A regular deposit of lawful money.

[RThomas]

of

[David Merrill]

And along the way, keep insightful people nearby, and keep them talking.


Thank you RThomas.

[Treefarmer]

of

Got paid by bank check for a raft trip I ran last week.
I'm trying out the new verbiage on it.
I'm writing it in above my stamped "Redeemed for lawful money pursuant 12 USC 411, True Name, dba LEGAL NAME" verbiage.
I'm keeping a copy of it for evidence.
I've noticed that our bank tellers never look at the back of the checks we present to them, almost as if they don't want to see what it says there.

[RThomas]

Got paid by bank check for a raft trip I ran last week.
I'm trying out the new verbiage on it.
I'm writing it in above my stamped "Redeemed for lawful money pursuant 12 USC 411, True Name, dba LEGAL NAME" verbiage.
I'm keeping a copy of it for evidence.
I've noticed that our bank tellers never look at the back of the checks we present to them, almost as if they don't want to see what it says there.

I doubt what you are proposing to do will work. It serves no purpose to rebut the presumption that you are a banker and then cite law that is based on the presumption that you are an agent of the Federal Reserve. I think more study is required before anyone attempts this. After having spent more time thinking this through, I now retract the statement of this being non-confrontational.

[Treefarmer]

I doubt what you are proposing to do will work. It serves no purpose to rebut the presumption that you are a banker and then cite law that is based on the presumption that you are an agent of the Federal Reserve. I think more study is required before anyone attempts this. After having spent more time thinking this through, I now retract the statement of this being non-confrontational.

So you are saying that citing 12 USC 411 turns me into an agent of the Fed?

[RThomas]

So you are saying that citing 12 USC 411 turns me into an agent of the Fed?

In the manner you are citing it one would be declaring them self to be an agent of the Fed. If one declares his check to be of lawful money, and not a loan which can be replaced with other money then what would one be seeking redemption for? Title 12 @ 411 applies to Federal reserve banks and agents thereof in the purpose of, and redemption for, Federal reserve notes. Why would one re-declare their check to be equivalent to Federal reserve notes and seek redemption after one just declared it to be of lawful money? If one is not a banker then the stated purpose of Federal reserve notes does not apply to them. Citing Title 12 @ 411 for this reason would be useful. Can anyone see a box forming?

[David Merrill]

In the manner you are citing it one would be declaring them self to be an agent of the Fed. If one declares his check to be of lawful money, and not a loan which can be replaced with other money then what would one be seeking redemption for? Title 12 @ 411 applies to Federal reserve banks and agents thereof in the purpose of, and redemption for, Federal reserve notes. Why would one re-declare their check to be equivalent to Federal reserve notes and seek redemption after one just declared it to be of lawful money? If one is not a banker then the stated purpose of Federal reserve notes does not apply to them. Citing Title 12 @ 411 for this reason would be useful. Can anyone see a box forming?

Federal Reserve notes are stock certificates. There are enough of these generated in various denominations so that they are easily traded - currency. Motla68 found a great link - . You as a bank have to buy FRNs, for them to be issued to you. Since 1933 to save the Fed FDR opened this up to everybody as quasi-Fed banks. You buy the FRNs with your labor, your salary checks.

You buy stock in the Fed when you cash your paycheck by endorsing private credit.

You choose not to buy stock in the Fed when you cash your paycheck demanding to redeem lawful money.

If you go with Pete HENDRICKSON's Cracking the Code technique of a Zero Income Return you argue no liability on worn out interpretations of Title 26 (IR Code) after you have already bought Fed stock. If you demand lawful money at the initial transaction, cashing your paycheck therefore, you have refused to do business with the Fed. Now you are just using that note format because it is the only recognized currency and therefore lawful money. It is fully bonded by the obligations of the United States for creating the Fed.

In this description of the contracting I do not see how one can interpret resorting to the Demand provided by law making you an agent of the Fed. You are demanding not to be in agreement with the Fed. If anything you are making the declaration that Congress is your agent, making you the sovereign. That is to say your agent provided the remedy written into the law for you to remain the sovereign.

[motla68]

Why not just say " Lawful Money " without all the encoding?
You could pull it from a legal dictionary and have it mean the same instead of mentioning the 12 @ 411 encoding as a statutory employee or agent in contract would do.

[RThomas]

Federal Reserve notes are stock certificates. There are enough of these generated in various denominations so that they are easily traded - currency. Motla68 found a great link - . You as a bank have to buy FRNs, for them to be issued to you. Since 1933 to save the Fed FDR opened this up to everybody as quasi-Fed banks. You buy the FRNs with your labor, your salary checks.

You buy stock in the Fed when you cash your paycheck by endorsing private credit.

You choose not to buy stock in the Fed when you cash your paycheck demanding to redeem lawful money.

If you go with Pete HENDRICKSON's Cracking the Code technique of a Zero Income Return you argue no liability on worn out interpretations of Title 26 (IR Code) after you have already bought Fed stock. If you demand lawful money at the initial transaction, cashing your paycheck therefore, you have refused to do business with the Fed. Now you are just using that note format because it is the only recognized currency and therefore lawful money. It is fully bonded by the obligations of the United States for creating the Fed.

In this description of the contracting I do not see how one can interpret resorting to the Demand provided by law making you an agent of the Fed. You are demanding not to be in agreement with the Fed. If anything you are making the declaration that Congress is your agent, making you the sovereign. That is to say your agent provided the remedy written into the law for you to remain the sovereign.

Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board
of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making
advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as
hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said
notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable
by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all
taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful
money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the
city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.

Hence the need to properly rebut any presumption one is a bank, stop making loans to banks. Federal reserve notes are lawful money to banks.

[RThomas]

Why not just say " Lawful Money " without all the encoding?
You could pull it from a legal dictionary and have it mean the same instead of mentioning the 12 @ 411 encoding as a statutory employee or agent in contract would do.

That might work depending on the wording, the rebuttal just has to clear.

I am off to go camping through the weekend. Have a good week all. I will try to share more when I return.

[David Merrill]

Endorsement lends the bank credit?

I guess that is what he means. Have a good trip. See you when you return.

[Treefarmer]

Very interesting, thank you all for your thoughtful comments.
After thinking about it some more I can see that it would be odd to call a bank check lawful money and then also demand that it be redeemed in lawful money.

I don't like the idea of being a Fed bank.
And I like the idea of trading my labor for debt on which I have to pay a "return of income" even less, because it tends to impoverish and inconvenience me to an intolerable degree.

Motla68's suggestion has appeal because of it's simplicity. Has anyone tried this approach?

[RThomas]

Woolley vs. City of Natchez (1937)

The amounts deposited stood and remained as a credit to the city, and subject to its withdrawal until actually applied to the payment of the bonds and coupons. It is equally elementary that all deposits in a bank are general unless at the time of making there is a definite, special agreement to the contrary. It is therefore elementary law that the presumption with reference to a bank deposit is that it is general, in the absence of evidence to the contrary.Marine Bank vs. Fulton Bank (1865)

All deposits made with bankers may be divided into two classes, namely, those in which the bank becomes bailee of the depositor, the title to the thing deposited remaining with the latter; and that other kind of deposit of money peculiar to banking business, in which the depositor, for his own convenience, parts with the title to his money, and loans it to the banker; and the latter, in consideration of the loan of the money and the right to use it for his own profit, agrees to refund the same amount, or any part thereof, on demand.Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board
of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making
advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as
hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System shall have the
right, acting through the Federal Reserve agent, to grant in whole or in
part, or to reject entirely the application of any Federal Reserve bank
for Federal Reserve notes; but to the extent that such application may
be granted the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System shall,
through its local Federal Reserve agent, supply Federal Reserve notes to
the banks so applying, and such bank shall be charged with the amount of
the notes issued to it and shall pay such rate of interest as may be
established by the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve system on
only that amount of such notes which equals the total amount of its
outstanding Federal Reserve notes less the amount of gold certificates
held by the Federal Reserve agent as collateral security. Federal
Reserve notes issued to any such bank shall, upon delivery, together
with such notes of such Federal Reserve bank as may be issued under
subchapter XIII \1\ of this chapter upon security of United States 2 per
centum Government bonds,

[[Page 145]]

become a first and paramount lien on all the assets of such bank.
re-deeming

[David Merrill]

That is worth reading several times!

Thank you for your research. What I hear out of it is elastic currency and inelastic currency. US notes cannot be used for reserve currency and there is a fixed amount of notes. Inelastic. There are two different kinds of currency and the bankers and Congress are trying to make them into one kind of currency - faulty metaphysics.

[Treefarmer]

I second that; thank you for your research RThomas.
I'm looking forward to seeing more of it.