Jurisdiction of one state over another

[David Neil]

My wife just got a speeding ticket in Oregon. (Since it is hers and she does not have faith yet in the R4C and other methods taught here I cannot apply those). The facts are, we lived in Oregon some years ago but moved to Florida and obtained a Florida DL. She presented the same when stopped. The officer looked up her name and saw that she used to have an Oregon license. (We are sure it is void since she has a valid FL DL, FL stated they returned the surrendered OR DL. We are waiting for an OR License report to confirm that the license was void.)

He then cited her using the Oregon number. He wrote her Oregon address but put "OH" for the State (The license plate on the car is issued by OH). He then put "License Expires" to 2020 which is the expiration of the FL DL (since we do not have the OR license we cannot swear to, but if the DL was valid it would expire in 2016).

So I am thinking he fabricated this whole thing to make the ticket stick since my opinion is we do not have a contract with the State of Oregon. I wanted to plead not guilty and counter claim perjury and false arrest.

I have access to "At Law" attorneys and here is what he said would happen.
'If the Oregon license she was cited on was not current or valid at the time of the ticket, and she had a valid Florida license , and she was cited on the wrong license, then you should raise that issue with the judge at the time of first appearance and ask for dismissal. The judge may do one of two things. The judge may dismiss the ticket and close the case. Or more likely, the Judge may dismiss the ticket; ask her to produce the valid license with the correct driver information , as well as her current Oregon information and allow the police officer to issue her another ticket with the valid Florida license information. Since the officer will not be at the first appearance , the officer may have to come to your Oregon residence and deliver a new ticket. You then need to appear at or before the new court date and enter a plea of not guilty and request a court trial. If convicted, the record would be recorded in the Oregon DMV records using the valid Florida license and Oregon dmv would notify Florida dmv of the traffic infraction."

I then questioned how can they reissue the citation when they do not have jurisdiction, to which,

"When you drive a vehicle on Oregon roads, including interstate highway, you submit to the jurisdiction of Oregon law. You are required to have a valid Oregon license to drive; Oregon also recognizes the valid licenses of out of state drivers, including Florida, as well as licenses issued by other Countries, to meet the valid driver license requirement. If you are convicted of a traffic offense in Oregon the conviction is noted in the Oregon DMV records and because there are reciprocal agreements among all the states to share their driving records of convictions, Oregon notifies Florida of this record of conviction and Florida can deal with the information and how it will effect the Florida license as they choose, according to their laws. Given the amount of drivers, driving, and conviction record keeping throughout the US states, not everything get reported promptly or recorded if at all".

What about the comment that the officer will not be there at the first appearance? He is the claimant. Doesn't he have to be there? Has anyone ever been in Oregon traffic court? Is this really the procedure?

If we loose our day in court, is this one of those situation were they charge the Oregon License but nothing happens to us. (My wife believes enough that she will not admit to being the NAME)? What would insurance say. I have 3 of my cars insured in OR the other is FL.

Your experiences in similar situations and your comments are anxiously sought.

[Shuftin]

My wife just got a speeding ticket in Oregon. The facts are, we lived in Oregon some years ago but moved to Florida and obtained a Florida DL. She presented the same when stopped. The officer looked up her name and saw that she used to have an Oregon license. (We are sure it is void since she has a valid FL DL, FL stated they returned the surrendered OR DL.)

He then cited her using the Oregon number. He wrote her Oregon address but put "OH" for the State. He then put "License Expires" to 2020 which is the expiration of the FL DL.

So I am thinking he fabricated this whole thing to make the ticket stick since my opinion is we do not have a contract with the State of Oregon.

'If the Oregon license she was cited on was not current or valid at the time of the ticket, and she had a valid Florida license , and she was cited on the wrong license, then you should raise that issue with the judge at the time of first appearance and ask for dismissal. The judge may do one of two things. The judge may dismiss the ticket and close the case. Or more likely, the Judge may dismiss the ticket; ask her to produce the valid license with the correct driver information , as well as her current Oregon information and allow the police officer to issue her another ticket with the valid Florida license information. Since the officer will not be at the first appearance , the officer may have to come to your Oregon residence and deliver a new ticket. You then need to appear at or before the new court date and enter a plea of not guilty and request a court trial. If convicted, the record would be recorded in the Oregon DMV records using the valid Florida license and Oregon dmv would notify Florida dmv of the traffic infraction."

I then questioned how can they reissue the citation when they do not have jurisdiction, to which,

"When you drive a vehicle on Oregon roads, including interstate highway, you submit to the jurisdiction of Oregon law. You are required to have a valid Oregon license to drive; Oregon also recognizes the valid licenses of out of state drivers, including Florida, as well as licenses issued by other Countries, to meet the valid driver license requirement. If you are convicted of a traffic offense in Oregon the conviction is noted in the Oregon DMV records and because there are reciprocal agreements among all the states to share their driving records of convictions, Oregon notifies Florida of this record of conviction and Florida can deal with the information and how it will effect the Florida license as they choose, according to their laws. Given the amount of drivers, driving, and conviction record keeping throughout the US states, not everything get reported promptly or recorded if at all".

What about the comment that the officer will not be there at the first appearance? He is the claimant. Doesn't he have to be there?

If we loose our day in court, is this one of those situation were they charge the Oregon License but nothing happens to us.

Driver's License Compact----Its theme is One Driver, One License, One Record.
The stop was made inside of the State of Oregon jurisdiction. The citation was issued by an Oregon State actor. The Oregon driver's license number was simply used for "In-house" State processing. The State of Florida be good and God-Damned. One Driver, One License, One Record.

Driver's License Compact

Many drivers licensed in other states don't realize that a California DUI arrest can create consequences at both the California Department of Motor Vehicles and in their licensing state. The home state may learn of the arrest through the Interstate Driver's License Compact.

Although the California DMV cannot revoke an out-of-state license, because it is considered the property of another state, it can suspend a driver's privileges within the state as well as notify the licensing state.

NOTE: A driver's license is not ones OWN personal private property. A driver's license is the personal private property of the State.

The Interstate Driver's License Compact, or IDLC, is an interstate compact used by States of the United States to exchange information concerning license suspensions and traffic violations of non-residents and forward them to the state where they are licensed known as the home state. Its theme is One Driver, One License, One Record. The home state would treat the offense as if it had been committed at home, applying home state laws to the out-of-state offense. The action taken would include, but not be limited to, points assessed on a minor offense such as speeding and suspension of license or a major violation such as DUI / DWI.

All states are members except for Michigan, Wisconsin, Georgia, Tennessee (dropped out in 1997), and Massachusetts. Whether the remaining states will act after being notified of an arrest depends on the state.

Some states have an administrative system similar to California Administrative Per Se (APS) hearing, and may acknowledge an APS suspension even without a criminal court conviction. States without an administrative system may require a court conviction before they will take any action against a driver's privileges.

The action that will be taken also depends on the particular state. Some will duplicate the actions of the state where the arrest was made - for example, if California suspends a driver's privileges locally for four (4) months, the licensing state may suspend for the same length of time. Other states may impose an even greater suspension, or even require the payment of fines. Other states may be more lenient.

DLC1 - This is a list of states that belong to the Driver License Compact. An agreement between these states basically says you have only ONE drivers license record.

NRVC2 - This is a list of the Non Resident Violator Compact. A list of states that communicate with one another if you get a ticket out of your home state.

The Interstate Driver's License Compact

DLC1 - NRVC2 Compact Member Joined Dates

DLC1 Effective Date NRVC2 Effective Date

Alabama 1966 Alabama October 1981
Alaska September 1986 Alaska Not a Member
Arizona 1963 Arizona January 1993
Arkansas 1969 Arkansas January 1986
California 1963 California Not a Member
Colorado 1965 Colorado January 1982
Connecticut January 1993 Connecticut January 1981
Delaware 1964 Delaware February 1979
District of Columbia November 1985 District of Columbia August 1980
Florida 1967 Florida October 1981
Georgia Not a Member Georgia February 1980
Hawaii 1971 Hawaii January 1996
Idaho 1963 Idaho October 1992
Illinois 1963 Illinois July 1984
Indiana 1967 Indiana January 1980
Iowa 1965 Iowa November 1980
Kansas 1965 Kansas January 1983
Kentucky August 1996 Kentucky December 1978
Louisiana 1968 Louisiana November 1979
Maine 1963 Maine January 1982
Maryland 1978 Maryland July 1979
Massachusetts Not a Member Massachusetts December 1987
Michigan Not a Member Michigan Not a Member
Minnesota 1990 Minnesota October 1978
Mississippi 1962 Mississippi March 1979
Missouri October 1985 Missouri October 1980
Montana 1963 Montana Not a Member
Nebraska 1963 Nebraska January 1982
Nevada 1961 Nevada February 1990
New Hampshire October 1986 New Hampshire January 1982
New Jersey 1966 New Jersey July 1983
New Mexico 1963 New Mexico January 1985
New York 1965 New York June 1982
North Carolina September 1993 North Carolina September 1980
North Dakota May 1986 North Dakota July 1980
Ohio October 1987 Ohio January 1985
Oklahoma 1967 Oklahoma July 1987
Oregon 1963 Oregon Not a Member
Pennsylvania October 1994 Pennsylvania July 1979
Rhode Island January 1987 Rhode Island April 1986
South Carolina August 1987 South Carolina January 1981
South Dakota November 1987 South Dakota May 1980
Tennessee '65/'97 dropped out Tennessee September 1984
Texas September 1993 Texas January 1982
Utah 1965 Utah July 1985
Vermont October 1987 Vermont October 1985
Virginia 1963 Virginia July 1980
Washington 1963 Washington October 1993
West Virginia July 1972 West Virginia July 1978
Wisconsin Not a Member Wisconsin Not a Member
Wyoming May 1987 Wyoming July 1987

http://www.bayareaduidefense.com/dmv...e_compact.html

FYI or For Your Amusement: The Driver License Compact Administrative Procedures Manual

[David Neil]

Live and learn. They are making it so hard for us to walk in society and not give up our liberty.

I work in Tennessee. I guess I will apply there for a DL.

[walter]

I got stopped by chips once in Oregon while driving to Mexico for the winter.
He asked me why i didn't stop for him right away? I said it was to dangerous of a spot to stop.
He gave a speeding ticket and I tossed it away.
I got a couple of you own us letters in the mail in canada.
And then they sent a letter saying my DL was no longer valid in Oregon.
I laughed hard at that one.

DL's can't be cancelled.
They will and can take them from you but they are always active.
How can I prove it?
Well they took the one I used away but they still place charges on it when I don't use it or hold it.
And then try to make me pay when I don't hold it any more.

So its all about the account (DL number) and not the name.

[allodial]

They can be cancelled. Similarly there is a difference between a closed account and a cancelled account.

[Jethro]

The nature of the STATES that are part of this "Driver's License Compact" are not the same as the several States of the Union. Look at the definition of "State" in "The Driver License Compact" -- thanks to Shuftin for posting the link:

DEFINITIONS—As used in this compact:
(1) “State” means a state, territory or possession of the United States, the District of
Columbia, or the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico.

Any of the several States of the Union do not belong in the same category as "U.S. territories, possessions", or any other place Congress exercises its exclusive legislative jurisdiction. Therefore these "Compact" "STATES" are, in fact, administrative divisions of a "superstate" where Congress rules supreme; which is why, as David Neil has observed, these STATES effectively act together as one superstate. Not too different from a series of Burger King or WalMart franchises -- each may have some autonomy, but authority for each's existence comes not from themselves, but a central authority (far away).

So an effective question may be, "How did I end up being subject to a 'Federal superstate' when I had no intention of being subject to it?" (<-- assuming that is your intent and will)

[Chex]

Not too different from a series of Burger King or WalMart franchises -- each may have some autonomy, but authority for each's existence comes not from themselves, but a central authority (far away).

So an effective question may be, "How did I end up being subject to a 'Federal superstate' when I had no intention of being subject to it?" (<-- assuming that is your intent and will)

First define territory and possession of the United States.

The United States holds three territories: American Samoa and Guam in the Pacific Ocean and the U.S. Virgin Islands in the Caribbean Sea. Although they are governed by the United States, the territories do not have statehood status, and this lesser legal and political status sets them apart from the rest of the United States.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...S.+territories

Territories, Possessions, and Influenced Areas of the United States of America http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...erritories.htm

This is not legal advice and is provided as information only- not meant to be complete.

Moving To or From a United States (U.S.) Territory/Possession

[Jethro]

First define territory and possession of the United States.

Article I, §8 "Necessary and proper" clause
Article IV, §3 "Needful Rules and Regulations" clause

The United States holds three territories: American Samoa and Guam in the Pacific Ocean and the U.S. Virgin Islands in the Caribbean Sea. Although they are governed by the United States, the territories do not have statehood status, and this lesser legal and political status sets them apart from the rest of the United States.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...S.+territories

As a matter of law, you are correct. As a matter of presumption, there are more than three.

Territories, Possessions, and Influenced Areas of the United States of America http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...erritories.htm

This could be better summarized as places subject to the exclusive legislative jurisdiction of the US. Those places are not limited to "official" territories. e.g. Click on this link:https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/us.html
Then click on and expand the "Government ::UNITED STATES" section. You'll see a list of "states" that are mere "Administrations divisions" of the US. Those "states" are also in the same general category as D.C., which should tell you -- in addition to those "state" names not being the proper names of the several States -- you're dealing with "states" that are territorial nature.

[Freed Gerdes]

This would seem to be consistent with the concept that there is no Constitutional authority to force you the living man to have a driver's license (privilege), since you have an unalienable right to travel freely in the nation of your birth, and no state may pass a law criminalizing the pursuit of an unalienable right. The authority to regulate transportation by Congress derives from the interstate commerce clause, and since Congress defines a commercial vehicle as 'a self-propelled carriage engaged in the transport of persons or goods in commerce for hire.' private cars would not seem to be covered. Thus, compliance with the motor vehicle code would appear to be voluntary for private car drivers. But if you are a surety for THE NAME, then you are in contract with the public trust, and soon to be a trustee de son tort, made liable for the 'violation' performed by your LLC legal 'person.' So refusing to be a surety for the public trust would leave the judge with a dilemma: if you won't be surety, then he as trustee would be responsible personally for any debt he allows the LLC to acquire while he is trustee, while you, the living man, cannot be recognized by the court, which is a corporate division of the United States of America Corporation, and can only contract with other corporations.

Now I have a question for the brain trust: the state of NC has passed a law, duly passed by the legislature, which establishes a tax on all vehicles of 3% of value upon transfer of title. The Constitution says all direct taxes must be apportioned by the states, but does not say that a direct tax on property by the state has to be apportioned, only that it has to be uniform. So this tax is legal? Constitutional? NC also 'requires' all motor vehicles (and they define same in NCGS 105-164.4B (17) to be any motorized vehicle, not just those in interstate commerce for hire) to be registered with the state, inspected, and insured, and or course they charge fees for every step... Can anyone shed nay further light on the legal basis for these 'requirements?' The state tax does not seem to be connected to the public trust issue of title, or is it and I am just missing it?

Freed

[Jethro]

This would seem to be consistent with the concept that there is no Constitutional authority

Right. Constitutional restrictions do not apply in the territories, except legislatively (which translates: whenever Congress feels like they want it to apply, or not).

Now I have a question for the brain trust: the state of NC has passed a law, duly passed by the legislature, which establishes a tax on all vehicles of 3% of value upon transfer of title. The Constitution says all direct taxes must be apportioned by the states, but does not say that a direct tax on property by the state has to be apportioned, only that it has to be uniform. So this tax is legal? Constitutional? NC also 'requires' all motor vehicles (and they define same in NCGS 105-164.4B (17) to be any motorized vehicle, not just those in interstate commerce for hire) to be registered with the state, inspected, and insured, and or course they charge fees for every step... Can anyone shed nay further light on the legal basis for these 'requirements?' The state tax does not seem to be connected to the public trust issue of title, or is it and I am just missing it?

Freed

I would encourage you to examine the venue of this "law". What is this "NC" that passed this "law". Is it "The State of North Carolina" as one of the several States of the Perpetual Union? Or is it "STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA" or "NC", meaning some non-several State territorial venue. Somewhere deep in that "code" will be some applicable definitions as it relates to the venue of the law -- usually you will want to look for the definition of "state" and/or "United States". You'll typically find those definitions only embrace places subject to the exclusive legislative jurisdiction of Congress, meaning they are territorial in nature. And if you are not in a territorial venue, then territorial laws wouldn't apply to you, would they?