Seeking answers

[Matt]

Hello, The site is very informative, it's quite surreal learning how the Federal Reserve has changed America so much.
I have learned a lot but I'm not yet confident enough to demand lawful money as I want to avoid pitfalls.
I've been looking around the site for some answers to questions I have, but have not been able to find them yet.

Regarding lawful money:
1. Must I stop writing checks and begin using money orders to pay bills?
2. Must I stop using credit/debit cards since a card cannot be used if it doesn't have my signature?
3. I invest in stocks and mutual funds. If I have bought these stocks/funds using money that has collected interest from a bank account is it still possible to withdraw lawful money from the sales of these stocks and funds?

If I can demand lawful money from these sales how do I do it? I use TDAmeritrade and Fidelity.

4. Is it necessary to cash paychecks at my employers bank or can I use my own bank?
5. Any questions I should have asked but did not?
6. What things should I not do once redeeming lawful money?

Thank you.

[David Merrill]

Hello, The site is very informative, it's quite surreal learning how the Federal Reserve has changed America so much.
I have learned a lot but I'm not yet confident enough to demand lawful money as I want to avoid pitfalls.
I've been looking around the site for some answers to questions I have, but have not been able to find them yet.

Regarding lawful money:
1. Must I stop writing checks and begin using money orders to pay bills?

No. You can continue writing checks. For public utilities you might consider striking through Pay to the Order of...


2. Must I stop using credit/debit cards since a card cannot be used if it doesn't have my signature?

You probably want to get out of credit altogether. Debit Cards need no signature.
3. I invest in stocks and mutual funds. If I have bought these stocks/funds using money that has collected interest from a bank account is it still possible to withdraw lawful money from the sales of these stocks and funds?

As a rule of thumb, whenever you sign for cash you want to make your demand.

If I can demand lawful money from these sales how do I do it? I use TDAmeritrade and Fidelity.

4. Is it necessary to cash paychecks at my employers bank or can I use my own bank?

Either. I used your boss's bank for a simple example in my videos.

5. Any questions I should have asked but did not?

Maybe but making your demand for lawful money is risk free. It is getting your mind wrapped around it enough to file income tax forms that takes you to a next level.
6. What things should I not do once redeeming lawful money?

You want to simplify your contract footprint. Get out of credit and into debit if you like plastic. Quit signing so much stuff. Learn a simpler contract lifestyle.


Thank you.

Welcome to the forum!

[Freed Gerdes]

All US stock trading agencies use a connected bank to store and harvest the use of any free funds (cash balances) in your accounts. This bank is a Federal Reserve bank, and you can make your demand to your broker, who is an agent of that bank. Send your demand by certified letter, return receipt requested, then keep a record of the letter and receipt, in case the IRS asks you to prove you made the demand. After the demand, your connected bank account will contain lawful money, so equities purchased from the account will be owned in legal title, as well as equitable title (ie, no lien in favor of the Federal Reserve). This legal ownership may or may not help if the Fed/Treasury announce some kind of confiscation of stock accounts, which is a near certainty in the not too distant future. Further, the proceeds from the sale of these equities will be redeemed in lawful money prior to deposit into your connected account, thus the transaction is not under the purview of Title 26 (which deals with private money, and excise taxes on same). So the proceeds from stock sales is not taxable, and does not have to be reported to the IRS. From your mutual funds, request a check for whatever number of shares you want to sell, then put your demand for LM on the back of the check; if cashed/deposited at your usual bank, it does not need a signature. Be sure to keep a copy of both sides of the check, so you can prove you made the demand on the check. The demand for LM is always made at the point of negotiating an instrument with the bank. The bank is the local distributor of private money; they benefit greatly from your use of their private debt instruments, and they will assume that at every transaction you want to use their private debt, unless you demand public money instead. The FRN is legal tender: a tender is an offer to pay; making FRN's legal tender is a very bad joke, as the law says if anyone offers to pay you in IOU's, you have to accept them, otherwise the debt is canceled. But you do not have to loan your FRN's to the bank, which constitutes 'using' FR private credit, and makes you liable for the income associated with the deposit. By demanding LM on the check you are negotiating, you switch from private money (taxable) to public money (non-taxable by the IRS, only taxable by Congress, and only following the Constitution). Keep trying; better questions get better answers.

[David Merrill]

All US stock trading agencies use a connected bank to store and harvest the use of any free funds (cash balances) in your accounts.

Endorsing the private credit (system) of the Federal Reserve.

[mikecz]

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/ppotpus/...+reserve+notes

If one wants a clear depiction of the system, straight from the horse's mouth, FDR himself...(Just read page 18 and 19, gems abound.)

The federal reserve was originally created as a temporary backup to solve liquidity issues. If there was a run on the bank, they needed a "lender of last resort", a separate currency to allow for those times when a bank couldn't meet the demands for real currency. This is why the notes had to be redeemable, as they were issued, they needed to have value. Since it was just a temporary liquidity issue, the notes should be redeemed, and when the crisis is over, all is well.

This was the inception of the beast that we know now. They started their money manipulation scheme by toying with their reserve requirements, have since abandoned that practice as more control has been found in total control of interest rates through the discount window.

Either way, in the text above that David posts on a regular basis, the things that stood out to me the most...

...was to prevent the withdrawal of any further gold and currency. The old War Statute of 1917 had not been repealed and we used it. It was an exceedingly useful instrument.

You might hoard gold, therefore you are the enemy (according to FDR, and Woodrow Wilson)! We now can steal your gold, thanks...

..was to provide some form of circulating medium for the country in addition to the outstanding currency, because a large part had been put into hiding. I have confidence the public will accept that circulating medium.

The circulating medium is obviously the FRN. Before this he states how the county now needed cooperation between the States and the Federal Government. The FRN is federal, this statement gives a little insight into how little control the Feds had of the system prior to this date.

It is proposed through the Treasury Department that every bank will be authorized to open new accounts, and that the money deposited in the new accounts can be withdrawn at any time. The only way in which that money can be kept "absolutely safe" beyond peradventure of doubt is by using methods to keep it safe-first, keeping the money in cash the way it is put in; second, depositing it in the Federal Reserve Bank; and third, purchasing Government bonds with it.

New accounts. These new accounts are held in the federal reserve system, same as today.

Recognized Government bonds (I believe federal reserve notes here) are as safe as Government currency (coin and united states notes, gold certificates, silver certificates, etc.). They have the same credit in back of them. And, therefore, if we can persuade people all throughout the country, when their salary checks come in, to deposit them in new accounts, which will be held in trust and kept in on of the new forms I have mentioned, we shall have made progress

So obviously it's a con. The biggest thing from reading this over and reflecting, a bank gets it's charter from the state. It is a bank that is a "member" of the federal reserve system. It is not a federal reserve bank. It was in the past and is now a bank that accepts multiple types of currency, having a currency in federal reserve notes back in 1933 became the preferred method as it is today, and since they just assume you keep your money that way, because it's the norm. They have to accept your money the way you demand it, hell they are a bank. The federal reserve notes are held, as FDR said, "in a new account." They prefer FRNs because they can fractionally lend them, a huge plus.

Now, I know all that is required is a demand. But I'm trying to go a little further. I bought a few notes, a silver certificate, a united states note, and an old federal reserve note with the "redeemable" verbiage on it. I also contacted the VP at my credit union and backed him into a corner. I said, what if I deposit $20 into a new account with these united states notes, it is illegal for you to use them as a reserve. He basically stated those would be added to the general fund, and used a reserve. He also tried to add the practicality aspect of it, trying to say the amount is so small, it wouldn't matter anyway. I said I just want to know how I can deposit this form of currency and allow you to keep it's substance (he has seen the united states notes code we talk about frequently). He's forwarded it to legal. The goal of all this is to get the terminology. If it is possible, what "type" of account do they say it is. Further, can I deposit a check in that form, the form of a united states note into that account, and it be held in that type. I actually care what happens behind the clerks window, as I find this to be my most assured way of passing the info to others. "I have a solid account with my credit union, of this type, that is proven by their accounting dept. to not break the law and be used a reserve currency in fractional lending." I don't think I'll get it out of them, but, a bank is a bank first and a member of the federal reserve system second, they just prefer FRNs and don't want you to know about anything else. As I stated earlier, I'll update any responses I receive.

[Freed Gerdes]

Guys, Mikecz has brought up a potential problem: the demand must be made at the Treasury, or at any Federal Reserve bank. Perhaps the BofA is reading 12 USC to mean that the demand must be made at (one of the 12) Federal Reserve banks, as they are just a member bank of the Federal Reserve. If this is the case, then making a demand on the back of your check, ie, non-endorsement, would not appear to be a sufficient demand... likewise making your demand on the bank signature card would not appear to be sufficient, unless you happen to bank at one of the 12 regional FR banks...

Anyone care to comment on this perception? Has anyone had success with getting refunds from the IRS using only demands on the backs of checks? I had assumed that this was established practice (demanding at any bank which is a member of the FRS).

[mikecz]

Guys, Mikecz has brought up a potential problem: the demand must be made at the Treasury, or at any Federal Reserve bank. Perhaps the BofA is reading 12 USC to mean that the demand must be made at (one of the 12) Federal Reserve banks, as they are just a member bank of the Federal Reserve. If this is the case, then making a demand on the back of your check, ie, non-endorsement, would not appear to be a sufficient demand... likewise making your demand on the bank signature card would not appear to be sufficient, unless you happen to bank at one of the 12 regional FR banks...

Anyone care to comment on this perception? Has anyone had success with getting refunds from the IRS using only demands on the backs of checks? I had assumed that this was established practice (demanding at any bank which is a member of the FRS).

Freed, I think the point of that was to show a bank wasn't originally setup to accept only FRNs, they accepted all types of currency, FRNs just were preferred. It's sort of like any business, well, like a recycling shop. They would love for you to give them solid ingots already prepped and ready to go, giving them a bunch of gnarled up copper wire is a pain in the a$$, but they'll take it. FRNs just became standard because the bank can fractionally lend them and turn more profit quicker and easier. It's simple business, it's why central banks always win out, easy money. We as Americans have a right to demand our money be in a certain form, as the FRN started as a temporary fix, a quick means to provide liquidity if the bank should need it.

FYI...Good luck getting in the lobby. I wander if anyone has ever tried sending a FRN to one of these banks with a demand?

http://www.federalreserve.gov/otherfrb.htm

Boston
New York
Philadelphia
Cleveland
Richmond
Atlanta
Chicago
St. Louis
Minneapolis
Kansas City
Dallas
San Francisco

[mikecz]

My question...

I have some old Federal Reserve Notes with the language "is redeemable in lawful money at the united states treasury or at any federal reserve bank."

Is a credit union a federal reserve bank? I know it is a member of the Federal Reserve Bank, but, according to the language above, is it specifically a "federal reserve bank," or does this mean 1 of the 12 district banks?

The response

hank you for your recent correspondence to the Federal Reserve Board regarding Federal Reserve notes. Because of the nature of your question, you may be interested in our Frequently Asked Questions about currency and coin: http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency-coin.htm

You may also be interested in the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadephia's online publication, "Symbols on American Money," which can be found at http://www.philadelphiafed.org/educa...merican-money/.

As for your question about credit unions, please know the Federal Reserve supervises only state-chartered banks that are members of the Federal Reserve System. The National Credit Union Administration (NCUA) is the agency that supervises and regulates federal credit unions.

I hope this information is helpful.

Sincerely,

LOD
Board Staff

I am going to pursue a bank, my understanding was credit union and bank are nearly identical, just with different owners, maybe a little more restriction with a credit union. Either way, better off at a bank I would say, at least judging from the email.

[Matt]

I intend to cash a profit sharing check soon, but have a few more questions.
I intend to scan the front and back side with my demand.

1.If I were to deposit the whole check, are there any demands I need to make?

2.Do I need to prove that the backside is actually the same backside of the check I'm cashing, and not some other check?

3.When writing checks do I still sign in cursive first and last or first and middle? Or should I never use cursive and use print only?

4. Is this correct for cashing a check?--->
"Redeemed in lawful money
pursuant to Title 12 U.S.C. § 411
[first and middle name in cursive];dba [name on front in all caps]"


Regarding Freed Gerdes advice:
5.When I send this certified letter with my demand, does the letter need to go to a specific person or can it be sent to standard mail delivery?
Would this be how I would word my demand from a sale?---->
"All sales are redeemed in Lawful Money Pursuant to 12 USC § 411"?

I hope I'm not being a nuisance with these questions, I just want to be sure to get it right.

[Freed Gerdes]

Accepted strategy has been widely acknowledged (and confirmed by successful IRS tax refunds) to simply non-endorse your check, by writing or stamping "Redeemed in Lawful Money per 12 USC 411". No signature is required, as you the payee are identified on the front of the check. Banks sometimes pretend that they want your signature on the back to compare it, for discouraging forgery; if you intend to deposit the funds in your account at the bank, no signature is required, as stated in your account agreement. Should the teller demand a signature, sign as First Middle dba: First Middle Last (the First Middle Last can be printed, but since that is the part they look to for forgery, they may want it as your regular signature; since you are signing under your demand, this print/sign issue is irrelevant). And since the bank will not return your paper check, you need to non-endorse it beforehand and make a copy of both sides; this copy is your only record that you made your demand.

My problem is with electronic transfers where there is no paper record. Here you need either to make your demand on the account signature card (Bank of America refused to let me add the demand to my current signature card), or make your demand in writing to the bank. I wrote to BofA notifying them of my demand, and they returned it saying it 'had no legal significance.' Thinking maybe BofA was interpreting §411's reference to 'any Federal Reserve bank' to mean any of the original 12 regional Fed banks, I wrote to the Richmond Federal Reserve Bank and asked them to set BofA straight. Here is my letter to the Richmond Fed: http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/8346/002rok.jpg and here is the response from the Richmond Fed: http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/7388/001ncri.jpg They were as unhelpful as possible, except they may have revealed more truth than they wanted to by haughtily reporting that: "Federal Reserve Banks do business with the government and with financial institutions. They do not do business with or hold accounts for individuals." This statement makes it pretty clear that whether 12 USC § 411 originally meant only the 12 regional FedRes banks, it cannot mean that now. Thus making a demand at any FedRes member bank should suffice, whether the bank acknowledges your demand or not. This just confirms that when a party starts out to deal in bad faith, they keep at it.

If you are noticing your bank by certified letter, I would send it to a specific person, such as the person who denied your request to put your demand on your signature card, or the bank manager.

I am not sure what you are referring to about sales. The demand is about money. Specifically, when you cash a check, the Fed/IRS will make a rebuttable presumption that you are an admitted and voluntary endorser of Federal Reserve private credit, ie, your 'money' on deposit will be used for fractional reserve lending, and you will be taxed for the privilege of using private credit (FRN's, which are debt notes, not money). The bank does not care where your money came from, or what you are selling. Can you be more specific?