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Thread: Diminished Money Counterclaim

  1. #11
    He filed the Diminished Money Counterclaim in federal court for $350. That is now dismissed because the judge could see no injury around the $5 US note. The suitor, upon filing in the USDC filed his original 1040 wet ink Form with the IRS campus as usual but it was an attachment inside the DMC.

    He got a full refund in record time.

  2. #12
    ManOntheLand
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    He filed the Diminished Money Counterclaim in federal court for $350. That is now dismissed because the judge could see no injury around the $5 US note. The suitor, upon filing in the USDC filed his original 1040 wet ink Form with the IRS campus as usual but it was an attachment inside the DMC.

    So just to be clear, only the 1040 was filed with the IRS campus? Or was IRS campus served with the DMC with 1040 attached? Do you think the refund was issued quickly by IRS so that the suitor could not claim any injury?

    He got a full refund in record time.
    By full refund, do you mean he got all FICA withholding as well?
    Last edited by ManOntheLand; 05-23-13 at 04:06 PM.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOntheLand View Post
    By full refund, do you mean he got all FICA withholding as well?
    I doubt he would have claimed any of that on the 1040 Form.

  4. #14
    Line 69 of the Form 1040 is "Excess Social Security taxes...". If he claimed all SS taxes paid were 'excess,' this sum goes to total taxes paid, which would increase the refund by that amount. So it seems that SS taxes could be redeemed and refunded on a Form 1040. I have not tried it myself; anyone comment here?

    Freed G

  5. #15
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freed Gerdes View Post
    Line 69 of the Form 1040 is "Excess Social Security taxes...". If he claimed all SS taxes paid were 'excess,' this sum goes to total taxes paid, which would increase the refund by that amount. So it seems that SS taxes could be redeemed and refunded on a Form 1040. I have not tried it myself; anyone comment here?

    Freed G
    The 6% SSA tax paid on your behalf by your employer is a "special" income tax MEASURED by your wages. So if you did not engage in that "special" activity (being paid in money substitutes ala FR credits) you would be entitled to a refund of that tax. However your employer would still have to pay their 6% because their end is taxed on the activity of hiring an employee(s) (aka: employer-employee relationship) again MEASURED by the employees wages. I think Medicare and O'Care function in similar manners.

  6. #16
    I believe those questions are answered in the thread here.

  7. #17
    ManOntheLand
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    I believe those questions are answered in the thread here.
    A suitor may be entitled to FICA refund, but I think it will likely cause problems with Auntie if you claim it on a 1040. I would leave that off a 1040 and use a Form 843 if you want to claim refund of FICA.

    When I used to file CTC returns, Hendrickson's method called for the FICA withholding to be included with "income tax" withholding on the line for "federal tax withheld". The reasoning is that it is all federal tax anyway. However, including FICA withholding in the total federal tax withheld on a 1040 is a good way to get your return sent to Ogden (frivolous return program) as it will appear to the IRS return processor that you are demanding more income tax back than was withheld. When I showed a former IRS attorney one of my successful CTC returns, even he was stunned that I actually got a refund of FICA.

    According to the 1040 instructions, the "excess FICA" line is intended only for those who worked multiple jobs and ended up having more FICA withheld than would be normal. It is not intended for you to treat all FICA withholding as excess.

    I understand that 1040 returns with an LMR deduction actually acknowledge payment of wages (unlike CTC returns) and do not claim zero income per se. But even if IRS accepts your 1040 with an LMR deduction to zero out your taxable income, they will probably have a problem with you claiming a FICA refund on 1040.

    Form 843 is the proper form for making a refund claim of FICA, and all they can do is give it to you or refuse it--843 forms are not subject to frivolous penalties. According to the 843 instructions, you are supposed to ask your employer to refund the FICA first, then file 843 if they refuse. I suppose you could skip dealing with the employer and explain on Form 843 that you were not comfortable approaching your employer about it.

    After two years of successfully getting FICA refund from my CTC 1040 returns, I finally had a return that was rejected and determined to be frivolous--but later I submitted the same return with only one difference--I did not include FICA amounts in the total tax withheld. That return was accepted and processed.

  8. #18
    I think you are disingenuous.

  9. #19
    ManOntheLand
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Merrill View Post
    I think you are disingenuous.
    Here we go again. How have I offended you this time? Perhaps we can more efficiently work through ideas here if we refrain from attacking each other's motives and focus on the ideas. Or is it just easier to attack me? How are you any better than the Quatloos folks when you resort to such tactics?

    What is it you disagree with exactly? The suggestion to use an 843 to claim FICA refund? Or the idea that a suitor is entitled to a refund of FICA in the first place?

    I am not sure if a suitor is entitled to refund of FICA or not. But I am pretty sure it is a bad idea to claim such a refund on 1040. I don't want to find out I am not entitled to FICA refund by getting hit with a frivolous return penalty. Thus the 843 suggestion. To be honest, I have not tried it myself. I can tell you that an otherwise frivolous return suddenly became not a frivolous return to IRS when I removed the claim for FICA refund.

    I believe you have expressed your position that FICA is a legitimate tax, so maybe that's the problem?

    My mental model is this: I believe FICA is legitimate only to the extent there is a transfer with respect to "employment" i.e. a trade or business within the U.S. Based on what I have learned here, other than payment from the employer being a transfer of FRN's, how would a private sector job be a "trade or business within the U.S."?

    The employer is liable for the employment taxes. Employer pays half of it, and withholds the other half from your paycheck. On the employer's end, he is taxed for the transfer of FRN's to the employee. On the employee's end it is a tax based on the amount of FRN's being received. If the suitor redeems all such payments for lawful money, then the suitor has not in fact received any "wages" that would subject the suitor to FICA tax.

    In any case, I cannot be compelled to participate in FICA. I cannot even be compelled to give the employer a SSN. He may be required to ask for one. He cannot be penalized if I do not provide one. He may be required to withhold FICA regardless. But if I did not provide a number it is pretty clear I am not trying to contribute to SS, and I have every right to a refund of those amounts. Am I missing something?

    I really am here to learn. And to share my experiences and conclusions. If you object to what I said, I am all ears.

  10. #20
    I think it might behoove you to read the thread again.

    This new method also builds the suitor into position of the court of record. This is accomplished through building an evidence repository. Pete does not stand on the law and therefore even if he did use an evidence repository all that would do is indict the taxpayer.

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