It may be revived by scire facias, or an agreement of the parties, and terre tenants, written and filed. In South CaroIina and Tennessee a judgment is also a lien. In the New England states, lands are attached by mesne process or on the writ, and a lien is thereby created. See 2 Hill. Ab. c. 46.

    10. Liens are also divided into legal and equitable. The former are those which may be enforeed iu a court of law; the latter are valid only in a court of equity. The lien which the vendor of real estate has on the estate sold, for the purchase money remaining unpaid, is a familiar example of an equitable lien. Math. on Pres. 392. Vide Purchase money. Vide, generally, Yelv. 67, a; 2 Kent, Com. 495; Pal Ag. 107; Whit. on Liens; Story on Ag. ch. 14, §351, et seq: Hov. Fr. 35.

    11. Lien of mechanics and material men. By virtue of express statutes in several of the states, mechanics and material men, or persons who furnish materials for the erection of houses or other buildings, are entitled to a lien or preference in the payment of debts out of the houses and buildings so erected, and to the land, to a greater or lessor extent, on which they are erected. A considerable similarity exists in the laws of the different states which have legislated on this subject.

    12. The lien generally attaches from the commencement of the work or the furnishing of materials, and continues for a limited period of time. In some states, a claim must be filed in the office of the clerk or prothonotary of the court, or a suit brought within a limited time. On the sale of the building these liens are to be paid pro rata. In some states no lien is created unless the work done or the goods furnished amount to a certain specified sum, while in others there is no limit to the amount. In general, none but the original contractors can claim under the law; sometimes, however, sub-coutractors have the same right.

    13. The remedy is various; in some states, it is by scire facias on the lien, in others, it is by petition to the court for an order of sale: in some, the property is subject to foreclosure, as on a mortgage; in others, by a common action. See 1 Hill. Ab. ch. 40, p. 354, where will be found an abstract of the laws of the several states, except the state of Louisiana; for the laws of that state, see Civ. Code of Louis. art. 2727 to 2748. See generally, 5 Binn. 585; 2 Browne, R. 229, n. 275; 2 Rawle R. 316; Id. 343; 3 Rawle, R. 492; 5 Rawle R. 291; 2 Whart. R. 223; 2 S. & R. 138; 14 S. & R. 32; 12 S. & R. 301; 3 Watts, R. 140, 141; Id. 301; 5 Watts, R. 487; 14 Pick. P,. 49; Serg. on Mech. Liens. (Source)

  7. #77
    Mere definitions are okay. What about the etymology of the term mortgage?

    What about the term, gage? You've heard of a mortgage. What about a vif-gage?

    The cursory information is all well and good, but what about the origin, history, development, breadth, and depth of a mortgage?

    http://books.google.com/books?id=rwc...rtgage&f=false
    http://books.google.com/books?id=nZs...rtgage&f=false
    http://books.google.com/books?id=5R0...rtgage&f=false

    What about title theory states vs. lien theory states?

    What about title theory states vs lien theory states?

    Did you see what I did there, motla68?

    There are dictionaries.
    There are encyclopedias.
    There is the etymology of the word.
    There are treatises whether legal, historical, sociological, or others.
    There are statutes, acts, rules, regulations, congressional reports, legal theories, and court cases on the subject.
    There are the instruments themselves with its writings.
    There are archives.
    Last edited by shikamaru; 12-10-11 at 11:39 AM.

  8. #78
    I presumed he was teasing us with HJR-192.

    It becomes quite obvious that mort=death and gage=promise. Mortgage is a death-promise. There arises the word debt=death.

    Fed banks buy and sell death by substitution. And in a world where peace is worthless. I read the Report from Iron Mountain on the Possibility and Desirability of Peace. I want to be quoted:


    Peace is valuable.

  9. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    I presumed he was teasing us with HJR-192.

    It becomes quite obvious that mort=death and gage=promise. Mortgage is a death-promise. There arises the word debt=death.

    Fed banks buy and sell death by substitution. And in a world where peace is worthless. I read the Report from Iron Mountain on the Possibility and Desirability of Peace. I want to be quoted:


    Peace is valuable.
    The interesting aspect concerning gage to me was the presumption it is an income producing asset.

    The income from the asset goes to pay off the mortgage in the case of a vif-gage (live gage, promise).

    Other items that interested me was who held what in terms of title, conveyance, and rights of redemption.

  10. #80
    Thank you. That is worth processing. Vif-gage.

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