Non-Christian Historical Evidence for the Existence of Jesus

[Michael Joseph]

We serve the same Christ we just see it from a different point of view. Some are awaiting a future event others seek Christ now. Both will be satisfied. I care not for the futurism as it leads to oppression today. When this message hits the streets in mass the Church Business Plan will go bankrupt.

Let it be.

This "I'm just a pilgrim passing thru mentality is for the birds", in my opinion. It allows folks to just treat this place as a waste land. Look around.

Until then here is a cup of tea for the tillerman.

"Bring tea for the tillerman, steak for the sun
Wine for the women who made the rain come
Seagulls sing your hearts away
'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play

Oh Lord, how they play and play
For that happy day, for that happy day"

Cat Stevens - Tea For The Tillerman


23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

may Christ be formed in all of us.

Gal_4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Our bed is Green sayeth the Shulamite woman.

Yes indeed xparte, all men and women require salvation. Isn't it HIGH TIME we move on past the baby milk of salvation. St. Paul made that request 2000 years ago.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Who can hear?

Shalom,
MJ

[doug555]

We serve the same Christ we just see it from a different point of view.

Lest others misunderstand, or assume that I agree with the above, for the record, I strongly disagree with that assertion/presumption.

See: http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseact...nism-Today.htm

Unfortunately, it is in the context of syncretism that Nicolas is last mentioned in the post-biblical, historical record. Both Irenaeus (Against Heresies 1.26.3; 3.10.6) and Clement of Alexandria (Miscellanies, 3.4.25f) consider Nicolas of Antioch to be the founder of the Gnostic sect known as the Nicolaitans. Another early writer, Hippolytus, adds that Nicolas "departed from sound doctrine, and was in the habit of inculcating indifferency of both life and food" (Refutation of All Heresies, 7.24), meaning he taught the Gnostic belief of the irrelevance of physical things.

Rev 2:6

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

The Christ I serve hates Gnosticism.

Do not misunderstand. Christ does not hate Gnostics. He hates the works of the Gnostics.

So do I, for good cause.

[BLBereans]

The Christ I serve hates Gnosticism.

Do not misunderstand. Christ does not hate Gnostics. He hates the works of the Gnostics.

So do I, for good cause.

Here, Here!!!

I second that motion.

[xparte]

[allodial]

1 Tim 6:20-21
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"- 21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.

The impression that I get is that the "...worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called 'knowledge'" is a type of dust.

***



The Nicolaitans & co. seem to love the Mosaic paradigm, they love holding people in probation and standing as a middleman. (Sadly, some people prefer that kind of indirect access.) They don't even see the Mosaic period for what it was--it had its purpose and its place this is clear. Perhaps they have a penchant for lording over others and acting as middle men and collecting fees for access to...??? Much of the Western industrial and financial system shows a penchant for standing in between people and their birthright. Gee, what a coincidence. The Nicolaitan's & and their cohorts don't discuss the Tabernacle of David (dare not even mention it)--why is that? With the Tabernacle of David access was possible 24/7 and the restrictions that were applicable to the Tabernacle of Moses were not take place. David is said to have been ahead of his time, he saw were God was pointing--he saw God's plan.

Given the choice: pyramid schemes vs. direct-to-source, what would any of you prefer? Of course the tabernacles were helps as one sets forth "...into His marvelous light". This is made clear.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. 1 Peter 2:9

So clearly the believer is made aware of a great and wonderful discovery awaits, there is worthy knowledge to be had and gained as part the relationship and walk with God. It is God's plan of salvation that restores each believer and puts them in a place of access to true knowledge and wisdom--rather than having to feast on dust.

The Nicolaitan types might love or prefer worship in "high places" and keeping God far off and out of reach as possible. What a coincidence. Maybe God was against high places worship because it was completely contrary to his plan. His plan wasn't to be an afar off God from what I gather.

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matthew 27:50-53

Who would be so "courteous" and "kind" as to sew the temple veil back together but Gnostics or Nicolaitans (i.e. Gnostics)? The Adversary it seems doesn't want God accessible to anyone and has many thinking they would be doing God a favor when they are really working to abate the presence of God from the entire planet (the Adversary wants true believers blamed and destroyed because his goal is to shut God out completely from access--the promotion of gross carnality and vileness is held out as "freedom" and "rights" and the Adversary's true purpose is concealed from the pawns who lend support.)

[Michael Joseph]

The Christ I serve hates Gnosticism.

Do not misunderstand. Christ does not hate Gnostics. He hates the works of the Gnostics.

So do I, for good cause.

What are the works of the Gnostics?

[Onlashuk]

[doug555]

What are the works of the Gnostics?

Glad you asked...

Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part One: False Knowledge

Paul warns Timothy about "the subtleties and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination." The word translated "knowledge" in most translations ("science" in the King James Version) is the Greek gnosis. Literally meaning "to know," it forms the root of the word Gnosticism. It is possible, even probable, that Paul refers to Gnosticism here, since both of his letters to Timothy contain warnings against false teachers bringing in foreign concepts that were undermining the faith of church members.

Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part Two: Defining Gnosticism

Whatever Happened to Gnosticism? Part Three: Satan's Three Heresies

These three heresies, each subtly undercutting God's truth and plan for mankind, have been recycled since Creation, effectively continuing the separation from God begun in the Garden of Eden. Certainly, Gnosticism incorporates these foundational falsehoods, but they also exist in every anti-God system of belief, organized or not.

An area where the wrong approach to knowledge becomes apparent is in love toward God and toward fellow man, and especially toward our brethren and families. The Gnostics tended to disdain those who were not as "enlightened" as they were. Knowledge and understanding were their currency, and they assigned value to people based on what they knew, a practice completely contrary to God's way of outgoing concern.

Nicolaitanism Today

Unfortunately, it is in the context of syncretism that Nicolas is last mentioned in the post-biblical, historical record. Both Irenaeus (Against Heresies 1.26.3; 3.10.6) and Clement of Alexandria (Miscellanies, 3.4.25f) consider Nicolas of Antioch to be the founder of the Gnostic sect known as the Nicolaitans. Another early writer, Hippolytus, adds that Nicolas "departed from sound doctrine, and was in the habit of inculcating indifferency of both life and food" (Refutation of All Heresies, 7.24), meaning he taught the Gnostic belief of the irrelevance of physical things.

Now, let me define "works of the Gnostics": the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge (gnosis) of Good and Evil - Death - for about 6000 years of man's recorded history.

Can it be any clearer?

[BLBereans]

Is it me, or is there is something eerily familiar about all that...???

[george]

interesting topic..

IMO the situation is FUBAR though because all we really have to work with is hearsay when you get right down to it.

I find the "non-christian historical evidence" just as suspect as the not non. and the gnostics, the hindus, the druids or even the spagettimonsterites. ALL Suspect!

but some things just seem to make sense and if there is any truth AT ALL it seems to have a nice ring to it but what is nice to some is not for others so here we are.

nothing is absolute and nothing is absolute and nothing is absolute. know what I mean?

[Michael Joseph]

Since many have gone off on this rabbit trail of Gnosticism, please, pray tell where I ever said that Salvation was by works?

Furthermore, the Bible itself declares that we should diligently seek after knowledge and wisdom, does it not?

and; Furthermore, Jesus Himself declared that His disciples would be about His works and would do greater works then He.

And yet, when working or diligently seeking knowledge is mentioned in ANY religious circle for some odd reason, which I can't understand, those who feel threatened the most resort to calling names. It seems to me that the only reason Gnosticism was ever a threat to the established religion was that it threatened their concept of doing nothing but believing that a savior exists.

Some of that John 3:16 bull dung. How about we check out that word believe - it means to entrust or place ones trust. Jesus commanded that we do much more than just place our trust in The Word [John 1:1]; He commanded us to obey [works]. Something about having no works is death rings a bell. Ding....Ding.... Yes indeed, there it is Faith absent Deeds is dead. But don't threaten our precious concept of Salvation - Ephesians and all - it is a free undeserved gift.

This would be funny to me if it was not so sad. Nobody is saying that one can work to earn Salvation - nevertheless where is the worker in the field? "Who will go for us" was the question from the throne. Be careful worker, many will try to put false labels upon you calling you all sorts of nasty names like "A Knower" - so thank you to those who would call me a Gnostic - that really makes me laugh.

For the Holy Spirit thru St. Paul so adeptly wrote thru Her Wisdom - Rom_10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Gee, I wonder why the Holy Spirit would feel compelled to issue that statement? Especially when the Proverbs and so many other places command that we gain Knowledge of God. In fact in the great book of Hosea [Salvation] we find:

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Pro 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

Pro 1:7 The reverence of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.


Yes, the flesh does lead to death. Thank you for finally coming to the Light. But the allegorical light of the Spirit which is couched in the Fleshly things leads to Life.

I suppose I shall do it again: Christ JESUS and Jesus CHRIST are two terms which do not mean the same thing in terms of usage by the latter day writers. St. Paul is very clear but who can see? These two show that Christ condescended into the Flesh [John 1:1] and was put on trial, beaten, and put to death. So look around you today. The Word has been put on trial, portions of been removed [the gambled for his clothes] and eventually killed as the keys of KNOWLEDGE have been removed. The Word has been placed in a rich man's tomb [the Church]. And who can deny this is not the Church system of religion which holds the Word entombed? Look at all the fancy robes and the ornate buildings. Entombed is a kind way of saying it.

And yet the truth remains concealed all along and men go to and fro with their vain rites and traditions thinking themselves to be holy. Nevertheless when it turns to the Lord the veil will be removed and the Church will be out of a job. I wonder when it turns to the Lord who will issue forth to DO THE WORK? They had best have thick skin because many in their blindness will call names and throw stones.

For when it turns to the Lord, then the entombed Word shall resurrect to life which is to say Jesus CHRIST.

Furthermore, I would be careful about the use of the term disdain others. Jesus Himself had his closed society. There are many things that cannot be discussed candidly. Not to call names, that is not the point, but to point out that not all matters can be discussed openly. The Bible is very clear on this matter. For those who eat at "strong meat" are not to do so in front of their brethren still sipping on the milk nipple. I can see however how a "pew sitter" might feel disdain from another who refused to allow him to come to their "assembly".

For instance St. Paul desired greatly to discuss Melchizedok and the two Cheribim, but declaring that the "milk sippers" were not ready for such strong meat. What is new under the sun?


Nevertheless, pride is a terrible aspect of our carnal existence. So let me set the record straight. I left salvation about one hundred miles ago. Pressing on past that now there are other things to KNOW and there are other WORKS to do. Sitting at the feet of my Mother [Proverbs 31] in submission to the Holy Spirit - for she commanded his servants saying do as He says- John 2.

What a privilege to be useful to the King - Amen. If I place my trust in you, then I freely subject myself to your rule. The only logical question left is what would you have me to do? Upon what estate should I occupy? Therefore Jesus taught us how to open up the gate of communication with God - TO DAY - and yet in ignorance the world remains WILLINGLY blind awaiting their destruction.

I can't find anywhere where Jesus promoted religion. His gospel was "The Kingdom of God is at hand".

Some prefer the "Love Letter" and others seek diligently after the "face to face embrace".

Desolation Row


Shalom,
MJ

[doug555]

...

Yes, the flesh does lead to death. Thank you for finally coming to the Light.

You misquote... I never said that.

I said "the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge (gnosis) of Good and Evil" causes death, just as Gen 2:17 says.

Gnostics believe the physical flesh is evil, which is just the opposite of what the Creator says in Gen 1:31,

"And God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good."

Satan is the author of the "flesh is evil" and "sex is shameful" constructs, which cause separation of man from himself and his mate (the attack on marriage).

Satan is also the author of the "man is gullible" (intellectually shameful) construct, which causes separation of man from his Creator (the attack on religion).

Don't confuse pure religion (Js 1:27) with perverted religion (pantheism, gnosticism, mysticism, syncretism, existentialism, syncretism, etc.).

Satan has succeeded in destroying the original intent and meaning of both of these words, religion and marriage. That campaign started in Eden, as should be obvious.

Christ promoted the religion of the Will of God, as depicted by the Seven Annual Holydays, which He observed during His lifetime.

The "Lord's Prayer" is modeled after these SEVEN BIG MILESTONE EVENTS that bring the Kingdom of God to earth.

When Holyday 2 occurs, it will provide the most stunning "Non-Christian Historical Evidence for the Existence of Jesus"!

[BLBereans]

Reasons to Believe

[allodial]

The five husbands of the Samaritan woman are explained at 2 Kings 17:29-33. How can you have five senses as your husband but yet "know not what ye worship"? "Ye" is plural.

Five People, Five Gods
When the original inhabitants of Samaria were exiled from their land by Shalmaneser, the Assyrian king, sent people from five different places in Babylon, each group with its own god, to inhabit the land of Samaria. The Jews who were left in Samaria intermarried with these people and incorporated the worship of their gods into the worship of Jehovah. Read 2 Kings 17:29-33.

{Can you imagine someone worshiping the "moon principle" and the "sun principle" but rejecting God as a an intelligent being altogether?}

• Succothbenoth - meant booths of daughters or prostitutes.
• Nergal - means 'dunghill cock' (symbol of a hero worshipped) or meant "hero" -- one of the chief Assyrian and Babylonian deities, seems to have corresponded closely to the classical Mars. ( 2 Kings 17:30 ) It is conjectured that he may represent the deified Nimrod.
• Ashima - means crime; offense. (Hindu/Sanskrit - Without borders; Limitless).Also may refer to a particular river. was the god of Hamath, worshipped under the image of an ape or a goat with no fur.
• Nibhaz was a dog, representing a demon. Tartak was a jackass, representing the prince of darkness. Both were probably made of gold.
• Adrammelech was the sun god, in the form of a man. Anammelech was the moon god with the representation of a woman. They were images of Molech, to whom men and women offered their own children as sacrifices in fire.

None of those words had any specific relation to worship of the five senses. The five husbands = five senses is without foundation.

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St. John's Gospel Described and Explained Volume 2 by Christoph Ernst Luthardt - Page 63

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Discourses and Sayings of Our Lord Jesus Christ by John Brown - Page 70 footnote.

The five husbands was a reference to idol worship. The sixth husband was reference to the Samaritans not having properly been 'evangelized' into Israel. The Samaritans were known for claiming to be Jews while not being so. The Gnostic claiming "five husbands" = "five senses" is baseless. Husband is a word that refers to one who protects an asset or assets. The Temple was still standing at the time.

Simon {Magus} was the Samaritan Josephus, a Jewish historian of the first century, mentions that Samaritans would falsely claim to be Jews when they thought it was to their advantage to do so (Antiquities of the Jews, 9.14.3; 9.8.6). (Source)

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In the early portion his Book VI of the Refutation of All Heresies, Hippolytus deals with the reported writings of Simon from a book called Megale Apophasis, or the Great Announcement.[14] Using Justin as his source, Hippolytus states that Simon was from the village of Gitta in Samaria. However, unlike in Irenaeus, Simon is characterized by Hippolytus as trying to explain the mysteries of the law of Moses, and incorporating them into his own doctrines.Simon was claiming to be the Father, the one true God. (Source)

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Related:

• Simon the Magician
• The Samaritans
• Just What Is the Synagogue of Satan?

[xparte]