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Thread: Debt

  1. #1

    Debt

    Debt

    Debt

    A debt is an obligation owed by one party (the debtor) to a second party, the creditor; usually this refers to assets granted by the creditor to the debtor, but the term can also be used metaphorically to cover moral obligations and other interactions not based on economic value.

    A debt is created when a creditor agrees to lend a sum of assets to a debtor. Debt is usually granted with expected repayment; in modern society, in most cases, this includes repayment of the original sum, plus interest.[1]
    Obligation

    Obligation

    An obligation is a note to take some course of action, whether legal or moral.
    obligation
    c.1300, from O.Fr. obligation (early 13c.), from L. obligationem (nom. obligatio) "an engaging or pledging," lit. "a binding" (but rarely used in this sense), noun of action from pp. stem of obligare (see oblige). The notion is of binding with promises or by law or duty.
    Assets

    ASSETS. The property in the hands of an heir, executor, administrator or trustee, which is legally or equitably chargeable with the obligations, which such heir, executor, administrator or other trustee, is, as such, required to discharge, is called assets. The term is derived from the French word assez, enough; that is, the heir or trustee has enough property. But the property is still called assets, although there may not be enough to discharge all the obligations; and the heir, executor, &c., is chargeable in distribution as far as such property extends.

    ....

    3. Assets enter maim, or assets in hand, is such property as at once comes to the executor or other trustee, for the purpose of satisfying claims against him as such. Termes de la Ley.

    ....

    6. Equitable assets, are such as can be reached only by the aid of a court of equity, and are to be divided,, pari passu, among all the creditors; as when a debtor has made his property subject to his debts generally, which, without his act would not have been so subject. 1 Madd. Ch. 586; 2 Fonbl. 40 1, et seq.; Willis on Trust, 118.
    Creditor = Beneficiary
    Debtor = Trustee, Fiduciary

    Debt is a trust (in more ways than one).
    Last edited by shikamaru; 07-08-12 at 03:02 PM.

  2. #2
    DEBTOR, contracts. One who owes a debt; he who may be constrained to pay what he owes.

    2. A debtor is bound to pay his debt personally, and all the estate he possesses or may acquire, is also liable for his debt.
    debt
    late 13c., dette, from O.Fr. dete, from L. debitum "thing owed," neut. pp. of debere "to owe," originally, "keep something away from someone," from de- "away" (see de-) + habere "to have" (see habit). Restored spelling after c.1400.

    owe (v.)
    O.E. agan (past tense ahte) "to have, own," from P.Gmc. *aiganan "to possess" (cf. O.Fris. aga, O.N. eiga, O.H.G. eigan, Goth. aigan "to possess, have"), from PIE *aik- "to be master of, possess" (cf. Skt. ise "he owns," isah "owner, lord, ruler;" Avestan is- "riches," isvan- "well-off, rich").

    Sense of "to have to repay" began in late Old English with the phrase agan to geldanne lit. "to own to yield," which was used to translate L. debere (earlier in Old English this would have been sceal "shall"); by late 12c. the phrase had been shortened to simply agan, and own (v.) took over this word's original sense.

    An original Germanic preterite-present verb (cf. can, dare, may, etc.). New past tense form owed arose 15c. to replace oughte, which developed into ought (1).
    A little more ....

  3. #3
    Thank you for your definition threads.

  4. #4
    (This seems as good a place as any...)

    I don't know why, but it just occurred to me that if you're holding FRN's, you're a trustee charged with using them according to their purposes as defined in the codes. Even if your FRN's are on deposit in a bank, since you're entitled to withdraw them at any time, your fiduciary responsibilities never stop.

    Now, what if you're holding lawful money in the form of FRN's? What is your relationship to the trust?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Alan View Post
    (This seems as good a place as any...)

    I don't know why, but it just occurred to me that if you're holding FRN's, you're a trustee charged with using them according to their purposes as defined in the codes. Even if your FRN's are on deposit in a bank, since you're entitled to withdraw them at any time, your fiduciary responsibilities never stop.

    Now, what if you're holding lawful money in the form of FRN's? What is your relationship to the trust?
    That is very appealing!

    The first thought is that your fiduciary duties are the same either way. Prior to the simpler verbiage we would say:



    Non-negotiable means that you can only trade up. Trading down - US notes to FRNs is illegal in that it is against the responsiblities of the shareholder or trustee. You can only redeem. Unredeeming the redeemed is only allowed if you are the Fed itself as Congress has only sanctioned the illegal behavior (criminal syndicalism) for the Fed's fractional lending. The Fed is not a federal department or agency. But its being allowed to issue stock designed to diminish and devalue over time makes the Fed an instrumentality of the US government. Look through these links for "stock" and the like. When you find it among the many links in this main case, please post it. I know it is there but have never found time to find those links that make it more clear than the main case. As I recall that is because you need a Lexis Nexus subscription to explore the links.

  6. #6
    I'll look into it. Thanks for your thought provoking reply. You always put out good posts. Lots to chew on.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Alan View Post
    (This seems as good a place as any...)

    I don't know why, but it just occurred to me that if you're holding FRN's, you're a trustee charged with using them according to their purposes as defined in the codes. Even if your FRN's are on deposit in a bank, since you're entitled to withdraw them at any time, your fiduciary responsibilities never stop.

    Now, what if you're holding lawful money in the form of FRN's? What is your relationship to the trust?
    FRNs are obligations of the United States and liabilities of the Federal Reserve.

    Am I the United States?
    My understanding is that the United States is a society, association of States.

    Perhaps 14th Amendment citizenship was designed to create new constitutors to service the debts of the United States? The benefit, of course, is tenure of the office U.S. citizen.
    Last edited by shikamaru; 12-24-12 at 11:47 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by shikamaru View Post
    FRNs are obligations of the United States and liabilities of the Federal Reserve.

    Am I the United States?
    My understanding is that the United States is a society, association of States.

    Perhaps 14th Amendment citizenship was designed to create new constitutors to service the debts of the United States. The benefit, of course, is tenure of the office U.S. citizen.
    I don't know if you are the United States, but you could be if you are a member of that private association. And don't forget that clause 3 of the 14th says the public debt of the US shall not be questioned. But remedy is provided in 12 USC 411, so one can escape servitude by redeeming FRN's for lawful money.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Alan View Post
    I don't know if you are the United States, but you could be if you are a member of that private association.
    Simple. Is a citizen a State?

    Citizens are members of the State, but are not the State itself.
    Is an officer of a corporation the corporation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Alan
    And don't forget that clause 3 of the 14th says the public debt of the US shall not be questioned. But remedy is provided in 12 USC 411, so one can escape servitude by redeeming FRN's for lawful money.
    I say there is no servitude to begin with. The servitude, if there is one, is assumed (assumpsit) as constitutor.

    One pledges them self to the public debt.

    Perhaps we will want to review the term 'volunteer'?

    volunteer (n.)
    c.1600, "one who offers himself for military service," from M.Fr. voluntaire, noun use of adj. meaning "voluntary," from L. voluntarius "voluntary, of one's free will" (see voluntary). Non-military sense is first recorded 1630s. The verb is first recorded 1755, from the noun. Tennessee has been the Volunteer State since the Mexican War, when a call for 2,800 volunteers brought out 30,000 men.
    To offer is to pledge.
    Last edited by shikamaru; 12-16-12 at 06:06 PM.

  10. #10
    I enjoy reading you. You're good at looking at things from different angles. But regarding states and citizens, I think most people assume the role of being a state bank when they begin holding FRN's. By not demanding that the currency be redeemed in public money, by default they are engaged in a private enterprise. It's voluntary, in that redemption is available, but they opt instead for using private credit.

    So the servitude is voluntary and not forced, thus complying with the 13th Amendment. They accept being 14th Amendment citizens, and become subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

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