Can God die

[Michael Joseph]

Let me say, I am not being argumentative, rather I very much enjoy discussing God's word
and hearing other interpretations from genuine believers.

So do you believe that the soul or the spirit, or both will experience the second death?

< Hebrews 9:27 >

Based on your answer it sounds as if you are saying the soul is the only thing that lives on.

Thanks,

Tom

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


It is appointed that men should die in this Age once - there is no RE-incarnation. One trip thru this Flesh Age and then on to paradise. To reside in paradise, yet said paradise is divided into two sections - a gulf - a chasm - that cannot be passed. Luke 16. Also 2nd Esdras. See the so called rich man was on the other side and the gulf could not be passed.

Tell me false ones - where is your Hell. Where is your power now? Hell does not exist and in reality will only exist at the end - and at the end it - for those who can read the greek - it means to be blotted out of existence.

Tangent - what kind of paradise would it be if you could hear and see your relatives and friends - burning and tormented forever and ever. What now of your fear - false ones? Go peddle it somewhere else. Did you catch the blotting out part -

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Here you must go deeper. Hell = Gehenna. And Gehenna is the waste heap and was a place to dispose of waste. Sort of like Ai = waste heap.

The Flesh must become subordinate to the Spirit [intellect].

[Axe]

Hi MJ,

Wow, With all due respect I can't tell if you're hostile or cerebral.

Did you just call me a "false one"?

Never said there was reincarnation.

Speaking of peddling, I'm shocked to
see you peddle the apocrypha, especially
as scripture. What's next, the gnostics?

That explains much.

As far as hell, reasonable men can disagree about what you say.
But that may not bother some who decide to pick and choose
what parts they believe and what parts they don't.

I believe it's as written, take it all, or have none. You can't
have it both ways.

The very example you cite in it's entirety and in context.

Luke 16:19-31

19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (That would be Abraham's Bosom)

24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I think the readers here are smart enough to decide for themselves if your interpretation of the above text
is accurate or not. The text says "Bosom", not "Paradise". "Paradise is specific as it is used by Jesus Himself.

It is clearly hell.

Important to note that this is probably before the redemption, as it takes
place in Abraham's Bosom. Before the redemption sins could just be covered,
not cleansed.

It appears you are not the only one who goes to the original Hebrew and Greek.

If you were not being hostile toward me I'm relieved, if you were,
I tried not to be as rude to you. Now I wonder if your reference in
another post WAS-P was directed at me as well.

No matter, this is a free and open exchange of ideas, which I thought
you invited in the OP.

Have a Great Day.

[Michael Joseph]

I have not directed any of the foregoing upon you Axe/Tom. I in no way was being rude to you or to your belief systems. I do however recognize that there are a great many who, while claiming a certain position [Religion] have zero clue to what they claim. Your views are your own. They are true for you and not me. Just as mine are my own. Yet our Intellect [Spirit] can be shared in a common forum.

So we disagree; great. I can see however, that I touched a nerve with you.

I in no way made any claim or argument against you, in personal capacity. Yet you seem determined to defend yourself. Why?


-----

But since you bring the controversy; lets explore for a moment:

Do you think a Soul has need of water? H2O?
There were no seas in First Age and no Seas in the age to come Third Age.

Did not Yehoshua tell the woman at the well, I will give you water to drink and you shall never thirst again?
Is not the bread and the water symbolic of Truth - God's Word?


Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

-----

Do you presume to be tormented means that he is burning or in extreme physical pain?
Perhaps this is shame? And they shall look up and see the Son of Man coming in the clouds and beg for death - "For Shame, For Shame."

Why would the man ask for a message [truth = water] to be sent to his father and brothers?

Do you suppose that perhaps to "be in Hell" might be a Hebrewism that means to be absent from God?

Yet Yehoshua went to speak to the Prisoners? Where do you suppose they were kept?

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


-----

Will you damn me to Hell if I study the Gnostics or the Apocriphal books like Enoch, Wisdom, Esdras....etc? Or what if I choose not to study the KJV at all? What if I study the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint Text? Does that qualify? Even the KJV - Romans recognizes there are many who have never heard the Word will not be found wanting on Judgment Day based on what their Natural Knowing of what is right or wrong.

-----

But in effort to stay on point - Can God die?

Btw Tom, thank you for engaging this discourse. I can tell you love to study and that is great.

[Axe]

Hello Micheal Joseph!

So we disagree; great. I can see however, that I touched a nerve with you.

A nerve? I wouldn't say that. Maybe it's just the way I reasoned it out. Thank you though for clarifying it to me. It could be that I'm "special needs" in the interpretation of "forum-style" discourse.

I in no way made any claim or argument against you, in personal capacity. Yet you seem determined to defend yourself. Why?

I saw that you had quoted me at the top of your post, (implying to me you were responding to me) and very soon after used some, at least to me, abrasive language and name calling.

Let me say, I am not being argumentative, rather I very much enjoy discussing God's word
and hearing other interpretations from genuine believers.

So do you believe that the soul or the spirit, or both will experience the second death?

< Hebrews 9:27 >

Based on your answer it sounds as if you are saying the soul is the only thing that lives on.

Thanks,

Tom

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


It is appointed that men should die in this Age once - there is no RE-incarnation. One trip thru this Flesh Age and then on to paradise. To reside in paradise, yet said paradise is divided into two sections - a gulf - a chasm - that cannot be passed. Luke 16. Also 2nd Esdras. See the so called rich man was on the other side and the gulf could not be passed.

Tell me false ones - where is your Hell. Where is your power now? Hell does not exist and in reality will only exist at the end - and at the end it - for those who can read the greek - it means to be blotted out of existence.

Tangent - what kind of paradise would it be if you could hear and see your relatives and friends - burning and tormented forever and ever. What now of your fear - false ones? Go peddle it somewhere else. Did you catch the blotting out part -

I am capable of supporting what I say (as are you), and I will. And perhaps I relish a good discussion, especially from an opposing viewpoint a little too much. I believe DM refers to it as an "echo chamber".

My experience had taught me that truth is absolute, and it will stand up against challenge. If it doesn't, it isn't the truth.

It's one thing to say that you've decided what your truth is and hold to it regardless of what evidence and challenge shows (not speaking of you specifically, many people do this). Worse to me would be someone that decided what "their" truth is without ever subjecting it to any scrutiny from any external source.

In my mind that is a sure path to dementia, or becoming a sociopath.

Anyone is capable of seeing something that I have not or realizing something that I may have failed to. I'm eager to hear all points of view in order to continually grow and perhaps find areas where my reason is flawed.

I digress.

But since you bring the controversy; lets explore for a moment:

Do you think a Soul has need of water? H2O?
There were no seas in First Age and no Seas in the age to come Third Age.

No.

Did not Yehoshua tell the woman at the well, I will give you water to drink and you shall never thirst again?
Is not the bread and the water symbolic of Truth - God's Word?

Yes, God's Word, the Living Water.

Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

-----

Do you presume to be tormented means that he is burning or in extreme physical pain?
Perhaps this is shame? And they shall look up and see the Son of Man coming in the clouds and beg for death - "For Shame, For Shame."

Why would the man ask for a message [truth = water] to be sent to his father and brothers?

Do you suppose that perhaps to "be in Hell" might be a Hebrewism that means to be absent from God?

Yet Yehoshua went to speak to the Prisoners? Where do you suppose they were kept?

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

I admit, I do not have an acceptable answer for all of that yet. This has prompted more research. I will get back to you.

Will you damn me to Hell if I study the Gnostics or the Apocriphal books like Enoch, Wisdom, Esdras....etc? Or what if I choose not to study the KJV at all? What if I study the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint Text? Does that qualify? Even the KJV - Romans recognizes there are many who have never heard the Word will not be found wanting on Judgment Day based on what their Natural Knowing of what is right or wrong.

I do not damn anyone to hell, nor does the Lord. People damn themselves.

Based on my current knowledge and understanding of the Holy Scriptures (which do not include Apocriphal books like Enoch, Wisdom, Esdras....etc) I believe that hell was never intended for man, but for fallen angels. Man puts himself where he is.

You read whatever you want. If you believe God is God, then you have to believe that what is represented as His divine word, IS His divine word. I do not believe that God would allow any plot of the devil to corrupt the one and only way man can know the heart of God.

I hear people throw stones like translations corrupted, or the Bible was put together by Constantine so it's not the real canon.

God will use whoever He wants.

The devil is not equal to God. It is not some "battle" between good and evil where two evenly matched opponents fight it out for domination of the human soul.

The devil is a created being, an archangel, under God, in fact used by God for His purpose alone.

God is in control, all is unfolding according to His will. Man's only concern is who will he follow.

But in effort to stay on point - Can God die?

No.

Btw Tom, thank you for engaging this discourse. I can tell you love to study and that is great.

Thank you for your civility and thought provoking questions!

[Michael Joseph]

those questions were actually rhetorical; yet I am glad you responded, Thank you.

If truth is universal then why must we believe? I say I have a Soul; yet I cannot prove it. I say I am; yet I cannot prove my identity tomorrow. One says 2 + 2 is 4; yet in a different frame it is not four 2i + 2j is (8)^1/2. Therefore framing and context must be known specifically in order to determine truth.

If things are universally true; then why cannot I prove the existence of my soul? I have to believe - to have faith. And my Faith is not Universal. It is MY faith. We may share a common faith; yet our truths may not be common, because they may be based on different foundations/contexts/frames.

I want you to know that I truly am not provoking you nor am I aiming my intellect at you. Here's the thing if your foundation is absent challenge how do you know your foundation is sound.

So then regarding the assemblage of books called KJV. Who did that? And why? Constantine with Pope. What, if other peoples were studying other texts they are somehow lacking. KJV is based on the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint Text. And the good ole KJ VERSION is a very good translation - very good. Yet, a student digs a bit deeper.

For instance the Book of Daniel changes from Hebrew to Aramaic and back to Hebrew. There is a reason, yet the KJV readers will Never see it.

The Book of Genesis details the fact that Satan had sex with Chavvah and produced Cain; yet find it in the KJV. The Book of Genesis details the fact that all of the races of mankind were made on the sixth day; yet a special man and his woman were placed in the garden later on - ethhaawdawm and chavvah. Yet find that in the KJV. The book of Genesis details the fact that the time was shortened to five months from seven years; in accord with the Book of Revelation; yet why has this remained a mystery? The Book of Revelation means to reveal or make known, yet I have been met by numerous men of the cloth [whatever that means] who proclaim, you don't have to read Revelation, you are gonna be out of here. To those false ones, I say, Leave me behind. i will stay and work in the field.

All I am saying is when one studies to show himself approved unto God - that one in no way is in need of a Teacher. The taught ones shall teach others. Taking the office of the fisherman. Not seeking to oppress; but to help, if the help is requested. If not, live and let live.

Of course this goes to the three earth and heaven ages and to the elect of God - pre-justification before this age and the Parable of the Fig Tree. Maybe a new thread can be started to discuss those aspects.

------

One aspect of the question can God die goes to what is Flesh? The Flesh was Sacrificed, why is this so hard [not for you Axe] for others to see? What?, they presume the Soul/Spirit died? What in my or there experience would lead them to think the Intellect can die? Of course now we are back to the problem of Soul. I cannot see you Soul. So how on earth will I be able to Identify you.

Yet the critical student already knows the answer - If you have seen the Son you have seen the Father. Which agrees with Gen 1. And Elohiym said let US make man in our Image. I look just the same as I did in first age. In the image of God made he Him. The Son looks like the Father and I look like myself [Soul] in first age.

The question that stretches the tent chords of my mind is: was the Flesh of Yehoshua with a Soul? I ask the Ever Living for grace as I try to unravel that thought. I am in no way attempting to disparage the Scriptures, I like Enoch stand before the Ever Living and say "I want to know". And the Angel told Enoch, because you want to know, I will show you.

[Frederick Burrell]

There is only one thing that won't be forgiven, what is it.

Faith is good but experience surpasses faith. I cannot convince you of who I am but I can encourage you to experience it for yourself. Know thyself and unto thyself be true.

Once you experience Self then the meaning of scripture becomes clear as another is Christed.

I travail in birth pains until Christ be formed in you. Frederick Burrell

[Michael Joseph]

There is only one thing that won't be forgiven, what is it.

Faith is good but experience surpasses faith. I cannot convince you of who I am but I can encourage you to experience it for yourself. Know thyself and unto thyself be true.

Once you experience Self then the meaning of scripture becomes clear as another is Christed.

I travail in birth pains until Christ be formed in you. Frederick Burrell

My Opinion:

not allowing the Holy Spirit to speak at the at the trials - before Fake Jesus and his minions = Unforgivable sin.

only the Elect can commit it.

Thank you for participating on this thread.

[David Merrill]

Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Not that I would wish imprisonment upon any man;

This passage shows a nearly consistent validation from Inside though. You watch the inmate go to court armed with this passage and when he comes back, he is often acquitted or his case is dismissed.

[Axe]

There is a reason, yet the KJV readers will Never see it.

I hear you say.

I like Enoch stand before the Ever Living and say "I want to know". And the Angel told Enoch, because you want to know, I will show you.

Seems to contradict yourself.

Is not the same revelation available then by your logic available to those readers of the canon?

Truth is truth. How it is revealed to each soul is unique.

My belief is not that one should not read anything else. Rather it is based on an assurance from Him
of Truth. That assurance is only available from one source.

This is not to say that all other sources are false or even unreliable, but when betting eternity with God
on a belief, I will only take as Truth that which was promised by Him.

Original sin permeates the entirety of this world and all in it. This world has a delegated ruler, but he
is not my master. He is the author of confusion and the father of lies. Therefore the "student" takes
a great risk by "accepting for value" anything from the god of this world.

There is only one work that is assured and promised to be free from this corruption.

One does not have to worship Satan to lose eternity with God. One only has to be on ANY OTHER
path than the one God has explicitly set forth.

Truth is universal. One may have to believe for a time, until science is able to show or
explain it. That it can't be proved today, does not mean it won't be proved tomorrow.

The very existence of the Bible codes supports my thesis. Taken from the original Hebrew of the Tora.

Again a simple matter of science not being "up to speed" with what God has already laid forth to
follow.

Satan had sex with Chavvah (Eve) and produced Cain.

Sure it's in there. It's called the serpent seed doctrine and it doesn't hold water.

This doctrine states that the representation of the "tree" is Satan, and Eve "ate of the tree"
being "had sex", and that explains why God speaks to her the way he does when dispensing
the Curse of Adam.

The only problem is that people who believe that leave out the one small peace of text that
tears the whole thing down.

"and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

So... what, after Eve had sex with Satan then Adam did too? C'mon.

The Gnostics should not be studied in the context of Salvation simply because they are inconsistent
and all over the place.

From the book of enoch which you quoted;

The story says that Satan refused to bow to Adam due to pride. Satan said that Adam was
inferior to him as he was made of fire, whereas Adam was made of clay. This refusal led to
the fall of Satan.

Not so surprisingly some of these are clung to by the sons of Ishmael. All go to the overthrow
of God's Holy Mountain, Satan's obsession.

No, I will not consider these with equal weight as the Holy Scriptures if I bother to consider them at all.

"Studying" such things in my opinion does not make one "enlightened", it simply garners more confusion.

Who is the author of confusion? I'll wait.

Not unlike the reason most of us are on this forum.

Through "words" or lack thereof that have imprisoned us where we are today. Who is so cunning to devise
such an empire as this? Only one with the motive, ability and opportunity.

[Axe]

There is only one thing that won't be forgiven, what is it.

Matt. 12:31-32 Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come