Can God die

[Michael Joseph]

You made my point about the grammar there, but we seem to disagree as to the meaning of it.
I wonder if you are overlooking the fact that the definite article as well as some particles are joined with the noun in Hebrew, unlike in English, French and German, where they occur as separate words.
Hebrew has no indefinite article.

To put it a different way:

Q - What is that?
A - It's 'a'-'man'.

Q - Where is he?
A - 'The'-'man' is in the garden.

Q - What's his name?
A - His name is 'man'.


I looked over your study and I tried to read it, but it didn't make any sense to me.
You seem to see and read things in the Bible that I don't see and read there.
Looks like we can read the same scriptures and come to vastly different conclusions.
That's interesting in itself.

I'm glad we can agree that the flood was to rid the world of genetic hybrids; we just don't agree on how they were created.

Have you noticed how fast leaves can grow out of a rooted twig that's been under water for weeks, or months?
I can see why that dove would have found green leaves after a while of waiting and searching, even though the whole world had been under water, 15 cubits upward and the mountains were covered.

I continue to be interested in your scriptural explorations, because sometimes you come up with some gems.
I really enjoyed the anatomy paper based on Mark 8.
I'm also still wondering what you mean by "ages".
I hope that your ages theory doesn't depend on the serpent seed doctrine, because I think that's totally off the deep end.

Seeing different peoples' scripture interpretations is always interesting to me, because at the very least I figure out different perspectives.
Sometimes I even incorporate those perspectives into my own thinking.

Thank you for the interesting food for thought Michael Joseph, all your efforts are appreciated.
Bright blessings

If according to the opposing interpretation to my presentment that at the Time of Adam/Eve Cain/Abel there were just four living souls and one smart snake, then please resolve the following quandries with your interpretation:

1. What other peoples, that might find Cain, would slay him?

Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me

2. Who settled this land called Nod - Adam/Eve/Cain lived in the Garden? and Who is this woman Cain married?

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


------


I am more than convinced that the races were made on the sixth day and a specific man was made some time later [some say the eighth day] this man with specific duty to keep his blood line pure so that the Christ Child could come into this age undefiled.

shalom,
mj

p.s. The word for Serpent:

H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.

You know all the characteristics of the serpent are indeed the same characteristics of a man. Selah.

[Michael Joseph]

As a matter of fact, yes. I would love to open a discussion of the Great Tribulation.

Perhaps you or I should start a new thread if we are in agreement to discuss it?

I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on this document:

http://www.harvestherald.com/sureword/sureword_main.htm

It's a chart. One that I can't imagine how long it took to put together.

I am not a member of this group, nor do I submit it as truth. It has however caused me to give it a great deal of thought, as it is a different interpretation then I had before.

The reason for my quandary is in the group's absolute commitment to only using the Inspired texts, and their unique, albeit different conclusions based on their interpretations of the translation.

So, since that is topical, the book of study would be Revelation. Understanding that there are many Old and New Testament relevant verses to that book, especially Daniel.

Prior to discussing the Tribulation one must have fundamental knowledge of the order of events. If we are not on the same page in regard to Fake Jesus - Satan coming as Jesus - comes first to deceive the World, then we have no basis to discuss the Tribulation. Because i can guarantee we will be miles apart. Furthermore, if Rapture is believed, we are gonna have problems there as well.

Two great lies - any moment doctrine; and Rapture - insidious lies.

Else, I am game; but I would want to put on new thread. The topical books are Minor and Major Prophets, Luke 21, Matthew 24; Mark 13, Thess 1 and 2; 1st/2nd Corinthians and Revelation

[Axe]

Okay, well I don't know how to answer your precepts without getting into the study. I am not a rapture theologist, as far as Satan coming as the fake Jesus, I think that is spelled out relatively clearly. Are you saying Satan is the dragon or the antichrist, or both?

[Anthony Joseph]

If according to the adverse interpretation to my presentment that at the Time of Adam/Eve Cain/Abel there were just four living souls and one smart snake, then please resolve the following quandries with your interpretation:

1. What other peoples, that might find Cain, would slay him?

Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me

2. Who settled this land called Nod - Adam/Eve/Cain lived in the Garden? and Who is this woman Cain married?

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


------


I am more than convinced that the races were made on the sixth day and a specific man was made some time later [some say the eighth day] this man with specific duty to keep his blood line pure so that the Christ Child could come into this age undefiled.

shalom,
mj

p.s. The word for Serpent:

H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.

You know all the characteristics of the serpent are indeed the same characteristics of a man. Selah.

Your presentment could be flawed regarding the number of people in eden at the time of Abel's murder. Do we know for certaintly how old Cain was when he slayed Abel? There could have been other sons and daughters around since Adam and Eve were told to be fruitful and multiply. How many sons and daughters did Adam and Eve have and when were these children born?


The other peoples that may have wanted to slay Cain could have been relatives of Abel; why slay someone who you don't know and who murdered someone you don't know?

What is the definition of Nod?

Cain's wife could have been a sister or a niece since there could have been many decades of "being fruitful" taking place prior to the murder.

What does it mean that Cain "knew" his wife? Perhaps he had a wife already and when he left Eden, he "knew" her. It could mean he had sexual relations with her after wandering as a fugitive and a vagabond in Nod.

Just another perspective offered.

[Treefarmer]

Thank you Treefarmer. Remember that Noah's flood took one year for the waters to abate. That is to tell this former Environmental and Civil Engineer that every bit of plant life would be absolutely dead.

But look I admit I cannot prove that Noah's flood was not worldwide; it is just my opinion. Yehovah wanted the Gibbor Dead.

Kebra Negast the Ethiopian Bible goes into Great detail regarding these Giants and the children that the women bare to these Angels. I know it's not canonized; neither is nature. Yet, the Promise was given 430 years prior to the Law at Sinai; and Yet; Sodom and Gomorrah were found Guilty of Sin. Selah.

Cain was found guilty of Murder. Where was the Law? Selah.

The Man in the garden was a husbandman [farmer]; the mankind at Gen 1:27 were hunters and fishers. No farmers.

Aha, I suspected it.
We are reading different scriptures.
My Bible says that it rained and flooded 40 days (Genesis 7:12 and 17) and that it took 150 days for the flood waters to abate.

My Bible also says that the male and female which God created at Genesis 1:27 were instructed to eat seed bearing herbs and seed yielding fruit trees (Gen. 1:29).
The animals were also designed to be vegetarians, according to Gen. 1:30 of my scripture edition.
There was no killing and no death on earth from what I can tell, because everything was "very good".

Death came as a result of sin, according to my scriptures.
Even after the fall of Adam and Eve they were not instructed to eat animals.
According to my scriptures (KJV) the permission to eat dead animals did not come until after the flood, at Genesis 9:3-4.

The law, being a transcript of God's character, was always there.
It was expressed differently at different times and in different ages, according to the knowledge level of God's created beings and their need to know.

Blessings

[Treefarmer]

MJ

Your talk of various level of heaven remind me of some writing in regards to IRS cases by a man that was a Morman. Don't recall his name but some where I have a copy of his letter to a fellow that was going to trial in a tax case. He didn't heed the mans warning and ended up serving time. Is what you referring to along the same lines in regards to the various levels of heaven. He espoused Ideas about contracts we enter into before entering this plane. FB

That reminds me of the material that is presented in George MERCIER's Invisible Contracts.
George MERCIER's work is based on Mormon theology as far as I know.
Although I admit to never having read any of Joseph Smith's works.
I'm familiar with Mormon theology only from talking with Mormons and reading some of their writings.

[Treefarmer]

If according to the opposing interpretation to my presentment that at the Time of Adam/Eve Cain/Abel there were just four living souls and one smart snake, then please resolve the following quandries with your interpretation:

1. What other peoples, that might find Cain, would slay him?

Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me

2. Who settled this land called Nod - Adam/Eve/Cain lived in the Garden? and Who is this woman Cain married?

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


------


I am more than convinced that the races were made on the sixth day and a specific man was made some time later [some say the eighth day] this man with specific duty to keep his blood line pure so that the Christ Child could come into this age undefiled.

shalom,
mj

I don't think that chapter 4 of Genesis is narrated chronologically.
Daughters are often not mentioned in the OT and I believe that Cain married his sister.
Of course I cannot prove this, because the Bible does not tell us.
Cain's fear in Genesis 4:14 would have been from his own family members.

I agree that the narrative is mysterious in this regard, but I see no reason to believe that there were more than one Adam and Eve.

Interestingly, the Kebra Nagast says that one reason Cain was envious of Abel was because Abel got to marry the sister with the beautiful face, which resembled Cain's.
I don't know which parts, if any, of the Kebra Nagast are inspired.
I don't consider it good evidence.

Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden before they had children.
Who named the land Nod is not specified.
Nod means wandering.

Notice that all the names in chapter 4 are highly symbolical.
Cain means smith.
Abel (Hevel) means breath, vapor.
An interesting factoid:
The second verse of Ecclesiastes echoes Abel's name in the Hebrew. It starts out "hevel havalim".

Blessings

[Michael Joseph]

Your presentment could be flawed regarding the number of people in eden at the time of Abel's murder. Do we know for certaintly how old Cain was when he slayed Abel? There could have been other sons and daughters around since Adam and Eve were told to be fruitful and multiply. How many sons and daughters did Adam and Eve have and when were these children born?


The other peoples that may have wanted to slay Cain could have been relatives of Abel; why slay someone who you don't know and who murdered someone you don't know?

What is the definition of Nod?

Cain's wife could have been a sister or a niece since there could have been many decades of "being fruitful" taking place prior to the murder.

What does it mean that Cain "knew" his wife? Perhaps he had a wife already and when he left Eden, he "knew" her. It could mean he had sexual relations with her after wandering as a fugitive and a vagabond in Nod.

Just another perspective offered.

Anthony Joseph thank you for your participation.

Regarding this question: Do we know for certaintly how old Cain was when he slayed Abel?

Can and Abel were twins and they reached the Age of Majority at the Same time. Said another way, they reached the Age of Accountability at the Same time. I'd say the Age of Accountability for young boys is approximately 12 - 13.


Regarding this question: How many sons and daughters did Adam and Eve have and when were these children born?

I suppose Chavvah could have had 12 other sons and daughters by the time Cain and Abel reached the Age of Accountability.

Regarding this question: What is the definition of Nod?

Seems like a Name to me. If a land is Named someone had to Name it. But for the Edification of the Reader and mine too:

H5113
נוד
nôd
node
The same as H5112; vagrancy; Nod, the land of Cain: - Nod.

H5112
נד נודּ
nôd nôd
node, node
From H5110; exile: - wandering.

Where ever Cain was he was exiled from the garden. Gee, I wonder why any of Adam's Children would have wanted to leave Paradise in the Garden - talk about stupid.


Regarding This: Cain's wife could have been a sister or a niece since there could have been many decades of "being fruitful" taking place prior to the murder.

I do not accept this as a possibility at this time. For the Law of God, Torah, demands that the Slayer be presented to God the same day as the event took place; The Murderer in cold blood is to be killed immediately [in the flesh] and dispatched to Yehovah. Granted the Law of Nature was in effect at this time and now Law at Sinai.

I will also grant there is no time mentioned between Gen 4:7 and 4:8; But that would have had to be one dumb female to leave the Garden for Cain. Women are smarter than men - and they got Man hands down in regard to language and emotions. I don't see it. This seems to me, at least, to be grasping at straws.

Regarding this question: What does it mean that Cain "knew" his wife?

that is a Hebrewism that is a way of saying he had sex without being explicit. Furthermore to marry in the Biblical sense means they had sex. There is no need for any fancy ceremony that is just traditions of man and commercial process.

-----

Eth-ha-awdawm and Chavvah are kicked out of the Garden of Eden some time after Cain. Therefore, either Cain's wife is the dumbest human being to ever walk the Earth - or there were other Men and Women already existing.

[Michael Joseph]

Aha, I suspected it.
We are reading different scriptures.
My Bible says that it rained and flooded 40 days (Genesis 7:12 and 17) and that it took 150 days for the flood waters to abate.

My Bible also says that the male and female which God created at Genesis 1:27 were instructed to eat seed bearing herbs and seed yielding fruit trees (Gen. 1:29).
The animals were also designed to be vegetarians, according to Gen. 1:30 of my scripture edition.
There was no killing and no death on earth from what I can tell, because everything was "very good".

Death came as a result of sin, according to my scriptures.
Even after the fall of Adam and Eve they were not instructed to eat animals.
According to my scriptures (KJV) the permission to eat dead animals did not come until after the flood, at Genesis 9:3-4.

I am reading the manuscripts that is the basis for whatever translation your bible is.

If you know the Hebrew, is not there ample room in the Hebrew to describe the word Thought or Mind? Answer absolutely.

God must have made a mistake then. Why would he have described what you claim is a thought pattern, as Children? I never have heard tell of a man calling his thoughts Children. Have you? And in parable of the Tares the Seed there is "Sperma". Hmmm...

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

G4690
sperma

From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.


Now, I have never heard thoughts called Sperm

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

the woman - chavvah will bring forth the Christ Child; but lets us explore this thought argument a bit in light of this verse.

1. If Snake - I know plenty of women who are not afraid of Snakes.
2. If Snake - I wonder why God did not make man afraid of Snakes.
3. If Devil - I wonder why God did not give Man great hatred against the Devil
4. If Devil - I wonder why God only gave the Woman great hatred against this One.

All four are completely absurd.

so now let us go to the Woman's "Seed" for those who cannot download the Study provided:

H2233
zeh'-rah

From H2232; seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity: - X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time.

Well now that really makes a lot of sense. I will put great hatred between the woman's plants and the devils plants. No that just won't get it. Maybe hatred between the woman's oranges and the devils tomatoes? Hmmmm, that will not get it either will it? But what's this?

Children? That just can't be. Did it say Children? I believe it does say Children.

Adam and Eve were so ashamed they put fig leaves over their head to hide their thoughts/mouth? For shame, for Shame. No, I believe they covered their Groins. And God was so unhappy with their thoughts that he decided to make the womans PAIN at child birth more painful.

Wow, now that really makes sense. Not really. But why would they put those fig leaves over their groins? Oh the mysteries....not really it is actually made quite clear.


-----

Back to Noah...

Noah was perfect in his Pedigree. What, say it ain't so. There were other men and women on that Ark besides the Eight souls that descended directly from Eth-ha-aw-dawm and Chavvah.

You say preposterous right? Not in my bible friend....well lets just see about that....Our Father is awesome. Now to his Word.

Gen 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.


H1320
bâśâr

From H1319; flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man: - body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.

Now, because God made a mistake in his word he needs to tell Noah - make sure you get SEVEN of all the clean animals and TWO of all the unclean animals because you know God meant that by Two of ALL flesh he only included certain flesh.

No there were other men and women on board that Ark.

----

Regarding the Time of Noah's flood it is about one year from the day Noah went in that Ark until the day he came out of that Ark.

Gen 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

Tangent: He had been married for 100 years when the flood started. Continuing..

Animals: Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,


Mankind: Not from Adam: Gen 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Mark this date for those who want to pay close attention to Father's Word:

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.


and just so you get it - there were also non-"aw-dawm-ic" peoples who were not of Eth-ha-aw-dawm:

Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

H1320
bâśâr

From H1319; flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man: - body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.

Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

Got all the animals in and when the other peoples came in Yehovah shut the door.

Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

[Tangent: X- reference this time with Rev. 9:4 - Noah's flood = water; End time flood - Lies - 'and he opened his mouth and a flood of waters issued forth' - Lies - the time is 5 mo. = 150 days.]

H1396
gâbar

A primitive root; to be strong; by implication to prevail, act insolently: - exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

Where did it say the waters were gone after 150 days? No this word "Prevailed" means the waters were RAGING for 150 days.

Gen 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

H2637
châsêr

A primitive root; to lack; by implication to fail, want, lessen: - be abated, bereave, decrease, (cause to) fail, (have) lack, make lower, want.

abated - is bad translation - for this former Civil Engineer knows Hydrologic Systems - the waters began to runoff and that dear reader takes TIME. Considerable time. Because if it is as the average reader thinks [worldwide flood], then most of that Water would need to Evaporate.

but let us continue on to track Noah's condition and keep the time....

Gen 8:5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

Hmmm....what day again did they enter the ark? Keep track now....

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Current Time difference = 10th month, 1st day - 2nd Month, seventeenth day.....that's longer than 150 days dear reader....

but let us continue even further for God's Word does not leave us wanting and it is VERY complete.

Gen 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.


Hmmm. now what is the difference in time : 601st year 1st month, 1st day - 600th year 2nd month, seventeenth day. That seems a bit longer than 150 days friend.

Continuing....on to that one year - just to check to see if we are indeed reading the same - "Bible".

Gen 8:14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

Whoa - now that just can't be....I was incorrect. It was OVER a year.

Time: 601st year, 2nd month, 27th day - 600th year, 2nd month, 17th day.

Is to tell this scholar of God's Word that Noah was on that Ark for 1 year and ten days.


Gen 8:15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,
Gen 8:16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
Gen 8:17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh,

in case you have forgotten what flesh means:

H1320
bâśâr

From H1319; flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man: - body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.


continuing..Gen 8:17 both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

-

Death entered the World in the First Age at the Rebellion of Ha Satan.

[Michael Joseph]

I don't think that chapter 4 of Genesis is narrated chronologically.
Daughters are often not mentioned in the OT and I believe that Cain married his sister.
Of course I cannot prove this, because the Bible does not tell us.
Cain's fear in Genesis 4:14 would have been from his own family members.

I agree that the narrative is mysterious in this regard, but I see no reason to believe that there were more than one Adam and Eve.

Interestingly, the Kebra Nagast says that one reason Cain was envious of Abel was because Abel got to marry the sister with the beautiful face, which resembled Cain's.
I don't know which parts, if any, of the Kebra Nagast are inspired.
I don't consider it good evidence.

Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden before they had children.
Who named the land Nod is not specified.
Nod means wandering.

Notice that all the names in chapter 4 are highly symbolical.
Cain means smith.
Abel (Hevel) means breath, vapor.
An interesting factoid:
The second verse of Ecclesiastes echoes Abel's name in the Hebrew. It starts out "hevel havalim".

Blessings

I do not rely on Kebra Negast at all except that it is a 2nd Witness to the Giants in the Earth and the Children the Women bore to those fallen Angels.

In the Book of Enoch - included in many bibles prior to the Council at Nice - says Who is this one who cries day and night? - That is Abel who cries out for vengeance.

Stop and think of all of the lineage that would have come thru Abel that was cut-off by Cain. Murder is a terrible terrible thing.