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Thread: The Pope as corporation sole Jurisdiction = Vatican

  1. #11

    Allodial land title

    I've been studying land patents and related sciences for a while now. I wanted to share this bit of research I did recently regarding allodial land title in America. I think it may be relevant to this discussion.

    All US Land Patents (that I've seen, and that number is many) include the words "TO HAVE AND TO HOLD" in uppercase, bold letters.

    All definitions from Black's 4th [my notes in brackets]:

    HABENDUM. Portion of deed beginning with the words "To have and to hold".
    The clause usually following the granting part of the premises of a deed,
    which defines the extent of the ownership in the thing granted to be held
    and enjoyed by the grantee.


    TO HAVE AND TO HOLD. The words in a conveyance which show the estate
    intended to be conveyed. Thus, in a conveyance of land in fee-simple, the
    grant is to "A. and his heirs, to have and to hold the said [land] unto
    and to the use of the said A., his heirs and assigns forever."
    Strictly speaking, however, the words "to have" denote the estate to be
    taken, while the words "to hold" signify that it is to be held of some
    superior lord, i.e., by way of tenure. The former clause is called the
    "habendum"; the latter the "tenendum".

    [So who is the superior lord on a US land patent?]


    TENURE. The mode or system of holding lands or tenements in
    subordination to some superior, which, in the feudal ages, was the leading
    characteristic of real property.
    Tenure is the direct result of feudalism, which separated the dominium
    directum (the dominion of the soil), which is placed mediately or
    immediately in the crown, from the dominion utile (the possessory title),
    the right to the use and profits in the soil, designated by the term
    "seisin", which is the highest interest a subject can acquire.

    [Sounds like the US land patent might be a feudal conveyance, the dominion
    over the soil still laying in the crown (of England, I assume, or the
    Pope).]


    TENENDUM. To be holden. It was used to indicate the lord of whom the
    land was to be held and the tenure by which it was to be held, but since
    all freehold tenures have been converted to socage, the tenendum is of no
    further use, and is therefore joined in the habendum--"to have and to
    hold".

    TENENS. A tenant.


    SOCAGE. A species of tenure, in England, whereby the tenant held certain
    lands in consideration of certain inferior services of husbandry to be
    performed by him to the lord of the fee. In its most general and
    extensive signification, a tenure by any certain and determinate service.
    And in this sense it is by the ancient writers constantly put in
    opposition to tenure by chivalry or knight-service, where the render was
    precarious and uncertain. Socage is of two sorts--free socage, where the
    services are not only certain, but honorable; and villein socage, where
    the services, though certain, are of baser nature.


    RENDER. In feudal law, used in connection with rents and heriots. Goods
    subject to rent or heriot-service were said to lie in render, when the
    lord might not only seize the identical goods, but might also distrain for
    them.

    DISTRAIN. To take as a pledge property of another, and keep it until he
    performs his obligation or until the property is replevied by the sheriff.
    It was used to secure an appearance in court, payment of rent, performance
    of services, etc.


    FEE [generally]. A charge fixed by law for services of public officers or
    for use of a privilege under control of government. A recompense for an
    offical or professional service or a charge or emolument or compensation
    for a particular act or service.

    FEE [estates]. A freehold estate in lands, held of a superior lord, as a
    reward for services, and on condition of rendering some service in return
    for it. The true meaning of the word "fee" is the same as that of "feud"
    or "fief", and in its original sense it is taken in contradistinction to
    "allodium", which latter is defined as a man's own land, which he
    possesses merely in his own right, without owing any rent or service to
    any superior.

    FEE [American law]. An estate of inheritance without condition, belonging
    to the owner, and alienable by him or transmissible to his heirs
    absolutely and simply, and is an absolute estate in perpetuity and the
    largest possible estate a man can have, being, in fact, allodial in its
    nature.

    [So under American law, a fee is "allodial in its nature". So, to be
    clear, it is not "allodial" per se, but in the nature of allodial title,
    i.e. not entirely the same.]

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus the Destroyer View Post
    All definitions in the nature of allodial title.
    TENURE. The mode or system of holding lands or tenements in subordination to some superior, which, in the feudal ages, was the leading characteristic of real property. Tenure is the direct result of feudalism, which separated the dominium directum (the dominion of the soil), which is placed mediately or immediately in the crown, from the dominion utile (the possessory title), the right to the use and profits in the soil, designated by the term "seisin", which is the highest interest a subject can acquire.

    [Sounds like the US land patent might be a feudal conveyance, the dominion over the soil still laying in the crown (of England, I assume, or the Pope).]

    [A land patent is an exclusive land grant made by a sovereign entity over the land in question. To make such a grant “patent”, a sovereign (proprietary landowner)]

    The Pope governs the Catholic Church through the Roman Curia. ... and it is the Holy See that establishes treaties and concordats with other sovereign entities. The primacy of Rome makes its bishop, commonly known as the Pope, the worldwide leader of the church. Since Rome is the preeminent episcopal see of the Roman Catholic Church, it contains the central government of the church, including various agencies essential to administration. Diplomatically, the Holy See acts and speaks for the whole Roman Catholic Church. It is also recognized by other subjects of international law as a sovereign entity, headed by the Pope, with which diplomatic relations can be maintained. [1][2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_See

    Meaning Vatican City is a sovereign state and the pope is considered to be the head of state and the head of government making him head man. Is he?

    FEE [generally]. A charge fixed by law for services of public officers or for use of a privilege under control of government. A recompense for an offical or professional service or a charge or emolument or compensation for a particular act or service. [from http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showt...ll=1#post11660 ] The poor place property in trust with the rich for PROTECTION - sounds sort of like organized crime, yes? And the Landlord charges a fee to hold the lands [typically called a property tax] but the tenant - vassal is allowed to collect rents and avails of the Land. However title IN the Land is held in the Landlord. The last Grant is only as good as the first.]

    Interesting that The Knights are at once a Roman Catholic religious order, an aid group that runs soup kitchens, hospitals and ambulance services around the globe, and a sovereign entity that prints its own passports and enjoys diplomatic relations with 104 countries — yet has no country to call its own. The order's international legal status is entirely unique, a sovereign entity that prints its own stamps, coins, license plates and passports, yet has no territory over which it rules. Its forces once occupied Cyprus, Rhodes and Malta, but Napoleon expelled the order from Malta in 1798, depriving it of the final patch of land it ruled. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...years/1904369/

    Likewise. Suits name the Vatican as a respondent on grounds that it employed clergy suspected of abuse. Papal spokesmen say it is a sovereign entity and immune from the American court system. http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul...suits-20100711
    Last edited by Chex; 09-20-13 at 07:23 PM.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by allodial View Post
    Re: corporation soles a very important mention for gleaning deeper insight into the 'world model'

    The Renaissance and Medieval doctrine of the king's two bodies. The inter-regnum mantra "The king is dead long live the king" makes sense in the light of that doctrine is the notion exposed of a king consisting of partly a Man and also a corporation. The work entitled The King’s Two Bodies: A Study in Mediaeval Political Theology by Ernst H. Kantorowicz comes to mind.

    Probate might make a lot more sense in light of the above.
    I believe I recommended this book sometime back on another board.

    I have this book. I use it as part of my "incorporation theory".
    Christ is considered as having two bodies as well.

    Perhaps two bodies, one with commerce and one without commerce, would suffice for the commercial realm?

  4. #14
    Senior Member Michael Joseph's Avatar
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