Adam, Satan, and the King of Tyre: The Interpretation of Ezekiel 28:11-19 in Late Ant

[allodial]

The oracle against the King of Tyre, found in Ezekiel 28.12-19, is a difficult text that inspired diverse interpretations in Late Antiquity. For example, according to one rabbinic tradition the text spoke of the first man, Adam, while the Church Fathers found in the same text a description of the fall of Satan. This book studies the rabbinic sources, patristic literature, the Targum, and the ancient translations, and seeks to understand the reasons for the diverse interpretation, the interaction between the exegetical traditions and the communities of interpreters, in particular between Jews and Christians, and the effect the specific form and wording of the text had on the formation and development of each interpretation.

I figure this book (pub 2012) might be of interest to many of you. In case you thought you knew it all...this puts a different perspective on the identity or nature of "helal" (translated "Lucifer" in Latin texts) referred to in the Book of Isaiah. Regarding the below links, I would tread prayerfully if not carefully but they are related to the book. The Lucifer translation is said to be 3rd century (isn't that when Manicheans and heretical Gnostics and others started co-opting the organic Ecclesia?) and beyond. To get to the quick, the first two pages of chapter 7 of the book (ie. the Conclusion) have been inserted below.

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Anytime someone has mentioned the idea of (unregenerate) man being God or asserting fleshly "godship" based on Adamic lineage (such as being "the Master Race" because of being Adamic"--think again!) I would wonder if they had forgotten the story of the Fall. Could there be in existence any secret societies or any people who worship any man in his fallen state? Remember, the serpent in the Garden was offering a means to "be like gods".

MAN, however, is the one who has been all the things Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 speak of; namely, LUCIFER, the resident of EDEN, the BEAUTIFUL ONE, the PRINCE OF GOD, even the SHINING CHERUB among the STONES OF FIRE. He was in Eden, the Garden of God, in Paradise, in Heaven, ruling from the Mountain of God and among the Stones of fire -- radiating the glory of his creator. Even so, it was in a pale light, for he was only a model of finished product. But we see Jesus the true shining one coming forth with the awesome splendor of all those things and more, for the increase of His government there shall be no end! Source: The Lucifer Question by Elwin R. Roach

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Table from September 2006 Testimony Magazine article by David Green (link below)

So could there be any connection between those that deny Jesus Christ and who claim unregenerate (fallen) men to be God and who claim to be "God" based on being of the "Adamic" race as some "master race" descended from Adam? Even those who exalt Nimrod or or any man in his fallen or degenerate state "above all the stars in heaven"?

As to the identify of Lucifer, there are those who suggest the Lucifer to be the King of Tyre (i.e. Hiram--some suggest Hiram Abiff). At the very least, could it be that the particulars or details of Adam's fall are elucidated (related to us) and laid bare to us in the stories of pride and over-exaltation of those like the King of Tyre or like one or more kings of Babylon?

Satan and the Kings Of Tyre and Babylon by Jim McGuiggan (link below)

In any case, the above doesn't seem to evidence the idea of Adam having met with any "Serpent of Wisdom".

P.S. Remember when you read "son of man" in Isaiah 14 and in Ezekiel 28 it might be the same as "ben Adam/adam" or "son of Adam/adam" in Hebrew or Chaldee.

Related:

• Review of the book by Jim West of Quartz Hill School of Theology
• The Lucifer Question?
• Lucifer/Adam?
• The Lucifer Error
• The Covering Cherub and the Fall of Tyre (Ezekiel 28)
• Isaiah 14 (KJV and other translations at blueletterbible.org)
• Ezekiel 28 (KJV and other translations at blueletterbible.org)
• Amazon link for book
• Satan and the Kings Of Tyre and Babylon
• Adam the Anointed Cherub
• Neither the Prince of Tyre Nor the King of Babylon Is Satan

[george]

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I figure this book (pub 2012) might be of interest to many of you. In case you thought you knew it all...this puts a different perspective on the identity or nature of "helal" (translated "Lucifer" in Latin texts) referred to in the Book of Isaiah. Regarding the below links, I would tread prayerfully if not carefully but they are related to the book. The Lucifer translation is said to be 3rd century (isn't that when Manicheans and heretical Gnostics and others started co-opting the organic Ecclesia?) and beyond. To get to the quick, the first two pages of chapter 7 of the book (ie. the Conclusion) have been inserted below.


Anytime someone has mentioned the idea of (unregenerate) man being God or asserting fleshly "godship" based on Adamic lineage (such as being "the Master Race" because of being Adamic"--think again!) I would wonder if they had forgotten the story of the Fall. Could there be in existence any secret societies or any people who worship any man in his fallen state? Remember, the serpent in the Garden was offering a means to "be like gods".

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So could there be any connection between those that deny Jesus Christ and who claim unregenerate (fallen) men to be God and who claim to be "God" based on being of the "Adamic" race as some "master race" descended from Adam? Even those who exalt Nimrod or or any man in his fallen or degenerate state "above all the stars in heaven"?

As to the identify of Lucifer, there are those who suggest the Lucifer to be the King of Tyre (i.e. Hiram--some suggest Hiram Abiff). At the very least, could it be that the particulars or details of Adam's fall are elucidated (related to us) and laid bare to us in the stories of pride and over-exaltation of those like the King of Tyre or like one or more kings of Babylon?



In any case, the above doesn't seem to evidence the idea of Adam having met with any "Serpent of Wisdom".

P.S. Remember when you read "son of man" in Isaiah 14 and in Ezekiel 28 it might be the same as "ben Adam/adam" or "son of Adam/adam" in Hebrew or Chaldee.

Related:

• Review of the book by Jim West of Quartz Hill School of Theology
• The Lucifer Question?
• Lucifer/Adam?
• The Lucifer Error
• The Covering Cherub and the Fall of Tyre (Ezekiel 28)
• Isaiah 14 (KJV and other translations at blueletterbible.org)
• Ezekiel 28 (KJV and other translations at blueletterbible.org)
• Amazon link for book
• Satan and the Kings Of Tyre and Babylon
• Adam the Anointed Cherub

I figure this book (pub 2012) might be of interest to many of you. In case you thought you knew it all...

does the author of this book "know it all"? does allodial? after the realization the I dont know much if any of what I thought I did, I started to question everything. Ive nearly concluded that all history is hearsay. how do you know it is not?

(isn't that when Manicheans and heretical Gnostics and others started co-opting the organic Ecclesia?)

so in a way you are saying/writing that not all gnostics are heretical?

[allodial]

...does the author of this book "know it all"?

The book has about 20 pages of bibliography and reference at the end before the index. AFAIK he makes reference to the ten volume set called The Ante-Nicene Fathers (from 325 AD and before) which can be found online. The book itself volume twenty of a twenty-nine volume set called "Jewish and Christian Perspectives Series".

The book itself contains actual translations and cross references from the Targum, the Septuagint and the Masoretic Text.

so in a way you are saying/writing that not all gnostics are heretical?

Are all kinds of knowing or knowledge heretical?

Re: hearsay
Perspective: If, say, one hundred people, were around you yelling, shooting and fighting each other to the death over some writings fifty years old, whether its hearsay or not...they are still yelling, shooting and fighting each other to the death over it. So why don't you go tell them that you're convinced that their fighting over hearsay?

Re: Adam
I don't necessarily take the perspective of Ezekiel referring to Adam, however there might be strong allusions to the nature of the Fall discussed in Genesis and that the propensity of certain earthly kings/queens/monarchs to claim status of God might be related to what occurred in the Garden of Eden story.

[george]

to my comprehension at this point, it is still all hearsay because I have no first hand knowledge of any history other than my own and strange as it may seem, I am questioning myself and what I consider firsthand knowledge. "question everything" sounds easy until you try it. it is a learning experience but what is learned is in a way the opposite of "knowledge" this s not a path I would recommend to others though. I do feel closer to god this way though.

Are all kinds of knowing or knowledge heretical?

Re: hearsay
Perspective: If, say, one hundred people, were around you yelling, shooting and fighting each other to the death over some writings fifty years old, whether its hearsay or not...they are still yelling, shooting and fighting each other to the death over it. So why don't you go tell them that you're convinced that their fighting over hearsay?

dont you see? that is what I am doing posting in this thread in some way. and I do it in the wacky world everyday too. I see through most of the BS and try to show others how because if we could all see through it then we might have a chance to stop waring with each other. people do tend to get anger when you show them how they are not actually thinking completely before coming to conclusions. you may also but thats not my intention, its kinda like constructive criticism. some people want it, others do not. open or closed minded? "is your mind made up?" "get with the program!"

words are strange. spells even. in the beginning was the word and the word was? and how odd is it that hearsay and heretic sound so similar? they must have something in common..

even though its all hearsay, it is all interesting. some makes more sense than other and may seem more likely or even probable but to conclude either way seems foolish to me now.

what if history and even morso time itself is indeed an illusion? what if "me, myself, I" are also? when I consider these things I feel even closer to god. god might be all there is and "I" might be not unlike satan in some way?

I dunno, just rambling.. maybe xparte can make some sense out of it? ;-)

[allodial]

If one considers the recorded experiences of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jesus, Jeremiah, Elijah whether as fiction or otherwise, is it not remarkable that they were so not going along with everyone else, with what everyone else thought? AFAIK, none of them it seems were out to win popularity contests. The uncanny thing is if it all were hearsay and fiction, the experience they recorded tends to ring fervently with truth--as in if it was mere hearsay or fiction they why does the experience of so many people tend to serve as proofs?

I came across a very judgmental woman, she worshiped statues like many others but she was quick to be angry about my not having a last name (consider I was not employed in any way, I didnt hold a government office, I wasn't under any servitude--but she did; I wasn't worshiping any idols or member of any coven or cult either, no Sith Lord over me with authority to name me Darth Allodial--100% idol free). Now I had not borrowed money from her or entered into any business dealings with her--actually she was trying to get free stuff from me. Eventually, I put the riddle before her to discern whether she thought it to be wise for someone such as myself to take advise from someone who worships statues and prays to them. That if she was free to worship statues and pray to them and if she was free to marry and divorce and marry then divorce changing her "last name" at as she saw fit, then why ought I not be free to not have a last name at all? Its uncanny how the ways of deceptive people like her seems so well described as like a serpent-like and subtil.

[xparte]

[xparte]

I like how the Scripture destroys common sense why put 10 commandments in a book that in the beginning didnt need them if i wrote with a crayon would a Man with a pen be any better at writing the word . I know what i read if jona and the whale were pride in the real sea world we got ones that wont spit ya out. know one word that could fill a void then spit ya out Parse out void depths Given that the Bible and Scripture is referred to as God's word, Though 'Word' and 'Scripture' are very much related, they are necessarily not the same.The 'Word'Christ,{man] who existed in the beginning with God. 'Scripture' in the context of the Bible mostly refers to the written words of God. Scripture is a subset of the Word. The Scripture may represent the Word and illustrates the picture of the Word but it cannot fully explain it, because scriptures are written in human language which has limitations to describe Heavenly things. a son of god who said those words forget i just said it just crayon scripture not proud penmanship put the brass knuckle therapy to scripture till that whale spits up one Word thats written in stone not a man u script the Scripture that we have is not equivalent to the Word,We cannot say that the words we have in the Bible are the only words that God has spoken. At the best of times the word [God] was ignored is Abram going to tell us why he and the word [ God] got lost and why the Name switch Scripture tells us God lost word being Abraham God puts faith in his word why Scripture gets lost.

[xparte]

When is the word of God Scripture thats the rub knowing a rabbi needs Judaism is far from the word of God is it coincidence Christ and all his teachings are about the one word that is God the highest authority for a son of God is accept no other Gods Egyptian Palestinian [Greek Roman] Hebrew Babylonian Iranian Slaves Man has enslaved Man are we waiting in chains for judgement do we need a monster greater than man If scribes are on the payroll how much script is Gods and is the difference what Man owes God where,s the change

[allodial]

A man's imagination can be quite powerful and have much effect on his life and potentially on the lives of others. The Garden of Eden story it seems is one where the Serpent deceptively appealed to both imagination and emotion, quite a powerful combination.

[xparte]

We read the word of God now from scripture. Its has to be true that Gods language his word was Hebrew for Judaism to work or the temple priests are they just speaking scripture.what does it take to be deceived ones self and ones ego let no man deceive you well Christ has deceived his temple and God with claiming to be the son of God In the Greek A son of God well A man's imagination can be quite powerful if being a rabbi did Christ say he was God .The Hebrew people were told a messianic war king was on the way and a man of peace shows up in a war zone at any cost its eye for eye old testament religion the Christ was the General Patton the brass needed rid of to that end the Latin scripture claims Judaism killed Gods only son the son of God well a Roman governor found no falt in this Man Christ so a military trial for the king of the jews a messianic war god standing mute in Roman civil law court Marshall very plain how the venue got switched a man of peace venues into man of war the Hebrew government not the Hebrew people are in charge of the temple Gentiles are men from other nations Abraham was made father of all the Nations so the goy trading roman coins for shekels is arms length from nobody Christ new what nations the money came from and whos tres usury it benefited .The first king of salem to the coming of Christ is the word of God if man has the word of God its has been written on his soul the reference to scripture is the lifting of the soul I mind what i say [said] not who i say [said] it to as i can only speak too self. a long talk to the self unto self one must be true.religion separates a common God of love into a thug so we know its working fine by design if offended any religion i apologise its not something i practise and its not my job.

[xparte]

so in a way you are saying/writing that not all gnostics are heretical?Are all kinds of knowing or knowledge heretical? Christ calling himself the son of God is heresy.or hearsay or believing in or practicing religious heresy.killing the knowledge or its message what is moot a corruption of Christ knowledge hardly worth the logos his marker the [cross] the message gets gnostic-al he said she said all the warnings signs were up in the garden and still are do we know the messenger got killed for his message yes
" do we know who put the warning signs up yes Now who took the warnings signs down and is hiding a message, Not all Knowledge is Gods what,s left is heretical its creation a persona the mask of God . If one knew how to add laws to Gods he be a all knowing God Man has enslaved man God has given man his law keep that the rest is hearsay or His story

[xparte]

The Garden of Eden story it seems is one where the Serpent deceptively appealed to both imagination and emotion, quite a powerful combination.Its always been two innocents curiosity kills a evil cat as well as a good cat remorse is a curiosity in some men.The garden has two trees two paths duality is a franchise the mistake god made was telling adam he had a choice or knowing adams choice No mistakes were made Man has both now The garden still belongs to god if its evil thats who,s choice .When a thought is evil who owns it and acts upon it are by choice.If a creation story helps folks deal with the choices adam and eve its all about us.

[Michael Joseph]

The Garden of Eden story it seems is one where the Serpent deceptively appealed to both imagination and emotion, quite a powerful combination.Its always been two innocents curiosity kills a evil cat as well as a good cat remorse is a curiosity in some men.The garden has two trees two paths duality is a franchise the mistake god made was telling adam he had a choice or knowing adams choice No mistakes were made Man has both now The garden still belongs to god if its evil thats who,s choice .When a thought is evil who owns it and acts upon it are by choice.If a creation story helps folks deal with the choices adam and eve its all about us.

That serpent kind of sounds like the Spinal Cord - and the Man kinda seems like the Mind and the woman Eve sort of seems like the Emotions. But that could not be especially when you consider that a loving God cursed all of humanity for eating some fruit. Of course you understand I write in jest.

[allodial]

Re: Hearsay
That something was or is hearsay did or does not invalidate it. If someone gives you a first-hand report it is not hearsay. Its only when you relate second-hand what you have heard first-hand from someone else does it become hearsay.

Hearsay and Heresy Have Unrelated Linguistic Roots (hear + say != heresy)
From Grammarphobia.com:

Hearsay

There is more relationship between 'creator' and 'creditor' than between heresy and hearsay. The English language is not the best language to attempt word cleverness like that.

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Re: sons of God
I suppose one who fails to comprehend the relationship between the role of creator and father and created and son would consider someone calling themselves a son of God to be a heresy.

If the State can have children (parens patrie) then what an error to believe in the living God's inability to father. The idea of denying the possibility of there being any such things as "Sons of God" is to deny God's power to create or to give life. Those who ask for or seek out an impersonal god just might get what they ask for--but they ought not hate on to those who have done otherwise. Perhaps the heretical Gnostics' detesting the physical realm some relates to the Serpent's perspective on being under the curse of feeding on dust and not liking it.

[xparte]