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Thread: Birth Certificate minutiae

  1. #11
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAMAJiPS View Post
    I still have a hard time grappling with it in my head how I can distance myself from that sheet of paper. If I do so, wont the policy enforcers then accuse me of trying to create a new/false identity or just label my alias?

    The conditioning runs deep ya know
    I model it as a TOOL that I might use to achieve a goal. I am.

    But you are right, the confusion or Babel is between the ears. I came a long way when I literally turned off the TV and the Radio and sought to fill my time with something that strengthens me. I began to STUDY Scripture. At first I did not understand. So I sought out someone to teach me. So then Confusion is dispelled and cannot find vacancy within this Temple. Got to get attuned to the right frequency.

    Identity is not the issue. If identity was the issue, then pray tell why when one is summoned to court does the court NEVER check for ID to ensure identity. consider.

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  2. #12
    Identity is not the issue. If identity was the issue, then pray tell why when one is summoned to court does the court NEVER check for ID to ensure identity. consider.
    This... this changes everything. I never even thought of that, but it did remind me of one of my favorite court clips ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwfIDv6uXZY
    Last edited by Michael Joseph; 12-22-12 at 03:04 AM.

  3. #13
    Anthony Joseph
    Guest
    The conditioning does run deep and a renewing of the mind is what we should pray to, and thank, our Creator for.

    The court is seeking first hand testimony from the living since it CANNOT use a DL, a SSN or a BC for identificaton without an express testimonial act from the living.

    Just ask the questions:

    Can the court, on its sole action, use a DL for identification of the living?

    Can the court, on its sole action use a BC for identification of the living?

    Can the court, on its sole action, use a SSN for identification of the living?

    If the answers are "NO", then what can I use to identify myself? Tell me what I can use to identify myself?

    If the court falsely identifies you by the NAME, ask, "Under what authority is that NAME being used to identify the living?"
    Last edited by Anthony Joseph; 12-22-12 at 03:15 PM.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Joseph View Post
    The conditioning does run deep and a renewing of the mind is what we should pray to, and thank, our Creator for.

    The court is seeking first hand testimony from the living since it CANNOT use a DL, a SSN or a BC for identificaton without an express testimonial act from the living.

    Just ask the questions:

    Can the court, on its sole action, use a DL for identification of the living?

    Can the court, on its sole action use a BC for identification of the living?

    Can the court, on its sole action, use a SSN for identification of the living?

    If the answers are "NO", then what can I use to identify myself? Tell me what I can use to identify myself?

    If the court falsely identifies you by the NAME, ask, "Under what authority is that NAME being used to identify the living?"
    turning the mirror back on you old boy, you say the conditioning runs deep...what about the hearsay you posit after that comment?

    the court is requesting an APPEARANCE, and you automatically assume something.

    "If the court falsely identifies you by the NAME..."

    what is the definition of APPEARANCE?

    what would you do if you find out the defn actually is a DOCUMENT.

    yes, consider that

    again, one does it to one's self voluntarily because we think it's English and it ain't.

  5. #15
    p.s. sorry, forgot something, and lest the mirror reflect back upon me, check out the New Zealand Judicature Act, for the Definition of the Term, Appearance.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by John Booth View Post
    again, one does it to one's self voluntarily because we think it's English and it ain't.
    That's called duplicity.

  7. #17
    Anthony Joseph
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by John Booth View Post
    turning the mirror back on you old boy, you say the conditioning runs deep...what about the hearsay you posit after that comment?

    the court is requesting an APPEARANCE, and you automatically assume something.

    "If the court falsely identifies you by the NAME..."

    what is the definition of APPEARANCE?

    what would you do if you find out the defn actually is a DOCUMENT.

    yes, consider that

    again, one does it to one's self voluntarily because we think it's English and it ain't.

    Actually, it was BAMAJiPS who first stated that the "conditioning runs deep..." and I agreed with that sentiment as also applying to me; I thought I conveyed that, but apparantly not well enough.

    When one goes to the court, the court simply asks questions. The response to the questions (first hand testimony) from the living, as to one's capacity in regards to the vessel/cause before the court, is the opportunity to convey one's peaceful intents by also asking questions - seeking clarity.

    Be at peace, absent claim, as charitable and special minister for the FIRST MIDDLE LAST when operating that trust vessel. The USE of that transmitting utility is for the benefit of the public good and the public trust. The appointed and/or oath-sworn trustees remain with the liability as the legal title holders on behalf of the public beneficiaries.

  8. #18
    Wow. Neato. Just discovered something new and relevant along the lines of what we've been talking about. I went to register with Alafile (Alabama's online legal filing service) because I have a followup child support case review coming up and I am done with attorneys I imagine, and they gave three options to sign up - Attorney, Account Manager, and Pro Se. I chose pro-se, as I am representing myself and am a fairly competent person. I have been reading several articles about subject matter jurisdiction, and such because I believe I was railroaded with my bogus DUI charge- I hope to be able to eventually get a void judgement because there is no plaintiff, the court lacked standing and there was no subject matter jurisdiction.
    So I learn about this thing called "in pro per" as opposed to "pro se". Now I want to use the Alafile system in pro per but there is no option there to select!!
    In pro per is a way to represent your "person" while challenging the court's jurisdiction over you! I am AMAZED! It totally affirms the identifying who you are at court.
    I find it annoying that there is no option for that in the automated filing system. I didn't realize this until now, but as SOON as you hire an attorney you admit to court's jurisdiction over you, as you have just hired THEIR officer! The same thing happens if you file "Pro Se" - all you have done is appointed yourself as the agent of THE COURT - thereby acknowledging it's jurisdiction over you!

    My oh my - what an amazing revelation!

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by BAMAJiPS View Post
    Wow. Neato. Just discovered something new and relevant along the lines of what we've been talking about. I went to register with Alafile (Alabama's online legal filing service) because I have a followup child support case review coming up and I am done with attorneys I imagine, and they gave three options to sign up - Attorney, Account Manager, and Pro Se. I chose pro-se, as I am representing myself and am a fairly competent person. I have been reading several articles about subject matter jurisdiction, and such because I believe I was railroaded with my bogus DUI charge- I hope to be able to eventually get a void judgement because there is no plaintiff, the court lacked standing and there was no subject matter jurisdiction.
    So I learn about this thing called "in pro per" as opposed to "pro se". Now I want to use the Alafile system in pro per but there is no option there to select!!
    In pro per is a way to represent your "person" while challenging the court's jurisdiction over you! I am AMAZED! It totally affirms the identifying who you are at court.
    I find it annoying that there is no option for that in the automated filing system. I didn't realize this until now, but as SOON as you hire an attorney you admit to court's jurisdiction over you, as you have just hired THEIR officer! The same thing happens if you file "Pro Se" - all you have done is appointed yourself as the agent of THE COURT - thereby acknowledging it's jurisdiction over you!

    My oh my - what an amazing revelation!
    I will limit my answer strictly to the question regarding the difference between "Pro Se" and "Pro Per." Quite frankly I am stunned by the previous answers. Both of which, while not actually wrong, are not in fact answering the question. To wit; THERE IS a very substantial
    legal difference between proceeding "pro per" (or "in pro per" or "in propria persona") and proceeding "pro se" (or "in pro se"). Understanding of these two terms is critical, especially pertaining to personam jurisdiction.

    There are two types of jurisdiction: "personam" and "subject matter" and a court needs to clearly have jurisdiction of both in order to hear a case for or against you.

    Personam jurisdiction gives a court the authority over your person or you as an individual in order to hear or try a case involving you.

    Subject matter jurisdiction gives a court the authority over the thing, issue, or activity (i.e. negotiable instrument, car collision, injury to person or property, alleged crime, etc. alleged in a complaint) in order to hear or try a case involving you.

    Believe it or not, use of the wrong legal phrase can sabotage you, jurisdiction-wise.

    Okay, let's look at the two terms in detail and in depth.

    "In propria persona." In one's own proper person. It was formerly a rule of pleading that pleas to the jurisdiction of the court must be plead in propria persona, because if pleaded by attorney they admit the jurisdiction, as an attorney is an officer of the court, and he is presumed to plead after having obtained leave (permission), which admits the jurisdiction. See Pro se. Black's Law Dictionary, 5th edition, pg. 712

    "Pro se." For himself; in his own behalf; in person. Appearing for oneself, as in the case of one who does not retain a lawyer and appears for himself in court. Black's Law Dictionary, 5th edition, pg. 1099

    Appearing "pro se" is not the same as appearing "in propria persona" as one appearing "pro se" is serving as his own attorney and thereby granting the court jurisdiction (personam jurisdiction) as all attorneys are officers of the court. As you saw in the definition of "in propria persona" above, when attorneys plead for you, they automatically admit the jurisdiction (court's authority). Attorneys are agents of the court that are used to give the court automatic jurisdiction. That's why you are always told to get an attorney for your court action and not usually for the reasons you are lead to believe; in short it's because they are officers of the court and automatically give the court authority over you and this makes things easier for the judge.

    If you or any one else wishes to argue the above points I first ask that you obtain a copy of Blacks Law Dictionary Fith edition and look it up for yourself. The Black's Law Dictionary, 5th edition, definition provides us with crucial information, especially if we are to argue jurisdiction. You see, before a court can proceed with an action against you or involving you, be it civil or criminal, jurisdiction (personam and subject matter) must be established on the court's record and this is black letter law.

    "The law requires proof of jurisdiction to appear on the record of the administrative agency and all administrative proceedings." Hagans v. Lavine, 415 U.S. 533

    "The record must show affirmatively that the jurisdictional requirements have been satisfied." Hayman v. L.A., 17 Cal.App.2d. 674

    "Once challenged, jurisdiction cannot be assumed, it must be proved to exist." Stuck v. Medical Examiners, 94 Ca2d 751, 211 P2d 389

    "Jurisdiction may never be assumed, not even by colorable claims or status or black robes or officialdom or appearances, but must be substantively proven by the plaintiff/claimant of said jurisdiction. Once challenged by any proper party the plaintiff/complaint must prove their jurisdiction in a timely manner." McNutt v General Motors Acceptance Corp., 56 S.Ct. 502

    I am not a lawyer nor is this legal advise; it is opinion
    From a message board posting.

  10. #20


    Read that a couple times to let it sink in .....

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