Can God die

[Frederick Burrell]

"Rapture Doctrine is Trite Nonsense. If anyone here wants to pick up that argument - I say bring it on. Lets get it on and lets explore that argument before this assembly" Michael Joseph

You will get no argument from me.....

But I feel that just as there has been a time of forgetfulness there will be a time of remembering. RE-Activation of our DNA. Your Thought Joseph Michael would be most welcome. Frederick Burrell

[Michael Joseph]

"Rapture Doctrine is Trite Nonsense. If anyone here wants to pick up that argument - I say bring it on. Lets get it on and lets explore that argument before this assembly" Michael Joseph

You will get no argument from me.....

But I feel that just as there has been a time of forgetfulness there will be a time of remembering. RE-Activation of our DNA. Your Thought Joseph Michael would be most welcome. Frederick Burrell

Thank you Frederick Burrell. Please elaborate. Do you want to discuss vibrations/frequencies in regard to DNA or do you want to delve into the fallacy of Rapture Doctrine?

Granted this discussion has as its basis the Masoretic and the Septuagint Texts. Should you desire we can go into Quantum Mechanics and explore dimensions in relation to frequency. Yet, I think if you want to discuss Quantum Physics and God then we will need to start a new thread.

Thank you for engaging.

Shalom,
mj

[Axe]

Hey everybody,

MJ, I find your assertions stimulating, and I have no desire to "force my point of view" onto you or anyone else I do find it necessary to refute some of what you say. Not for the purpose of "arguing", but because I feel that those reading this in the future may be influenced, I believe incorrectly.

I'm surprised at how far you have to reach in order to make your case for the serpent seed doctrine. I like to keep it simple. Maybe that makes me simple minded, maybe not. I believe the truth is always simple.

It is the enemy of truth that must be complicated. First, I want to talk about "context". Specifically "proximity context". When interpreting the Holy Scriptures it's everything. It simply means that one has to consider the immediate proximity of language around whatever is in question.

This will always take precedence over any implied meanings taken from further away.

The word "tree" is used similarly throughout the chapter in question. The Hebrew as well. The tree of life: The tree of knowledge of good and evil.

You can't have it both ways. Either both were really trees, or both were really something else. And don't forget about all the other "trees" in the garden.

There is only one logical answer.

And there were no other "people" as you assert in the garden or in creation.

Male and Female He created them. Them is plural because that is the correct vernacular when talking about "male and female", not, I believe because there were "others" apart from Adam and Eve. Again, context.

And there is a bloodline for Cain; Gen 4:17. And the answer to your direct question is right there in Gen 4:1. Adam is his father. Nuff said about that.

I could go on and on, but I found a great piece which I will paste below. Mostly because I don't want to plagiarize the guy, even by accident.

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Two additional distinguishing and erroneous doctrines of the Shepherd's Chapel are known as the Serpent Seed doctrine and the Kenite doctrine. The two are intimately related. The Serpent Seed doctrine is the teaching that in the Garden of Eden, the serpent (the devil) had sexual relations with Eve. The result was that she bore Cain. The descendents of Cain are called Kenites. Abel, however, is the result of Adam and Eve having relations.

Arnold Murray, the pastor of the Shepherd's Chapel, is the primary advocate of these doctrines which he adamantly teaches and which his followers have adopted as biblical truth. Mr. Murray states,

"When you look for the in-depth meaning of "men as trees, walking", you are able to see that Christ wants us to understand there are plantings of God and plantings of the devil. The plantings of that wicked one began in the garden of Eden with the conception of Cain and follow down through his progeny, the Kenites."
(Newsletter #195, Jan 1995. See also, #202, August 1995).

The Kenites, according to Mr. Murray, must be exposed. "We must continue to teach who the Kenites are," says Mr. Murray, (Newsletter #190, August 1994). He states that the Kenites survived the flood (he denies the global flood) and are found in the lineage of Israel, not Judah, (Newsletter #179, Sept. 1993). Eventually, the Kenites permeated the nation of Israel and are the ones who shouted "Crucify Him," in reference to Jesus, (Newsletter #179, Sept. 1993).

In an attempt at biblical support, on his website at Answers to Critics, Mr. Murray states:

"In Gen. 3:15 God is speaking to the serpent, 'and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise his heel.'"

Mr. Murray infers that when God says "thy seed" to Satan, He is referring to the Kenites, the descendents of Cain which were produced through the literal "seed" of Satan.

Mr. Murray is wrong. We do not really know exactly what form Satan was in the Garden, though I will submit to God's word and affirm it was a serpent of some sort. Now the Hebrew word used there is "nachash" and it means "serpent" or "snake." If we take the word literally as snake, then Mr. Murray would be forced to explain how a literal snake could have sexual intercourse with Eve.

If Mr. Murray were to acknowledge the potential of a figurative usage of the term here, then he needs to explain why the term "serpent" would be figurative and the term "seed" would be literal. Furthermore, if the serpent were Satan in a different form, and Eve spoke to the serpent, then did Eve have sex with a snake or with a different form of the snake; that is, did the snake change into another more apropos form to consummate his deception?

If so, wouldn't Eve have been suspicious of a talking snake that changes form into something else with which she then agrees to have sexual intercourse? As you can see, the issue, from Mr. Murray's perspective, is wrought with problems.

Nevertheless, his entire position on the Serpent Seed doctrine is easily refuted when we examine Gen. 4:1:

"Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, 'I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.'"

We can see that the Bible clearly tells us who the Father of Cain is: Adam. The Serpent Seed idea is proven wrong.

In addition, it is more natural to attribute the term "seed" in Gen. 3:15 as a reference to the spiritual decedents of Satan, not his literal ones. We can see that being a true spiritual descendent is by faith, not by biology. Consider the following verses which speak of spiritual identification.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God," (Rom. 2:28-29).

"For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God," (Rom. 8:14).

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him," (Rom. 8:16-17).

"That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants," (Rom. 9:8).

Clearly, being a descendent has a spiritual quality. Likewise, Satan's descendents are those who identify with him in his lies. This is why Jesus said in John 8:44 to the Pharisees,

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies."

In addition, "seed" is also referred to as the word of God (Matt. 13:18-23; Luke 8:11; 1 Pet. 1:23) and as the spiritual life in (1 John 3:9). The whole flavor of spiritual identification with God is included in terms of being the offspring of God (Gal. 3:29; Acts 17:28) and the children of God (Rom. 8:16-17).

Consider 1 John 3:9 which says, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Obviously, the Christian does not contain the literal seed of God in him. Seed here, must refer to a spiritual element of indwelling, of ideology, and of faith.

That is why the Christian does not practice sin. It is against his beliefs and confession before God and man. Therefore, God's seed abides in the Christian, but it isn't literal seed, it is a reference to spiritual identification.
Us against Them

The Serpent Seed doctrine is an unscriptural and unfortunate teaching. From it is derived an "us against them" mentality in which anyone who disagrees with Mr. Murray can easily be accused of being a Kenite. This is obvious in some of his quotes:

"How many today are teaching from a quarterly written by a Kenite, rather than teaching from God's Word? (Newsletter #193, Nov. 1994).

How can we sum this up? If you are doing God's will, don't worry about criticism from others. "Well, Pastor Murray they say we are a cult." Who cares what they say? God is on our side. Victory is a certainty. Does it ever seem like the enemy is winning?

Anytime you get to feeling this way, turn to Psalms 9. This Psalm tells us what we should be earnestly expecting. Keep the meaning of "apokaradokia" in mind as we read this Psalm. (Newsletter #229 - November 1997).

Of course, if you study with him you are not being deceived, but if you are studying elsewhere, you're studying with a Kenite or siding with the enemy. Such are the machinations of this leader who teaches false doctrines.

Taken from: http://carm.org/serpent-seed-and-kenites

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Thank you for starting this thread. The discussion is welcome and has prompted me to increase the volume of my own study as well.

Kindly,

T.

[Frederick Burrell]

Thank you Frederick Burrell. Please elaborate. Do you want to discuss vibrations/frequencies in regard to DNA or do you want to delve into the fallacy of Rapture Doctrine?

Granted this discussion has as its basis the Masoretic and the Septuagint Texts. Should you desire we can go into Quantum Mechanics and explore dimensions in relation to frequency. Yet, I think if you want to discuss Quantum Physics and God then we will need to start a new thread.

Thank you for engaging.

Shalom,
mj

Yes perhaps another thread would be appropriate. I was thinking more along the lines of energies coming into the planets and how it effects our DNA and consciousness. But perhaps another time or should I say thread. I thought is relative in regards to the conversation in regards to rapture. frederick burrell

[Michael Joseph]

Yes perhaps another thread would be appropriate. I was thinking more along the lines of energies coming into the planets and how it effects our DNA and consciousness. But perhaps another time or should I say thread. I thought is relative in regards to the conversation in regards to rapture. frederick burrell

Perhaps you can express another thread and we can engage that discussion there?