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  1. #1
    Wow. Neato. Just discovered something new and relevant along the lines of what we've been talking about. I went to register with Alafile (Alabama's online legal filing service) because I have a followup child support case review coming up and I am done with attorneys I imagine, and they gave three options to sign up - Attorney, Account Manager, and Pro Se. I chose pro-se, as I am representing myself and am a fairly competent person. I have been reading several articles about subject matter jurisdiction, and such because I believe I was railroaded with my bogus DUI charge- I hope to be able to eventually get a void judgement because there is no plaintiff, the court lacked standing and there was no subject matter jurisdiction.
    So I learn about this thing called "in pro per" as opposed to "pro se". Now I want to use the Alafile system in pro per but there is no option there to select!!
    In pro per is a way to represent your "person" while challenging the court's jurisdiction over you! I am AMAZED! It totally affirms the identifying who you are at court.
    I find it annoying that there is no option for that in the automated filing system. I didn't realize this until now, but as SOON as you hire an attorney you admit to court's jurisdiction over you, as you have just hired THEIR officer! The same thing happens if you file "Pro Se" - all you have done is appointed yourself as the agent of THE COURT - thereby acknowledging it's jurisdiction over you!

    My oh my - what an amazing revelation!

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by BAMAJiPS View Post
    Wow. Neato. Just discovered something new and relevant along the lines of what we've been talking about. I went to register with Alafile (Alabama's online legal filing service) because I have a followup child support case review coming up and I am done with attorneys I imagine, and they gave three options to sign up - Attorney, Account Manager, and Pro Se. I chose pro-se, as I am representing myself and am a fairly competent person. I have been reading several articles about subject matter jurisdiction, and such because I believe I was railroaded with my bogus DUI charge- I hope to be able to eventually get a void judgement because there is no plaintiff, the court lacked standing and there was no subject matter jurisdiction.
    So I learn about this thing called "in pro per" as opposed to "pro se". Now I want to use the Alafile system in pro per but there is no option there to select!!
    In pro per is a way to represent your "person" while challenging the court's jurisdiction over you! I am AMAZED! It totally affirms the identifying who you are at court.
    I find it annoying that there is no option for that in the automated filing system. I didn't realize this until now, but as SOON as you hire an attorney you admit to court's jurisdiction over you, as you have just hired THEIR officer! The same thing happens if you file "Pro Se" - all you have done is appointed yourself as the agent of THE COURT - thereby acknowledging it's jurisdiction over you!

    My oh my - what an amazing revelation!
    I will limit my answer strictly to the question regarding the difference between "Pro Se" and "Pro Per." Quite frankly I am stunned by the previous answers. Both of which, while not actually wrong, are not in fact answering the question. To wit; THERE IS a very substantial
    legal difference between proceeding "pro per" (or "in pro per" or "in propria persona") and proceeding "pro se" (or "in pro se"). Understanding of these two terms is critical, especially pertaining to personam jurisdiction.

    There are two types of jurisdiction: "personam" and "subject matter" and a court needs to clearly have jurisdiction of both in order to hear a case for or against you.

    Personam jurisdiction gives a court the authority over your person or you as an individual in order to hear or try a case involving you.

    Subject matter jurisdiction gives a court the authority over the thing, issue, or activity (i.e. negotiable instrument, car collision, injury to person or property, alleged crime, etc. alleged in a complaint) in order to hear or try a case involving you.

    Believe it or not, use of the wrong legal phrase can sabotage you, jurisdiction-wise.

    Okay, let's look at the two terms in detail and in depth.

    "In propria persona." In one's own proper person. It was formerly a rule of pleading that pleas to the jurisdiction of the court must be plead in propria persona, because if pleaded by attorney they admit the jurisdiction, as an attorney is an officer of the court, and he is presumed to plead after having obtained leave (permission), which admits the jurisdiction. See Pro se. Black's Law Dictionary, 5th edition, pg. 712

    "Pro se." For himself; in his own behalf; in person. Appearing for oneself, as in the case of one who does not retain a lawyer and appears for himself in court. Black's Law Dictionary, 5th edition, pg. 1099

    Appearing "pro se" is not the same as appearing "in propria persona" as one appearing "pro se" is serving as his own attorney and thereby granting the court jurisdiction (personam jurisdiction) as all attorneys are officers of the court. As you saw in the definition of "in propria persona" above, when attorneys plead for you, they automatically admit the jurisdiction (court's authority). Attorneys are agents of the court that are used to give the court automatic jurisdiction. That's why you are always told to get an attorney for your court action and not usually for the reasons you are lead to believe; in short it's because they are officers of the court and automatically give the court authority over you and this makes things easier for the judge.

    If you or any one else wishes to argue the above points I first ask that you obtain a copy of Blacks Law Dictionary Fith edition and look it up for yourself. The Black's Law Dictionary, 5th edition, definition provides us with crucial information, especially if we are to argue jurisdiction. You see, before a court can proceed with an action against you or involving you, be it civil or criminal, jurisdiction (personam and subject matter) must be established on the court's record and this is black letter law.

    "The law requires proof of jurisdiction to appear on the record of the administrative agency and all administrative proceedings." Hagans v. Lavine, 415 U.S. 533

    "The record must show affirmatively that the jurisdictional requirements have been satisfied." Hayman v. L.A., 17 Cal.App.2d. 674

    "Once challenged, jurisdiction cannot be assumed, it must be proved to exist." Stuck v. Medical Examiners, 94 Ca2d 751, 211 P2d 389

    "Jurisdiction may never be assumed, not even by colorable claims or status or black robes or officialdom or appearances, but must be substantively proven by the plaintiff/claimant of said jurisdiction. Once challenged by any proper party the plaintiff/complaint must prove their jurisdiction in a timely manner." McNutt v General Motors Acceptance Corp., 56 S.Ct. 502

    I am not a lawyer nor is this legal advise; it is opinion
    From a message board posting.

  3. #3


    Read that a couple times to let it sink in .....

  4. #4
    One such precondition is that of standing. http://www.bulletsystem.com/examples...ONAL%20LAW.pdf

    Non-Lawyer pro se litigants not to be held to same standards as a practicing lawyer

    Many pro se litigants will use this in their pleadings; "Pleadings in this case are being filed by Plaintiff In Propria Persona, wherein pleadings are to be considered without regard to technicalities. Propria, pleadings are not to be held to the same high standards of perfection as practicing lawyers. See Haines v. Kerner 92 Sct 594, also See Power 914 F2d 1459 (11th Cir1990), also See Hulsey v. Ownes 63 F3d 354 (5th Cir 1995). also See In Re: HALL v. BELLMON 935 F.2d 1106 (10th Cir. 1991)."

    In Puckett v. Cox, it was held that a pro-se pleading requires less stringent reading than one drafted by a lawyer (456 F2d 233 (1972 Sixth Circuit USCA). Justice Black in Conley v. Gibson, 355 U.S. 41 at 48 (1957) "The Federal Rules rejects the approach that pleading is a game of skill in which one misstep by counsel may be decisive to the outcome and accept the principle that the purpose of pleading is to facilitate a proper decision on the merits." According to Rule 8(f) FRCP and the State Court rule which holds that all pleadings shall be construed to do substantial justice."

    The district courts shall have original jurisdiction of all civil actions arising under the Constitution, laws, or treaties of the United States. 28 USC ยง 1331
    Last edited by Chex; 12-29-12 at 04:52 PM.

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