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Thread: Resistance and Refusal by Banks

  1. #11
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    I think USC 411 could have been written better (IMHO) to include the member banks in the 'redeemable list' [1) at the Treasury Dept; 2) in the city of DC; 3 at a Federal Reserve bank]. As I stated in my original post, the member banks could interpret 'Federal Reserve Bank' to literally mean one of the big 12 (and not them).

    But, as David aptly pointed out by the original Act, there must be remedy for redeeming in U.S. notes. I believe 'Federal Reserve bank' in the language implies that member banks are 'agents' of the Federal Reserve big 12 and therefore must honor the remedy associated as such with the big 12. But if I can read 411 it on its face and 'pick it apart', then we know they can. And, they will spin it in their favor if we are ignorant to the law and intent of that law.

  2. #12
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    Ok, here's an update from my bank...

    The liason person (very nice) forward the following to me in response to my request to change my sig card (in quotes):

    'This is an urban myth and periodically circles the financial world. Due to regulatory approval and customer volume, we do not deviate from our standard account agreement upon individual customer requests. Therefore, we are not allowed to modify the terms and conditions of the contract (signature card) established with Marine Bank. [followed by the actual languge of USC 411]'.

    Urban myth...really?
    Customer volume...what does that mean?
    What regulatory approval...bank, State or Fed and where can I find it to confirm/debunk?

    As an aside, they won't let me open a new account either.

    I sent back an email asking the following:

    1) Please forward the following question to the person responsible for this matter:

    Is the bank now intending to deny me redemption in lawful money currently being executed on my paper check deposits, as per the statute they have provided below (USC 411), which is the law I have been citing as the basis for this lawful money remedy-obligation in the first place?

    2) I would like the name and number of the Treasury or Financial officer at Marine who would be able to respond to my inquiries in this matter.


    The one I'd really be curious about is if they continue to let me deposit restricted paper checks. I currently have direct-deposit but I will need to change to restricted paper checks. I have only deposited a few paper checks but all were restricted w/o issue.

    On that note (restricted paper checks), does anyone have an opinion on whether this would supercede or override a non-restricted sig card on the account? My thinking is, all restricted paper deposits, withdrawals and merchant checks written from a non-restricted sig card account are the actual transactions of redeeming that money, therefore you have avoided endorsing the "person" (statutory) on the sig card.

    All thougths and clarifications are welcome.
    Last edited by itsmymoney; 01-14-13 at 10:30 PM.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    its like my daddy used to say, if one girl says no, ask another.

    furthermore, I am not in the business of asking anyone if I can place a restrictive endorsement in front of MY signature. And unless I asked for legal advise, I am not going to listen to some clerk dispense unwanted advise.

    "Are you giving me legal advise / are you an attorney?"

    Shalom,
    MJ
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  4. #14

    My issue with the bank

    I opened an account at a local bank here in the Chicagoland area in June of 2012, I wrote on the signature card "All transactions on this account are intended by demand to be done in lawful money per 12 USC 411." I had the administrator make copies of it with no problem, she asked what it was about and I told her it was part of my constitutional rights to demand lawful currency in lieu of the existing fiat currency in place in our country, she said oh, okay and proceeded to make me a copy of the signature card.
    A week later I walked into the bank and the same lady that processed the signature card walked up to me and said "I looked up the 12 USC 411 thing and it says something about lawful money being of gold and silver, well I am here to tell you our money is not backed by any gold or silver anymore!" I looked at her and smiled and said "My point exactly" ..... she walked away with a bewildered look on her face.
    The bank refused to cash the checks I presented with my stamp "Deposit for credit on account or exchange for federal reserve notes of equal value" but they did let me deposit them and with drawl the funds after 2 or 3 days.
    My dilemma, if you can call it a dilemma, is that every month since I opened the account they have sent a letter stating that there is no signature card on file and that I should come in to file one. I laughed because how is the account even opened and an account # issued without a signature card? Did they lose it? are they afraid to put that one on file?
    I read somewhere in one of these threads about a 3 day rescission right of the bank to with drawl the signature card, is that true?
    I have wrote a nasty letter and a nice letter but would like some input before I send one of them off to them, also curious if I should mail it certified w/proof of service?
    I can post scrubbed copies of the signature card and the letter from hte bank if that will help in assessing my situation.

    Thanks in advance for your input into these matters,
    Tom

  5. #15
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Well I suppose that might be confusing language to a bank teller, but i find the law says one needs to make a DEMAND for lawful money so why not make the DEMAND known on the instrument such as:

    DEMAND IS MADE FOR LAWFUL MONEY PER 12USC411.


    If some ignorant clerk asks why the language I used to say "its for tax purposes" - say goodnight Gracie....

    Shalom,
    MJ
    The blessing is in the hand of the doer. Faith absent deeds is dead.

    Lawful Money Trust Website

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Joseph View Post
    its like my daddy used to say, if one girl says no, ask another.

    furthermore, I am not in the business of asking anyone if I can place a restrictive endorsement in front of MY signature. And unless I asked for legal advise, I am not going to listen to some clerk dispense unwanted advise.

    "Are you giving me legal advise / are you an attorney?"

    Shalom,
    MJ
    Point well taken. I may end up going elsewhere. However, I want to gain some experience in how these officers respond (not the clerk) to legal matters of which may be denying me Constitutional rights. They actually forwarded me the very law (USC 411) of which I am citing as my right for lawful money, as THEIR reason for NOT meeting that obligation. Now, unless they are (as this thread implies may be happening) spinning the definition of 'Federal Reserve bank' to mean only the big 12, then I do not see how they can defend their argument.

    The officer (or lackey subordinate to) will supposedly call me to discuss this.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Joseph View Post
    Well I suppose that might be confusing language to a bank teller, but i find the law says one needs to make a DEMAND for lawful money so why not make the DEMAND known on the instrument such as:

    DEMAND IS MADE FOR LAWFUL MONEY PER 12USC411.


    If some ignorant clerk asks why the language I used to say "its for tax purposes" - say goodnight Gracie....

    Shalom,
    MJ

    Did you mean to say if you (customer) stated the novation was for 'tax purposes' then no way would they honor it?

  8. #18
    I think the language wording in the law says, "shall" and in a legal sense, shall means MUST.

    MY SS check is direct deposit as well as my retirement and my salary! Now I want to, as nice as is possible, use the word "demand", as is required by the law, that -ALL- transactions of my account be in lawful money.
    Should I file a "Libel of Review" before I start this?

    I want to understand How to force the bank to comply

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inhisimage View Post
    I think the language wording in the law says, "shall" and in a legal sense, shall means MUST.

    MY SS check is direct deposit as well as my retirement and my salary! Now I want to, as nice as is possible, use the word "demand", as is required by the law, that -ALL- transactions of my account be in lawful money.
    Should I file a "Libel of Review" before I start this?

    I want to understand How to force the bank to comply
    Yes, 'shall' means MUST. USC 411 states that they shall receive and they shall redeem. However, as noted, the 'redeeming' sentence in the statute does not include 'member banks' as obligators unless the they are to be implied in the same class as a big 12 'Federal Reserve bank' as it is listed. David Merrill points out that there must be a remedy for redeeming in U.S. Notes (previously gold, silver) outside the Federal Reserve private Banksters, therefore 'Federal Reserve bank' would by law include 'member banks', UNLESS there is another law providing remedy for lawful money other than USC 411. If there is neither remedy in 411 or an otherwise law we are not aware of, then it would be repugnant to the Constitution I believe because it would be illegal to force us into a private contract in that regard.

    As for the demand on your account. If you cannot change the sig card then in my opinion, you would need to open a new account with the novation on the sig card, or if they (or any bank) won't allow it, you might ask all the debtors (SS, salary) to issue checks instead of direct-deposit and then stamp the novation on the checks. This gives you control and ownership of the money and how you would like to redeem it into your account.
    Last edited by itsmymoney; 01-15-13 at 02:24 AM.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsmymoney View Post
    Did you mean to say if you (customer) stated the novation was for 'tax purposes' then no way would they honor it?
    I don't know anything about anybody honoring anything I say. All I am saying is that these days men and women are D U M B as stumps. And if you even mention it is FOR tax purposes that is enough to overload the hamster wheel powering the few brain cells that they are actually using. And that is a shame. But the public fool system gets what it pays for and these days that is a source of cheap labor that is very skilled at parroting orders and getting them filled within the scope of their OJT.

    "It's for tax purposes" works BECAUSE taxes are Voluntary and my taxes are MY business. And how I might pay my taxes is my business ONLY. And if some clown will not accept my signature including my restrictions, then I will find someone who will. There is no shortage of banks.
    The blessing is in the hand of the doer. Faith absent deeds is dead.

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