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Thread: Make Demand At Treasury

  1. #41
    Freed Gerdes posts; You are wrong about there being trillions of lawful money in circulation. Per my prior discussion of the banking industry's approach, there are almost no dollars of lawful money in circulation. money is required to do business with the District Courts of the United States (Article III courts).

    Finally, the lawful money people are demanding today are US Notes. The fact that the Treasury has not re-issued any such notes since 1971, and the FR makes no effort to have said notes available for people who demand them is just an indication that the Treasury/Federal Reserve syndicate is trying to blur the distinction in the public mind,........

    Because United States Notes serve no function that is not already adequately served by Federal Reserve Notes Legal Tender Status http://www.richmondfed.org/faqs/currency/

    Published: December 8, 1865: http://www.nytimes.com/1865/12/08/ne...pagewanted=all

    Withdrawal Of Circulation

    Should a bank reduce its circulation, either by depositing lawful money or by permitting notes to be redeemed by the Treasurer and destroyed and asking for no new notes to take their place, the amount of the 5 per cent fund may be correspondingly reduced. In such case the Treasurer will, upon receiving the proper advice, surrender any excess in the 5 per cent fund that may result from such destruction or reduction of notes; but he will not so release a portion of the 5 per cent fund until the details of the reduction of circulation are completed by depositing lawful money and withdrawing the bonds.

    The bank must pay the charges for transportation and the cost for assorting redeemed notes. At the end of each fiscal year, account having been kept of its expenses by the National Bank Redemption Agency, the several banks are assessed in proportion to the amount of their notes redeemed, and this sum is then charged to their 5 per cent funds respectively. If a bank deposits lawful money for the retirement of its circulation, it is assessed at the time it makes such deposit for the cost of transporting and redeeming the notes then outstanding, the assessment being equal to the average cost of the redemption of national bank notes during the preceding year. The rate charged to the national banks in 1915-1916 for redemption expenses was $.817229 per $1,000 redeemed.

    Any bank desiring to withdraw all of its circulation, or any part of it, may do so by depositing with the Treasurer of the United States lawful money to an amount equal to the notes it wishes to retire. The Treasurer will then reassign the bonds to the bank which is withdrawing circulation, and will destroy the redeemed circulation. The retirement of circulation by depositing lawful money is limited to $9,000,000 in any one calendar month.2 In certain cases, however, this limitation does not apply: (1) when a bank reduces its capital stock to an amount below its outstanding circulation; (2) when a bank retires its circulation by surrendering the notes for cancellation without reissue, as in this case no deposit of lawful money is required; (3) when bonds are called for redemption by the Secretary of the Treasury and circulating notes are withdrawn in consequence thereof. The purpose of limitation on the rate of retirement of national bank notes is to prevent too sudden reduction in the volume of currency, with its train of undesirable consequences.
    2 See Acts Of July 12, 1882, March 4, 1907, And May 30, 1908.

    Dear Mr. XXXXX X. XXXXX: "The terms 'lawful money' or 'lawful money of the United States' shall be construed to mean gold or silver coin of the United States." {Title 12 United States Code, Section 152] Can a note that PROMISES to PAY ' LAWFUL MONEY' be the "Lawful money'? Legal Information Institute http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/151
    Last edited by Chex; 04-12-13 at 02:17 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Chex View Post
    Dear Mr. XXXXX X. XXXXX: "The terms 'lawful money' or 'lawful money of the United States' shall be construed to mean gold or silver coin of the United States." {Title 12 United States Code, Section 152] Can a note that PROMISES to PAY ' LAWFUL MONEY' be the "Lawful money'? Legal Information Institute http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/151
    This brings up a very pertinent question. Section 152 has been repealed. Also, later editions of US notes bear the condition: This note is legal tender, good for all debts, public and private.

    When demand for lawful money is made, what is the thing (of the resulting trust) received?

    Clearly not US notes, since there are none available, and they are limited by statute to $300 million, and they are legal tender.
    Clearly not the lawful money of account of the United States, since gold or silver coin is not available.
    Clearly not legal tender, since legal tender is being redeemed for lawful money.

    PS - Whatever the thing is, it must be as good as gold.
    Last edited by Keith Alan; 04-12-13 at 03:40 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Alan View Post
    This brings up a very pertinent question. Section 152 has been repealed. Also, later editions of US notes bear the condition: This note is legal tender, good for all debts, public and private.

    When demand for lawful money is made, what is the thing (of the resulting trust) received?

    Clearly not US notes, since there are none available, and they are limited by statute to $300 million, and they are legal tender.
    Clearly not the lawful money of account of the United States, since gold or silver coin is not available.
    Clearly not legal tender, since legal tender is being redeemed for lawful money.

    PS - Whatever the thing is, it must be as good as gold.
    Lawful Money is Equitable Title to Labor-Credit Asset.

    And, YES, it is as good as GOLD...

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Chex View Post
    Withdrawal Of Circulation

    Should a bank reduce its circulation, either by depositing lawful money or by permitting notes to be redeemed by the Treasurer and destroyed and asking for no new notes to take their place, the amount of the 5 per cent fund may be correspondingly reduced. In such case the Treasurer will, upon receiving the proper advice, surrender any excess in the 5 per cent fund that may result from such destruction or reduction of notes; but he will not so release a portion of the 5 per cent fund until the details of the reduction of circulation are completed by depositing lawful money and withdrawing the bonds.

    The bank must pay the charges for transportation and the cost for assorting redeemed notes. At the end of each fiscal year, account having been kept of its expenses by the National Bank Redemption Agency, the several banks are assessed in proportion to the amount of their notes redeemed, and this sum is then charged to their 5 per cent funds respectively. If a bank deposits lawful money for the retirement of its circulation, it is assessed at the time it makes such deposit for the cost of transporting and redeeming the notes then outstanding, the assessment being equal to the average cost of the redemption of national bank notes during the preceding year. The rate charged to the national banks in 1915-1916 for redemption expenses was $.817229 per $1,000 redeemed.

    Any bank desiring to withdraw all of its circulation, or any part of it, may do so by depositing with the Treasurer of the United States lawful money to an amount equal to the notes it wishes to retire. The Treasurer will then reassign the bonds to the bank which is withdrawing circulation, and will destroy the redeemed circulation. The retirement of circulation by depositing lawful money is limited to $9,000,000 in any one calendar month.2 In certain cases, however, this limitation does not apply: (1) when a bank reduces its capital stock to an amount below its outstanding circulation; (2) when a bank retires its circulation by surrendering the notes for cancellation without reissue, as in this case no deposit of lawful money is required; (3) when bonds are called for redemption by the Secretary of the Treasury and circulating notes are withdrawn in consequence thereof. The purpose of limitation on the rate of retirement of national bank notes is to prevent too sudden reduction in the volume of currency, with its train of undesirable consequences.
    2 See Acts Of July 12, 1882, March 4, 1907, And May 30, 1908.
    There's quite a lot here to digest, but it appears to me to be a process where - at a time in the past - banks were able to retire their outstanding obligations by depositing lawful money with the Treasurer (interesting, not the Sec'y of Treasury) according to a corresponding rate of exchange.

    Also, the Secretary of the Treasury had the option to call in the bonds and make demand. I find this extremely interesting, in that it appears to indicate the Sec'y might retain the option to invoke 12 USC 411 at any time.

    Now then, how I see all this pertaining to making demand for lawful money on a 1040 return is this way: when a taxpayer presents his return to the Treasury, and demands lawful money redemption thereon, the effect is to withdraw FRNs he holds from circulation, effectively assuming the role as creditor. His demand must be interpreted as instructions to the Sec'y to call in the bonds.

    If this indeed is the case, and the taxpayer's role as debtor is flipped to that of being creditor, well, I find that astounding! Isn't he forgiving the obligations of the United States corporate? Doesn't that indicate the existence of an unincorporated association, which I will call the united States of America?
    Last edited by Keith Alan; 04-12-13 at 04:44 PM.

  5. #45
    Nice doug555

    Sound crazy? It is. http://adask.wordpress.com/2011/02/2...er-fools-frns/

    Our monetary system is a kind of Alice-in-Wonderland, economic madness with Ben Bernanke starring as the “Mad Hatter”.

    Will you pay—or merely promise to pay? That is the question.

    FRNs are like IOUs. Suppose I want to sell ten acres of Texas ranchland for $100,000. Suppose no one wants to buy my land, except my friend Rick who not only lacks gold or silver to buy, but doesn’t even have enough FRNs to purchase my land. But if I’m a “motivated seller,” I might agree to accept Rick’s $100,000 IOU (promise to pay) for the land. http://www.landreport.com/americas-1...st-landowners/

  6. #46

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by doug555 View Post
    Lawful Money is Equitable Title to Labor-Credit Asset.

    And, YES, it is as good as GOLD...
    It appears a creditor is forgiving a debt! This is very cool.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Alan View Post
    It appears a creditor is forgiving a debt! This is very cool.
    Lawful Money is Equitable Title to Labor-Credit Asset.

    EXACTLY... The forgiving is the for-giving (pre-PAYMENT) of labor as the credit of the Nation en-trusted to the Government-Usufructuaries-Trustees!

    The Estate re-vests upon Infant Proof of Life, and at that point the Living Beneficiary appears and the Trustees must perform said lawful money requests.

    Usufructuary must give Security (Surety) to Owner to indemnify him/her. Said Surety is the Certificate of Live Birth (COLB), given as a receipt for our indemnification.

    My Proof of Life now requires the Trustee to perform said indemnification, for example, honoring "EQUITABLE TITLE TRANSFERS" for true PAYMENT of debts/charges to COLB NAME account!



    P.S. USUFRUCT and The Parable of the Landowner (Mt 21.33-41) adds the spiritual dimension to this "calling"...
    Last edited by doug555; 04-12-13 at 11:59 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Alan View Post
    If this indeed is the case, and the taxpayer's role as debtor is flipped to that of being creditor.
    There is no question about it. Isn’t it that your signature [endorsement] that creates the printing machine to start rolling? Indeed without me there is no you.

  9. #49
    I'm understanding the concept of redemption better now.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Alan View Post
    I'm not looking for a refund. I guess the real goal is to establish the difference between the living man and the trust in the office of the Secretary of Treasury.
    With respect to an 1040, likely the Secretary of the Treasury doesn't necessary have concerns as to the distinction. It was related that "{State/Federally-chartered} banks dont open accounts for men". Makes sense to me. A living man or a living soul may act in various capacities with respect to any given taxable entity: (i) accommodation party, (ii) some representative or fiduciary capacity.

    P.S. I get the impression that some folks are trying to read too much into things. Playing Monopoly, sure there are rules but there is a difference between Monopoly and Reality, no?
    All rights reserved. Without prejudice. No liability assumed. No value assured.

    "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Thess. 5:21.

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