Can God die

[Michael Joseph]

Freedom goes to choice. So yes, I see choice as important. My understanding is Yehovah on the stand is Nature or the natural world. Men have twisted doctrine to their own ends - myself included - yet some men claim over other men - which oppresses other men.

They claim this Right - under divine Trust - God wills it. I have no trust in Re-ligion. I do however, stay upon two laws which I can see in Nature as well...

Love God and Love Mankind. Therefore it is Love that conquers and the Lusts of Man are diminished and the Spiritual side - Love rises and man sees in other man himself - without need of oppression to gain a purchase on some Claim or Right.

You sound like a man who has been fed an ample amount of bullCRAP and you are tired of it. I too tire of the good pastors. Self serving they are - in my opinion - not all - yet my experience has shown most.

Truth discovers Us. I like that. Is God Truth? I say, yes.

Then God comes to Man and not man to God? Therefore man lacks the capacity to Judge other men, yes? Rather from a universal divine trust man lacks capacity to Judge. Yet from within certain constructs - other Trusts - man gains the capacity to judge based on man's creations and other mans choices.

Yes, I think that fits nicely in the Scriptures. Fact is we cannot get past Origins absent Belief. And I look at Nature and for that matter my Own Body and I see the Spiral, I see Pi, Phi, therefore i see design. And that begs the question, who was the Architect?

Even Evolution is Belief. Evolution does not address Origins. Therefore it has to be taken on Faith. Just ask Hawking - perhaps he can be a 'vane' to show the way. But all of his Mathematics cannot allow him even a glimpse prior to the Singularity of Origins.

The Contempt of Generation and yet it remains - only in Faith - a Belief. And therefore, many conclusions and theories. And, yet a thinking man knows force begs for an a priori action.

I think your so called "Control Freak God" is found in the mouth of the Oppresive Pastor and his passive flock [See Mind Control and A Century of the Self.] You know the one, with the big house and the fancy car. Oh by the way, don't forget to drop some money in the plate....If you don't you know there is that fire and damnation thing....You know Pastor is a Doctor of Divinity. We Trust Pastor - look at his Robe - wow, how could he be wrong?

Given there is One Creator - Self Existing One, then your Creator is my Creator. Should I run and hide or should you? Or perhaps, the good pastors should run and hide. Joking of course, I remain without those vain presentments - ten horses could not drag me back to those buildings on Sunday. I imagine you feel the same way.


Ecc 1:12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.

Ecc 1:16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.

Ecc 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.

Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

----

Of course Thoughts are Things and the Reality we have is the Reality we Choose. God Saves = Yehoshua. now [directed to me] get on with life.

For me, authority is in the Creator. It seems logical. I know the Creator by the name Yehovah. Yet, I cannot prove it. It is a matter of personal Choice and experience, wouldn't you say?

[Michael Joseph]

A poem by Emily Dickinson - Some keep the Sabbath going to Church

Some keep the Sabbath going to Church --
I keep it, staying at Home --
With a Bobolink for a Chorister --
And an Orchard, for a Dome --

Some keep the Sabbath in Surplice --
I just wear my Wings --
And instead of tolling the Bell, for Church,
Our little Sexton -- sings.

God preaches, a noted Clergyman --
And the sermon is never long,
So instead of getting to Heaven, at last --
I'm going, all along.

[Treefarmer]

Who is with authority to show us the truth in scripture?

Who's your daddy?
Whose counsel would you like to receive?

Good question Metheist; I like it.

[Michael Joseph]

I take counsel from the Ever Living, my closest of kin and therefore my Kinsman Redeemer. Yet, I pick up the Trust in the office of the Fisherman; not looking to oppress - only if someone asks.

Thank you Treefarmer.

[martin earl]

The Spirit confirms truth, the Comforter.

As for if God can die. Death should be defined as the separation of the body and the spirit. So God cannot Die, but He clearly has the power to separate His spirit from His physical body, which is what I believe happened while the Body was on the cross, then in the Tomb, but the Spirit continued to 'live' and preach to those who passed before.

The First Resurrection was when the body and the Spirit were united again. This resurrected body is what Mary saw, but could not touch until the assent to the Father. After that, the Apostles were allowed to touch His body and testify to the Resurrection.

Or not?

[Michael Joseph]

martin earl thank you for participating on this thread. Your post is very thought provoking as is the intention of this thread to begin with.

I have taken a couple of days to think about this post before attempting to respond. I think what has been giving me such problems is your use of the word “body”. For the purposes of this post see the following terms and their meanings:

Flesh = vessel that houses the True Self
True Self = Soul
Intellect of True Self = Spirit

Therefore interpreting your issue the separation of the Soul from the Spirit would in fact leave one not knowing anything and is really like erasing a hard drive of sorts because there would be no memory. Yet we are informed at Ezekiel 44:24 that we will be able to know each other in the coming Age therefore if that is the case we will be with memory of this Age. And possibly with memory of the first Age as well.

Eze 44:25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.

Dead how? These are Spiritually dead in the sense that they have not been “born by the Spirit above”.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

G509
an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

Therefore to the Angels – at Gen 6 no salvation is possible. Because they:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

And the 2nd requirement is to be “born of the Spirit above”. A renewing of the mind.

However, we are told that Yehoshua is first fruits from the Dead. Not that he encountered a Spiritual Death. We know he did not encounter a Spiritual Death as he went back to:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

For Man to Preach one would need to be with Intellect [Spirit] and an intellect by itself cannot operate absent a Soul [operator]. But God is Spirit.

Therefore the Death of God is the death of the incarnate Flesh of God – The Flesh was sacrificed. As a Lamb was sacrificed at Passover.

When Yehoshua appeared to the apostles he ate. Isn’t that interesting. Yet why should it be? Manna is angels food and yet it also sustains the flesh. Whether Yehoshua manifested again in the flesh to his apostles or if he manifested as the Angel of Yehovah – I have not yet discerned; yet they saw him and communed with him prior to their commission.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

I contend the Resurrection has to do with the Spirit - being Born “from the Spirit above” – in Yehoshua – God is the Spirit Above. Therefore it is said of Yehoshua he is a Quickening Spirit.

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

G1085
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; “kin” (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.

Offspring here in my opinion should have been “nation” – as in “Spiritual Commonwealth” - this commonwealth knows no bloodlines. Yet bloodlines are important if one is to truly comprehend who is who in scripture – Watchman – Howl O’ Ye Watchman.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

G2227
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
G4151
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Given the foregoing is it possible that God is absent a Soul? Man has a Soul; but is it possible that God is absent a Soul? We read over and over in Old Covenant about the Angel of Yehovah. Might that be the “Presence of Yehovah”? – Yehoshua. Remember Melchizedek met Abraham. King of Righteousness. There is only one. And Abraham tithed to him.

If the foregoing is true then Yehoshua was absent Soul; and was a Quickening Spirit. The first Adam was fashioned from the dust and then Yehovah breathed into him and Adam became a living Soul. Therefore Soul/Spirit are connected in man.


1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

“was made” is added and not in the manuscripts.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The Second “Eth-ha-aw-dawm” is Yehovah from heaven!

And just as Abraham did not grant a “Bill of Divorcement” to Hagar, the bond woman, Yehovah did not grant a bill of divorcement to Torah. Torah shall always be.

Paul knew Torah he was a student of students – he could orally recite the entire Torah which was a prerequisite to attending school under Gamaliel.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Some will be alive when the Soul/Spirit body steps sheds the Flesh Temple.


1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


This corruptible = Flesh [earthly]

Incorruption = Soul/Spirit [Heavenly]

Yet some Living Souls with their intellect, Spirit, are still subject to die – as these are still Dead – remember Ezekiel 44:25? Yet other Souls with their intellect, Spirit, are not subject to death as these have been justified in previous Age.

As such some Souls are still mortal to die at the Last day. And it is only God that can kill the Soul. Remember:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Therefore some Souls shall not see death – because:

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

God is Spirit therefore:

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Yet those who attend to the Mystery Religions like to give Yehovah an Escort – Ashtoreh as she is called in disgust by Yehovah at Jeremiah 44 – The Queen of Heaven – She is also called Ishtar – as in the abomination – Easter.

Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Okay, I am way off on a tangent now. I digress.

Mary could not touch the resurrected body because of Ezekiel 44:25.

Torah is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The sons of Zadok – to Election shall:

Eze 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.


Yehovah be praised forever and ever.

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:


Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Is not God sufficient? All in All?

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Psa 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

Jer 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

Jer 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.


shalom,
mj

[Michael Joseph]

Notice that the Levitical Priests carried the Ark of the Covenant upon their shoulders. What is on your shoulders? Is it your head? Yehoshuah sitting down on the RIGHT side of the Father. Examine your Brain. The Right side controls spiritual or mental processes the Left side controls flesh processes. Yehoshuah told the disciples - fish out of the Right side of the boat.


Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The true Hebrew [Eber] crossing over - overcoming the Flesh Man - and the Spiritual Man controls. The Central Nervous System - remember the Garden - closes the Spiritual Eyes and opens the Physical Eyes. Here is one who has trained his Spiritual Eyes and was given his Physical Eyes:

Mar 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.

Mar 8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

[Wow, look at that. Yet, he is still absent use of his Physical Eyes]

Mar 8:25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

-----

There was one Tree in the Garden walking and talking and engaging as many who would.

His mission to destroy as many "cedars of Lebanon" [Yisra'el] as possible. By flattery people. He comes in with prosperity and wealth - a great revival - Jesus is back....

Do you have the Key of David - Yehoshuah comes out of Nathan - NOT Solomon. But oh how they love to talk about Solomon's Gold and his heirs.

To those, I say "Leave me in the field working - I will gladly be left behind." But alas, I digress as I have wondered into the Parable of the Fig Tree. Maybe we can explore that some as well.

[Frederick Burrell]

I have always read that the right side was the spiritual, intuitive, creative side and the left side was the mental side, home to the ego, but perhaps they have revised their understanding. But some great points in regards the right and left brain and which side of the boat to fish out of . Frederick Burrell

[Michael Joseph]

Thank you Frederick Burrell.

----

The Name of the Ever Living Self Existing One is "Yod He Vav [or Waw] He" - anglosized "Jehovah"; however the "J" is only 550 +/- years old so go figure.

In ancient hebrew before the Paleo - the Yod is thought to be male, the Vav is thought to be female and the He is a ladder. The He-He is a double ladder - DNA.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God? Jachin and Boaz were both exactly 23 cubits tall ==? 23 + 23 = 46 as in chromosomes.

Think the ancients did not know of the body and its chemistry? The outer court is the cell membrane, the inner court is where the nucleus is located and within the inner court is kept the code - Torah - or in man - DNA. The book of the law.

Go now to Genesis 3 and count the number of words that the "Ha Satan" spoke to Eve.....it is 46 as Ha Satan made two attacks on the bloodline of the Adam or in the Hebrew "ethhaawdawm" once by sexual affair with Eve [fathering Cain] and 2nd by Angels see Gen 6 and Enoch 6.

And the Psalmist wrote: They intend to defile my secret place - DNA. Ever hear of "stem cells" - or cloning or Monsanto corrupting the "genes" - DNA?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:

Eze 13:20 Wherefore thus saith Yehovah Elohiym; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Rapture Doctrine is Trite Nonsense. If anyone here wants to pick up that argument - I say bring it on. Lets get it on and lets explore that argument before this assembly.

-----

As above so below as Yehoshuah said in the Great Book of Thomas [the Twin] "the kingdom of heaven is within and without".

You might be as Abram on the plains looking up to the heavens or you might be as Leonardo Da Vinci - who dissected hundreds of bodies to find the secrets within. I am reminded of the man who looks at the pyramid and is asked "what's missing?" Like hundreds of other he says the capstone. Which is only partly correct. As above so below. The complete answer is also the void within for the Kings Chamber. As above so below.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

You know, its interesting, no matter what culture in the world you might encounter, they ALL have the same names for the constellations. It is my contention that Yehovah named the Constellations and gave those names to man. The Magi looking up as Abram for His star that was foretold in Numbers and made known by Daniel.


Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

Judah carries the Sign of Leo - the Lion - the Star coming out of Leo. The Magi reporting "we saw your Star". The plan being written in the Heavens - for signs and seasons.

Sheth is a horrible translation - should be "Confusion or Babel". Who are the Children of Confusion or Babel - the Sons of Cain - Kenites. The offspring of Ha Satan - the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Num 24:21 And he looked on the Kenites, and took up his parable, and said, Strong is thy dwellingplace, and thou puttest thy nest in a rock.

[they run the Religions, Political, Educational, and Commercial powers in this world - go downtown and look up - you will find them at the Top of the big skyscrapers - Yet these pick up the Resulting Trust at Jeremiah 35 - because Yisra'el abandoned the Covenant]

Num 24:22 Nevertheless the Kenite shall be wasted, until Asshur shall carry thee away captive.

Num 24:23 And he took up his parable, and said, Alas, who shall live when God doeth this!

Num 24:24 And ships shall come from the coast of Chittim, and shall afflict Asshur, and shall afflict Eber, and he also shall perish for ever.


Yet the Elect of Yehovah will stand and Bruise the Fake Jesus - these are the Bruisers - the ships of Chittim : and Asshur being a type for [the] in the stead of Christ.

The Kennites are in the game for keeps; they believe their father can win the day. In that day:

Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

[Yisra'el can lay down in peace]

And the Nephilim - the angles who are held in darkness - See Enoch 6, Gen 6, Jude, Peter: shall say:

Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

The Kenites keep the Word of their father and they work to promote the Great Work. The Tares as it were. For they come from the same mother.

Isa 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

Thus sayeth Yehovah Sabaoth: the Kennite shall be utterly spoiled.

[For they are as parasites to Judah. They moved in with Judah and claim to be of Judah but they do lie. And Yehoshuah was well pleased with those who teach the truth concerning the house of the Kenite.]

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

[Frederick Burrell]

"Rapture Doctrine is Trite Nonsense. If anyone here wants to pick up that argument - I say bring it on. Lets get it on and lets explore that argument before this assembly" Michael Joseph

You will get no argument from me.....

But I feel that just as there has been a time of forgetfulness there will be a time of remembering. RE-Activation of our DNA. Your Thought Joseph Michael would be most welcome. Frederick Burrell

[Michael Joseph]

"Rapture Doctrine is Trite Nonsense. If anyone here wants to pick up that argument - I say bring it on. Lets get it on and lets explore that argument before this assembly" Michael Joseph

You will get no argument from me.....

But I feel that just as there has been a time of forgetfulness there will be a time of remembering. RE-Activation of our DNA. Your Thought Joseph Michael would be most welcome. Frederick Burrell

Thank you Frederick Burrell. Please elaborate. Do you want to discuss vibrations/frequencies in regard to DNA or do you want to delve into the fallacy of Rapture Doctrine?

Granted this discussion has as its basis the Masoretic and the Septuagint Texts. Should you desire we can go into Quantum Mechanics and explore dimensions in relation to frequency. Yet, I think if you want to discuss Quantum Physics and God then we will need to start a new thread.

Thank you for engaging.

Shalom,
mj

[Axe]

Hey everybody,

MJ, I find your assertions stimulating, and I have no desire to "force my point of view" onto you or anyone else I do find it necessary to refute some of what you say. Not for the purpose of "arguing", but because I feel that those reading this in the future may be influenced, I believe incorrectly.

I'm surprised at how far you have to reach in order to make your case for the serpent seed doctrine. I like to keep it simple. Maybe that makes me simple minded, maybe not. I believe the truth is always simple.

It is the enemy of truth that must be complicated. First, I want to talk about "context". Specifically "proximity context". When interpreting the Holy Scriptures it's everything. It simply means that one has to consider the immediate proximity of language around whatever is in question.

This will always take precedence over any implied meanings taken from further away.

The word "tree" is used similarly throughout the chapter in question. The Hebrew as well. The tree of life: The tree of knowledge of good and evil.

You can't have it both ways. Either both were really trees, or both were really something else. And don't forget about all the other "trees" in the garden.

There is only one logical answer.

And there were no other "people" as you assert in the garden or in creation.

Male and Female He created them. Them is plural because that is the correct vernacular when talking about "male and female", not, I believe because there were "others" apart from Adam and Eve. Again, context.

And there is a bloodline for Cain; Gen 4:17. And the answer to your direct question is right there in Gen 4:1. Adam is his father. Nuff said about that.

I could go on and on, but I found a great piece which I will paste below. Mostly because I don't want to plagiarize the guy, even by accident.

--

Two additional distinguishing and erroneous doctrines of the Shepherd's Chapel are known as the Serpent Seed doctrine and the Kenite doctrine. The two are intimately related. The Serpent Seed doctrine is the teaching that in the Garden of Eden, the serpent (the devil) had sexual relations with Eve. The result was that she bore Cain. The descendents of Cain are called Kenites. Abel, however, is the result of Adam and Eve having relations.

Arnold Murray, the pastor of the Shepherd's Chapel, is the primary advocate of these doctrines which he adamantly teaches and which his followers have adopted as biblical truth. Mr. Murray states,

"When you look for the in-depth meaning of "men as trees, walking", you are able to see that Christ wants us to understand there are plantings of God and plantings of the devil. The plantings of that wicked one began in the garden of Eden with the conception of Cain and follow down through his progeny, the Kenites."
(Newsletter #195, Jan 1995. See also, #202, August 1995).

The Kenites, according to Mr. Murray, must be exposed. "We must continue to teach who the Kenites are," says Mr. Murray, (Newsletter #190, August 1994). He states that the Kenites survived the flood (he denies the global flood) and are found in the lineage of Israel, not Judah, (Newsletter #179, Sept. 1993). Eventually, the Kenites permeated the nation of Israel and are the ones who shouted "Crucify Him," in reference to Jesus, (Newsletter #179, Sept. 1993).

In an attempt at biblical support, on his website at Answers to Critics, Mr. Murray states:

"In Gen. 3:15 God is speaking to the serpent, 'and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise his heel.'"

Mr. Murray infers that when God says "thy seed" to Satan, He is referring to the Kenites, the descendents of Cain which were produced through the literal "seed" of Satan.

Mr. Murray is wrong. We do not really know exactly what form Satan was in the Garden, though I will submit to God's word and affirm it was a serpent of some sort. Now the Hebrew word used there is "nachash" and it means "serpent" or "snake." If we take the word literally as snake, then Mr. Murray would be forced to explain how a literal snake could have sexual intercourse with Eve.

If Mr. Murray were to acknowledge the potential of a figurative usage of the term here, then he needs to explain why the term "serpent" would be figurative and the term "seed" would be literal. Furthermore, if the serpent were Satan in a different form, and Eve spoke to the serpent, then did Eve have sex with a snake or with a different form of the snake; that is, did the snake change into another more apropos form to consummate his deception?

If so, wouldn't Eve have been suspicious of a talking snake that changes form into something else with which she then agrees to have sexual intercourse? As you can see, the issue, from Mr. Murray's perspective, is wrought with problems.

Nevertheless, his entire position on the Serpent Seed doctrine is easily refuted when we examine Gen. 4:1:

"Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, 'I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.'"

We can see that the Bible clearly tells us who the Father of Cain is: Adam. The Serpent Seed idea is proven wrong.

In addition, it is more natural to attribute the term "seed" in Gen. 3:15 as a reference to the spiritual decedents of Satan, not his literal ones. We can see that being a true spiritual descendent is by faith, not by biology. Consider the following verses which speak of spiritual identification.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God," (Rom. 2:28-29).

"For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God," (Rom. 8:14).

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him," (Rom. 8:16-17).

"That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants," (Rom. 9:8).

Clearly, being a descendent has a spiritual quality. Likewise, Satan's descendents are those who identify with him in his lies. This is why Jesus said in John 8:44 to the Pharisees,

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies."

In addition, "seed" is also referred to as the word of God (Matt. 13:18-23; Luke 8:11; 1 Pet. 1:23) and as the spiritual life in (1 John 3:9). The whole flavor of spiritual identification with God is included in terms of being the offspring of God (Gal. 3:29; Acts 17:28) and the children of God (Rom. 8:16-17).

Consider 1 John 3:9 which says, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Obviously, the Christian does not contain the literal seed of God in him. Seed here, must refer to a spiritual element of indwelling, of ideology, and of faith.

That is why the Christian does not practice sin. It is against his beliefs and confession before God and man. Therefore, God's seed abides in the Christian, but it isn't literal seed, it is a reference to spiritual identification.
Us against Them

The Serpent Seed doctrine is an unscriptural and unfortunate teaching. From it is derived an "us against them" mentality in which anyone who disagrees with Mr. Murray can easily be accused of being a Kenite. This is obvious in some of his quotes:

"How many today are teaching from a quarterly written by a Kenite, rather than teaching from God's Word? (Newsletter #193, Nov. 1994).

How can we sum this up? If you are doing God's will, don't worry about criticism from others. "Well, Pastor Murray they say we are a cult." Who cares what they say? God is on our side. Victory is a certainty. Does it ever seem like the enemy is winning?

Anytime you get to feeling this way, turn to Psalms 9. This Psalm tells us what we should be earnestly expecting. Keep the meaning of "apokaradokia" in mind as we read this Psalm. (Newsletter #229 - November 1997).

Of course, if you study with him you are not being deceived, but if you are studying elsewhere, you're studying with a Kenite or siding with the enemy. Such are the machinations of this leader who teaches false doctrines.

Taken from: http://carm.org/serpent-seed-and-kenites

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Thank you for starting this thread. The discussion is welcome and has prompted me to increase the volume of my own study as well.

Kindly,

T.

[Axe]

Oh and more on the "people before Adam and Eve" thing:

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:45, “And so it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being.’” This passage very clearly affirms that Adam was “the first man.” Physically, he was the father of all living, just as, spiritually, Christ, “the last Adam,” is the originator of our spiritual lives (15:45-49).

Another New Testament passage also supports this proposition. In Acts 17:24-26 Paul says to the Athenians, “God, who made the world and everything in it...has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth…” If God, in the beginning, had created other humans besides just Adam and Eve then Paul’s statement would be incorrect. Indeed, we would be descendants not of “one blood” but of “many bloods.” Yet, that was not what Paul believed or taught to the Corinthians or Athenians.

Great article here: http://www.kokomochurch.com/Study%20...ansCreated.htm

Kindly,

T.

[Frederick Burrell]

Thank you Frederick Burrell. Please elaborate. Do you want to discuss vibrations/frequencies in regard to DNA or do you want to delve into the fallacy of Rapture Doctrine?

Granted this discussion has as its basis the Masoretic and the Septuagint Texts. Should you desire we can go into Quantum Mechanics and explore dimensions in relation to frequency. Yet, I think if you want to discuss Quantum Physics and God then we will need to start a new thread.

Thank you for engaging.

Shalom,
mj

Yes perhaps another thread would be appropriate. I was thinking more along the lines of energies coming into the planets and how it effects our DNA and consciousness. But perhaps another time or should I say thread. I thought is relative in regards to the conversation in regards to rapture. frederick burrell

[Michael Joseph]

Oh and more on the "people before Adam and Eve" thing:

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:45, “And so it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being.’” This passage very clearly affirms that Adam was “the first man.” Physically, he was the father of all living, just as, spiritually, Christ, “the last Adam,” is the originator of our spiritual lives (15:45-49).

Another New Testament passage also supports this proposition. In Acts 17:24-26 Paul says to the Athenians, “God, who made the world and everything in it...has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth…” If God, in the beginning, had created other humans besides just Adam and Eve then Paul’s statement would be incorrect. Indeed, we would be descendants not of “one blood” but of “many bloods.” Yet, that was not what Paul believed or taught to the Corinthians or Athenians.

Great article here: http://www.kokomochurch.com/Study%20...ansCreated.htm

Kindly,

T.

Regarding your latter post, Paul writes the First "Eth-ha-aw-dawm" - man in Garden. Remember there are two.

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Dear reader, take a very close look at the study provided, go to the Hebrew provided - Eth-ha-aw-dawm is different. The English has been twisted to confuse [babel]. Eth-ha-aw-dawm is emphatically THE MAN - why is this so hard for people to see? Why do you think Nehemiah was Furious when Yisra'el started mixing [inbreeding] with other races? The Bloodline to Yehoshuah had to be PURE. That's why. Why do you think it took Noah 500 years to find a wife? Because he was faithful to find one who was from Eth-ha-aw-dawm's loins - undefiled by other races and Angelic DNA. Well now, dear reader, if we all sprang from one man - why in the heck would it matter in regard to blood-lines? This is so obvious it strains my mind to even write these words. But for some reason men are content with their traditions.

And the Scripture is about One Man - Yehoshuah - and it is His-Story. Yehovah Saves.

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Remember at Gen 1:27 - He created Him in his own image. Yehovah made Yehoshuah in his own image - If you have seen the Son you have seen the Father.

The Cut/Paste from the internet does not get it with me. Gen 4:1 also in no way is Eth-ha-aw-dawm's geneology.

Clearly a student/scholar of Scripture does not REACH - a Scholar presents many, many examples in Yehovah's Word - I just picked a Sampling of Many verses that support the assertion. I could have picked many, many more.

I leave it to the reader to make up their own mind. After reading this so called Christian site - I too deny a world wide flood as it does not conform with the rest of the Story.

I think the study attached speaks for itself.

The Garden.pdf

However should you decide to produce a Study of your own that can actually support your claims, I for one shall be glad to entertain it.


Axe: I know you have good intentions in joining this discussion; however consider the "one blood" is NOT of Eth-ha-aw-dawm: It is of Yehoshuah - the Blood of Atonement - so that all nations can enjoin in the Commonwealth of Yisra'el. He told Peter: Slay and eat - Call no man Common.

G129
αἷμα
aima
hah'ee-mah
Of uncertain derivation; blood, literally (of men or animals), figuratively (the juice of grapes) or specifically (the atoning blood of Christ); by implication bloodshed, also kindred: - blood.


Going to Scripture so that the Reader will not be confused by Claims:

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.


If your assertion is correct then we should live in Eth-ha-aw-dawm [the first Adam] for we are his offspring. How absurdly ridiculous. We are to live move and have our being in Yehoshuah - the Second Eth-ha-aw-dawm [Adam].

I think the readers can see thru this smoke an mirror job from some group called CARM. After checking up this morning on this Murray guy he seems okay with me - but why should that matter - my opinion does not mean a hill of beans - what matters is the opinion of the dear reader.

If you are one who is swayed by Titles such as Pastor or Doctor and you put your trust in man's titles in stead of doing the work yourself in the Word, then you like all of the other good little fishies, may be found wanting like the five virgins Matthew 25. The Son's of Cain are upon the Great Work they do intend to "Slay the good llittle Christian fishies - as many as they can - spiritually murdering them with 1/2 truths and false doctrine - do your own work and build your own foundation on the Rock. And in fact it is Ephraim himself a symbolic name for the ten tribes who delivers his children up freely to the slayer.

Hos 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.


Murderer of Souls. Be careful dear reader where you find your information. If you cannot support your doctrine in multiple places in Yehovah's word, then it is false.

Again, I leave it to the reader to decide.

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