Resistance and Refusal by Banks

[David Merrill]

I did send my DEMAND by USPS certified to the Dept of Treasury, the local Fed bank, and my current bank. I received signature pages for every thing but my current bank! Dept of Treasury and local FED were my concerns.

That will suffice but Registered with integrated Certificate of Mailing is best.

[gdude]

I think most courts will accept USPS certified receipt, as proof of mailing.... You really don't need the confirmation signature, but it helps.

[David Merrill]

I think most courts will accept USPS certified receipt, as proof of mailing.... You really don't need the confirmation signature, but it helps.

You have no proof of what was inside the envelope.

[salsero]

Thank you all for all your input - it is well appreciated.

I went to Well Fargo on January 22 with my mom to open a non-interet bearing checking account. I had asked the rep to add the following to the signature card - "All transactions on this account are intended by demand to be redeemed in Lawful Money pursuant to Title 12 USC 411. All transactions with this bank will be done by Special Deposit. Nunc Pro Tunc". Needless to say the manager had no clue what this all meant. He called legal and a panic look came over his face and told us the bank would not open the account. I see KnowLaw opened this type of account in March 2011 with Wells Fargo and had no issue. So there is precedence.

Is it recommended that if the bank refuses to open the account with this verbiage that one files a complaint with the Office of the Comtroller of the Currency [OCC] - along with sending copies of this complaint to the federal and state representatives? Will the OCC bother to do anything? Tony

[David Merrill]

This demonstrates the fruit of vigilance:

I opened an account with a local bank on October 13, 2012. For three months there was not one peep about the demand for lawful money I included on the signature card (attached) or as a restrictive/non-endorsement on checks.

On Friday January 25 I received a call from the Bank Manager stating that it was new bank policy, effective February 1st, that they no longer accept a signature card with additional verbiage and no longer accept restrictive endorsements with a demand for lawful money on checks for deposit. If a new signature card was not signed and on file by February 1st, the bank would close the account.

I asked to have a copy of the bank's new policy but they were unable to provide it because it is not in writing. So I asked to have the bank put it in writing in a letter and send a blank signature card with said letter. The bank manager agreed and said a letter would be sent.

The following day, January 26th I went to the bank to make a deposit, and since the new bank policy was not in effect until February 1st, I still placed a demand for lawful money on the backside of the check for deposit. The bank manager was on duty and when the teller saw the demand on the check she asked the bank manager if the demand was ok. He said they would not accept it and suggested I strike through the demand and initial it.

I said I'd wait for the letter with the bank policy in writing before making any changes to the written demand on the check. The banking manager said he had talked to his supervisor and that they had nothing to put in writing so I would not be receiving a letter. He then handed my a blank signature card to sign before the February 1st date when they would close the account if a new one was not on record without the demand.

So I provided the bank manager and the teller with a verbal demand for lawful money and then struck through the demand on the back side of the check.

I left after the deposit was made with the blank signature card for me to sign and return before February 1st.

Turns out I didn't accept their request to sign a new signature card and the attached Signature Card with the Demand for lawful money is still on record at the bank. The account is still open and yesterday [2/9/13], when I made the third deposit since the February 1st date, the bank manager was there to witness that I have overcome.

Nickname

What I like to add is that the suitor likely requested a copy of that check that he struck through the Demand. That way he had evidence of his demand just the same - probably better testimony and an indictment against the bank manager!

[David Merrill]

For a short while I was employed editing tariffs for LD phone companies. I think that all government regulated companies have a custom form called a tariff. The tariffs for banks are likely 3-ring binders some 75 pages in length.

I recall one suitor asked the bank manager for the tariff and it took them a half hour to "find" it for him. He was allowed to peruse through the bank's tariff while sitting in the lobby.

I commend the above suitor for rejecting the bank has a new policy - just not in writing!

[gdude]

Congrats on the sig card. I refused to come in and sign a new one and US bank closed my account. They have a clause buried in their contract that states that they can close the account for any reason. Hopefully your bank doesn't have such a clause and they will allow it to remain open.

I noticed the psuedo W-9 with the U.S. person (a flowthrough entity that handles US earned income (taxable income) being paid to a foreign entity) which leads me to ask these questions.

1. Does making your DEMAND for lawful money override the presumptions of the U.S. person?

2. Is every bank account holder a U.S. person?

3. Is it possible to open a bank account and be a non-U.S. person?

[David Merrill]

Congrats on the sig card. I refused to come in and sign a new one and US bank closed my account. They have a clause buried in their contract that states that they can close the account for any reason. Hopefully your bank doesn't have such a clause and they will allow it to remain open.

I noticed the psuedo W-9 with the U.S. person (a flowthrough entity that handles US earned income (taxable income) being paid to a foreign entity) which leads me to ask these questions.

1. Does making your DEMAND for lawful money override the presumptions of the U.S. person?

2. Is every bank account holder a U.S. person?

3. Is it possible to open a bank account and be a non-U.S. person?

That is why it is important to note at the top, only one signature is required. So you sign only one clause or the other.

P.S. Or possibly that means that only the Agreement needs to be signed. The lower portion is voluntary.

[gdude]

That is why it is important to note at the top, only one signature is required. So you sign only one clause or the other.

P.S. Or possibly that means that only the Agreement needs to be signed. The lower portion is voluntary.

Huh? I don't understand your post......I only signed once.

The Banks terms of agreement had the clause, not the signature card.

[Chex]

which leads me to ask these questions.

1. Does making your DEMAND for lawful money override the presumptions of the U.S. person?

2. Is every bank account holder a U.S. person?

3. Is it possible to open a bank account and be a non-U.S. person?

Maybe gdude IMHO the answers might rely on definitions of law.
1) Read the law and look at all the restrictions in it
2) 2 might answer 3

The reason why I am posting this in a different view is a friend who went to renew the government drivers licenses I.D. got a little frustrated when this error message came on when the transaction did not go through.

The Social Security Administration’s system is currently not available to verify your information. Please try again later.

What are the requirements for identification for the driver’s licenses in that state?

You may only renew a driver's license or ID card online if your previous renewal transaction was completed in a license branch.

You can renew your license online only if you meet the following conditions:
• You have a regular driver's license or chauffeur's license. Commercial driver's licenses or public passenger chauffer's licenses cannot be renewed online.
• You are a citizen of the United States.
• There is no change in your name, address, or other information.
• Your license is not expired more than 180 days.
• You are within 12 months of your renewal date.
• You require no testing or medical certifications.
• You are under 75 years old.
• Your previous photo is on file.
• Your record does not have restrictions J or 2-9.
• You are not suspended or invalidated.
• You do not have six or more points on your driver record.
• No points on your current license, if you are under 21 years old.
• You are not switching from a non-SecureID to a SecureID.

You can renew your ID card online only if you meet the following conditions:
• You are a citizen of the United States.
• There is no change in your name, address, or other information.
• Your ID card is not expired more than 180 days.
• You are within 12 months of your renewal date.
• Your previous photo is on file.
• You are not switching from a non-SecureID to a SecureID.
• Your record does not have restrictions 3 or 9.

Note: An individual eligible to vote in the next general, municipal or special election will not be charged a fee for an ID card.

You need one document to prove your identity when applying for a new driver's license, permit, or identification card.

The most common documents that you can use to prove your identity are a United States birth certificate (must be an original or certified copy filed with a U.S. state or territory office of vital statistics or equivalent agency in your state of birth), a United States passport, or a foreign passport with a VISA and I-94 form. Puerto Rican-born citizens must provide a birth certificate issued on or after July 1, 2010.

Then you take your newly re-quired I.D. to the bank and show them who you are.

What is the connection between person (I.D.) and state (Public office) in the bank (private corporation)?

State law in the Montana Code Annotated
Definitions: 2-16-602.
...
(2) "Public office" means a position of duty, trust, or authority created by the constitution or by the legislature or by a political subdivision through authority conferred by the constitution or the legislature that meets the following criteria:
(a) the position must possess a delegation of a portion of the sovereign power of government to be exercised for the benefit of the public;
(b) the powers conferred and the duties to be discharged must be defined, directly or impliedly, by the constitution, the legislature, or by a political subdivision through legislative authority;
(c) the duties must be performed independently and without control of a superior power other than the law, unless the legislature has created the position and placed it under the general control of a superior office or body; and
(d) the position must have some permanency and continuity and not be only temporary or occasional.


Bouvier's Law Dictionary and Concise Encyclopedia, Volume 1, 1914:

A corporation aggregate is a collection of individuals united in one body by such a grant of privileges as secures succession of members without changing the identity of the body...

By both the civil and common law, the sovereign authority only can create a corporation...

...in the United States, by legislative act of any state, or of the congress of the United States, - congress having power to create a corporation...

A corporation is a creature of the state.

"Employee" of the state: 2-9-101. Definitions.
...
(2) (a) "Employee" means an officer, employee, or servant of a governmental entity, including elected or appointed officials, and persons acting on behalf of the governmental entity in any official capacity temporarily or permanently in the service of the governmental entity whether with or without compensation.
(b) The term does not mean a person or other legal entity while acting in the capacity of an independent contractor under contract to the governmental entity to which parts 1 through 3 apply in the event of a claim.

Those actions REQUIRE a bond: 2-9-602.

Officers and employees to be bonded.
(1) All state officers and employees shall be bonded.

Those actions also REQUIRE an oath of office: 15-30-2617.

Oaths administered by director of revenue and designated employees.
The director and each employee designated by the director may administer an oath to any person or take the acknowledgment of any person in respect to any report or return required by or pursuant to this chapter or by the rules of the department.

72-31-101. Oath in behalf of corporation acting as fiduciary.

In all matters in which a corporation is authorized to act as trustee, guardian, executor, administrator, or in any fiduciary capacity and an oath of office is required, it is proper for an officer of the corporation to take the required oath for and on behalf of the officer's corporation and the corporation becomes subject to the laws relating to individuals in similar matters so far as those laws may be applied to a corporation.