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Thread: Is a bank required to have adequate cash (FRN) on hand to cash out a large check?

  1. #1

    Is a bank required to have adequate cash (FRN) on hand to cash out a large check?

    Having no bank account and minimal ID (a state ID card I got merely for the purpose of being able to cash checks at banks and postal money orders without hassle) I will take checks that I receive in payment to a branch of the bank upon which the check is drawn and cash them there. Usually I have no problems, other than verification of the check with the issuer.

    I have in my possession a check for a low five-figure amount (in the teens) drawn on a state-chartered bank. I went to a branch to cash it on the same day it was issued but they claimed they did not have the cash on hand and would have to order it. I expressed the fact that I was miffed at this but instructed them to go ahead and order the cash and have it delivered to my hometown branch, and I let them know I would be expecting to go there and cash it the next day, and that didn't seem to be a problem. I got the branch manager's business card and was instructed to call her the next day to confirm arrangements.

    The next day (yesterday) I called the branch manager at the first location but she was out to lunch. Before I went over to the local branch, I called the Federal Reserve with the intent of asking what the regulations were regarding whether a bank was required to have the FRN on hand for a cashing a check of size, but all I got was a voicemail box, so I left a message. Being impatient, I went into the local branch to cash the check, but the branch manager said he had not heard anything about it from the other branch, then gave me the same line as at the other branch, that they don't have that amount of cash on hand and it would need to be ordered, and the soonest it would be was next Tuesday. At this point I expressed my displeasure with the bank's policy and accused them of check kiting. I told them that if I present a check for payment and they didn't have the funds then it was no different from if I had written a check for which funds were not available: it's fraud. The branch manager was unswayed.

    I called their corporate office and asked to speak with the CEO. I was able to get a hold of his executive assistant, who told me he was in a meeting and unable to talk to me at the moment. I told her I just wanted to talk to someone with authority to get my check cashed without any further delay. She took notes about my complaint and got my contact information and told me she would have someone get back to me. I did not hear back from anyone by end of day.

    When I went back to my office yesterday I did some research in California Jurisprudence and so far have only found information dealing with the criminal aspect of knowingly passing checks with insufficient funds. This does not cover the present situation, where the check is good (the drawing entity certainly has the funds) but the bank claims they don't have the FRN to cash it. I did get a call back later in the day from someone at the FR but she was unable to help, as the bank is FDIC regulated. She also was unable to cite off-hand any regulation regarding the amount of FRN a bank must have on hand for daily operations. I submitted a complaint to the FDIC via their website but the form said if they can answer the inquiry without having to call the bank in question then I would receive a response within 10 days, but if they had to consult with the bank then the reply would be within 60 days. Egads.

    Now, this situation is not confined to banks. Would you believe the US Postal Service is one of the worst check-kiting offenders out there? TWICE now, once a couple weeks ago and again yesterday, I brought in a money order that the clerks admitted they could not honor because they didn't have the money in their tills. In the first instance it was a MO for $800, and yesterday's attempt was for $500. Apparently, the only FRN they have at their disposal is what they get from customers that day, and if there isn't enough in the tills to cover it then they basically tell you that you are SOL. Numerous calls to the local and regional and national Postmasters General resulted in getting NOWHERE. Absolute cluelessness seems to reign supreme at the USPS these days.

    What is going on here? I thought that if I take a check--certainly a money order--into the institution upon which it is drawn, they have to give me the cash. With the banks, I can kind of see where they would get an out, because they are banks, and banks are apparently immune from the requirements of banking and contract law these days. But with the post office money order, which is supposed to be as good as cash, I don't see how them not having enough money to cash one on demand is anything but a fraud. In both cases, I was able to have the MO honored later on in the day, after the PO had done sufficient business to fill their tills with cash. However, I don't deem it acceptable to be told to "come back later". I don't want to come back later; my time is valuable and gas costs money, and you're supposed to honor these stupid pieces of paper on demand.

    Does anyone have any insight on this matter that they can share with me?

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    I still don't have an answer to my question, but here's an update on my check:

    In short, going to the top does result in action, and the branch manager learned something new today: one is not required to provide a social security number to cash a check over $10,000, despite what some newer regulations might say.

    The CEO's office did have someone get back to me, and she was very friendly and extremely helpful. She said she was going to find the cash for me, and where would be the most convenient branch to pick it up? I told her my first and second preferences, and she said to give her a little bit of time but she would be back to me with the word. Sure enough, a couple hours later she told me the cash was waiting for me at my hometown branch.

    When I first went in, the branch manager greeted me warmly and invited me over to his desk. We exchanged trivialities and then got down to business. He informed me that they would need me to provide them with additional information because the amount of the check was over $10,000, of which the CEO's assistant already informed me. He handed me a "Check Cashing Application" to fill out. I was slightly agitated by this because I did not know for what I as applying (begging). I filled out my full name, c/o address, and left the SSN, occupation and phone number fields blank. I handed it back to him and when he got around to looking at it he said he would need me to fill it out completely. I then asked him, why is this an application, what am I applying for? He replied that it's an application form for cashing a check over $10,000, which was an obvious answer, but I guess he didn't know how to answer such a stupid question. So I stated that I wasn't interested in applying for anything, and scratched out the words "Application" in two places, then proceeded to fill in my occupation as "Consultant" (I'm sure there's something better I can use in the future, like maybe prepending "Private" to some description of my craft) and my phone number (since they already had it). I put a line in the SSN area and handed it back to him. He then asked me, you don't have a "social"? To which I honestly replied, no (a "social"? don't got one). He then said the only thing he was capable of saying in such a situation, which was "We need to have a social to cash this check", to which I again replied with a very straight face, I don't have one.

    Flustered, he excused himself and made a call and spoke to someone in a very quiet voice and explained the situation. He received some instruction, then hung up and told me someone was looking into this and he would have an answer shortly. I told him no problem. He sent off an e-mail with some information to his overseer and we waited. After several long moments, he began typing something on his computer. Being optimistic, I figured it was him replying by e-mail and confirming that everything was a go and he would cash the check. And that's exactly what it was, everything was fine and he just needed to go get the cash from the vault. A few minutes later after some note counting and I was walking out of there with an envelope stuffed with crisp 2006 series hundos in sequential serial number order.

    So, no, you do not have to give a social security number to complete a transaction in excess of $10,000 if you are not an account holder of the bank, or you do not have a social security number. That myth is busted

  3. #3
    Same with the driver license.

    Welcome to the furums Destroyer! If you had been around here any longer you would have demanded lawful money and added another victory lap!

    Without endorsement of private credit, without your consent and collusion to having less funds in the vault than might be demanded - which FDIC is supposed to handle expeditiously by the way - you might have walked out with your funds within minutes instead of days.

    Hopefully you handle large checks often and can tell us how that goes in the near future.

  4. #4
    Magnus -- Would you be able to provide a link to a copy of the "Check Cashing Application" you were asked to fill out? (I have a theory that these "applications" may be mandatory for the bank to submit, but you are under no obligation to help them fill it out).

  5. #5
    Indeed that brings up the question will they even give you a blank application?

  6. #6
    David, au contraire, my unwitting mentor. I have followed your work casually for a couple years now, and I endorse EVERYTHING of a fiduciary nature with "REDEEMED IN LAWFUL MONEY PER 12 USC 411" and then my signature.

    However, you just clued me in to something I obviously missed along the way: by demanding lawful money I am not subject to unspoken rules regarding availability of funds on hand? If this is the case, it is something I will definitely pursue the next time. I will be earning more 4&5 figure checks in the future, and will be happy to do some experimenting. A pointer to what I should be studying is welcome.

    Of note was that the upper level fixer that rounded up the money for me volunteered some additional information that was interesting: she said when she spoke to my hometown branch she asked if they could handle cashing the check and she told me that they told her yes; she then said she asked them if it would impact their reserves at all and she told me they said no. So it would seem the only reason they gave me grief was not because they didn't have the cash but because (speculating) their policy did not allow the cashing of such a check to a non-customer without prior arrangements. Otherwise, their reserves can handle it.

  7. #7
    Jethro, it didn't occur to me to get a copy of the application. It was the size of a deposit slip (which in this bank's case is a third of an 8.5x11 page, i.e. like the size of 1800s dollar bills) and was pretty basic. It asked for the usual information: name, address, city, state, zip, phone number, SSN, occupation. At the bottom it specified to write in the amount of the check, then write the numeric amount, then a line for a signature (dang it, just realized I did not qualify my signature, oh well) and date.

    When I was relating the story to a colleague later on in the day it occurred to me that the bank was perhaps going to securitize the application, because I've heard say that things like loan or mortgage applications might be getting securitized without our knowledge.

    As an aside, I had at the ready an executed alternate W-8BEN form that I had prepared for a customer I had done work for a few weeks ago. It is a form I prepared myself with simply my full name, country ("USA"), entity type ("Individual (Man)"), and domicile (qualified postal address without the US), plus a mandatory IRS disclaimer with which I did not have any problems. I figured at some point it may be necessary to produce it but as it turns out it was not required.

    If anyone is interested in a copy just PM me and I'll provide it, or will post it publicly if there's a proper place for it. It's pretty basic, but I know how much nicer it is to start with something that is already developed

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus the Destroyer View Post
    David, au contraire, my unwitting mentor. I have followed your work casually for a couple years now, and I endorse EVERYTHING of a fiduciary nature with "REDEEMED IN LAWFUL MONEY PER 12 USC 411" and then my signature.

    However, you just clued me in to something I obviously missed along the way: by demanding lawful money I am not subject to unspoken rules regarding availability of funds on hand? If this is the case, it is something I will definitely pursue the next time. I will be earning more 4&5 figure checks in the future, and will be happy to do some experimenting. A pointer to what I should be studying is welcome.

    Of note was that the upper level fixer that rounded up the money for me volunteered some additional information that was interesting: she said when she spoke to my hometown branch she asked if they could handle cashing the check and she told me that they told her yes; she then said she asked them if it would impact their reserves at all and she told me they said no. So it would seem the only reason they gave me grief was not because they didn't have the cash but because (speculating) their policy did not allow the cashing of such a check to a non-customer without prior arrangements. Otherwise, their reserves can handle it.


    Adjusting to the new information then...

    If you had been endorsing the FDIC would have had it covered. So the waiting and grief they gave you was probably because you were outside the scope of fractional lending with your Demand?

    I love how very revealing this is.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus the Destroyer View Post
    Jethro, it didn't occur to me to get a copy of the application. It was the size of a deposit slip (which in this bank's case is a third of an 8.5x11 page, i.e. like the size of 1800s dollar bills) and was pretty basic. It asked for the usual information: name, address, city, state, zip, phone number, SSN, occupation. At the bottom it specified to write in the amount of the check, then write the numeric amount, then a line for a signature (dang it, just realized I did not qualify my signature, oh well) and date.

    When I was relating the story to a colleague later on in the day it occurred to me that the bank was perhaps going to securitize the application, because I've heard say that things like loan or mortgage applications might be getting securitized without our knowledge.

    As an aside, I had at the ready an executed alternate W-8BEN form that I had prepared for a customer I had done work for a few weeks ago. It is a form I prepared myself with simply my full name, country ("USA"), entity type ("Individual (Man)"), and domicile (qualified postal address without the US), plus a mandatory IRS disclaimer with which I did not have any problems. I figured at some point it may be necessary to produce it but as it turns out it was not required.

    If anyone is interested in a copy just PM me and I'll provide it, or will post it publicly if there's a proper place for it. It's pretty basic, but I know how much nicer it is to start with something that is already developed
    You can Go Advanced and have Attachments available. Please sanitize to your liking carefully including bleed thru ink stamping on the backside.

    Here is some Crosstalk from the brain trust:


    On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 4:21 AM, David Merrill <> wrote:

    I read your sentence a few times True Name, and still find it quite perplexing:



    Yes. which prompted a recall about JP shorting the dollar that I heard a while ago, so present that…



    There is something prophetic about your treatment of time.



    Also in the second link we find the author inspired by an influenza-inspired fever! I like that.




    We are dealing with a system that is based on really big lies. I’m sure our leaders of government have a very appealing rationalization why we must pretend the mortgage bonds are real, why we must pretend the mortgages are real, why we must pretend the notes are real, and why we must pretend the debts and defaults…


    This is quite interesting – maybe even an aspect of Wisdom as presented in the first chapters of Proverbs? It takes a lifetime of experience blundering along in the dark thinking by the same old conditioning that debt has value; then a 102° fever brings on the dreams and maybe a certain feeling of surety that a hallucinogenic communication was for real… Then something snaps and the wiser man breaks through to the obvious!



    I have a couple phone-sized videos for you to enjoy.



    A Rare Interview with Helen SCHUCMAN (A Course in Miracles).

    A Cave Vision – interview and transcript.

    A Cave Vision – reenactment.



    -----Original Message-----
    From: suitor
    Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 5:16 PM
    To: David Merrill
    Cc:
    Subject: Re: FW: OCC News Release: Comptroller Statement Regarding Civil Money Penalty Against JPMorgan Chase, N.A.



    Yes. which prompted a recall about JP shorting the dollar that I heard a while ago, so present that

    Now see this
    https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=cr&ei=...g+long+on+gold

    And might as well add this
    http://livinglies.wordpress.com/2013...own-with-them/





    On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 9:18 PM, David Merrill <> wrote:

    These three emails seem significant.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: OCC Public Affairs [mailtoccpublicaffairs@occ.treas.gov]
    Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 7:55 AM
    To: sanitized
    Subject: OCC News Release: Comptroller Statement Regarding Civil Money Penalty Against JPMorgan Chase, N.A.



    NR 2013-141

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    September 19, 2013
    Contact: Bryan Hubbard
    (202) 649-6870


    Comptroller Statement Regarding Civil Money Penalty Against JPMorgan Chase, N.A.
    WASHINGTON—Comptroller of the Currency Thomas J. Curry today issued the following statement regarding the civil money penalty issued by the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency against JPMorgan Chase, N.A., for unsafe and unsound practices related to derivatives trading activities conducted on behalf of the bank by the Chief Investment Office (CIO):

    Today’s actions by the OCC, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, the Securities and Exchange Commission, and the Financial Conduct Authority in the United Kingdom represent extraordinary work and international cooperation to help ensure our financial system operates in a safe and sound manner and in accordance with applicable laws domestically and abroad.

    Banks are in the business of managing risk, and bank management must implement the appropriate governance, controls, risk management and audit functions to ensure the bank operates in a safe and sound manner. Bank management must also ensure open and effective communication with supervisors, so that we can effectively do our jobs. Anything less is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

    The nearly $1 billion in combined penalties and the more than $6 billion in losses resulting from the failures in controls over derivatives trading serve as important reminders to all bankers of the importance of prudent controls, strong governance, and effective risk management. The OCC will continue to use the remedial measures at its disposal, including civil money penalties and cease and desist orders, to deter unsafe and unsound practices.

    Related Link
    NR 2013-140 "OCC Assesses $300,000,000 Civil Money Penalty Against JPMorgan Chase, N.A., Related to Derivatives Trading Activity"
    # # #


    The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC) charters and oversees a nationwide system of national banks and federal savings associations and assures that these banking institutions are safe and sound, competitive, and capable of serving the banking needs of their customers in the best possible manner. OCC press releases and other information are available at http://www.occ.gov. To receive OCC press releases and issuances by e-mail, subscribe at http://www.occ.gov/tools-forms/subsc...t-service.html.

    Subscribe / Unsubscribe to receive OCC press releases and issuances by e-mail.

    Interestingly this penalty is the same amount backing the original US notes. A rare glimpse inside a Treasury vault on the SE Corner of the Golden Rectangle Survey reveals a lot about this. One might understand my emphasis better by remembering that the SW Corner is the 1861 Capital of the Territory where Governor GILPIN first issued the fiat that led to the US notes from Washington. GILPIN.


    Perhaps more interestingly the best comprehensive collection of history is on the NW Corner - at the Freemason library and museum.



    P.S. Enjoy this!

    Last edited by David Merrill; 09-22-13 at 09:23 AM.

  10. #10

    Cool "Check Cashing Application"

    Hello...

    I'm new to this forum site and upon reading much of this thread I was just wondering what harm there would actually be in completing the aforementioned application (and the thumb print, and..whatever else the bank requires to get my cash) since it may indeed be part of bank policy? Don't get me wrong, I would love to avoid all the hassle and invasion of privacy junk I'd be subjected to, but I'm not yet at that level of feeling confidant enough to engage the banksters in the manner in which you gentleman (or women) have suggested. I would appreciate any advice or encouragement you can muster as I will be entering my local BofA (as a non-customer) on Monday morning to cash a $10,000+ check (Allstate auto claim settlement), drawn on their Atlanta, GA branch (I'm in CA) I am doing it this way as I am not interested (nor do I have the time) in having my own bank (BBVA Compass) place a 3-7 day hold on said funds request.

    Secondly...would you recommend I take my check directly to the teller window, or, should I "sign in" and wait for a "desk jockey", or manager, to address my request with? I am willing to quote 12 U.S.C. § 411 : US Code - Section 411 on the endorsement line, though, I'm not sure what kind of look I'll receive upon doing that

    Thanks in advance for any wisdom you may offer on this matter.

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