Redeeming Lawful Money on Daily Paul

[David Merrill]

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releas...1108assets.htm

Damn. I feel a dark cloud above. This is some dark shit man...

(that 1984 article was a great read by the way), is there a way to value lawful money? It has to have some difference, and currency reserves in some non-member banks require it's possession.

I believe that at the Amendments to the Bretton Woods Agreements (Secret Jamaica Rambouillet Accord included) the IMF Trust Fund was established at the current earmark of international gold. Look at the Footnotes.

I have not seen anything about the Fed demanding gold, although if they did, they could not touch the 300 million in gold coins (at face value) held by the Treasury in trust for backing "lawful money" in circulation.

These coins were issued to the public, taken back to fund the War of Federal aggression (Civil War), Gold certificates issued for them were redeemed after the War.

Those same coins were "seized" again in 1933-34 under the "New Deal" of FDR. If any commodity is demanded by the FED for payment, it would be gold (in any form) issued and sold commercially and not the 300 million backing my (our) demand for lawful money, it is a matter of Federal by law those Gold coins cannot be touched.

The FED only has a first lien on "all good and services" "specifically held" to back the Feds credit. That is the essence of redemption, once redeemed, it is no longer backing the Federal Reserve (not just money, but the people as well).

I am quickly being convinced that I have found the gold coins. This is a fascinating journey. Those coins are located in the American Numismatic Association museum on the SE Corner of the Golden Rectangle. Like I tell in my first video that whole Rectangle exploration came to me in a dream.

The dream went like this. I had discovered a "map" composed of the Masonic monuments here in Colorado Springs. I went to the middle of the symbol (I did not get the shape until I went to the monuments with GPS equipment) and was in a grove of trees. Most of the area in the Rectangle is Open Spaces like found in the 1313 METRO thread. In the middle of the trees the ground was soft and sandy - easy digging. I found an old wooden chest buried and opened it to find it filled with gold coins! It was one of the best dreams of my life! I found a movie called Bloodline with a similar scene as my dream.

Ok,

With this I take issue.

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/28/137394348/-1-billion-that-nobody-wants

United States currency notes...
(1) may not be more than $300,000,000; and
(2) may not be held or used for a reserve.

I'm thinking now United States currency notes are indeed lawful money, but, there are other types of lawful money. Coin being one of them. Now, the law doesn't state you can only have 300,000,000 in lawful money, its only 300,000,000 in United States currency notes. Therefore, I'm finding it difficult to connect lawful money as being inelastic. In the article above, "they say" there is 1 billion in coin, which is well above the inelastic 300,000,000 number. Could it be construed that these 1 dollar coins aren't in circulation?

Thanks

Yes. United States currency notes are all forms of lawful money. United States notes were not included in the United States currency notes until Congress decided to do that in order for Title 31 to be reenacted into positive law. Look at the Notes in the Section you cite.

I thought Congress simply changed the name of United States notes to coerce this pegging to the FRN in value. Oddly I got a call from two women who were both attorneys by their knowledge of Code. They instructed me where to look to discover for myself that United States notes were bundled into United States currency notes. I could probably find that citation, I am sure I still have it but have to remember key words and where I would have saved it.

[mikecz]

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releas...1108assets.htm

I believe that at the Amendments to the Bretton Woods Agreements (Secret Jamaica Rambouillet Accord included) the IMF Trust Fund was established at the current earmark of international gold. Look at the Footnotes.




I am quickly being convinced that I have found the gold coins. This is a fascinating journey. Those coins are located in the American Numismatic Association museum on the SE Corner of the Golden Rectangle. Like I tell in my first video that whole Rectangle exploration came to me in a dream.

The dream went like this. I had discovered a "map" composed of the Masonic monuments here in Colorado Springs. I went to the middle of the symbol (I did not get the shape until I went to the monuments with GPS equipment) and was in a grove of trees. Most of the area in the Rectangle is Open Spaces like found in the 1313 METRO thread. In the middle of the trees the ground was soft and sandy - easy digging. I found an old wooden chest buried and opened it to find it filled with gold coins! It was one of the best dreams of my life! I found a movie called Bloodline with a similar scene as my dream.



Yes. United States currency notes are all forms of lawful money. United States notes were not included in the United States currency notes until Congress decided to do that in order for Title 31 to be reenacted into positive law. Look at the Notes in the Section you cite.

I thought Congress simply changed the name of United States notes to coerce this pegging to the FRN in value. Oddly I got a call from two women who were both attorneys by their knowledge of Code. They instructed me where to look to discover for myself that United States notes were bundled into United States currency notes. I could probably find that citation, I am sure I still have it but have to remember key words and where I would have saved it.

Assuming these 1 dollar coins are us currency notes, how is it possible to possess 1 billion in 1 dollar coins at the fed?

(also thank you for the link referencing the $42/troy ounce..obviously earmarked for "international" trade...)

Boom... http://chestofbooks.com/finance/bank...l#.UP33MmdtedM..

Required redemption fund for banks...

http://chestofbooks.com/finance/banking/Banking-Principles-And-Practice-2/Method-Of-Note-Redemption.html#.UP3-qWdtedM

[David Merrill]

I do not equate it that way. There may not be a full $300M in US notes extant. So let's just guess that vault has $150M in value, in gold coins.

[Chex]

In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves

.

This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard. http://constitution.org/mon/greenspan_gold.htm

[mikecz]

I guess what I'm getting at, really, I'm trying to get my credit union to admit in writing we can demand lawful money, that they carry lawful money differently on their books (not as big a point, but this is why we need proof, and why we should open an evidence depository), that lawful money is not taxable, and to convince enough people to use lawful money to crash the Federal Reserve system. That is not too much to ask right?

I did find blatant hypocrisy on the Federal Reserve websites...

http://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/section13.htm

"Any Federal reserve bank may receive from any of its member banks, or other depository institutions, and from the United States, deposits of current funds in lawful money, national-bank notes, Federal reserve notes, or checks, and drafts, payable upon presentation, or other items, and also, for collection, maturing notes and bills;

Then here

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/money_15197.htm

"Federal and state courts since then have repeatedly held that Federal Reserve notes are also "lawful money." Milam v. U.S., 524 F.2d 629 (9th Cir. 1974), is typical of the federal and state court cases holding that Federal Reserve notes are "lawful moneyreserve notes". In the first link, it is also "Federal reserve notes". But, in the second link, in the description, that are called "Federal Reserve notes." Is there a difference in a Federal reserve note and a Federal Reserve note?

Side note, treasury bonds are lawful money, according to investopedia... These are the bonds the fed purchases with their worthless notes.

[David Merrill]

I love using Milam to make that point!

Presuming that you are being genuine about not getting it I suppose I can understand why it is so frustrating trying to figure it out from my posts.

The reason I feel you are disingenuous is that Milam does not say what you say it says! It does not say that FRNs are lawful money.

MILAM thought he could redeem for metal. The only significant thing Milam says to me is that the justices acknowledge his right to redeem.

[mikecz]

No, no. Not disingenuous. I just didn't convey the message. What I was trying to say was the Federal Reserve is clearly making an untrue statement on their website by stating that their notes are lawful money. They are twisting the Milam case. Trust me, I'm completely on board with you.

What I was also was attempting to point out was on another page within a federal reserve website, they make a distinction between Federal Reserve notes and lawful money. I guess what I was trying to say was that if Federal Reserve notes were truly lawful money, why would they separate the two when describing types of deposits made. It's like saying you can deposit apples and oranges, why wouldn't they say you can deposit fruit. Lawful money and federal reserve notes are different, so they can't be combined, they are 2 separate things.

Funny thing is my credit union manager never got back to me. I will be stopping by today for a followup. Also, believe it or not, I have a personal connection to 2 people who actually owned member banks. We aren't talking Bank of America here, just smaller independent banks, but member banks indeed. If you had 3-5 questions to drill them with, what would they be? Keep in mind, 1 has sold his bank since, therefore has no personal ties to it. Thanks again David.

[martin earl]

Ok,

With this I take issue.

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/28/137394348/-1-billion-that-nobody-wants

United States currency notes...
(1) may not be more than $300,000,000; and
(2) may not be held or used for a reserve.

I'm thinking now United States currency notes are indeed lawful money, but, there are other types of lawful money. Coin being one of them. Now, the law doesn't state you can only have 300,000,000 in lawful money, its only 300,000,000 in United States currency notes. Therefore, I'm finding it difficult to connect lawful money as being inelastic. In the article above, "they say" there is 1 billion in coin, which is well above the inelastic 300,000,000 number. Could it be construed that these 1 dollar coins aren't in circulation?

Thanks

The amount is for paper money (called then US Bank Notes) the "coins" in questions were not only 1 dollar coins, but all the gold coins in circulation from the US Mint in the 1800s up till 1933.

The Federal statute from above is specific to "United States currency Notes" which never were Federal Reserve notes. The clad coins today are only lawful money in that they are:

1. Issued by the US Treasury and contain some material that is consideration.

2. Valued at face value.

3. Coined by the power granted to congress in the Constitution and to set the value there of.

US Notes (paper currency) have always been BACKED by actual gold or silver reserves and sometimes redeemable directly for that gold or silver at face value. The US has suspended the direct redeem-ability of US Notes in any form in times of emergency. Such is the case since 1933.

The US Notes are still backed by lawful money (in fact, the exact same Coins are backing them, I believe) but the notes are not being directly redeemed for those coins. This is why the recorded Demand for lawful money per 12-USC 411
is so powerful.

That demand puts the US government in very dangerous position of NOT obeying its own law (12 USC 411 "shall be redeemed on demand). And it puts the one demanding the redemption in the position of the Creditor and the US in the position of the DEBTOR and the one with the obligation to pay.


You have to be careful to watch the words being used, because not all rules on lawful money or currency apply both coins and/or paper.

[martin earl]

No, no. Not disingenuous. I just didn't convey the message. What I was trying to say was the Federal Reserve is clearly making an untrue statement on their website by stating that their notes are lawful money. They are twisting the Milam case. Trust me, I'm completely on board with you.

What I was also was attempting to point out was on another page within a federal reserve website, they make a distinction between Federal Reserve notes and lawful money. I guess what I was trying to say was that if Federal Reserve notes were truly lawful money, why would they separate the two when describing types of deposits made. It's like saying you can deposit apples and oranges, why wouldn't they say you can deposit fruit. Lawful money and federal reserve notes are different, so they can't be combined, they are 2 separate things.

Funny thing is my credit union manager never got back to me. I will be stopping by today for a followup. Also, believe it or not, I have a personal connection to 2 people who actually owned member banks. We aren't talking Bank of America here, just smaller independent banks, but member banks indeed. If you had 3-5 questions to drill them with, what would they be? Keep in mind, 1 has sold his bank since, therefore has no personal ties to it. Thanks again David.

Paper is divided by borders, lines on paper mean things. Look at any map of the US or any legal document, lines separate things on paper. There are US Notes in circulation, they are hidden in plain view and they are NOT Federal Reserve Notes, they do reside very close to Federal Reserve Notes.

"Similar things are not the same."

[mikecz]

The amount is for paper money (called then US Bank Notes) the "coins" in questions were not only 1 dollar coins, but all the gold coins in circulation from the US Mint in the 1800s up till 1933.

The Federal statute from above is specific to "United States currency Notes" which never were Federal Reserve notes. The clad coins today are only lawful money in that they are:

1. Issued by the US Treasury and contain some material that is consideration.

2. Valued at face value.

3. Coined by the power granted to congress in the Constitution and to set the value there of.

US Notes (paper currency) have always been BACKED by actual gold or silver reserves and sometimes redeemable directly for that gold or silver at face value. The US has suspended the direct redeem-ability of US Notes in any form in times of emergency. Such is the case since 1933.

The US Notes are still backed by lawful money (in fact, the exact same Coins are backing them, I believe) but the notes are not being directly redeemed for those coins. This is why the recorded Demand for lawful money per 12-USC 411
is so powerful.

That demand puts the US government in very dangerous position of NOT obeying its own law (12 USC 411 "shall be redeemed on demand). And it puts the one demanding the redemption in the position of the Creditor and the US in the position of the DEBTOR and the one with the obligation to pay.


You have to be careful to watch the words being used, because not all rules on lawful money or currency apply both coins and/or paper.

Sooo, the reason we can't redeem our US notes in gold is because of an emergency? I've read little on this. Where is the emergency per se, or what document specifies that, I would love to dig into it. Sooo, to be clear, US Bank notes are backed by gold (possibly the same gold coins). The US treasury can mint coins, but those coins, even though considered lawful money, aren't backed by gold...

I also have read a little bit on the trading with the enemy act from Woodrow Wilson. Somewhere I read FDR took the act even further, claiming all US Citizens were now considered the enemy. Can't back that one up though... http://www.criminalgovernment.com/docs/enemy.html

[martin earl]

Sooo, the reason we can't redeem our US notes in gold is because of an emergency? I've read little on this. Where is the emergency per se, or what document specifies that, I would love to dig into it. Sooo, to be clear, US Bank notes are backed by gold (possibly the same gold coins). The US treasury can mint coins, but those coins, even though considered lawful money, aren't backed by gold...

I also have read a little bit on the trading with the enemy act from Woodrow Wilson. Somewhere I read FDR took the act even further, claiming all US Citizens were now considered the enemy. Can't back that one up though... http://www.criminalgovernment.com/docs/enemy.html

The reason we cannot redeem the gold directly is because those coins are held in trust for all those demanding lawful money redemption. With over 300 million people in the US, it would be impossible to keep the coins actually circulating. With the FRN price of gold, they would be quickly destroyed for their gold and not traded at face value.

All US minted coins are valuable, they do not need to be backed per se, because they are their own consideration (value).

As for the states of emergency, they are many and varied.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act#State_of_National_Emergency_in_effect_since_November_1979

There are a few, with citations, there.

The US has been under "emergency powers" since Abe Lincoln was President. As for the trading with the enemy act, it is clear that even Abe considered international Banks a more dangerous threat to the rule of law than the Southern states.

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." - Thomas Jefferson.

"I have two great enemies, the southern army in front of me and the financial institutions, in the rear. Of the two, the one in the rear is the greatest enemy..... I see in the future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of the war." - Abraham Lincoln

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation then by deflation, the banks and the corporations will grow up around them, will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -Thomas Jefferson, The Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill, (1809)

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." - President James A. Garfield (1831-1881)

http://newsmiths.blogspot.com/2008/11/us-federal-reserve-banking-banker.html

Simply put, if you are NOT demanding redemption of lawful money per 12 USC 411, you ARE "trading with the enemy".

[shikamaru]

I'm thinking now United States currency notes are indeed lawful money, but, there are other types of lawful money. Coin being one of them.

US Treasuries and agency treasuries are considered lawful money.

In fact, these are the underpinnings of FRNs currently.

Essentially, commercial paper issued by the Department of the Treasury and other US governmental agencies are the lawful money supporting the issuing of FRNs.

[martin earl]

US Treasuries and agency treasuries are considered lawful money.

In fact, these are the underpinnings of FRNs currently.

Essentially, commercial paper issued by the Department of the Treasury and other US governmental agencies are the lawful money supporting the issuing of FRNs.

It is debatable that paper issued (by anyone) backed by nothing but future promise of people endorsing it and continuing to support a system of theft and deception can be considered "lawful".

What is the underpinning of the FRN is the ignorance of the State Peon.

[allodial]

It might be worthwhile comparing..

Pay ten U.S. dollars lawful money
To the order of John Doe ...

to

PAY TO
ORDER OF John Doe

ten .... DOLLARS

As in it seems worth noting the nature of an underlying instrument and that they print the checks for you so that you can make them out for, say, "one hundred DOLLARS" instead of "U.S. dollars" or "lawful money of the United States". Perhaps contrast with a promissory note associated with a mortgage which would likely be "...in the lawful money of the United States of America".

[Anthony Joseph]

It is the difference between "lawful money" and "lawful money of the United States" we should discuss.

The former is issued by any source (conventionally and presently the private Federal Reserve Bank) declared by Congress to be "lawful money". The latter can ONLY BE issued SOLELY by the United States Treasury and it is inelastic, conforming to the biblical law of just weights and measures.

Do you endorse the former, or demand the latter?

That is the issue and it is a matter of trust.