View Full Version : Adventures in land ownership
Treefarmer
04-05-11, 11:48 PM
In 1996 I decided to buy some rural land in south-east Tennessee, for the purpose of homesteading and living healthy.
I wanted more than 5 acres, my own springs, and it had to be cheap; I only had $35,000 in lawful money and no desire to go into debt.
The price constraint ruled out farm land, existing buildings, and other improvements such as utilities.
I placed wanted ads in some small local papers and got quite a few responses.
I narrowed down the choices and started looking at the offers, even camping out over night on some land to get a feel for it and meet the neighbors.
After some searching I found the right plot of ground.
Because I was young, ignorant, and not at all fluent in the local language, I hired a lawyer to help me close the deal.
There was only one law office in the entire area, which only had one lawyer who was the owner.
He also dealt in real estate.
He already knew I wanted to buy land, because he was one of the respondents to my wanted ad. We found out that he did not have the land that I was looking for, but he offered his legal services, which I took him up on.
He explained to me that the paperwork had to be written up a certain way and told me horror stories of people who got screwed because their paperwork was not just right.
Other locals I met on my search for land told me that this lawyer/real estate seller was a no-good crook, and I should not trust him or buy land from him.
The people who told me this seemed no more confidence inspiring than that lawyer though, who had a calm and polite bearing.
After I had found the land I wanted to buy I went to his very small and modest looking law office in the tiny nearby town and hired him for the closing and the title work.
All I knew about "land purchase" at the time was from my parents who had bought "real estate" three times in the US of A, but always with a mortgage.
He drew up the following Real Estate Purchase Agreement for me to use.
See attachments.
Notice the mention of lawful money on the first page.
Continued below...
Treefarmer
04-06-11, 12:01 AM
There were 7 pages in he R.E. Purchase Agreement, the last of which had a small copy of a survey map, which I'm omitting here.
What really struck me as odd at the time was the fact that this incredibly lengthy document did not contain any of the words that I would have expected it to contain, i.e. buy and land, and perhaps own, owner, springs, water, etc.
I asked the lawyer about this and he said that the document contained the proper terms and this is why I really needed him to help me, because I did not know the proper wording.
I didn't know what else to do, so I went along with the proposed scheme.
I believe I got attorned, knowing what I know now.
Next, I'll post the deed documents that were recorded at the County Register of Deeds office.
David Merrill
04-06-11, 12:34 AM
What a wonderful start to an amazing thread!
Thank you Treefarmer.
shikamaru
04-06-11, 12:50 AM
If they can do title insurance, couldn't the just as easily conduct a title abstract?
Section 9 (b)(iii) with the affidavit makes me wonder too ...
Treefarmer
04-06-11, 03:10 AM
If they can do title insurance, couldn't the just as easily conduct a title abstract?
Section 9 (b)(iii) with the affidavit makes me wonder too ...
Yes, makes me wonder too.
I have no idea what that is all about.
Michael Joseph
04-06-11, 03:15 AM
Yes, makes me wonder too.
I have no idea what that is all about.
Upon inspection of that Agreement, it looks fairly standard to me. What say you Bigred?
KnowLaw
04-06-11, 06:45 AM
If they can do title insurance, couldn't the just as easily conduct a title abstract?
Section 9 (b)(iii) with the affidavit makes me wonder too ...
Precisely, shikamaru. Tree Farmer was correct in his evaluation of this deal: he got attorned (i.e. screwed)!
In fact the whole Section 9 (b) i, ii, and iii is a dead giveaway that this contract maintains the statutory status of the contract. Title insurance is only recommended in such contracts in lieu of an abstract of title. Whenever you agree to such a contractual stipulation, you operate within the statutory realm.
Also, the fact that a Warranty Deed was issued is also a dead giveaway as this is only evidence of "title under color of law," but not yet title in fact. If you can trace the land back to a land patent, you're in much better shape with regard to being able to claim an "allodial" nature of ownership. Better yet would have been to obtain a Grant Deed from the seller, forego the involvement of the attorney, and not record that instrument with any statutory authority (i.e. the county or the state) but only "notice" them (i.e. the county assessor) of the change in ownership as recordation is now seen as "registration" of property with the statutory authority. When you record a deed these days you've just entered into a contract with the county and the state, which operates as a "kind of" parens patriae in commerce to maintain the commercial viability of the property within their "legal" system of governance. You are, however, under no obligation to avail yourself of the state's services in matters such as this, is my understanding of the matter.
There are ways to correct this. When I have more free time (months away at this point, as I am buried in work that takes priority over any project that would entail a detailed explanation of law in matters such as this) I will return with my findings based on my practical experience and open a thread to explain what I have learned and accomplished and how others can go about following suit. I have recently taken the property I own out of the statutory realm and provided notice of such to the appropriate county officials.
This is not that difficult to understand or to accomplish once you have access to a reading of the law that you can rely upon as an ultimate authority. I've spent the better part of the last two years studying this and have all the legal citations (or at least a great many of them) to back it up.
shikamaru
04-06-11, 06:25 PM
The warranty deed appears to make the seller the underwriter for the title of the land if title is determined to be bad by a court ....
Registration is necessary for purposes of taxation and I suspect bond-writing by the (municipal) corporation.
Michael Joseph
04-06-11, 07:14 PM
The warranty deed appears to make the seller the underwriter for the title of the land if title is determined to be bad by a court ....
Registration is necessary for purposes of taxation and I suspect bond-writing by the (municipal) corporation.
The Warranty Deed does not appear to - the Warranty Deed does exactly that. And In FACT, the GENERAL WARRANTY DEED is for all time past and present.
If you are gonna play with DEEDS - you need to make yourself familiar with - a BARGAIN AND SALE DEED.
Look it up for yourself - you will be glad you did!
shikamaru
04-06-11, 10:35 PM
The Warranty Deed does not appear to - the Warranty Deed does exactly that. And In FACT, the GENERAL WARRANTY DEED is for all time past and present.
If you are gonna play with DEEDS - you need to make yourself familiar with - a BARGAIN AND SALE DEED.
Look it up for yourself - you will be glad you did!
I am most partial to quitclaim deeds myself :).
Michael Joseph
04-06-11, 11:48 PM
I most partial to quitclaim deeds myself :).
yes that one is very good. I got a bridge ON the territory California to sell to you - will you accept a "quit-claim" deed? I would not take a "quit-claim" deed unless I really trusted the one who caused the equity transfer was lawfully with a simple FEE.
Treefarmer
04-07-11, 12:12 AM
Precisely, shikamaru. Tree Farmer was correct in his evaluation of this deal: he got attorned (i.e. screwed)!
In fact the whole Section 9 (b) i, ii, and iii is a dead giveaway that this contract maintains the statutory status of the contract. Title insurance is only recommended in such contracts in lieu of an abstract of title. Whenever you agree to such a contractual stipulation, you operate within the statutory realm.
Also, the fact that a Warranty Deed was issued is also a dead giveaway as this is only evidence of "title under color of law," but not yet title in fact. If you can trace the land back to a land patent, you're in much better shape with regard to being able to claim an "allodial" nature of ownership. Better yet would have been to obtain a Grant Deed from the seller, forego the involvement of the attorney, and not record that instrument with any statutory authority (i.e. the county or the state) but only "notice" them (i.e. the county assessor) of the change in ownership as recordation is now seen as "registration" of property with the statutory authority. When you record a deed these days you've just entered into a contract with the county and the state, which operates as a "kind of" parens patriae in commerce to maintain the commercial viability of the property within their "legal" system of governance. You are, however, under no obligation to avail yourself of the state's services in matters such as this, is my understanding of the matter.
There are ways to correct this. When I have more free time (months away at this point, as I am buried in work that takes priority over any project that would entail a detailed explanation of law in matters such as this) I will return with my findings based on my practical experience and open a thread to explain what I have learned and accomplished and how others can go about following suit. I have recently taken the property I own out of the statutory realm and provided notice of such to the appropriate county officials.
This is not that difficult to understand or to accomplish once you have access to a reading of the law that you can rely upon as an ultimate authority. I've spent the better part of the last two years studying this and have all the legal citations (or at least a great many of them) to back it up.
How about giving us some leads in the meantime?
I like to read up on things myself.
Thank you.
Treefarmer
04-07-11, 01:38 AM
Continuing:
After I got the Real Estate Purchase Agreement document from the lawyer, I met with the seller of the property, or land, at his kitchen table and I gave him a cashiers' check for $30,000 and $5,000 in cash.
He signed the paperwork and we shook hands and that sealed the deal.
Then I took that signed Purchase Agreement to the lawyer to "draw up the paper work".
He also recommended that I "purchase" title insurance, which he also sold, and I agreed to that too.
Then the lawyer asked me about the purchase price and I, feeling put on the spot and confused about it, said $25,000. Since I didn't know what I was doing, that seemed like a good compromise at the time.
Something didn't sit right with me about that though, because the purchase agreement didn't name the price, and I felt like that was none of the lawyer's business.
He tricked me into disclosing a sum though by having a blank space on the deed for the purchase price, so I thought it had to be provided.
In hindsight, I did not have to disclose that private deal at all!
I have since noticed that most recorded deeds say nothing about how much the land was sold for.
Attorned again!
A few days later I went by the lawyer's office and picked up the completed WARRANTY DEED and paid him for it.
The document was stapled to a blue piece of heavy paper, the exact same color which Motla68 showed on his picture of his private agreement, which he called Robin egg blue. Not sure I've ever seen a robin egg, and I noticed that Motla68 may be banned now, but it makes me wonder about the symbolism of it. Does anyone know about this?
The lawyer said I needed to record the Warranty Deed at the County Court House.
When I went there, I was surprised that I had to pay a hefty "transfer tax" which was a percentage of the purchase price.
I knew I was getting screwed, only I didn't know what to do about it.
I felt like I didn't have a choice and paid up.
I've attached the sanitized Warranty Deed.
Treefarmer
04-07-11, 02:35 AM
Continuing:
I acquired another adjacent 5 acres some years down the road from my mother, who gave it to me as a wedding present.
She had originally bought it to build a cabin on it, so she could visit me and spend time in the woods.
Then she realized she liked neither the climate, nor the chiggers (red bugs), nor the native Tennessean culture, and especially not my new husband, so voilà - the perfect wedding gift.
I am very grateful and appreciative of this of course and I do count my blessings, realizing my unworthiness:p
This tract of land had been bought for $15,000, paid in cashier's check in a private deal with the neighbors, who also live next door.
The Warranty Deed shows as purchase price the $ amount of an old assessment value though.
Interesting how that works.
Again, it seems like it was unnecessary to put any price on there, because none of the previous owners' deeds showed purchase prices. These are private land deals after all.
Attorned again, this time by a new lawyer, who took over that only law office, after the previous lawyer I had dealt with was promoted to county court judge.
I noticed that the new lawyer did not utilize the blue paper wrappers, which the previous lawyer had been in the habit of stapling to the deed documents.
I did not purchase title insurance on this one.
My mother had purchased the title insurance, and I was getting tired of being attorned, so I let it go. I figured the title was probably good.
I had to pay a transfer tax at the court house again when I registered my deed.
Attached is the Warranty Deed for the 5 acres.
Treefarmer
04-07-11, 02:36 AM
I'm noticing that the quality of the attachments is really bad.
Anybody have any ideas how I can get it to look better?
Michael Joseph
04-07-11, 02:48 AM
I'm noticing that the quality of the attachments is really bad.
Anybody have any ideas how I can get it to look better?
If you have a professional version of Adobe Acrobat, you could print to Adobe.
Get a look at the TO HAVE AND TO HOLD CLAUSE - see that word "Forever"...
Treefarmer
04-07-11, 03:01 PM
If you have a professional version of Adobe Acrobat, you could print to Adobe.
Get a look at the TO HAVE AND TO HOLD CLAUSE - see that word "Forever"...
Unfortunately I don't have Adobe Acrobat.
I'm trying out some MS office picture manager possibilities right now.
I see that word "forever", yes.
What about it specifically were you referring to?
shikamaru
04-07-11, 08:31 PM
yes that one is very good. I got a bridge ON the territory California to sell to you - will you accept a "quit-claim" deed? I would not take a "quit-claim" deed unless I really trusted the one who caused the equity transfer was lawfully with a simple FEE.
And this is why you request the title abstract along with the quitclaim deed.
Michael Joseph
04-07-11, 08:44 PM
And this is why you request the title abstract along with the quitclaim deed.
I suppose it depends of perspective. If I can sell you an interest by way of assignment, by and thru the Trustee, then we don't need a DEED. This is much,much more superior to any of these DEEDS discussed herein.
If you are one who wants a DEED, then I am going to issue one of three - Limited Warranty Deed, Bargain and Sale Deed or Quit-Claim. If you want a Title Search, then do it yourself or pay an attorney. If you are one who uses banks, then you will be forced to get a title search.
But I can guarantee, that in the Purchase and Sale Agreement, I am NOT paying for it.
----------------------------
Transfer into Trust - Warranty Deed to Trustee. When you want to sell - Assign beneficial interest to another party. Substitute Trustees....have a nice day.
The Trust is Superior.
-------------------------------------
There was one who asked concerning the word "Forever". That's a mighty long time......See the trust.....READ carefully the "TO HAVE AND TO HOLD CLAUSE......I hope after you do you can see the trust.
Reader - the Legal Title is NEVER impaired or even Transferred. It is the equitable Title that is transferred in Trust. Therefore the Property NEVER leaves the Trust - Forever.
Is property the land or the house? If you answer yes, then you do not understand the trust.
shikamaru
04-08-11, 05:45 PM
I suppose it depends of perspective. If I can sell you an interest by way of assignment, by and thru the Trustee, then we don't need a DEED. This is much,much more superior to any of these DEEDS discussed herein.
If you are one who wants a DEED, then I am going to issue one of three - Limited Warranty Deed, Bargain and Sale Deed or Quit-Claim. If you want a Title Search, then do it yourself or pay an attorney. If you are one who uses banks, then you will be forced to get a title search.
But I can guarantee, that in the Purchase and Sale Agreement, I am NOT paying for it.
----------------------------
Transfer into Trust - Warranty Deed to Trustee. When you want to sell - Assign beneficial interest to another party. Substitute Trustees....have a nice day.
The Trust is Superior.
-------------------------------------
There was one who asked concerning the word "Forever". That's a mighty long time......See the trust.....READ carefully the "TO HAVE AND TO HOLD CLAUSE......I hope after you do you can see the trust.
Reader - the Legal Title is NEVER impaired or even Transferred. It is the equitable Title that is transferred in Trust. Therefore the Property NEVER leaves the Trust - Forever.
Is property the land or the house? If you answer yes, then you do not understand the trust.
If selling the interest in land, assuming the seller has the whole interest, all papers concerning the land would be turned over to the buyer including plat map, first title deed (land patent), title abstract (all deeds chaining back to the first title deed), and conveyance deed.
If the person (seller) really was on his toes he would include all treaties, acts, and statutes that have bearing on his first title deed (land patent) as well.
This is if the seller was on the ball ...
Michael Joseph
04-08-11, 07:36 PM
If selling the interesting in land, assuming the seller has the whole interest, all papers concerning the land would be turned over to the buyer including plat map, first title deed (land patent), title abstract (all deeds leading back to chaining to the first title deed), and conveyance deed.
If the person (seller) really was on his toes he would include all treaties, acts, and statutes that have bearing on his first title deed (land patent) as well.
This is if the seller was on the ball ...
Now, that is true. A land patent [some states grant] can not be encroached upon. Notice the Grant comes forth from within a parent trust. I mean a King did issue forth that Grant, yes? King, as Trustee for his estate in Trust.
Try as you might you will not escape 1st Sam 8. If you are talking Grant, Trust, estate, then you are talking Property. If you are talking Property, you are not talking about matter or thought, you are talking Right of Use.
shikamaru
04-09-11, 03:23 PM
Land patents issued by the government of the United States are in the form of a quitclaim deed.
The land was held in trust for the States by the United States. Various states ceded their land claims to the United States upon joining the Union.
Michael Joseph
04-09-11, 03:35 PM
Land patents issued by the government of the United States are in the form of a quitclaim deed.
The land was held in trust for the States by the United States. Various states ceded their land claims to the United States upon joining the Union.
It sounds to me that you have done quite a bit of extensive research in the State archives or in the Land Records Office. So have I. Who granted the land to the States? You cannot get around the King's Grant. The King sent His Citizens, His subjects to settle these new proprietory settlements - commercial ventures. Think me wrong? Let us explore just one such settlement. The Carolinas.
Sir Walter Raleigh, being the Surveyor - so that the Claim could be made....
287
Treefarmer
04-10-11, 01:15 AM
The Quit Claim Deed is the next thing I want to look at in this thread.
Attached is the Quit Claim Deed for the mineral rights to my land, which were conveyed to me separately.
The mineral rights (mining rights as I understand it) to the entire area of Tennessee that I'm in had been held by a holding company which held the assets of a bankrupt mining company.
They were released some years later to a land speculator via Quit Claim Deed (he owned about a thousand acres here) after it was determined that there was nothing to mine here.
My land has never been mined, but there's an old mine about 8 miles away.
More on that history later.
Years ago I met the old land speculator in person and got to ask him some questions about the land.
He passed on the Quit Claimed mineral rights pertaining to my parcel to me shortly before he died.
The so-called "hydrocarbon estate", i.e. any oil, coal or natural gas that may exist beneath the surface of the land I'm on, was never released by the mining companies which used to own all the land here.
It is still being bought and sold separately from the surface land by oil companies, if it indeed exists.
I'll show an example of that later.
I'm trying out a larger file size for the attachments in the hopes it will be legible.
shikamaru
04-10-11, 06:33 PM
It sounds to me that you have done quite a bit of extensive research in the State archives or in the Land Records Office. So have I. Who granted the land to the States? You cannot get around the King's Grant. The King sent His Citizens, His subjects to settle these new proprietory settlements - commercial ventures. Think me wrong? Let us explore just one such settlement. The Carolinas.
Sir Walter Raleigh, being the Surveyor - so that the Claim could be made....
287
I don't doubt your words nor do I contest your questions and points :). The information I typed that you highlighted above is courtesy of David Wilbur Johnson.
Only the 13 colonies would be "King granted land". States created after the 13 colonies were created as territories initially.
Michael Joseph
04-10-11, 09:04 PM
I don't doubt your words nor do I contest your questions and points :). The information I typed that you highlighted above is courtesy of David Wilbur Johnson.
Only the 13 colonies would be "King granted land". States created after the 13 colonies were created as territories initially.
I will accept that. Virginia was on heck of a large State....so was Carolina. Much, Much larger than the boundaries of today. That is why when one went out west one had to "stake a claim". First Survey, then Claim, then Possession, which established Rights of Use.
It is all just trust law based on Real Property Rights.
shikamaru
04-11-11, 10:28 PM
I will accept that. Virginia was on heck of a large State....so was Carolina. Much, Much larger than the boundaries of today.
Yes :). Virginia was HUGE.
That is why when one went out west one had to "stake a claim". First Survey, then Claim, then Possession, which established Rights of Use.
It is all just trust law based on Real Property Rights.
This is similar to what William the Conqueror did with his Doomsday Book. The survey of the land was for purposes of taxation.
Survey is similar in sense to assessment.
Anthony Joseph
04-12-11, 04:02 AM
So then we must understand the hierarchy and "pecking order" of the claims being made.
Who has the power and authority to make the highest claim or hold highest title to Real Property? When we declare and proclaim our standing and character as heirs to the Supreme and Divine Kingdom in God's Trust and demonstrate our competence to self-govern, partially through the exercise and demand, in our own right, to be upon lawful money of exchange, we separate and distinguish ourselves as being upon a superior plane of existence; having a higher right of claim than those who survey the land for the sole purpose of chattelizing the flesh, energy and sweat equity of every living man and woman on this land.
Their claims are founded upon the repugnance and abomination of men as chattel in order to harness and harvest bodies and souls unto themselves for their own selfish gain.
Our claims are founded upon Divine stewardship and husbandry of the land which was promised to us by Almighty God so that we may provide for ourselves, and our families, while endeavoring to live a life that is pleasing to Him.
The inferior creations of men become our servants as all things remain and exist under His hand. Our trust is only and always in Him as our Creator and we subdue and have dominion over all the earth by His command and in His Name. We do not and will not trespass upon another brother and son of God who has equal claim as we do. However, trespass upon another's dishonorable and repugnant creation is impossible for a proclaimed son of God in my opinion. We rather take hold and control by default, and in righteousness, of any and all creations of men which have dishonored our Creator by enslaving his children through the intentionally disguised and concealed mechanism of voluntary servitude.
I believe it is a calling and duty of servants of God, when in the midst of the creations of men, to subdue, cure and redeem these creations in His Name in order to bring the creators unto honor and righteousness. The choice remains as to whether or not that Divine authority is recognized and accepted. The choice made will be judged by Almighty God Him Self.
The purchase and sale agreement looks pretty standard to me. I believe Section 9 (b) iii pertains only to the Seller, and is designed to ensure that the Feds get their tax due. I don't think its binding on the Buyer.
If I am a Buyer, I don't want a QuitClaim Deed, that provides me as the Buyer no protection. A General Warranty Deed indicates that the Seller is going to warrant the clear title to the property all the way back as far as it goes. If Seller gave a Special or Limited Warranty Deed, then seller is warranting title only as long as he owned property. General Warranty Deed is stronger. Title insurance is just that, if there is a title flaw found, the title insurance will pay off.
Michael Joseph
04-12-11, 08:04 PM
So then we must understand the hierarchy and "pecking order" of the claims being made.
Who has the power and authority to make the highest claim or hold highest title to Real Property? When we declare and proclaim our standing and character as heirs to the Supreme and Divine Kingdom in God's Trust and demonstrate our competence to self-govern, partially through the exercise and demand, in our own right, to be upon lawful money of exchange, we separate and distinguish ourselves as being upon a superior plane of existence; having a higher right of claim than those who survey the land for the sole purpose of chattelizing the flesh, energy and sweat equity of every living man and woman on this land.
Their claims are founded upon the repugnance and abomination of men as chattel in order to harness and harvest bodies and souls unto themselves for their own selfish gain.
Our claims are founded upon Divine stewardship and husbandry of the land which was promised to us by Almighty God so that we may provide for ourselves, and our families, while endeavoring to live a life that is pleasing to Him.
The inferior creations of men become our servants as all things remain and exist under His hand. Our trust is only and always in Him as our Creator and we subdue and have dominion over all the earth by His command and in His Name. We do not and will not trespass upon another brother and son of God who has equal claim as we do. However, trespass upon another's dishonorable and repugnant creation is impossible for a proclaimed son of God in my opinion. We rather take hold and control by default, and in righteousness, of any and all creations of men which have dishonored our Creator by enslaving his children through the intentionally disguised and concealed mechanism of voluntary servitude.
I believe it is a calling and duty of servants of God, when in the midst of the creations of men, to subdue, cure and redeem these creations in His Name in order to bring the creators unto honor and righteousness. The choice remains as to whether or not that Divine authority is recognized and accepted. The choice made will be judged by Almighty God Him Self.
The Claim is based on the Survey. Therefore in regard to the Territory. All who survey can claim. The question is have you in assembly performed a survey, staked your claim based on your survey, and put that claim in trust for the benefit of others who would benefit from your overlay?
The whole construct is INTANGIBLE. Read that Preamble to the Constitution closely ....."to assume among the Powers of the Earth a separate and equal station........ That is Law of this World. And it also agrees with God's Law. Go forth and take dominion. Those who refuse to do so will be governed by those who will.
I believe it is quite simple for those who have the faith - Do all things in my Name sayeth Yehoshuah ben Yehovah. Or said another way sayeth Yehovah in the Flesh.
Treefarmer
04-15-11, 03:12 AM
Now for some history of the area.
Recently I visited the Burra Burra Mine Museum in Ducktown, Tennessee.
I bought a book there, and I'm attaching a few pages from it which deal with mid 19th century history of this area.
The book is It Happened In Tennessee, by Susan SAWYER, The Globe Pequot Press, 2002.
This website (http://www.telliquah.com/History2.htm) gives a pretty good history of some of the mining activities that went on, even though it only talks about one small area.
I was told that the federal government "owned" the land after the Cherokee removal via the trail of tears.
A land sale office supposedly existed in Cleveland Tennessee where mining companies could buy land from the federal government and record their claims.
There were neither land grants nor land patents, only land sales, according to a County Recorder office employee with whom I spoke recently.
Large companies bought up all the land holdings of smaller companies.
The Cities Service Company apparently owned tens of thousands of acres of land in several counties of south-east Tennessee.
Treefarmer
04-15-11, 03:19 AM
The mining companies clear cut all the forests, for fuel and lumber.
In the early 1980s the relatively trashed surface lands were sold off, mostly via Warranty Deeds, but the "hydrocarbon estate" was held back by the companies.
While digging in some Deed archives I came across a hydrocarbon transaction for an area near me.
I'll show that next.
shikamaru
04-15-11, 07:09 PM
I was told that the federal government "owned" the land after the Cherokee removal via the trail of tears.
A land sale office supposedly existed in Cleveland Tennessee where mining companies could buy land from the federal government and record their claims.
There were neither land grants nor land patents, only land sales, according to a
http://www.archives.gov/research/land/index.html
Wow! I didn't know this ...
For land records in the remaining 20 states that were never part of the original public domain, check the State Archives for that particular state. This includes the original 13 colonies, plus Hawaii, Kentucky, Maine, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, and West Virginia.
This looks interesting: http://publicrecords.onlinesearches.com/Tennessee-Land-Records-and-Deeds.htm
You may want to investigate as to what the highest form of title is in Tennessee as well as get copies of the treaties that have bearing on Tennessee.
This will be important too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Territory
Michael Joseph
04-15-11, 07:22 PM
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/
http://www.land-records.com/land-records/north-carolina-land-records.htm
http://members.tripod.com/gardner_2/landentry.html
http://www.archives.gov/
http://www.familyhistory101.com/maps.html
If you are on North Carolina, I can help you because I have done extensive research. The BLM cannot help you for the original 13.
I have the Metes and Bounds for the North Carolina and the Metes and Bounds for Wake County. Boundaries are important as these go to survey.
David Merrill
04-15-11, 09:42 PM
Both of you are Great! I do not think I have ever read any Website that goes into this kind of detail and research. I don't believe it can be found prior to here.
shikamaru
04-15-11, 10:52 PM
Both of you are Great! I do not think I have ever read any Website that goes into this kind of detail and research. I don't believe it can be found prior to here.
There is much more, my friend.
You can raise the roof ....
David Wilbur Johnson has tons of great info on this stuff.
Bring in the financial side such as pertaining to the CAFR of the State, bonds, and the commercial standing of the court, I have a very good feeling that if your case goes to controversy, it may be sealed :D
Bring the boom :)
Plat maps
Surveys
Treaties
Patents or grants
Acts and Statutes in effect at the time of the creation of the muniment
Abstract of Title
Makes for a really nice sandwich :)
Micellaneous case jacket wouldn't hurt in this case either ....
shikamaru
04-16-11, 12:13 PM
From my perspective, there are several divisions to address with regard to land:
1. Financial and banking law (mortgage, liens, foreclosure, insurance, pignus (collateral), etc.)
2. Land law (law, equity, and "case" law, conveyancing, forms of conveyance, etc.)
3. Government (CAFR (comprehensive annual financial report), bonds, municipal services, registration, regulation, taxation, affidavit of residence, statutes, acts, treaties, etc.)
David Merrill
04-16-11, 12:31 PM
Very comprehensive! Thank you!
Treefarmer
05-05-11, 01:41 AM
OK, on with the story.
I recently had the chance to dig deeper into old archives and I found an old document recorded at the County Court house which, from the survey description, appears to include the little piece of land that I've been calling home for over a decade now.
As far as I can tell the document does not have a title, such as "Warranty Deed" or any other Deed, or even Bill of Sale or other such name.
It simply starts out by saying "This indenture made this twenty sixth day of June A.D. One thousand Eight hundred and ninety nine between..."
At the bottom of the last page after the date and time it says "Then was the foregoing Deed of Conveyance noted in Note Book No..."
This land deal includes a few thousand acres, mines, rail roads, buildings, and engines and equipment. It is based on a metes and bounds survey of township, range, and section divisions.
Older books and surveys are referenced in this document, which were destroyed in a fire long ago, according to the County Records employee who helped me locate stuff.
So this is as far back as I can go, as far as extant documents go.
This puts to rest the myth which I keep running across on the internet that if one goes back far enough one will find a land grant or land patent.
At least here in South-East Tennessee this is not true.
It seems that much of the land was traded by logging and mining corporations, after it was taken from the Cherokee tribes by military conquest.
The rumor is that the corporations "bought the land from the government", but I have yet to see the evidence of this.
Interestingly, this document says nothing about property taxes, unlike the later documents I've seen.
I still have not figured out at what point in time property taxes began to be paid in this area. I need to dig a little more I believe.
I have scanned the first and last pages of the 8 page document, and my scanner only captured the top 3/4 of the pages, which are 8 1/2 x 14 inches.
The 6 pages in between the first and last contain the land area descriptions, as well as mention of the other things included in the deal.
Treefarmer
05-05-11, 02:34 AM
Here's the hydrocarbon estate transaction which I came across recently.
Even though folks like me own all the surface lands around here, after the Chemical and Mining Corporations sold off their rights to it, the so-called "hydrocarbon estate", under the surface, is still owned by Corporations.
In other words, the land has been split up into surface and below-surface, with different ownership of the two.
Treefarmer
05-05-11, 02:36 AM
continued...
Treefarmer
05-05-11, 02:40 AM
last page of hydrocarbon deed
Treefarmer
05-05-11, 08:44 PM
There is much more, my friend.
You can raise the roof ....
David Wilbur Johnson has tons of great info on this stuff.
Bring in the financial side such as pertaining to the CAFR of the State, bonds, and the commercial standing of the court, I have a very good feeling that if your case goes to controversy, it may be sealed :D
Bring the boom :)
Plat maps
Surveys
Treaties
Patents or grants
Acts and Statutes in effect at the time of the creation of the muniment
Abstract of Title
Makes for a really nice sandwich :)
Micellaneous case jacket wouldn't hurt in this case either ....
I looked up David Wilbur Johnson and found his talks on property rights. (http://freedom-school.com/private-property-rights.html)
Interesting stuff, but it will take me a while to listen to it all.
I think that the biggest obstacle to finding facts about land records is the un-availability of the old records in many areas.
At least in my particular search I keep running into dead ends because of "records burnt up in court house fire", "maps were not kept by County at the time", "Cherokees didn't have written records", "land sales were recorded at an office which hasn't existed in over a hundred years", etc.
I appreciate the many good points you raised shikamaru.
Treefarmer
05-05-11, 08:51 PM
It sounds to me that you have done quite a bit of extensive research in the State archives or in the Land Records Office. So have I. Who granted the land to the States? You cannot get around the King's Grant. The King sent His Citizens, His subjects to settle these new proprietory settlements - commercial ventures. Think me wrong? Let us explore just one such settlement. The Carolinas.
Sir Walter Raleigh, being the Surveyor - so that the Claim could be made....
287
That document looks interesting Michael Joseph, thank you.
Have you seen or read some of the books described therein, such as The History of Land Titles in Western North Carolina?
Michael Joseph
05-05-11, 11:36 PM
That document looks interesting Michael Joseph, thank you.
Have you seen or read some of the books described therein, such as The History of Land Titles in Western North Carolina?
I was looking for the original land grants for Wake County. I found them filed in a library on mclenburg county. I admit i have not read those sources. I mean looking thru those archives was like a needle in haystack. The curator would not let me in some rooms - sensitive State information - you know.
Treefarmer
05-06-11, 12:50 AM
If you are on North Carolina, I can help you because I have done extensive research. The BLM cannot help you for the original 13.
I have the Metes and Bounds for the North Carolina and the Metes and Bounds for Wake County. Boundaries are important as these go to survey.
Does that survey which you have include the area of North Carolina which later became the eastern part of Tennessee?
Michael Joseph
05-06-11, 01:23 AM
Does that survey which you have include the area of North Carolina which later became the eastern part of Tennessee?
If you need the metes and bounds for Tennessee, I can hook that up.
Answer: no
Treefarmer
05-06-11, 02:15 AM
If you need the metes and bounds for Tennessee, I can hook that up.
Answer: no
Sure, hook me up.
Thank you Michael Joseph.
motla68
05-06-11, 02:50 AM
I was looking for the original land grants for Wake County. I found them filed in a library on mclenburg county. I admit i have not read those sources. I mean looking thru those archives was like a needle in haystack. The curator would not let me in some rooms - sensitive State information - you know.
There is a book in wake county library I think called North Carolina History 1583, it shows some of the land grant information for north carolina, wake county was not formed until later, I think at one time it was part of Johnston County and it stretched all the way up to oxford.
My buddy who has a camp near North Wilkesboro has some good references to all that stuff too, I will ask him and get back with you.
allodial
05-30-11, 01:19 AM
...giveaway that this contract maintains the statutory status of the contract. Title insurance is only recommended in such contracts in lieu of an abstract of title. Whenever you agree to such a contractual stipulation, you operate within the statutory realm.
No surprise. When it comes to real estate, an attorney will likely draft a contract dealing with objects/subjects in his 'reality'--as in what he is comfortable with (why expect otherwise?).
If one knows who one is (i.e. the "true you" vs "legal entity") its not that difficult. If one is seeking allodial/full title--OK... First one might want to get the statutory entity that has a claim ("the seller") to vacate its claim (Warranty Deed or Warranty & Quitclaim Deed) [the Real Estate Sales Agreement outlines the terms/conditions/consideration of doing so right?). After one does that, one can still do a lis pendens and/or quiet title proceeding. If one gets the gist of this paragraph then it would be obvious that at times it might be best to go in two stages that logically ought to follow one after the other.
The "real estate purchase process" seems complicated probably because it was made complicated and the standard contract presumes not only mortgage but "residential sale/purchase" rather than private sale/purchase. Some of the chub is for the protection of a bank providing a mortgage. It might be helpful to become skilled in distinguishing just what is key in the process for protecting a purchaser vs what is for a bank vs what is for protecting a seller. An honest purchaser would likely wish to see to it that a win-win situation results.
So one can simply have a trust in the box (with an address like 1000 House Street, New York, New York 12345" and then after getting the warranty deed or the like proceeding to perfect a higher claim to than the trust using true name or some other strategy or method.
Apart from the presumption of mortgage or FANNIE MAN/FHA/HUD involvument and apart from the statutory notices (such as those about lead or environmental hazards) the reason a real estate contract or purchase process might seem or be held to be complicated might be because of lack of trust or safeguard pertinent to using an escrow company (i.e. being able to pay the seller without the seller taking your money without making out the warranty deed--there are obvious ways to do this without an escrow company).
Key factors to consider in a cash sale (and oddly it can be a challenge to find solid information on a cash sale): purchase price (that they will take U.S. currency, ping bong balls or the like), an agreement to sell, when title passes, whether there will be a down payment, how/when/where title will pass, how/when/where possession will pass, what personalty (i.e. non fixture stuff such as beds or a TV or nice rug) will be sold, maintaining evidence.
The "standard agreement" is typically crafted by attorneys and finds its 'home' in "legal land", "Residentia" or "Publica".
As typical I would direct folks that really want remedy/answers to one or more good books and one of the best law books on the topic that is over and above the pop-bookstore-fastfood-variety is:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DZhAMXRYL._SS500_.jpg
Understanding Modern Real Estate Transactions, Second Edition [Paperback]
Jr. Alex M. Johnson (Author) (Amazon->) http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Modern-Estate-Transactions-Second/dp/1422411427/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1306718778&sr=8-7.
To reiterate: if one is seeking private or allodial title, a two-stage process might be best: (1) using a legal entity in the State/County to 'clear/settle' the "property claim"--cash sale. Then (2) after that taking it out of the box.
As for title insurance: it might be suffice to have a seller produce their current title insurance certificate with the abstract of title they got from their title company and then add that to your evidence pile (perhaps certified copies?). Also, getting a title search, an abstract of title and subsequently a title commitment (a title company saying "Based on our title search or other information we have, we will provide you title insurance.") rather than getting title insurance can be helpful for putting the property back up for 'standard sale'. (I might have a title search done, get copies of the seller's title paperwork and get a title company to write out a title commitment but NOT get title insurance--as in creating evidence in my favor).
Clearly: take away mortgage verbiage, title companies involvement or appraisal companies expecting $$$, its possible to greatly see how to simplify a 'real estate' transaction.
P.S. It is likely that the typical sale of a "parcels" is not sale of dirt and soil but of a 'right of occupation' or something of those lines.
"Cherokees didn't have written records"
Related: Pedis possessio, a book titled "Conquest By Law" (land fraud, deception conspiracy exposed even to the extent of hiding court cases).
http://www.amazon.com/Conquest-Law-Discovery-Dispossessed-Indigenous/dp/0195314891/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306720295&sr=8-1
Treefarmer
05-30-11, 06:20 PM
No surprise. When it comes to real estate, an attorney will likely draft a contract dealing with objects/subjects in his 'reality'--as in what he is comfortable with (why expect otherwise?).
If one knows who one is (i.e. the "true you" vs "legal entity") its not that difficult. If one is seeking allodial/full title--OK... First one might want to get the statutory entity that has a claim ("the seller") to vacate its claim (Warranty Deed or Warranty & Quitclaim Deed) [the Real Estate Sales Agreement outlines the terms/conditions/consideration of doing so right?). After one does that, one can still do a lis pendens and/or quiet title proceeding. If one gets the gist of this paragraph then it would be obvious that at times it might be best to go in two stages that logically ought to follow one after the other.
The "real estate purchase process" seems complicated probably because it was made complicated and the standard contract presumes not only mortgage but "residential sale/purchase" rather than private sale/purchase. Some of the chub is for the protection of a bank providing a mortgage. It might be helpful to become skilled in distinguishing just what is key in the process for protecting a purchaser vs what is for a bank vs what is for protecting a seller. An honest purchaser would likely wish to see to it that a win-win situation results.
So one can simply have a trust in the box (with an address like 1000 House Street, New York, New York 12345" and then after getting the warranty deed or the like proceeding to perfect a higher claim to than the trust using true name or some other strategy or method.
Apart from the presumption of mortgage or FANNIE MAN/FHA/HUD involvument and apart from the statutory notices (such as those about lead or environmental hazards) the reason a real estate contract or purchase process might seem or be held to be complicated might be because of lack of trust or safeguard pertinent to using an escrow company (i.e. being able to pay the seller without the seller taking your money without making out the warranty deed--there are obvious ways to do this without an escrow company).
Key factors to consider in a cash sale (and oddly it can be a challenge to find solid information on a cash sale): purchase price (that they will take U.S. currency, ping bong balls or the like), an agreement to sell, when title passes, whether there will be a down payment, how/when/where title will pass, how/when/where possession will pass, what personalty (i.e. non fixture stuff such as beds or a TV or nice rug) will be sold, maintaining evidence.
The "standard agreement" is typically crafted by attorneys and finds its 'home' in "legal land", "Residentia" or "Publica".
As typical I would direct folks that really want remedy/answers to one or more good books and one of the best law books on the topic that is over and above the pop-bookstore-fastfood-variety is:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DZhAMXRYL._SS500_.jpg
Understanding Modern Real Estate Transactions, Second Edition [Paperback]
Jr. Alex M. Johnson (Author) (Amazon->) http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Modern-Estate-Transactions-Second/dp/1422411427/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1306718778&sr=8-7.
To reiterate: if one is seeking private or allodial title, a two-stage process might be best: (1) using a legal entity in the State/County to 'clear/settle' the "property claim"--cash sale. Then (2) after that taking it out of the box.
As for title insurance: it might be suffice to have a seller produce their current title insurance certificate with the abstract of title they got from their title company and then add that to your evidence pile (perhaps certified copies?). Also, getting a title search, an abstract of title and subsequently a title commitment (a title company saying "Based on our title search or other information we have, we will provide you title insurance.") rather than getting title insurance can be helpful for putting the property back up for 'standard sale'. (I might have a title search done, get copies of the seller's title paperwork and get a title company to write out a title commitment but NOT get title insurance--as in creating evidence in my favor).
Clearly: take away mortgage verbiage, title companies involvement or appraisal companies expecting $$$, its possible to greatly see how to simplify a 'real estate' transaction.
P.S. It is likely that the typical sale of a "parcels" is not sale of dirt and soil but of a 'right of occupation' or something of those lines.
Related: Pedis possessio, a book titled "Conquest By Law" (land fraud, deception conspiracy exposed even to the extent of hiding court cases).
http://www.amazon.com/Conquest-Law-Discovery-Dispossessed-Indigenous/dp/0195314891/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306720295&sr=8-1
Thank you allodial.
Are you the "allodial" from SJC?
Welcome to StSC.
That book "Conquest by Law" looks really interesting; I went ahead and ordered it from Amazon.
I'm hoping to discover a reasonably hassle-free method whereby acres of land can be owned by human beings, subject only to the true landlord, the Lord of Hosts, Creator of the Universe.
That's the reason I'm pursuing this thread.
I'm moving slowly on account of gardening and tourist season right now.
My next post will be on Tennessee's greenbelt classification.
Happy Memorial Day
allodial
05-30-11, 06:42 PM
Thank you allodial.
Are you the "allodial" from SJC?
Welcome to StSC.
:)
That book "Conquest by Law" looks really interesting; I went ahead and ordered it from Amazon.
I'm hoping to discover a reasonably hassle-free method whereby acres of land can be owned by human beings, subject only to the true landlord, the Lord of Hosts, Creator of the Universe.
That's the reason I'm pursuing this thread.
I'm moving slowly on account of gardening and tourist season right now.
My next post will be on Tennessee's greenbelt classification.
Happy Memorial Day
Between the lines, the book actually exposes that the 'conquest of North America' was a sham and exposes that the British, Spanish and French were severely limited--that the coverup of caselaw (Jackson) by the US was perhaps to protect real estate investor interests.
Treefarmer
05-31-11, 04:04 AM
During the mid-nineties the property taxes still seemed affordable here,
being around $200.00 per year.
I felt like it was a fair deal, because the County has a couple of trash dump sites where one can dump landfill trash, including used motor oil and recyclable metals, during business hours 5 days a week. We generate 2 to 3 bags of landfill trash every two months which we dump there.
But then between 1999 and 2002 the tax bill increased every year even though the County tax assessor claimed that tax rates had stayed the same.
I asked him why my tax bill kept going up and he said it was due to increased assessment value and land improvements I had made, like building sheds and a cabin.
I challenged the newly assessed value and he asked me what value I would like for my land to be assessed at, and I named an amount that seemed reasonable to me at the time.
Still, the tax burden soon increased to more than I could handle as a homesteader.
Someone then told me about the "Greenbelt Law":
509508
When I visited the tax assessor's office to find out more about the program the office staff was so helpful that I got the uneasy feeling they were being too helpful.
As in "there's always free cheese in a mouse trap".
The Assessor himself loaned me his cell phone so I could call a licensed forester on the spot and get started on the program right away in order to get the lower tax bill that year.
After talking on the phone with the forester about drawing up a forest management plan, I still could not figure out if it was a trap or not, so I signed an application for it.
Even though I had to pay for the forest management plan, I saved money on the first tax bill under the greenbelt program, and the bills have been about a third of what they would otherwise be in all the years since then.
And that's how I became a treefarmer.
My property taxes are still under $250.00 per year, which is still a fair deal because I dump 2 to 3 bags of landfill trash every other month at the County "Convenience Center" as it is euphemistically called.
Many other Land Deed holders (I hesitate to say land owners since we must pay yearly tribute to keep "our" land) have joined the program in the last few years. I recently read an article in the local paper which talked about the "lost revenue" to the State of Tennessee due to the lower property taxes under the Greenbelt assessment.
Perhaps this is why certain revenue agents have seen themselves forced to collect revenue in other ways (http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14657756/video-shows-officer-offering-truckers-freedom-for-cash) lately, but I'm only speculating on this and I don't know if there is a connection with lost property tax revenue.
Revenue link 2 (http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14673478/questionable-traffic-stops-caught-on-camera)
Revenue link 3 (http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14643085/police-profiting-off-drug-trade)
Revenue link 4 (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/report-tennessee-anti-drug-task-force-gets-to-keep-portion-of-confiscated-drug-money/)
Perhaps it is time to look at a CAFR and see what's really going on with tax revenue around here.
shikamaru
05-31-11, 03:48 PM
As in "there's always free cheese in a mouse trap".
I frequently ask myself "Where is the wheelbarrow?"
My bank wanted to give me a choice of two nifty options to move my account to. Upon presentment, my first question was, "Okay ... where is the wheelbarrow?"
I read further. There is a $10 monthly account fee (whereas today I pay $0 in fees). I found the wheelbarrow! Consequently, I will have to decline both offers.
If interested, I will relay the wheelbarrow story as told to me from George Gordon :).
Perhaps it is time to look at a CAFR and see what's really going on with tax revenue around here.
If you need more information on CAFR, look no further than Walter Burien and Rod Class.
Walter Burien was the person who exposed CAFRs to me.
Rod Class claims the real party of interest in court cases is the IMF.
I'm confident you will find both gentlemen of great interest.
Treefarmer
06-01-11, 06:11 PM
I frequently ask myself "Where is the wheelbarrow?"
My bank wanted to give me a choice of two nifty options to move my account to. Upon presentment, my first question was, "Okay ... where is the wheelbarrow?"
I read further. There is a $10 monthly account fee (whereas today I pay $0 in fees). I found the wheelbarrow! Consequently, I will have to decline both offers.
If interested, I will relay the wheelbarrow story as told to me from George Gordon :).
If you need more information on CAFR, look no further than Walter Burien and Rod Class.
Walter Burien was the person who exposed CAFRs to me.
Rod Class claims the real party of interest in court cases is the IMF.
I'm confident you will find both gentlemen of great interest.
Yes, Walter Burien was one of my first exposures to CAFR too. The other one was CAFRman (http://www.cafrman.com/index.html).
HI everyone,
I know DM from sui juris & am recognizing a few others from there.
I joined today & visited a number of threads, and decided to pop in real quick to say a big thank you for the info supplied in this thread.
I also wanted to let ya'll know I have the pdf version of "Land Surveys and Titles" by Charles Claudius Kagey (one of the recommended books). I don't see a place here to attach it (long day, could be right in front of me LOL). So if you want it please feel free to contact me (I enabled receiving messages here).
Richard Earl
06-03-11, 02:19 AM
HI everyone,
I know DM from sui juris & am recognizing a few others from there.
I joined today & visited a number of threads, and decided to pop in real quick to say a big thank you for the info supplied in this thread.
I also wanted to let ya'll know I have the pdf version of "Land Surveys and Titles" by Charles Claudius Kagey (one of the recommended books). I don't see a place here to attach it (long day, could be right in front of me LOL). So if you want it please feel free to contact me (I enabled receiving messages here).
Welcome to the forums. My previous forum nickname was Sivana. Good to see you here!
Treefarmer
06-03-11, 03:46 AM
HI everyone,
I know DM from sui juris & am recognizing a few others from there.
I joined today & visited a number of threads, and decided to pop in real quick to say a big thank you for the info supplied in this thread.
I also wanted to let ya'll know I have the pdf version of "Land Surveys and Titles" by Charles Claudius Kagey (one of the recommended books). I don't see a place here to attach it (long day, could be right in front of me LOL). So if you want it please feel free to contact me (I enabled receiving messages here).
Hi there April Reigne.
Welcome to StSC.
You should be able to use the Downloads button at the top of the page to post your PDF file.
I would really like to take a look at that book.
Thank you for contributing to the learning experience.
Bright blessings
Thanks for the welcome(s) and the info on where to upload docs.
I attempted to upload the pdf but got this message: Your file of 7.28 MB bytes exceeds the forum's limit of 5.00 MB for this filetype.
So I guess the best way to get it is to just contact me.
However, I went through my pc to see what else may be useful here, and am uploading "States Metes & Bounds" (a compilation of the states boundaries) which I obtained over a year ago. Enjoy!
Update: I have also uploaded "Allodial Title Via Land Patent" aka 'The Final Solution To Property Tax'.
Trust Guy
06-03-11, 12:07 PM
Greetings Reigne , Welcome here .
Try http://www.myfreefilehosting.com/ . Files up to 100 MB . No sign up .No e-mail addy need be given . Just accept terms of use , add tags , upload and grab the URL to share when done . You’re all set .
Be Well , TG
Thanks for the tip TrustGuy, but I uploaded it here just prior to seeing your post :O)
http://www.4shared.com/document/FP-aW-_I/Land_survey_and_land_titles.html
allodial
06-10-11, 02:50 AM
Two key court cases relevant to the book "Conquest By Law"...
Johnson v. M'Intosh - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_v._M'Intosh
and then there is this one which some suggest to have been overall covered up
Worcester v. Georgia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia (The limits of so-called Discovery Doctrine are underscored here.)
shikamaru
06-10-11, 09:46 AM
Two key court cases relevant to the book "Conquest By Law"...
Johnson v. M'Intosh - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_v._M'Intosh
and then there is this one which some suggest to have been overall covered up
Worcester v. Georgia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia (The limits of so-called Discovery Doctrine are underscored here.)
Thank-you!
I'll have to add the former case to my Supreme Court's greatest hits collection :D
Treefarmer
06-11-11, 02:26 AM
Two key court cases relevant to the book "Conquest By Law"...
Johnson v. M'Intosh - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_v._M'Intosh
and then there is this one which some suggest to have been overall covered up
Worcester v. Georgia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia (The limits of so-called Discovery Doctrine are underscored here.)
Thank you allodial.
I've received the book and started to read it.
Very interesting indeed.
Anita Belle said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK2jA0pYd0U&feature=related)
Michael Badnarik said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BU_PqLN-ls&feature=player_embedded)
Andrew Knight said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZutTveKoE0E&feature=related)
Learn to write your own?
Treefarmer
07-01-11, 05:21 PM
Anita Belle said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK2jA0pYd0U&feature=related)
Michael Badnarik said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BU_PqLN-ls&feature=player_embedded)
Andrew Knight said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZutTveKoE0E&feature=related)
Learn to write your own?
Thank you Chex.
Hopefully I'll get around to watching this over the weekend.
Talk about land grabbing (http://www.landrights.org/)!
Treefarmer
07-09-11, 12:32 AM
Talk about land grabbing (http://www.landrights.org/)!
Thanks for the link Chex.
I have a thread over here (http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showthread.php?63-Can-I-R4C-Senate-Bill-787&highlight=Senate+bill) that I have not made much progress with, mainly because Senate Bill 787 has not made it to the Federal Register yet.
If you have more info on the bill's progress please share it over there. I'm very interested in stopping this monster.
I love clean water and I think that S787 would endanger clean water and peoples' access to it more than anything.
padreilluminato
07-10-11, 06:31 AM
The whole construct is INTANGIBLE. Read that Preamble to the Constitution closely ....."to assume among the Powers of the Earth a separate and equal station........ That is Law of this World. And it also agrees with God's Law. Go forth and take dominion. Those who refuse to do so will be governed by those who will.
I have found this to be the ultimate asset protection.
Survey and claim dominion over said property.
That is what I have been working on for the past little while, to proclaim the right to self-determine and assume my position among the powers of the EARTH.
You would have to plot the land mass defined coordinance, and do not add the actual military post number. You can then register your declaration, the coordinance, and in the collateral section the info needed with the amount seeking for trespass damages on the UCC or for Canada the PPSA.
If you look at Canada General Surveyor Branch
http://sgb.nrcan.gc.ca/cad/lanter_e.php
You will notice EXACTLY what Canada lands are, and where the Queen in the right of Canada also assumes her Power over.
If you dig even deeper, you will find that all government offices, like courts, hospitals, and most likely cop stations are situated on Canadian soil.
When one is summoned to court, or the NAME is summoned to court, you are now actually entering Canada, prior to that, they lack the jurisdiction, thus why challenging the jurisdiction of any court is a must. You must also sever the contract associated to the body corporate, by either 2 ways, surrender the BC, or turn it in for collections, according to their acts.
You can even mention that you are NOT on Canadian soil, so anything that has not been claimed is up for grabs.
I know of someone who went further North and actually claimed soem land via a land patent, rougly around 100 acres or so, and he has built a house there and been there for like 20 years.
I still have to get the documents from another who has access to these particular documents.
P.S: Great info on this thread
Peace
PAdre
shikamaru
07-10-11, 02:29 PM
I have found this to be the ultimate asset protection.
Survey and claim dominion over said property.
That is what I have been working on for the past little while, to proclaim the right to self-determine and assume my position among the powers of the EARTH.
You would have to plot the land mass defined coordinance, and do not add the actual military post number. You can then register your declaration, the coordinance, and in the collateral section the info needed with the amount seeking for trespass damages on the UCC or for Canada the PPSA.
If you look at Canada General Surveyor Branch
http://sgb.nrcan.gc.ca/cad/lanter_e.php
You will notice EXACTLY what Canada lands are, and where the Queen in the right of Canada also assumes her Power over.
If you dig even deeper, you will find that all government offices, like courts, hospitals, and most likely cop stations are situated on Canadian soil.
When one is summoned to court, or the NAME is summoned to court, you are now actually entering Canada, prior to that, they lack the jurisdiction, thus why challenging the jurisdiction of any court is a must. You must also sever the contract associated to the body corporate, by either 2 ways, surrender the BC, or turn it in for collections, according to their acts.
You can even mention that you are NOT on Canadian soil, so anything that has not been claimed is up for grabs.
I know of someone who went further North and actually claimed soem land via a land patent, rougly around 100 acres or so, and he has built a house there and been there for like 20 years.
I still have to get the documents from another who has access to these particular documents.
P.S: Great info on this thread
Peace
PAdre
Go forth and claim dominion ...
I likey ....
shikamaru
01-12-13, 01:39 PM
Being the poster is in Tennessee, here is a treaty/compact that you will want to acquire/research:
Southwest Ordinance of 1790 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Territory)
The other major ordinances concerning lands in the public domain are:
The Land Ordinance of 1784
The Land Ordinance of 1785
Northwest Ordinance of 1787
The Ordinances above were created by Congress of the Confederation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_the_Confederation), successor of the Second Continental Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Continental_Congress).
You may also want to know the public lands were administered by the General Land Office (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Land_Office) up to about 1946.
In 1946, the GLO was merged with the US Grazing Service to become the Bureau of Land Management, an agency of the Interior Department.
Also, you may want to acquire any treaties made with Native Americans over the territory as well.
David Merrill
01-12-13, 02:38 PM
I believe that the Treaty at Fort Stanwix (http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/1722/treatyatfortstanwixpete.jpg)plays a major foundation, being the first grant by the Iroquis Federation after the Declaration of Independence. This treaty granted all lands west of an eastern seaboard river. Interestingly it was granted by and large because of a slick attorney.
Click Here. (http://books.google.ca/books?id=lRo9AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA254&dq=judiciary+act+of+1781++judge+peters&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6ob2T_OwHYS1rQGBgK2LCQ&ved=0CGAQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=judiciary%20act%20of%201781%20%20judge%20peters&f=false) See Page 252. Here it is expressed in the Writing on the Wall (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3034/danielcalendar.jpg).
Keith Alan
01-12-13, 04:10 PM
Being the poster is in Tennessee, here is a treaty/compact that you will want to acquire/research:
Southwest Ordinance of 1790 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Territory)
The other major ordinances concerning lands in the public domain are:
The Land Ordinance of 1784
The Land Ordinance of 1785
Northwest Ordinance of 1787
The Ordinances above were created by Congress of the Confederation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_the_Confederation), successor of the Second Continental Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Continental_Congress).
You may also want to know the public lands were administered by the General Land Office (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Land_Office) up to about 1946.
In 1946, the GLO was merged with the US Grazing Service to become the Bureau of Land Management, an agency of the Interior Department.
Also, you may want to acquire any treaties made with Native Americans over the territory as well.
Interesting how prominent April 15th is in history. It was on that day in 1783 the Congress of the Confederation appproved the Treaty of Paris.
shikamaru
01-12-13, 04:44 PM
Interesting how prominent April 15th is in history. It was on that day in 1783 the Congress of the Confederation appproved the Treaty of Paris.
Add that one to the list. The Treaty of Paris has implications on those other ordinances ....
shikamaru
08-11-13, 02:07 PM
You can obtain a list of treaties and agreements in force from the US Department of State.
Treefarmer
08-13-13, 01:54 AM
Very interesting, thank you for all the info shikamaru.
I've come to the conclusion that the system as it currently works, where the highest form of land ownership for people with BCs, DLs, SSNs, etc is in FEE SIMPLE, which is NOT allodial ownership but at the most a feudal landlord/tenant relationship, is still endorsed and tolerated by Yehovah Elohim, and as such I need to go along with it, as I am His subject.
But if and when the Roman beast power that's in charge of the USA defaults on Yehovah Elohim's law requirements completely, for example by establishing a National Sunday Law as described here (http://www.reg6.com/), then I will probably return the WARRANTY DEED and its survey to the US and claim allodial ownership of the land itself as agent of Yehovah Elohim, based on the resulting trust which forms upon the default of the current trustee.
That's all contingent on me being around of course.
David Merrill
08-13-13, 12:31 PM
Very interesting, thank you for all the info shikamaru.
I've come to the conclusion that the system as it currently works, where the highest form of land ownership for people with BCs, DLs, SSNs, etc is in FEE SIMPLE, which is NOT allodial ownership but at the most a feudal landlord/tenant relationship, is still endorsed and tolerated by Yehovah Elohim, and as such I need to go along with it, as I am His subject.
But if and when the Roman beast power that's in charge of the USA defaults on Yehovah Elohim's law requirements completely, for example by establishing a National Sunday Law as described here (http://www.reg6.com/), then I will probably return the WARRANTY DEED and its survey to the US and claim allodial ownership of the land itself as agent of Yehovah Elohim, based on the resulting trust which forms upon the default of the current trustee.
That's all contingent on me being around of course.
One aspect of this model - obvious to me anyway from a reading of the Book of Acts - is that Paul spent the last five years of life forming Roman custody law; the Welfare State. I do a lot of reading between the lines.
It strikes me that Felix in Tyre was dealing anew with the idea that a Roman citizen needed protective custody and protection from the Jews, the Sanhedrin, for that same citizenship. So Felix put Paul in jail for two years and as the rabbis were still determined to kill Paul on sight, remanded Paul to Rome. Some time later, while in protective custody and living on the Roman taxpayer dole Paul wrote the Book of Romans where we find Romans 13.
I have determined that this context is important while examining such issues as you say Treefarmer.
allodial
08-14-13, 01:34 AM
This might be helpful in that historical context.
"Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father."
Galatians 4:1-2.
1269
On a more 'fantastical' note, in the movie Percy Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Jackson) and the Lightning Thief the story pertains to a demi-god who doesn't really know who or what he is and he is under the protection of parents and tutors who fully know who/what he is but don't outright tell him. Interestingly, Percy Jackson has special power over water and is a son of Poseidon (got 'admiralty'?).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xko1Mx5w4tg
Note the emergency weapon: a pen.
Interestingly, Herman Mellville may have seen perceived some kind of relation to the mythological Perseus and whale (leviathan?) hunting:
In Hermann Melville's Moby-Dick, the narrator asserts that Perseus was the first whaleman, when he killed Cetus to save Andromeda.[27] Operatic treatments of the subject include Persée by Lully (1682) and Persée et Andromède by Ibert (1921).
Also...interestingly enough the link with Perseus and Ethiopia and a King Cepheus (father) a Queen Cassiopeia.
On the way back to Seriphos Island, Perseus stopped in the kingdom of Ethiopia. This mythical Ethiopia was ruled by King Cepheus and Queen Cassiopeia. Cassiopeia, having boasted her daughter Andromeda equal in beauty to the Nereids, drew down the vengeance of Poseidon, who sent an inundation on the land and a sea serpent, Cetus, which destroyed man and beast. The oracle of Ammon announced that no relief would be found until the king exposed his daughter Andromeda to the monster, and so she was fastened naked to a rock on the shore. Perseus slew the monster and, setting her free, claimed her in marriage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb2zIR2rvRQ
Somehow...seems related.
shikamaru
08-15-13, 10:59 PM
Wouldn't this make Andromeda and her parents black?
Ethiopia means 'burned face'.
bobbinville
08-18-13, 01:32 AM
In most states, you have General Warranty, Special Warranty and Quitclaim deeds. Massachusetts uses different terminology; but the effect is the same. Here's what www.buyersbrokersonly has to say:
In Massachusetts there are three types of deeds that are used for the purposes of real estate transactions: warranty deeds, quitclaim deeds and release deeds. Each type of deed offers varying levels of protection and guarantees against flaws in the title of the real estate being transferred. The vast majority of property in Massachusetts is transferred via a quitclaim deed. Home buyers typically receive the same type of deed from a seller that the seller received when purchasing the property.
Warranty deeds. In Massachusetts a warranty deed generally offers the greatest amount of protection to someone who is purchasing or receiving the title to a piece of real estate (the grantee). A warranty deed includes four basic assurances to the grantee at the time of transaction. The first warranty is that the current owner and seller of the title (the grantor) does in fact own the real estate in fee simple, which assures the grantor has absolute ownership of the property. Second, a warranty deed guarantees that the property is free from any encumbrances (anything that affects or limits the title of the property such as easements or liens) except for those specifically stated in the deed. Third, the warranty deed guarantees that the grantor of the title has the legal right to sell or transfer the property to grantee. Lastly, through the deed, the grantor promises to defend against any legal claims regarding problems with the title that arose not only during the grantor’s ownership period but also prior to that period time.
Quitclaim deeds. Quitclaim deeds differ from warranty deeds in Massachusetts in that the assurances are more limited. The first assurance a quitclaim deed makes is similar to the second guarantee of the warranty deed, which states that the grantor of the title has not made any encumbrances on the property other than those specifically mentioned in the deed. Unlike a warranty deed, however, the quitclaim only covers encumbrances made by the grantor and does not cover any preexisting encumbrances such as easements or restrictions set forth by the municipality. In addition to the first assurance, the quitclaim deed guarantees that the grantor will defend against any legal claims regarding problems with the title that arose during the grantor’s ownership period but not prior to the grantor’s ownership. Essentially a quitclaim provides the same protections as a warranty deed except it limits how far back in time the grantor is liable for any problems resulting from the title.
Release deeds. The third type of deed used in Massachusetts, the release deed, offers the least amount of protection for real estate transactions. A release deed does not guarantee anything and merely serves to transfer a title or whatever right the grantor holds to a specific property. With a release deed the grantor does not need to assure that the title is valid; thus, it ultimately provides no assurances whatsoever.
Title insurance is designed to protect you and/or your mortgagee against title defects -- some which even a diligent title search may not disclose. It also protects you against loss if your conveyancing attorney is incompetent because he blows his money on wine, women, gambling and cocaine (I knew a few, years ago). The title company will pay to defend your title; and it will compensate you if you lose in court. It is NOT offered in lieu of a title abstract; indeed, when I worked for a title insurer in the 80s, we NEVER insured title without having a full 50-year title abstract, or one built on an existing title policy issued by that company.
Having said all that, I will say no more except to observe that a seller is usually required, by the terms of a purchase and sale agreement, to deliver a special warranty deed; so showing up at closing with a quitclaim deed (as the term is used in most states) or a bargain and sale deed will bring the transaction to a screeching halt, and subject you to a claim for damages in court. the only time that you will see a release or bargain and sale deed is when you are buying from a government, an executor, or at a foreclosure sale. You will almost never see a general warranty deed, since no individual is likely to want to warrant against title defects arising from before he/she owned the property. I will also note that, by not recording a deed, you risk losing your property to a subsequent purchaser who has no notice of your ownership but who records his/her deed. Recording the deed (or registering it, if your jurisdiction provides for land registration) is notice to all that YOU own the property.
David Merrill
08-18-13, 09:17 AM
...the only time that you will see a release or bargain and sale deed is when you are buying from a government, an executor, or at a foreclosure sale.
This is supportive that government owns it all through cestui que vie trust action.
Michael Joseph
08-18-13, 04:43 PM
This is supportive that government owns it all through cestui que vie trust action.
Has anyone ever laid eyes on the document that made known with precise knowing the meaning of the nouns Capitalized within that Preamble. Until that day- I maintain the Sovereign was the Power that setup that Constitution as a BUSINESS PLAN - my model is Rome d.b.a. United States.
Clearly I have never seen that record and as such, I must then say I cannot have any trust in that Preamble or that Constitution as I lack knowledge as to what is the basis of the Contract. But then clearly, if a Congress creates a NAME, then that NAME is an "in rem" vessel - I model it as a Trust wherein certain Accounts are held mediately within said Trust. But the "in rem" vessel or THING is the Property of its Creator. In effect making its end user a Constitutor.
Until that day we shall each have our models. I model "We the People" as the ones who actually pledged their estates united together to provide surety for their business plan. I see the nation-state as a super-massive business corporation. So in my model I might ask you - how do you Occupy within - and I might issue Certificates of Occupation.
I convene my court totally without the United States - as I must - else in my model I would be trespassing the United States if I brought suit against one of its Agencies or Departments within its own court. 12(b)(6). The United States has all the authority in the world to hear a matter in one of its Creation.
I continue to lack understanding as to how one might gain ownership in totality if both the legal and the equitable titles were returned to the United States Treasury. There are many estates - Real and Personal and Usufructuary. So one must comprehend the nature of the estate one is touching upon.
If one makes a bargain to take or seize and that one makes a use of State property to acquire said property [property = rights], then the property cannot alienate but remains in State, yet the bargain alienates certain rights to the end user by prior agreement.
So then, why would I bring a suit against one of the Agencies or the Departments of the United States within the United States? Seems more likely that one would bring a controversy into the World Court. However, that begs the question, does one have an agreement with the United States such that a breach in trust has occured? If not, then the judge will just dismiss for lack of proper claim.
So then the only avenue left is TORT. But specifically what is the Tort claim? And is not that commercial? Or maybe it is not! Maybe it is a libel or a harm in your body or a trespass upon your dominion - the latter begs a boundary - else how is it fair to say your dominion is the universe when clearly you recognize other beings thru your five senses.
And yet those Capital words do plague the reader. How can a conscious man place his trust in a writing that is undefined absent Faith? So one who might argue for a Constitution that he clearly does not comprehend places his full faith into the rendering of that Constitution by the Officers or Judges.
....
My daddy used to create tasks for me to do around the house when I was a child. When I would sometimes rebel he would issue disciplinary measures. As long as I remained in his house, he had the authority but later when I left his house and cleaved to my wife whereby she and I created a new house and the children [analogy of State would be "in rem" Persons] were under our authority.
Now then consider if my Great........Great......Great......Grandaddy pledged to another his Seed in servitude, then in fact the child in my house is subject to me but I would be subject to another. I find this principle herein:
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes through Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his ancestral father, when Melchisedec met him.
Naboth's Garden was his DNA - and my Dad and Mom pass that to me in 46 chromosomes. So I inherit the good and the bad.
I find a law of love that renders coerced slavery to be repugnant; however, I wonder about voluntary slavery. If you an I had a controversy would you think to bring your controversy into my court?
Why I would just dismiss it for frivolity!
Go get married and raise up your own children!
No if a State is bankrupt then it is just a commercial organization! And if the bondholder in due course [which I believe to be an International Banker] demands payment from the Trustee, then let the trustee pay the bill. ATLAS SHRUGGED. Demand is made for lawful money in accord with 12USC411 and 12USC95a(2). Now let us expose the illusion shall we? If the wizard shows his face to take - for what cause is the taking? Isn't that NAME a vessel of the United States? Of course it is! Therefore the NAME is a child of its parent.
Shalom,
MJ
David Merrill
08-19-13, 10:09 AM
Demand is made for lawful money in accord with 12USC411 and 12USC95a(2). Now let us expose the illusion shall we?
Thank you Michael Joseph!
Check out CITIZENSHIP OF PRINCIPAL PARTIES (http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/4929/civilcoversheet.pdf).
What lawyer is going to verify that congressional law, public acts are not true? It will be interesting to see how the answer.
Today I was in court for status on my amended complaint that uses the congressional acts, public laws, court cases as evidence, which goes after the bank for using the word “lender” and “loan” and the $ sign with an amount or a number next to it, on the original contract.
It went well, first the attorney for the bank complained about the fact that I receive one million thru the social security act, and my birth certificate as being crazy.
He actually used the word ludicrous, I didn’t say anything, because it is a congressional act that he is calling crazy, not me.
http://robcourtofrecord.wordpress.com/2013/08/21/judge-orders-attorneys-answer-to-complaint-verified/
I have been here before I did and still considered it a grazing for knowledge any topic then is still primary now. Tfarm agman ezrhy walter chxmate loddi doug david mj and certainly mrcel gavel lorne teamster sobon can advocate and agonize along with any post. mine included were all still grazing. Mort French word for death and Gage is a form of the French verb to wager. transitive verb. gaged, gag·ing, gag·es Archaic. To pledge as security. To offer as a stake in a bet; wager. Origin of gage. Middle English from Old French. The Latin root word mort means “death.” This Latin root is the word origin of a good number of English vocabulary words, including mortgage, mortuary, and immortal. The Latin root word mort is easily recalled through the word mortal, for a “mortal” is someone whom “death” will claim .Anything used to describe someone who lacks sense of life, a person just lacks a sense of humor and life. a dead Archaic ringer for the living trust .
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