Redeeming Lawful Money on Daily Paul

[mikecz]

I was driving home today and I just came to the stark realization that, at least I believe, everything in the United States purchased using FRNs, which is basically everything on the fruited plains, is owned by the federal reserve (at least they have 1st lien on it, ahead of anyone else).

I think about it like this, the treasury prints up 20 billion in bonds, the fed prints up 20 billion in notes and gives it to the treasury(who is charged interest payable only payable in gold (i read this online somewhere but couldn't confirm)), well say the treasury goes and buys a building with the money. Well, the treasury owes the federal reserve just like you owe your bank on your mortgage, if you don't pay, where does your house go. If the treasury doesn't pay, where does the building go. Instead of the treasury actually buying these things with the notes, well, they bestow this power to purchase things to us, the debt creators, and we happily oblige.

Damn. I feel a dark cloud above. This is some dark shit man...

(that 1984 article was a great read by the way), is there a way to value lawful money? It has to have some difference, and currency reserves in some non-member banks require it's possession.

[martin earl]

I was driving home today and I just came to the stark realization that, at least I believe, everything in the United States purchased using FRNs, which is basically everything on the fruited plains, is owned by the federal reserve (at least they have 1st lien on it, ahead of anyone else).

I think about it like this, the treasury prints up 20 billion in bonds, the fed prints up 20 billion in notes and gives it to the treasury(who is charged interest payable only payable in gold (i read this online somewhere but couldn't confirm)), well say the treasury goes and buys a building with the money. Well, the treasury owes the federal reserve just like you owe your bank on your mortgage, if you don't pay, where does your house go. If the treasury doesn't pay, where does the building go. Instead of the treasury actually buying these things with the notes, well, they bestow this power to purchase things to us, the debt creators, and we happily oblige.

Damn. I feel a dark cloud above. This is some dark shit man...

(that 1984 article was a great read by the way), is there a way to value lawful money? It has to have some difference, and currency reserves in some non-member banks require it's possession.

That also means there is no (or very limited) property ownership in the US. I would venture to say if one was IN the US and endorsing the Federal Reserve note, ownership of any property is not possible.

I would also say one cannot be "in" the US while demanding lawful money redemption, I always think of my demand as a passing of a port.

[mikecz]

I think this to be a more pertinent issue when applying to taxes then the whole freeman movement. I've done quite a bit of research in that field, and I think both subjects do have some points of intersection, but coming to the realization is mind boggling.

I've read an SDR is a basket of currencies, 4 in particular (the euro, yen, pound, and the dollar). I wander if the value of an SDR is based on lawful money?

Also, have you read anything about the Federal Reserve demanding payment of interest in gold?

[martin earl]

I think this to be a more pertinent issue when applying to taxes then the whole freeman movement. I've done quite a bit of research in that field, and I think both subjects do have some points of intersection, but coming to the realization is mind boggling.

I've read an SDR is a basket of currencies, 4 in particular (the euro, yen, pound, and the dollar). I wander if the value of an SDR is based on lawful money?

Also, have you read anything about the Federal Reserve demanding payment of interest in gold?

I have not seen anything about the Fed demanding gold, although if they did, they could not touch the 300 million in gold coins (at face value) held by the Treasury in trust for backing "lawful money" in circulation.

These coins were issued to the public, taken back to fund the War of Federal aggression (Civil War), Gold certificates issued for them were redeemed after the War.

Those same coins were "seized" again in 1933-34 under the "New Deal" of FDR. If any commodity is demanded by the FED for payment, it would be gold (in any form) issued and sold commercially and not the 300 million backing my (our) demand for lawful money, it is a matter of Federal by law those Gold coins cannot be touched.

The FED only has a first lien on "all good and services" "specifically held" to back the Feds credit. That is the essence of redemption, once redeemed, it is no longer backing the Federal Reserve (not just money, but the people as well).

[Chex]

Gold Banks
Associations may be organized under the National Banking Act for the purpose of issuing bank notes payable in gold. (See " Circulation.") Such banks are known as "National Gold Banks," or " Gold Banks," and to take out such circulation must deposit with the Treasurer of the United States, in the same manner as prescribed for the taking out of ordinary circulation, United States bonds bearing interest but payable in gold,1 but not exceeding eighty per cent, of the par value of the bonds deposited. These notes are payable upon presentation at the bank of issue in gold coin of the United States and shall be so redeemable.

1 While the 2% Consols of 1930 are the only bonds which are payable.

While Section 5185 of the United States Revised Statutes, authorizing the organization of "gold banks" has not actually been repealed, practically this result was obtained, however, by the Act of Feb. 14, 1880, authorizing the conversion of " gold banks" into " currency banks." As a result, there are, to-day, no "gold banks" in existence.

Read more: http://chestofbooks.com/finance/inve...#ixzz2IeFecgVi

Special Depository - Specialties

Special Depository
This will be understood by reading "United States Depository."
Special Indorsement

One which specifies the person or to the order of whom payment shall thereafter be made, and which calls for the indorsement of the party to whom it was made payable before it can be further negotiated; as, for example, suppose a note is made payable to Henry Adams. He makes a "special indorsement " by writing across the back "Pay to James Frazer or order," and then signing his own name below; i. e. "Henry Adams." By this form James Frazer is specified as the person to whose order the paper shall afterward be paid, and he must indorse it before it can be further negotiated.

Read more: http://chestofbooks.com/finance/inve...#ixzz2IeEGr186

United States Depository
The Secretary of the Treasury is authorized to appoint any national bank as a "depository" for the moneys of the United States Government. This is a method which the Government adopts in order that a portion, at least, of the large sums of money which it often accumulates may get into use. It is conceivable that the Government receipts might be so large that an enormous amount of money could go into its hands and thus out of circulation, making such a contraction that there would be a scarcity of money for actual use, and it is to prevent such contingencies to even a small degree that this plan has been adopted.

The Government does employ national banks as depositories for other reasons than the above. It has what are called "permanent depositories," in localities where the principal offices of internal revenue collectors are located, or where sales of public lands occur, for the purpose of receiving the proceeds of such collections or sales; also " special depositories " in which post-office money-orders and United States Court funds are kept.
Any bank accepting the appointment, as above, must give satisfactory security by the deposit with the Treasury Department of United States Government bonds and otherwise.

The Secretary of the Treasury at one time construed the law as permitting him, at his discretion, to accept other than Government bonds, which may, in his judgment, furnish sufficient security. There is an impression among many leading financiers that this is a bad precedent, and might, sometime, lead to an abuse of the privilege.1

Read more: http://chestofbooks.com/finance/inve...#ixzz2IeEST9FF

[mikecz]

Ok,

With this I take issue.

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/28/137394...t-nobody-wants

United States currency notes...
(1) may not be more than $300,000,000; and
(2) may not be held or used for a reserve.

I'm thinking now United States currency notes are indeed lawful money, but, there are other types of lawful money. Coin being one of them. Now, the law doesn't state you can only have 300,000,000 in lawful money, its only 300,000,000 in United States currency notes. Therefore, I'm finding it difficult to connect lawful money as being inelastic. In the article above, "they say" there is 1 billion in coin, which is well above the inelastic 300,000,000 number. Could it be construed that these 1 dollar coins aren't in circulation?

Thanks

[David Merrill]

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releas...1108assets.htm

Damn. I feel a dark cloud above. This is some dark shit man...

(that 1984 article was a great read by the way), is there a way to value lawful money? It has to have some difference, and currency reserves in some non-member banks require it's possession.

I believe that at the Amendments to the Bretton Woods Agreements (Secret Jamaica Rambouillet Accord included) the IMF Trust Fund was established at the current earmark of international gold. Look at the Footnotes.

I have not seen anything about the Fed demanding gold, although if they did, they could not touch the 300 million in gold coins (at face value) held by the Treasury in trust for backing "lawful money" in circulation.

These coins were issued to the public, taken back to fund the War of Federal aggression (Civil War), Gold certificates issued for them were redeemed after the War.

Those same coins were "seized" again in 1933-34 under the "New Deal" of FDR. If any commodity is demanded by the FED for payment, it would be gold (in any form) issued and sold commercially and not the 300 million backing my (our) demand for lawful money, it is a matter of Federal by law those Gold coins cannot be touched.

The FED only has a first lien on "all good and services" "specifically held" to back the Feds credit. That is the essence of redemption, once redeemed, it is no longer backing the Federal Reserve (not just money, but the people as well).

I am quickly being convinced that I have found the gold coins. This is a fascinating journey. Those coins are located in the American Numismatic Association museum on the SE Corner of the Golden Rectangle. Like I tell in my first video that whole Rectangle exploration came to me in a dream.

The dream went like this. I had discovered a "map" composed of the Masonic monuments here in Colorado Springs. I went to the middle of the symbol (I did not get the shape until I went to the monuments with GPS equipment) and was in a grove of trees. Most of the area in the Rectangle is Open Spaces like found in the 1313 METRO thread. In the middle of the trees the ground was soft and sandy - easy digging. I found an old wooden chest buried and opened it to find it filled with gold coins! It was one of the best dreams of my life! I found a movie called Bloodline with a similar scene as my dream.

Ok,

With this I take issue.

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/28/137394...t-nobody-wants

United States currency notes...
(1) may not be more than $300,000,000; and
(2) may not be held or used for a reserve.

I'm thinking now United States currency notes are indeed lawful money, but, there are other types of lawful money. Coin being one of them. Now, the law doesn't state you can only have 300,000,000 in lawful money, its only 300,000,000 in United States currency notes. Therefore, I'm finding it difficult to connect lawful money as being inelastic. In the article above, "they say" there is 1 billion in coin, which is well above the inelastic 300,000,000 number. Could it be construed that these 1 dollar coins aren't in circulation?

Thanks

Yes. United States currency notes are all forms of lawful money. United States notes were not included in the United States currency notes until Congress decided to do that in order for Title 31 to be reenacted into positive law. Look at the Notes in the Section you cite.

I thought Congress simply changed the name of United States notes to coerce this pegging to the FRN in value. Oddly I got a call from two women who were both attorneys by their knowledge of Code. They instructed me where to look to discover for myself that United States notes were bundled into United States currency notes. I could probably find that citation, I am sure I still have it but have to remember key words and where I would have saved it.

[martin earl]

Ok,

With this I take issue.

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/28/137394...t-nobody-wants


United States currency notes...
(1) may not be more than $300,000,000; and
(2) may not be held or used for a reserve.

I'm thinking now United States currency notes are indeed lawful money, but, there are other types of lawful money. Coin being one of them. Now, the law doesn't state you can only have 300,000,000 in lawful money, its only 300,000,000 in United States currency notes. Therefore, I'm finding it difficult to connect lawful money as being inelastic. In the article above, "they say" there is 1 billion in coin, which is well above the inelastic 300,000,000 number. Could it be construed that these 1 dollar coins aren't in circulation?

Thanks

The amount is for paper money (called then US Bank Notes) the "coins" in questions were not only 1 dollar coins, but all the gold coins in circulation from the US Mint in the 1800s up till 1933.

The Federal statute from above is specific to "United States currency Notes" which never were Federal Reserve notes. The clad coins today are only lawful money in that they are:

1. Issued by the US Treasury and contain some material that is consideration.

2. Valued at face value.

3. Coined by the power granted to congress in the Constitution and to set the value there of.

US Notes (paper currency) have always been BACKED by actual gold or silver reserves and sometimes redeemable directly for that gold or silver at face value. The US has suspended the direct redeem-ability of US Notes in any form in times of emergency. Such is the case since 1933.

The US Notes are still backed by lawful money (in fact, the exact same Coins are backing them, I believe) but the notes are not being directly redeemed for those coins. This is why the recorded Demand for lawful money per 12-USC 411
is so powerful.

That demand puts the US government in very dangerous position of NOT obeying its own law (12 USC 411 "shall be redeemed on demand). And it puts the one demanding the redemption in the position of the Creditor and the US in the position of the DEBTOR and the one with the obligation to pay.


You have to be careful to watch the words being used, because not all rules on lawful money or currency apply both coins and/or paper.

[shikamaru]

I'm thinking now United States currency notes are indeed lawful money, but, there are other types of lawful money. Coin being one of them.

US Treasuries and agency treasuries are considered lawful money.

In fact, these are the underpinnings of FRNs currently.

Essentially, commercial paper issued by the Department of the Treasury and other US governmental agencies are the lawful money supporting the issuing of FRNs.