Can God die

[Michael Joseph]

I express this post not really as a question but more like an exploration into the fundamental understandings of what is man.

I base my discourse fundamentally upon Scripture, and I shall use the King James Version for ease of Reference. Yet I shall endeavor to go deeper into the Hebrew and the Greek where greater formations are required. Also for the purposes of this discourse, the masculine shall at all times also mean the feminine; therefore, man is mankind.

Before proceeding further, I must first provide givens for this discourse. If you do not accept the givens, then we can discuss that too

Given:

1a. The Creator God created all things including Man
1. Man has Intellect - Spirit
2. Man has a Soul - His True Self - Hebrew Nephesh
3. Flesh is not Soul
4. Man's Soul has a temporary residency within Man's Flesh
5. Man looks exactly how he looked in first Age before the Katabole or Destruction [not Noah’s Flood prior to that]


Now, I put forth two questions:

1. Can God die?
2. Can Man die?

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Prior to getting into this writing, let us recognize that we live in a real world and there are power centers in this world today and said power centers are used by a few to control the many - referencing the Great Book of Zachariah - we find four horns. Horns symbolize power in Scripture - they are Education, Politics, Finance, and Religion.

Religion is the absolute worst. Because men will bow to just about anything to cling to the idea that This World is not Conclusion. Therefore one secret of the ages, is to have a secret. I can get men to follow me if I hold out that I have the answer to a great secret. And follow me they will. Just ask the Freemasons. Manly P. Hall wrote extensively on this matter.

The Scripture reflects this matter at the Great Book of Proverbs:


7:6 For at the window of my house I looked through my casement,
7:7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,
7:8 Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house,
7:9 In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night:
7:10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.


What is this subtil of heart and who is this Harlot? She intends to commit adultery - which in Scripture is equated to Idolatry. And what is this Subtil of Heart? She Guards the Secrets. Please prove me wrong.

Therefore, Religion is in this writer’s opinion the most powerful horn of power because it speaks to the Secrets. And the simple ones are content to go and be fed doctrine without any liability assumed on their part. Said another way, they will not go and check behind the teacher in the pulpit to see if they have been misled. Therefore the false shepherd can, with ease, lead the sheep into the ditch and make merchandise of them as the sheep are “willingly” ignorant by their own choosing. This is really just a self fulfilling prophecy in a way; yet, in a way it is not. Because another living soul choose to exercise power and influence over an ignorant easily manipulated people.

Woe to the false shepherd who eats the green of the field and leaves nothing but mud and weeds for the flock. These who would tell the flock that Jesus died for their sins. And, yet will give no further explanation for this claim. Let it be known that this writer firmly believes that Yehovah is One. And that Yehoshua, the Word of God = Yehovah, in the flesh came and offered up his flesh as a Passover sacrifice.


To the false shepherd I say – define “die”. And here is where I have been asked to leave most times. So again, to the gainsayers, I say define “die”. The Word of Truth says that Yehoshua, the Cristos [anointed one] died and rose. So now again to drive my point – define “die”. The competent man asks how can God die? And that question will stump most men. But not this man.


For again, what is man? Is man not Spirit and Soul? And is man actually Flesh or is Flesh just a vessel for man to reside in within this World Age [2nd]. The former heaven and earth Age was destroyed – to the disciplined ones - “Yet I shall not make a full end”….


What is God? We are told – God is Spirit. Ye shall worship me in Spirit and in Truth. Therefore what died on that cross? It was the Flesh body that was sacrificed. Tell me, please with specific reference so that I can verify with my own sources, where do your thoughts reside. Please give me x,y,z and t coordinate frames of reference so that we can measure. I’ll wait.


2nd Peter 3 indicates that Yehoshua went back to the ones held under the Torah to preach the good news – therefore did God die? Yehoshua went across the gulf to speak to those Souls who are “Spiritually Dead”. How was it that God was able to go back and give the good news to those held under Torah. I can already hear the gainsayers, boy this is far out stuff – go to the beginning and see the foundation of this writing.


Therefore God did not die. The Flesh was Sacrificed as Passover – therefore Yehovah comes thru this Age in the Flesh just as God [Elohiym] made each and every one of us do. [Elohiym is plural in Gen 1 = Yehovah and the Angels ; the Angels being you and me]


At Passover the blood was placed on the door and mantle. Just as Noah “pitched” his Ark, I “pitch” my Ark with the “a-tone-ment” or “at-one-ment” with the Ever Living. I claim the Sacrifice and Recognize the offering – I accept the offering – and I get on with my life. Yehovah Saves = Yehoshua. I express my trust by repentance - change in my way - action - Acts 5:29. Your Acts express your Trust.


So, has man died? Not one man has died. Not one. Yet there is but one Son of Perdition already sentenced to death. But even that man has yet to die. Only the Creator can extinguish or blot out of existence.

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Tangent:

Abram was traveling South from Shechem to Moreh. On the West was Bethel on the East was Ai.

Shechem - bending of the back
Moreh - [place of] Teaching
Bethel - house of God
Ai - A heap or waste

if you consider the direction of travel...

Bethel would be on his Right and Ai on his left. Since God is Spirit and Spirit goes to Intellect, by analogy, Bethel is on Right side of brain - Spiritual Man
Ai is on left side of brain - Fleshly Man

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The Scripture tells us over and over that the Spirit must control the Flesh. Therefore we are not driven by Lust but by Intellect.

Now, consider again, with new eyes, can God die? What is born of God cannot die! Unless God decides to blot it out of existence.

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

ze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Only Yehovah can blot out the Soul. Does not wisdom and intellect and knowledge come from God? Is not Intellect = Spirit?

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

The mystery is that some shall not see death. They enter into the next age and their Soul is not mortal to die; yet some will enter into this coming Age with a Soul that is still mortal to die and subject to be blotted out of existence [die].

[Axe]

Given:

1a. The Creator God created all things including Man
1. Man has Intellect - Spirit
2. Man has a Soul - His True Self - Hebrew Nephesh
3. Flesh is not Soul
4. Man's Soul has a temporary residency within Man's Flesh
5. Man looks exactly how he looked in first Age before the Katabole or Destruction [not Noah’s Flood prior to that]

Greetings MJ -

Question of curiosity; Do you recognize, or make a distinction between
the soul and the spirit?

Tom

[Michael Joseph]

Yes. The Soul is what I like to think of as the "True Me". I maintain that we were all created at the same time therefore we all are the same age in regard to our Souls. Yet we come thru this Age at different times. Therefore in the Age to come we will look youthful as we did in the prime of life.

My Spirit is my intellect.

Tangent: The false shepherds have everyone worrying about the horror of the "end of days" - yet the Scripture I read says he comes in with flattery and shall destroy wonderfully. Peace Peace Peace.

They like to claim - but, but, but the blood is as high as the horses bridle - see, your Scripture says it is going to be mayhem. My response: The Sword without and terror within.....I sing the song of Moses.

The flesh lies on the ground as the Soul "steps out" of the flesh container. And birds of heaven will feast till their hearts delight. Did not Noah send out a Raven. Did it return?

[Axe]

Let me say, I am not being argumentative, rather I very much enjoy discussing God's word
and hearing other interpretations from genuine believers.

So do you believe that the soul or the spirit, or both will experience the second death?

< Hebrews 9:27 >

Based on your answer it sounds as if you are saying the soul is the only thing that lives on.

Thanks,

Tom

[Michael Joseph]

One cannot know his foundation until it is challenged.

some may not see death. Why because they are justified in previous age - or, have received salvation in this Age.

At the shedding of the flesh bodies - the Soul is either not mortal to die or it is mortal to die based on the foregoing. If the latter there is a 1000 year period for teaching and then there is the Final Day before the White Throne.


Therefore ALL Souls shall see the death of the flesh; and, some Souls shall not die due to pre-justification or salvation; and,

Some Souls are now today and at the time of the shedding of the Flesh Spiritually Dead and the latter are now also subject to the 2nd Death. Which is the blotting out of existence....What the false shepherds like to call Hell.

The Spirit is Linked to the Soul. Else the Scripture would be nullified at Exekiel 44:25. Therefore the Soul is with the Intellect [spirit]. The two become one.

But to answer specifically the Soul is NOT the Spirit. These are separate. Yet the Spirit is linked to each Soul.

In terms of what continues and what does not well that is up to the Creator and to us by Choice. We can choose. Therefore, while the Creator can guide his plan, by and thru election - I do not accept that the Creator knows what you are going to Choose. Therefore, I challenge the idea that God is all knowing in regard to his Creation. Else why give man choice? Seems absurd that man would have choice and God would already know the choice and then insert Salvation.

By and thru Election - there is a negative part to Election. Therefore it is not left to man to judge other men in regard to Salvation.

That just does not add up to me. Yet it is left up to the Creator in regard to managing the Souls he created based on the choices they made. All actions are entered [Registered if you like] into the Book. And God decides who shall go to Hell [be blotted out of existence - both Soul and Spirit] and who shall Live on.

[Axe]

Great post MJ,

When I read someone quip about "Can God die", as if they have found the
"gotcha" that shows the inconsistency of the Bible, I see an opportunity to
correct a fundamental lack of understanding.

(I know this isn't what you were doing, I assume you were responding to the question)

The answer is much less dramatic, and in fact elemental.

The Communicatio Idiomatum

Jesus was both God and man, as the Bible clearly states.

Not half God and half man.
Fully God, and fully man.
John 1:1,14

Matt Slick explained it wonderfully;

The Word was joined with humanity (Col. 2:9). Jesus' divine nature was not altered.
Also, Jesus is not merely a man who "had God within Him" nor is he a man who
"manifested the God principle."

He is God in flesh, second person of the Trinity.

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,
sustaining all things by his powerful word," (Heb. 1:3). Jesus' two natures are not
"mixed together," (Eutychianism) nor are they combined into a new God-man nature (Monophysitism).

They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

The following should help you see the two natures of Jesus "in action":

GOD
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33).
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59).
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15).
He knows all things (John 21:17).
He gives eternal life (John 10:28).
All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9).

MAN
He worshiped the Father (John 17).
He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).
He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)
He prayed to the Father (John 17).
He was tempted (Matt. 4:1).
He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).
He died (Rom. 5:8).
He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

(taken from: http://carm.org/jesus-two-natures)

(sorry, I can't seem to get this editor to hold the above table correctly)

We know from the second law of thermodynamics and from Hebrews 9:27 that all "men" must die.

In fact the Bible is perfectly consistent on this.

There are 2 men that in fact never died according to the Bible.

"Inconsistency!" I hear the scoffer say.

To which I can only say, the end has not yet come to pass.

There will in fact be 2 witnesses that will come in the last days,
it is then that they will uphold the true, everliving word of God.

The consistency is perfect, as is the Author.

Kindly,

Tom

[Axe]

The Spirit is Linked to the Soul. Else the Scripture would be nullified at Exekiel 44:25. Therefore the Soul is with the Intellect [spirit]. The two become one.

I would agree.

I do not accept that the Creator knows what you are going to Choose. Therefore, I challenge the idea that God is all knowing in regard to his Creation. Else why give man choice? Seems absurd that man would have choice and God would already know the choice and then insert Salvation.

I believe the Bible IS the word of God, as it is written,
so it is. Therefore I have to disagree here.

God is omniscient (all knowing).
(Psalm 139:2-6; Isaiah 40:13-14)

If He says something that doesn't make sense to me,
it is my ability to understand that is lacking.

Kindly,

Tom

[Metheist]

The answer is much less dramatic, and in fact elemental.

The Communicatio Idiomatum

Jesus was both God and man, as the Bible clearly states.

Not half God and half man.
Fully God, and fully man.
John 1:1,14

So God died on the cross?

Or, at what point did Jesus stop being God, just long enough to die?

[Axe]

Hello Methiest!

It seems through your sarcasm that you are being argumentative, but
it is possible that you didn't read the original post.

What is God? We are told – God is Spirit. Ye shall worship me in Spirit and in Truth. Therefore what died on that cross? It was the Flesh body that was sacrificed. Tell me, please with specific reference so that I can verify with my own sources, where do your thoughts reside. Please give me x,y,z and t coordinate frames of reference so that we can measure. I’ll wait.

The same as anyone that dies, that is not the end of them.

It has been said, we will all live forever, the only question is
where each will spend their eternity.

It seems your issue is that you do not believe there is any
part of us that lives on after we die. If that is your belief,
then of course you will not accept the explanation.

If you do believe that we live on, I don't understand what
you question could be.

You can shout from the rooftop "there is no gravity!"

But the results will be the same when you jump off the roof,
regardless of your "belief".

Kindly,

Tom

[Michael Joseph]

The poet writes:

This World is not Conclusion.
A Species stands beyond --
Invisible, as Music --
But positive, as Sound --


Realize that we live in a world that has been Churched to death. The Preacher standing in his pulpit spouting lies - or at a minimum half truths in ignorance - and competent men laugh when one approaches and says - Jesus Loves You. Well no duh. Time to get off the milk baby. It is time that ye be teachers and here we find those still on the milk. So a competent thinking man discerns the half truth and either is repulsed or tries to see thru the lie.

The nephew of Sigmund Freud laughing at the masses who trust in titles such as Doctor of this or Professor of that. Yet the flock are fleeced by a slick in a fancy robe and a large pulpit - who preaches feel good doctrine without a lick of meat from Scripture. No wonder the intelligent laugh at the Christians. Most who call themselves by that name are so damn ignorant they have not a bit of a clue there are two Jesus'. And most will be as the five virgins found wantiing and without the wedding feast. For they follow flyaway doctrines and gloom and doom end of days doctrines - everything and anything to tickle their ears. To think - well that hurts. Who needs to think when we have pastor.

Fact is the foregoing initial post is my foundational thoughts - I can post and defend that position because it is my position. I care not for this man and that man - that is how we ended up with these re-ligions that plague the world with this trite doctrine and that - remember the five loaves and two fishes - afterwards there were twelve baskets full of fragments - one for each of the twelve tribes. The WASP flies back and forth to the fig tree (smyrna and goat - female and male) and yet that dumb WASP and yes I mean it the way it was intended to mean in this generation - has no clue of what is in the Scripture.

God cannot die. Nor can man absent the express force of God.

How can I be saved asked the Pharisee - Come thru the waters of a woman and be born from the Spirit above. And everyone that is Born of God cannot die and cannot sin. Why? Because it is God that justifieth. And the Word of Truth states that all sin leads to death.

Yet how am I to judge another man. That is the role of God. So I say live and let live. For I cannot save any man - even myself. But I can choose this day the way of life - for me and me only.

So one asks - Can God die? Absurd.

Then another asks can Jesus die? Again, there are those who have no foundational belief that the Scripture is the Word of God. As such, Can God die or Can Jesus die has no value or significance to that one. So be it.

Yet, Yehoshua or Yehovah Saves cannot die just as no man has died. Yet again the Flesh dies. And the Sacrifice was the Flesh. As David my beloved picked up those five smooth stones from the brook - five senses.

And Abraham recognizes that on his left brain is Ai - a waste heap in comparison to the right side of his brain - Bethel - House of God. Where the Spirit man dwells.

And this now goes to Identity. Who are you? The entire foregoing is based in belief - in Faith - in Hope and in Love for my fellow brother not wishing to trespass upon his foundations or oppress him with my doctrine; but to engage in a simple discussion - Can God die. And the answer is emphatically - No.

The Scripture is the basis of this presentment. Therefore, Yehoshua never stopped being God, in Spirit - and the Flesh, the clay, returned to the Earth.

God is Spirit. And Yehoshua is a manifestation of God in Flesh. The Spirit of God within the Flesh vessel.

Yet do not kid yourself. Yehoshua was tempted just like everyman was tempted. And the Sons of Cain by and thru their father Ha Satan - did in fact bruise Yehoshua's heel - Gen 3:15; yet Yehoshua shall bruise Ha Satan's head - blot out of existence - and Yehoshua was not forced to do anything - he allowed it to occur. Even praying that that cup of vengeance not be poured out - but knowing there is no other way - in righteousness. Man has Choice.