Redeeming Lawful Money on Daily Paul

[martin earl]

Sooo, the reason we can't redeem our US notes in gold is because of an emergency? I've read little on this. Where is the emergency per se, or what document specifies that, I would love to dig into it. Sooo, to be clear, US Bank notes are backed by gold (possibly the same gold coins). The US treasury can mint coins, but those coins, even though considered lawful money, aren't backed by gold...

I also have read a little bit on the trading with the enemy act from Woodrow Wilson. Somewhere I read FDR took the act even further, claiming all US Citizens were now considered the enemy. Can't back that one up though... http://www.criminalgovernment.com/docs/enemy.html

The reason we cannot redeem the gold directly is because those coins are held in trust for all those demanding lawful money redemption. With over 300 million people in the US, it would be impossible to keep the coins actually circulating. With the FRN price of gold, they would be quickly destroyed for their gold and not traded at face value.

All US minted coins are valuable, they do not need to be backed per se, because they are their own consideration (value).

As for the states of emergency, they are many and varied.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa..._November_1979

There are a few, with citations, there.

The US has been under "emergency powers" since Abe Lincoln was President. As for the trading with the enemy act, it is clear that even Abe considered international Banks a more dangerous threat to the rule of law than the Southern states.

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." - Thomas Jefferson.

"I have two great enemies, the southern army in front of me and the financial institutions, in the rear. Of the two, the one in the rear is the greatest enemy..... I see in the future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of the war." - Abraham Lincoln

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation then by deflation, the banks and the corporations will grow up around them, will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -Thomas Jefferson, The Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill, (1809)

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." - President James A. Garfield (1831-1881)
http://newsmiths.blogspot.com/2008/1...ng-banker.html

Simply put, if you are NOT demanding redemption of lawful money per 12 USC 411, you ARE "trading with the enemy".

[shikamaru]

I'm thinking now United States currency notes are indeed lawful money, but, there are other types of lawful money. Coin being one of them.

US Treasuries and agency treasuries are considered lawful money.

In fact, these are the underpinnings of FRNs currently.

Essentially, commercial paper issued by the Department of the Treasury and other US governmental agencies are the lawful money supporting the issuing of FRNs.

[martin earl]

US Treasuries and agency treasuries are considered lawful money.

In fact, these are the underpinnings of FRNs currently.

Essentially, commercial paper issued by the Department of the Treasury and other US governmental agencies are the lawful money supporting the issuing of FRNs.

It is debatable that paper issued (by anyone) backed by nothing but future promise of people endorsing it and continuing to support a system of theft and deception can be considered "lawful".

What is the underpinning of the FRN is the ignorance of the State Peon.

[allodial]

It might be worthwhile comparing..

Pay ten U.S. dollars lawful money
To the order of John Doe ...

to

PAY TO
ORDER OF John Doe

ten .... DOLLARS

As in it seems worth noting the nature of an underlying instrument and that they print the checks for you so that you can make them out for, say, "one hundred DOLLARS" instead of "U.S. dollars" or "lawful money of the United States". Perhaps contrast with a promissory note associated with a mortgage which would likely be "...in the lawful money of the United States of America".

[Anthony Joseph]

It is the difference between "lawful money" and "lawful money of the United States" we should discuss.

The former is issued by any source (conventionally and presently the private Federal Reserve Bank) declared by Congress to be "lawful money". The latter can ONLY BE issued SOLELY by the United States Treasury and it is inelastic, conforming to the biblical law of just weights and measures.

Do you endorse the former, or demand the latter?

That is the issue and it is a matter of trust.

[David Merrill]

It is the difference between "lawful money" and "lawful money of the United States" we should discuss.

The former is issued by any source (conventionally and presently the private Federal Reserve Bank) declared by Congress to be "lawful money". The latter can ONLY BE issued SOLELY by the United States Treasury and it is inelastic, conforming to the biblical law of just weights and measures.

Do you endorse the former, or demand the latter?

That is the issue and it is a matter of trust.

That is a good distinction and I also want to throw in a third thought system.

Money of Account.

There is also no definition of money of account, even though Congress will sometimes refer to it. This precept stands in case law on an interesting post-Civil War case called Trebilcock v. Wilson. It develops a subsequent doctrine that if you tender legal tender to me and I refuse to accept it, then I have waived your obligation to perform. - Meaning you get the goods or services already tendered for free. Look carefully at this Public Office Money Certificate.

Oops! Small image - it says, The Undersigned will Pay To__________________ DOLLARS of the Money of Account of the United States, as Required by Law at 31 USC §371 Pending Official Determination of the Substance of Said Money.

This plays integral role in your point AJ as §371 has been repealed in order to peg US notes to the FRNs in value.

[allodial]

Yes good points. Consider USA Constitution Article I, Section 10, Clause 1:

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts.

A restriction on States clearly. However, is the term "State" referring to members of the confederation "The United States of America" or does it mean State as territorial-State of the United States or something else? On one hand, seems the confederation members are being restricted to gold and silver coin but not so with the territorial-states or the singular state called "the United States" or "the United States of America" ? (Consider also the Coinage Act of 1792.)

USA Constitution Article I, Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power To ...
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

Note the lack of restriction on the type of "Money" for the Territorial (U.S.) Government.

The prospect of there being at least a territorial currency and a non-territorial currency seems worth pondering. The prospect of there being two types of territorial money (i.e. one 'lawful' and the other merely 'legal') might be worth considering as well. Redemption for lawful money may very well result in changing of character of the ledgering and underwriting for any given bill in circulation.

***

On topic of money of account or accounting units vs lawful money, it might be worth considering: trade dollar vs unit of account.

[allodial]

Definitions of dollar.

Definition of "Dollar"

Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 1856 Edition
DOLLAR, money. A silver coin of the United States of the value of one hundred
cents, or tenth part of an eagle.
2. It weighs four hundred and twelve and a half grains. Of one thousand parts,
nine hundred are of pure silver and one hundred of alloy. Act of January 18,
1837, ss. 8 & 9, 4 Sharsw. Cont. of Story's L. U. S. 2523, 4; Wright, R. 162.
3. In all computations at the custom-house, the specie dollar of Sweden and
Norway shall be estimated at one hundred and six cents. The specie dollar of
Denmark, at one hundred and five cents. Act of May 22, 1846.
CENT, money. A copper coin of the United States of the value of ten mills; ten
of them are equal to a dime, and one hundred, to one dollar. Each cent is
required to contain one hundred and sixty-eight grains. Act of January 18th,
1837, 4 Sharsw. cont. of Story',s L. U. S. 2524.

Blacks Law Dictionary, 1st Edition (1891)
DOLLAR. The unit employed in the United States in calculating money values. It
is coined both in gold and silver, and is of the value of one hundred cents.
CENT. A coin of the United States, the least in value of those now minted. It
is the hundredth part of a dollar. Its weight is 72 gr., and it is composed of
copper and nickel in the ratio of 88 to 12.

Blacks Law Dictionary, 3rd Edition (1933)
DOLLAR. The unit employed in the United States in calculating money values. It
is coined both in gold and silver, and is of the value of one hundred cents.
Thompson v. State, 90 Rex. Cr. R. 125, 234 S. W. 406, 408.

Blacks Law Dictionary, 4th Edition (1951)
DOLLAR. The unit employed in the United States in calculating money values. It
is coined both in gold and silver, and is of the value of one hundred cents.
People v. Alba 46 Cal.App.2d 859, 117 P.2d 63. Money or currency issued by
lawful authority and intended to pass and circulated as such. Neufield v.
United States, 118 f,2d 375, 387, 73 App.D.C. 174. The dollar of nine-tenths
fine consisting of the weight determined under the 31 U.S.C.A. § 321, shall be
the standard unit of value, and all forms of money issued or coined shall be
maintained at a parity of value with this standard. 31 U.S.C.A. § 314.

Blacks Law Dictionary, 4th Edition Revised (1957)
DOLLAR. The unit employed in the United States in calculating money values. It
is of the value of 100 cents. People v. Alba, 46 Cal.App.2d 859, 117 P.2d 63.
Money or currency issued by lawful authority and intended to pass and circulated
as such. Neufield v. United States, 118 f,2d 375, 387, 73 App.D.C. 174.

Blacks Law Dictionary, 5th Edition (1968)
Dollar. The money unit employed in the United States of the value of one
hundred cents, or any combination of coins totalling one hundred cents.

Blacks Law Dictionary, 6th Edition (1979)
Dollar. The money unit employed in the United States of the value of one
hundred cents, or any combination of coins totalling one hundred cents.

Cent. A coin of the United States, the least in value of those now minted. It
is the hundredth part of a dollar.

Blacks Law Dictionary, 7th Edition (current edition)
(No definition for "dollar" or "cent" found)

Ballentines Law Dictionary, 2nd Edition (1930 & 1948)
Dollar (dol'ar). " There is no ambiguity about the word 'dollar'." If any word
has a settled meaning at law, and in the courts, it is this. It can only mean
the legal currency of the United States, not dollars vested in lands. A dollar
is the volume of money, and is by law made a money unit value of the value of
one hundred cents. See State v. Downs, 148 Ind. 324, 327.

Ballentines Law Dictionary, 3rd Edition (1969)
dollar. The legal currency of the United States; State v Downs, 148 Ind 324,
327; the unit of money consisting of one hundred cents. The aggregate of
specific coins which add up to one dollar. 36 Am J1st Money § 8. In the
absence of qualifying words, it cannot mean promissory notes, bonds, or other
evidences of debt. 36 AM J1st Money § 8. (Emphasis Added)

American Jurisprudence, Volume 36, § 8
[T]he term "dollar" means money, since it is the unit of money in this country,
and in the absence of qualifying words, it cannot mean promissory notes or bonds
or other evidences of debt. The term also refers to specific coins of the value
of one dollar. (27 Ohio Jur pp. 125, 126, § 3), (United States v. Van Auken, 96
US 366, 24 L ed 852)

Black's Law, Second Pocket Edition (1996)
Federal Reserve Note
Federal reserve note. The paper currency in circulation in the United States.
The notes are issued by the Federal Reserve Banks, are effectively
non-interest-bearing promissory notes payable to bearer on demand, and are
issued in denominations of $1, $5, $10, $20, $50, $100, $500, $1,000, $5,000,
and $10,000. (Emphasis Added)

Title 18 § 8. - Obligation or other security of the United States defined
The term ''obligation or other security of the United States'' includes all
bonds, certificates of indebtedness, national bank currency, Federal Reserve
notes, Federal Reserve bank notes, coupons, United States notes, Treasury notes,
gold certificates, silver certificates, fractional notes, certificates of
deposit, bills, checks, or drafts for money, drawn by or upon authorized
officers of the United States, stamps and other representatives of value, of
whatever denomination, issued under any Act of Congress, and canceled United
States stamps. (Emphasis Added)

[mikecz]

That is a good distinction and I also want to throw in a third thought system.

Money of Account.

There is also no definition of money of account, even though Congress will sometimes refer to it. This precept stands in case law on an interesting post-Civil War case called Trebilcock v. Wilson. It develops a subsequent doctrine that if you tender legal tender to me and I refuse to accept it, then I have waived your obligation to perform. - Meaning you get the goods or services already tendered for free. Look carefully at this Public Office Money Certificate.

Oops! Small image - it says, The Undersigned will Pay To__________________ DOLLARS of the Money of Account of the United States, as Required by Law at 31 USC §371 Pending Official Determination of the Substance of Said Money.

This plays integral role in your point AJ as §371 has been repealed in order to peg US notes to the FRNs in value.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tips_a.../message/17135

I found above on POMC.

In the link the user states this is what it really means... ”I’m willing to pay what you allege I owe if you will tell me how to do such without breaking the law.” Really it is not allowing them to break the law and demand private money when by law they can only demand public money. " I'm assuming this only works when paying tickets, court fees, etc...

I'm just looking for clarity here, in the statute, it prohibits the courts from keeping their proceedings in anything but the money of account of the United States. Ok, well, this is the part I'm trying to understand. Obviously you can't just rip this off on a printer and hand it to someone, it has to draw the funds from somewhere, correct? Is this offered in conjunction with a FRN? Is this a contract.. that if someone accepts it, then they agree to be paid at some point in the future in this form? Subsequent currency must be in this form? By accepting this negotiable contract, they agree to discharge (in this case "pay for" because your not paying for a debt with a debt?) the debt. I'm guessing it is a catch 22, because law requires them to accept it, yet since the form of the account of the united states really doesn't exist, or it is extremely difficult to obtain and it forces them into using lawful money or the united states, the services are accepted with no actual payment. Maybe a little more on the statement, "tender legal tender?" Boy, I know I was all over the place, I actually bought the miracle on main street for further understanding, but, a few sentences to explain further what is going on here would be much appreciated...

[allodial]

(Corrected and clarified earlier post moreso. Had network issues.)