Incorporation of the USA?

[Frederick Burrell]

The United States is a corporation.

Respublica v. Sweers

Thanks for posting this. fB

[David Merrill]

The United States is a corporation.

Respublica v. Sweers

The United States was questionably deemed to be like a corporation ten years before it became a body politic. In 1789 it became a body politic. Look at the date on the case. Listen to the sentence before your quote:

The first exception was, 'that, at the time of the offence charged, the United States were not a body corporate known in law.' But the Court are of a different opinion.

In that period the prosecution was grasping for something to compare the loosely associated state to, so they did - the Parliament of England. In that time frame the US was no longer Colonies but again they were not a constitutional republic either.

Thanks though, that period is very interesting and I enjoyed you challenging my premise with that case.

[shikamaru]

The United States was questionably deemed to be like a corporation ten years before it became a body politic. In 1789 it became a body politic. Look at the date on the case.

BODY POLITIC, government, corporations. When applied to the government this phrase signifies the state.
2. As to the persons who compose the body politic, they take collectively the name, of people, or nation; and individually they are citizens, when considered in relation to their political rights, and subjects as being submitted to the laws of the state.
3. When it refers to corporations, the term body politic means that the members of such corporations shall be considered as an artificial person.

I think what should be said is that whatever title is affixed to a given corpus (body), it all descends from the Law of Associations.
Now, I know most people don't know this for this is never spoken of or stated until now.

Any State or league is composed of two bodies: a body politic and a body corporate. Government is a political body corporate. The body politic is the society of people joined together in an association. Government IS NOT the State. The State is the people united into a society. A society is one type of association.

I will see what I can dig up to support all that I have stated above.

From most distinct to most broad:

Law of Corporations -> Law of Companies -> Law of Associations

[shikamaru]

From Blackstone's Commentaries:

And the king and these three estates, together, form the great corporation or body politic of the kingdom of which the king is said to be caput, principum et finis.

A body politic is a type of corporation.

[Frederick Burrell]

The first line would be what the defendant counsel was saying.

The first exception was, 'that, at the time of the offence charged, the United States were not
a body corporate known in law.'

The Second line is what the court was saying.

But the Court are of a different opinion. From the moment of their association, the United States necessarily became a body corporate; for, there was no superior from whom that character could otherwise be derived. In England, the king, lords, and commons, are certainly a body corporate; and yet there never was any charter or statute, by which they were expressly so created.

It would seem that the court is disagreeing with the lawyer, who is claiming they were not a body corp and the court is saying they disagree and that indeed from their first association, they were.

Am I reading this wrong? But the constitution was not ratified until 12 years later. So they were not talking about the US government but that of Pennsylvania.

[shikamaru]

The first line would be what the defendant counsel was saying.

The first exception was, 'that, at the time of the offence charged, the United States were not
a body corporate known in law.'

The Second line is what the court was saying.

But the Court are of a different opinion. From the moment of their association, the United States necessarily became a body corporate; for, there was no superior from whom that character could otherwise be derived. In England, the king, lords, and commons, are certainly a body corporate; and yet there never was any charter or statute, by which they were expressly so created.

It would seem that the court is disagreeing with the lawyer, who is claiming they were not a body corp and the court is saying they disagree and that indeed from their first association, they were.

Am I reading this wrong?

You are absolutely correct, sir.

Did you ever wonder where the terms body corporate and body politic originate?

[David Merrill]

I think what should be said is that whatever title is affixed to a given corpus (body), it all descends from the Law of Associations.
Now, I know most people don't know this for this is never spoken of or stated until now.

Any State or league is composed of two bodies: a body politic and a body corporate. Government is a political body corporate. The body politic is the society of people joined together in an association. Government IS NOT the State. The State is the people united into a society. A society is one type of association.

I will see what I can dig up to support all that I have stated above.

From most distinct to most broad:

Law of Corporations -> Law of Companies -> Law of Associations

Very enlightening!

So that disqualifies one without the other. My point was that there should not be a rogue faction calling the government disqualified because it is a de facto corporation like RAP/RuSA used to do - when it/they thought it existed anyway. I hear that President Tim is out of gas and nobody believes all his lies anymore.

So the people composing a nation are the body politic while the government itself, being bonded by the people becomes like a corporation formed under it. That makes sense. That explains why the USA can sue and be sued.

Thanks a lot.

[shikamaru]

So the people composing a nation are the body politic while the government itself, being bonded by the people becomes like a corporation formed under it. That makes sense. That explains why the USA can sue and be sued.

Thanks a lot.

No problem.

A constitution is a charter forming the political corporation. The body politic is the principal. Government is the agent.
I had a really good thread on SJC covering this, but I will see if I can recover some of it.

[shikamaru]

All definitions are from Black's Fourth Ed.

GOVERNMENT. From the Latin gubernaculum. Signifies the instrument, the helm, whereby the ship to which the state was compared, was guided on its course by the "gubernator" or helmsman, and in that view, the government is but an agency of the state, distinguished as it must be in accurate thought from its scheme and machinery of government ...

Not withstanding the Admiralty/Maritime reference, government is distinct from the state.

GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY. A subordinate creature of the sovereign created to carry out a governmental function. Frequently, a political subdivision or corporation. ....

REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT. One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated.

Where have you exercised the powers of sovereignty directly ??

[shikamaru]

Here we go!

Black's Law Dictionary, 6th ed.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATION. A legal institution formed by charter from sovereign (i.e. state) power erecting a populous community of prescribed areas into a body politic and corporate with corporate name and continuous succession and for the purpose and with the authority of subordinate self-government and improvement and local administration of affairs of state. A body corporate consisting of the inhabitants of a designated area created by the legislature with or without the consent of such inhabitants for governmental purposes, possessing local legislative and administrative power, also power to exercise within such areas so much of the administrative power of the state as may be delegated to it and possessing limited capacity to own and hold property and to act in purveyance of public conveniences.

Municipal corporation is a body politic and corporate, created to administer the internal concerns of the district embraced with its corporate limits, in matters peculiar to such place and not common to the state at large. .....

MUNICIPAL. In narrower, more common, sense, it means pertaining to a local governmental unit , commonly, a city or town or other governmental unit. In its broader sense, it means pertaining to the public or governmental affairs of a state or nation or of a people. ...

The latter definition with regard to the term municipal is an international law definition.

The Constitution of the United States is municipal resulting in a body politic and corporate. The body politic is private. The body corporate is public. The government itself is public. Public is a term synonymous with government.

If I say "public office", you know exactly what I am speaking of.

Please note that many of the terms we are using with respect to this subject matter i.e. constitution, citizen, municipal, etc. are Roman Civil Law terms and have their origins in Roman Law.

[motla68]

Here we go!

Black's Law Dictionary, 6th ed.





The latter definition with regard to the term municipal is an international law definition.

The Constitution of the United States is municipal resulting in a body politic and corporate. The body politic is private. The body corporate is public. The government itself is public. Public is a term synonymous with government.

If I say "public office", you know exactly what I am speaking of.

Please note that many of the terms we are using with respect to this subject matter i.e. constitution, citizen, municipal, etc. are Roman Civil Law terms and have their origins in Roman Law.

Cool man, good work.

If you go to the city council building and the county commissioners building, go do the admin office and ask if they can give you a copy of their charter, just tell them your doing research for an educational project. In there you will more then likely find that the State General Assembly chartered both of them. Sometimes it is online, sometimes not, Go check it out and tell us what you find?

Keep connecting them dots together, your doing it right.

[shikamaru]

Cool man, good work.

If you go to the city council building and the county commissioners building, go do the admin office and ask if they can give you a copy of their charter, just tell them your doing research for an educational project. In there you will more then likely find that the State General Assembly chartered both of them. Sometimes it is online, sometimes not, Go check it out and tell us what you find?

Keep connecting them dots together, your doing it right.

There used to be a guy online who titled himself "the Informer" under atgpress.com. He did some crazy research, but I learned a lot from his writings.
It is sad that his research and website are no longer online. You can catch some of his stuff on the Wayback machine.

[motla68]

There used to be a guy online who titled himself "the Informer" under atgpress.com. He did some crazy research, but I learned a lot from his writings.
It is sad that his research and website are no longer online. You can catch some of his stuff on the Wayback machine.

Yes, I am aware of the unsername. I have been in the free man movement i guess you could call it since late 2002. I have seen some sites come and go, it is easy to copy what someone else does and maybe get a partial understanding, but it is entirely different thing when you do it yourself and create your own materials from it, you will never lose that, it then becomes a part of you.

[David Merrill]

Where have you exercised the powers of sovereignty directly ??

That sounds general and rhetorical but I like to jump on it whenever I can.

The State is the typical trustee of the assets in registration. However if they breach an agreement that trust is up for grabs - an appointee can jump in as a resulting trust. Look how they had warned me two or three times already that my using the Great Seal of Authority without being affiliated with State Business would result in a Class 5 felony charge. This last time they sent my lien back rejected though, they included a breached trust - by one Donald DREW on the Colorado Republic. It is a chore to explain without your recent posts to stand on so I defer the reader to examine body politic and body corporate herein, thank you again, to grasp why the SoS was reluctant to admit the Colorado Republic still exists as a territorial domain. Examine the Notice on Page 2 - which is a generic notice on Articles of Incorporation but mailing those Articles to DREW on the Colorado Republic would of course been an admission that it is still extant and the corporate SoS wanted to stay exclusively so. You can read for yourself my acceptance of the trustee position - and therefore I was affiliated with state business - statesman. That was when the SoS accepted and published my lien.

There have been several occasions where I have taken the role of statesman, using the Great Seal, once I was even "arrested" in open court for it and never heard a word about it afterward.

It may not be what you were meaning exactly, but your explanations and definitions have helped me to be able to explain it more easily.


Regards,

David Merrill.


P.S. I have a lot of Informer stuff on disk. When we get up to speed around here - meaning when Admin finds time for constructing an Upload/Download area, I will upload it for everybody. Between us we may be able to recompile some of that work.

[shikamaru]

That sounds general and rhetorical but I like to jump on it whenever I can.

The State is the typical trustee of the assets in registration. However if they breach an agreement that trust is up for grabs - an appointee can jump in as a resulting trust. Look how they had warned me two or three times already that my using the Great Seal of Authority without being affiliated with State Business would result in a Class 5 felony charge. This last time they sent my lien back rejected though, they included a breached trust - by one Donald DREW on the Colorado Republic. It is a chore to explain without your recent posts to stand on so I defer the reader to examine body politic and body corporate herein, thank you again, to grasp why the SoS was reluctant to admit the Colorado Republic still exists as a territorial domain. Examine the Notice on Page 2 - which is a generic notice on Articles of Incorporation but mailing those Articles to DREW on the Colorado Republic would of course been an admission that it is still extant and the corporate SoS wanted to stay exclusively so. You can read for yourself my acceptance of the trustee position - and therefore I was affiliated with state business - statesman. That was when the SoS accepted and published my lien.

There have been several occasions where I have taken the role of statesman, using the Great Seal, once I was even "arrested" in open court for it and never heard a word about it afterward.

It may not be what you were meaning exactly, but your explanations and definitions have helped me to be able to explain it more easily.


Regards,

David Merrill.

I don't think the State wants you to assume your role as one of the People of the nation.
William Thornton has some great material on the above.

The best way to do this studying of corporations, in my opinion, and their myriad of forms is to study Roman Law (Roman Civil Law) and English Common Law.

Our law system is a mix of Roman Civil Law and English Common Law. The Common Law is the private side. Roman Civil Law the public side. Common Law is of "the People" (although most English subjects hated Common Law). Roman Civil Law is of government.

The sovereignty of the King devolved on to "the People".

P.S. I have a lot of Informer stuff on disk. When we get up to speed around here - meaning when Admin finds time for constructing an Upload/Download area, I will upload it for everybody. Between us we may be able to recompile some of that work.

You rock, man. I will make sure to add it to my repository when available.