Adventures in land ownership

[shikamaru]

It sounds to me that you have done quite a bit of extensive research in the State archives or in the Land Records Office. So have I. Who granted the land to the States? You cannot get around the King's Grant. The King sent His Citizens, His subjects to settle these new proprietory settlements - commercial ventures. Think me wrong? Let us explore just one such settlement. The Carolinas.

Sir Walter Raleigh, being the Surveyor - so that the Claim could be made....

[ATTACH]287[/ATTACH]

I don't doubt your words nor do I contest your questions and points . The information I typed that you highlighted above is courtesy of David Wilbur Johnson.

Only the 13 colonies would be "King granted land". States created after the 13 colonies were created as territories initially.

[Treefarmer]

The Quit Claim Deed is the next thing I want to look at in this thread.
Attached is the Quit Claim Deed for the mineral rights to my land, which were conveyed to me separately.
The mineral rights (mining rights as I understand it) to the entire area of Tennessee that I'm in had been held by a holding company which held the assets of a bankrupt mining company.
They were released some years later to a land speculator via Quit Claim Deed (he owned about a thousand acres here) after it was determined that there was nothing to mine here.
My land has never been mined, but there's an old mine about 8 miles away.
More on that history later.

Years ago I met the old land speculator in person and got to ask him some questions about the land.
He passed on the Quit Claimed mineral rights pertaining to my parcel to me shortly before he died.

The so-called "hydrocarbon estate", i.e. any oil, coal or natural gas that may exist beneath the surface of the land I'm on, was never released by the mining companies which used to own all the land here.
It is still being bought and sold separately from the surface land by oil companies, if it indeed exists.
I'll show an example of that later.

I'm trying out a larger file size for the attachments in the hopes it will be legible.

[Michael Joseph]

Land patents issued by the government of the United States are in the form of a quitclaim deed.

The land was held in trust for the States by the United States. Various states ceded their land claims to the United States upon joining the Union.

It sounds to me that you have done quite a bit of extensive research in the State archives or in the Land Records Office. So have I. Who granted the land to the States? You cannot get around the King's Grant. The King sent His Citizens, His subjects to settle these new proprietory settlements - commercial ventures. Think me wrong? Let us explore just one such settlement. The Carolinas.

Sir Walter Raleigh, being the Surveyor - so that the Claim could be made....

north carolina land patent.pdf

[shikamaru]

Land patents issued by the government of the United States are in the form of a quitclaim deed.

The land was held in trust for the States by the United States. Various states ceded their land claims to the United States upon joining the Union.

[Michael Joseph]

If selling the interesting in land, assuming the seller has the whole interest, all papers concerning the land would be turned over to the buyer including plat map, first title deed (land patent), title abstract (all deeds leading back to chaining to the first title deed), and conveyance deed.

If the person (seller) really was on his toes he would include all treaties, acts, and statutes that have bearing on his first title deed (land patent) as well.

This is if the seller was on the ball ...

Now, that is true. A land patent [some states grant] can not be encroached upon. Notice the Grant comes forth from within a parent trust. I mean a King did issue forth that Grant, yes? King, as Trustee for his estate in Trust.

Try as you might you will not escape 1st Sam 8. If you are talking Grant, Trust, estate, then you are talking Property. If you are talking Property, you are not talking about matter or thought, you are talking Right of Use.

[shikamaru]

I suppose it depends of perspective. If I can sell you an interest by way of assignment, by and thru the Trustee, then we don't need a DEED. This is much,much more superior to any of these DEEDS discussed herein.

If you are one who wants a DEED, then I am going to issue one of three - Limited Warranty Deed, Bargain and Sale Deed or Quit-Claim. If you want a Title Search, then do it yourself or pay an attorney. If you are one who uses banks, then you will be forced to get a title search.

But I can guarantee, that in the Purchase and Sale Agreement, I am NOT paying for it.

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Transfer into Trust - Warranty Deed to Trustee. When you want to sell - Assign beneficial interest to another party. Substitute Trustees....have a nice day.

The Trust is Superior.

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There was one who asked concerning the word "Forever". That's a mighty long time......See the trust.....READ carefully the "TO HAVE AND TO HOLD CLAUSE......I hope after you do you can see the trust.

Reader - the Legal Title is NEVER impaired or even Transferred. It is the equitable Title that is transferred in Trust. Therefore the Property NEVER leaves the Trust - Forever.

Is property the land or the house? If you answer yes, then you do not understand the trust.

If selling the interest in land, assuming the seller has the whole interest, all papers concerning the land would be turned over to the buyer including plat map, first title deed (land patent), title abstract (all deeds chaining back to the first title deed), and conveyance deed.

If the person (seller) really was on his toes he would include all treaties, acts, and statutes that have bearing on his first title deed (land patent) as well.

This is if the seller was on the ball ...

[Michael Joseph]

And this is why you request the title abstract along with the quitclaim deed.

I suppose it depends of perspective. If I can sell you an interest by way of assignment, by and thru the Trustee, then we don't need a DEED. This is much,much more superior to any of these DEEDS discussed herein.

If you are one who wants a DEED, then I am going to issue one of three - Limited Warranty Deed, Bargain and Sale Deed or Quit-Claim. If you want a Title Search, then do it yourself or pay an attorney. If you are one who uses banks, then you will be forced to get a title search.

But I can guarantee, that in the Purchase and Sale Agreement, I am NOT paying for it.

----------------------------

Transfer into Trust - Warranty Deed to Trustee. When you want to sell - Assign beneficial interest to another party. Substitute Trustees....have a nice day.

The Trust is Superior.

-------------------------------------

There was one who asked concerning the word "Forever". That's a mighty long time......See the trust.....READ carefully the "TO HAVE AND TO HOLD CLAUSE......I hope after you do you can see the trust.

Reader - the Legal Title is NEVER impaired or even Transferred. It is the equitable Title that is transferred in Trust. Therefore the Property NEVER leaves the Trust - Forever.

Is property the land or the house? If you answer yes, then you do not understand the trust.

[shikamaru]

yes that one is very good. I got a bridge ON the territory California to sell to you - will you accept a "quit-claim" deed? I would not take a "quit-claim" deed unless I really trusted the one who caused the equity transfer was lawfully with a simple FEE.

And this is why you request the title abstract along with the quitclaim deed.

[Treefarmer]

If you have a professional version of Adobe Acrobat, you could print to Adobe.

Get a look at the TO HAVE AND TO HOLD CLAUSE - see that word "Forever"...

Unfortunately I don't have Adobe Acrobat.
I'm trying out some MS office picture manager possibilities right now.

I see that word "forever", yes.
What about it specifically were you referring to?

[Michael Joseph]

I'm noticing that the quality of the attachments is really bad.
Anybody have any ideas how I can get it to look better?

If you have a professional version of Adobe Acrobat, you could print to Adobe.

Get a look at the TO HAVE AND TO HOLD CLAUSE - see that word "Forever"...

[Treefarmer]

I'm noticing that the quality of the attachments is really bad.
Anybody have any ideas how I can get it to look better?

[Treefarmer]

[Treefarmer]

Continuing:
After I got the Real Estate Purchase Agreement document from the lawyer, I met with the seller of the property, or land, at his kitchen table and I gave him a cashiers' check for $30,000 and $5,000 in cash.
He signed the paperwork and we shook hands and that sealed the deal.

Then I took that signed Purchase Agreement to the lawyer to "draw up the paper work".
He also recommended that I "purchase" title insurance, which he also sold, and I agreed to that too.

Then the lawyer asked me about the purchase price and I, feeling put on the spot and confused about it, said $25,000. Since I didn't know what I was doing, that seemed like a good compromise at the time.
Something didn't sit right with me about that though, because the purchase agreement didn't name the price, and I felt like that was none of the lawyer's business.
He tricked me into disclosing a sum though by having a blank space on the deed for the purchase price, so I thought it had to be provided.
In hindsight, I did not have to disclose that private deal at all!
I have since noticed that most recorded deeds say nothing about how much the land was sold for.
Attorned again!

A few days later I went by the lawyer's office and picked up the completed WARRANTY DEED and paid him for it.
The document was stapled to a blue piece of heavy paper, the exact same color which Motla68 showed on his picture of his private agreement, which he called Robin egg blue. Not sure I've ever seen a robin egg, and I noticed that Motla68 may be banned now, but it makes me wonder about the symbolism of it. Does anyone know about this?
The lawyer said I needed to record the Warranty Deed at the County Court House.
When I went there, I was surprised that I had to pay a hefty "transfer tax" which was a percentage of the purchase price.
I knew I was getting screwed, only I didn't know what to do about it.

I felt like I didn't have a choice and paid up.

I've attached the sanitized Warranty Deed.

[Treefarmer]

Precisely, shikamaru. Tree Farmer was correct in his evaluation of this deal: he got attorned (i.e. screwed)!

In fact the whole Section 9 (b) i, ii, and iii is a dead giveaway that this contract maintains the statutory status of the contract. Title insurance is only recommended in such contracts in lieu of an abstract of title. Whenever you agree to such a contractual stipulation, you operate within the statutory realm.

Also, the fact that a Warranty Deed was issued is also a dead giveaway as this is only evidence of "title under color of law," but not yet title in fact. If you can trace the land back to a land patent, you're in much better shape with regard to being able to claim an "allodial" nature of ownership. Better yet would have been to obtain a Grant Deed from the seller, forego the involvement of the attorney, and not record that instrument with any statutory authority (i.e. the county or the state) but only "notice" them (i.e. the county assessor) of the change in ownership as recordation is now seen as "registration" of property with the statutory authority. When you record a deed these days you've just entered into a contract with the county and the state, which operates as a "kind of" parens patriae in commerce to maintain the commercial viability of the property within their "legal" system of governance. You are, however, under no obligation to avail yourself of the state's services in matters such as this, is my understanding of the matter.

There are ways to correct this. When I have more free time (months away at this point, as I am buried in work that takes priority over any project that would entail a detailed explanation of law in matters such as this) I will return with my findings based on my practical experience and open a thread to explain what I have learned and accomplished and how others can go about following suit. I have recently taken the property I own out of the statutory realm and provided notice of such to the appropriate county officials.

This is not that difficult to understand or to accomplish once you have access to a reading of the law that you can rely upon as an ultimate authority. I've spent the better part of the last two years studying this and have all the legal citations (or at least a great many of them) to back it up.

How about giving us some leads in the meantime?
I like to read up on things myself.
Thank you.

[Michael Joseph]

I most partial to quitclaim deeds myself .

yes that one is very good. I got a bridge ON the territory California to sell to you - will you accept a "quit-claim" deed? I would not take a "quit-claim" deed unless I really trusted the one who caused the equity transfer was lawfully with a simple FEE.